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The last season was my least favorite as it felt really rushed and thin and went to a really dark place which was not characteristic of ST (same thing for DS9 for that matter)

It's taken me time to get there, but I've ultimately come to agree with Roddenberry's central principle for the show, which is his very optimistic, even utopian vision for the future or humanity. That's what makes it work for me, and it remains a rare premise for sci-fi. But that's a huge challenge for writers, who need jeopardy, conflict, and tragedy to maintain interest in the story and to make it relatable. On the TNG Blu-Ray extras the writers constantly talk about this tension between the demands of writing a show people actually want to watch and maintaining Roddenberry's vision.

You can still have darkness in this imagined world, but it needs to be conceptualized as bad things happening in a universe that is, on balance, good. Not cartoonishly good, but always hopeful. Many of humanity's major problems have been mostly solved. I think DS9 stays just on the right side of this. TNG is much more positive (probably the most positive Trek?) but has some pretty dark moments. Other shows have not been so successful at doing 'dark' Trek, or fall into more stereotypical Hollywood movie tropes that don't feel like Trek (the reboot movie series is like that for me).

These days entertainment seems to have a particular talent for wallowing in negativity. We suspect anything portrayed in a feel-good way to be some kind of advertisement or propaganda, or just lightweight. And with good reason! But, ultimately, I want something I can watch that allows me to let down my guard and isn't some kind of satire or cynically dystopian commentary. There is plenty of good (and a lot of bad) sci fi that does the latter, but Roddenberry's approach remains quite rare.
 
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The last season (of ENT) was my least favorite as it felt really rushed and thin and went to a really dark place which was not characteristic of ST (same thing for DS9 for that matter) I mean they had to re-write and rush into a 4th season finale instead of getting the planned on 7 - that really messed with everything IMO. I think had they been left alone to continue the franchise, there could have been a lot of neat & interesting story and continued character development for ENT.

Manny Coto, IMO, saved the show with his becoming show runner in S4. But I have heard part of the deal to get Berman and Braga to walk away was that the series would not be renewed for a fifth season regardless of how well S4 did in the ratings. B&B also got the last laugh with the absolutely atrocious finale they wrote. They made sure to give the middle finger to the fans who clamored for them being removed from the franchise.
 
Are you talking about the desert uniforms, like the ones used in Desert Crossing episode? I would have never associated those with the German Wehrmacht.
He is probably referring to the 2 parter, Storm Front, where aliens helped out the Third Reich.
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He is probably referring to the 2 parter, Storm Front, where aliens helped out the Third Reich.
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Oh, I thought it was an ongoing issue with the ENT star fleet uniforms or something like that. So, I am still not sure what would turn someone off to the entire series about the use of German Wehrmacht uniforms in a Sci-fi episode involving time travel to an altered 1944 earth where the Nazi have conquered the eastern US. I mean similar premise have been used before, such as the Man in the High Castle. I am not saying it was a great episode, just not sure what the issue is with the uniforms. Maybe I am taking the post too literally.
 
To be fair, we heard much the same with Deep Space Nine. It wasn't on a starship. The crew never went anywhere in the first two seasons. The Cardassian occupation of Bajor was too uncomfortable a reminder of occupied genocides of Earth's history. And then with the Dominion War Arc we had whole fleets and planets being destroyed with billions dead and the introduction of Section 31, the absolute antithesis of what we were told Starfleet and the Federation stood for. Of course, one of the more well-regarded episodes of Star Trek - "In the Pale Moonlight" - has Sisko taking a page right out of S31's playbook, so...




Indeed. And with Alex Kurtzman's current contract soon to expire there are rumors the new owners of Paramount (Skydance) are not going to renew it. That being said, who do they get to replace him?

The third season of "Picard" made the Nielson Streaming Top 10 under Terry Matalas, but he's now working with Disney+ and Netflix so even if Skydance was interested in making "Star Trek: Legacy" a thing, it might not be possible for years (or it would be made without significant input from Matalas which means it might not be what fans expect).
DS9 got a ton of flack for not feeling like traditional Trek at the time, especially because of its serialized nature. Ironically that was something that turned out to have been rather ahead of its time with the nature of streaming TV these days!

IMHO, the difference in the darker tone of DS9 verses shows like Disco is that DS9 as the show was written—as well as its characters—seemed quite aware that these darker elements are antithetical to the Federation on a kind of meta level. Whereas I feel like newer shows like Disco almost embrace it. The worst offender in this instance was Star Trek Into Darkness which makes the Federation into some sort of evil war obsessed cult!

It may very well be the case that newer Trek shows come to shake their “red headed stepchild” reputation DS9 had in time, but right now I just don’t see it.
 
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DS9 got a ton of flack for not feeling like traditional Trek at the time, especially because of its serialized nature. Ironically that was something that turned out to have been rather ahead of its time with the nature of streaming TV these days!

I would agree. Also, these days I think the situation has reversed - there is so much serialized TV right now that the episodic / ship-in-a-bottle style of storytelling is a bit of a lost art. But that is what made TNG great - one week you get a comedy episode, then next week a character-driven drama, then a mystery, then a romance, then exploration, then a tech-focused one....when they did it right it made for great variety.

I like both styles, but these days the serial format is dominant.

IMHO, the difference in the darker tone of DS9 verses shows like Disco is that DS9 as the show was written—as well as its characters—seemed quite aware that these darker elements are antithetical to the Federation on a kind of meta level. Whereas I feel like newer shows like Disco almost embrace it. The worst offender in this instance was Star Trek Into Darkness which makes the Federation into some sort of evil war obsessed cult!

Yep. As I mentioned previously, bad things happening in a good universe. The Federation made mistakes, and individuals could be corrupted - but the exceptions proved the rule that their core principles were the right ones. These days screenwriters embrace dark elements to the point of nihilism - which is antithetical to the Roddenberry Trek universe. Even the Borg weren't nihilists!
 
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Yep. As I mentioned previously, bad things happening in a good universe. The Federation made mistakes, and individuals could be corrupted - but the exceptions proved the rule that their core principles were the right ones. These days screenwriters embrace dark elements to the point of nihilism - which is antithetical to the Roddenberry Trek universe. Even the Borg weren't nihilists!
Yeah that's the problem I had with Picard 1-2 and Disc. They didn't even try to identify with Star Trek other than the badge, uniform, and ... ships. It would have maybe worked if they called it Star Journeys or whatever...

It was as if... they went to the holodeck and threw out all Star Trek lore and tried to re-write the characters and made it an alternate timeline and said ok - let's do this.

Strongly believe that if I showed Captain Picard of TNG the Picard version of himself in Picard Season 1 - 2 he would gasp in horror. TNG episode : Tapestry - Picard was given a second chance to be more safe, less assertive, less in command and he would rather die than do that.

Disc... I probably already have a long winded complaint on this, in this very thread, but there was more Klingon spoken than ALL the Star Trek I've ever watched in 1 episode and ... they weren't Klingon. Of course they're racist... and ... the singing? Don't get me started on a first officer mutiny's after 5 supposed loyal years because oh no, we can't assume Klingons will act like Klingons! Great if it was Battlestar Galactica or any of the other 90s sci fi - but it isn't Trek lol.

I also grew up a very big fan of Spock, Data, and the Borg. It was pretty offensive what I saw with Data and the Borg in Picard. lol.

Yeah I think you guys are right - TLDR is - I like the optimism, the idea that we moved past a lot of our problems (but not all but we're trying!), and the good usually wins of Roddenberry vs whatever the hell passes for Trek today (doesn't even try to be Trek in my mind). Ok sure, be negative, fine ... BUT hold true to canon and past characters - that would have been at least watchable for me.
 
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Admittedly, I think Roddenberry took the optimism thing too far when he had total creative control. He needed to be leavened by other writers and producers. But it works as the high-level tone for the franchise. When a show strays too far from it, it doesn't feel 'right' as Trek.
 
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DS9 got a ton of flack for not feeling like traditional Trek at the time, especially because of its serialized nature. Ironically that was something that turned out to have been rather ahead of its time with the nature of streaming TV these days!

IMHO, the difference in the darker tone of DS9 verses shows like Disco is that DS9 as the show was written—as well as its characters—seemed quite aware that these darker elements are antithetical to the Federation on a kind of meta level. Whereas I feel like newer shows like Disco almost embrace it. The worst offender in this instance was Star Trek Into Darkness which makes the Federation into some sort of evil war obsessed cult!

It may very well be the case that newer Trek shows come to shake their “red headed stepchild” reputation DS9 had in time, but right now I just don’t see it.
My preferences for series definitely lie more on the episodic side of things although, I think my preference is a blend of both - similar to what X-Files did. They had episodic stories inside of a a bigger, deeper story & character arc.

“Bad” elements that go against the prime directive & question one’s ethical stance have been around for a while now (like TNGs “measure of a Man” or “Pen Pals” … or the TNG movie “Insurrection”) but Into Darkness really took that to the extreme. I mean, the crew and Captain Kirk were there to say no this isn’t right but Kirk choosing the Lesser of two evils in Kahn to defeat Marcus in the ship Kahn was forced to design by Marcus when pulled out of stasis really dove into the manipulative grit and grime of humanity in a way that didn’t feel very Trek to me. It really made you question who was the bad guy and empathize with a character who instigated a war that killed 30 million+.
 
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