Surface Devices

[MiniApple]

I've preordered the "Plus" base Surface Pro, but I do intend to return it regardless after a week or so

That way I will be able to fully test out my use cases including apps and games quickly myself within a couple of days, check the battery life claims and what noise level there is - without having to wait or ask for certain reviews.

I haven't found any info yet, if some or all Plus/Elite versions are indeed fanless?
Supposedly they do seem to have vents - which I don't mind either way.

If things work satisfactory on the "lowest spec" version I'll be able to sit back and wait at least until the end of the year and have time to compare the various offerings and improvements before pulling the triger on my mobile device(s).

• other Snapdragon X tablets (Surface Go?, non Surface ones)
• potential new Pixel tablet
• potential new iPad Mini
• iPadOS improvements (file management, non stage manager externtal display support, non-webkit browsers not just in the EU)
• AMD and Intel's next gen tablet offerings (battery life, noise, performance)

 

[maflynn]

• other Snapdragon X tablets (Surface Go?, non Surface ones)
• potential new Pixel tablet
• potential new iPad Mini
• iPadOS improvements (file management, non stage manager externtal display support, non-webkit browsers not just in the EU)
• AMD and Intel's next gen tablet offerings (battery life, noise, performance)

I've owned iPads since they came out, and I've not really found a use case for them, outside of content consumption. I've used my iPads on occassion for real work, and it was always a struggle. iPadOS is getting better, and more robust, but I think the form factor itself is the limiting.

I've owned a number of surface pros, and they worked the best when I used them as a traditional laptop and not as a tablet. I haven't used one in a long time (so what I'm about to say may be out of date), but I found windows tablets to be really lacking in basic usage where I could easily do things with the iPad.

I'm not sold on ARM windows, I've used the current version as a VM within my MBP, but I am curious to see how MS improved the translation layer

 

[MiniApple]

Use cases do indeed vary greatly.


Gaming aside, my uses cases are platform agnostic, even if I have some OS and I preferences over others.
With the rise of modern gaming handhelds, I'd be ok to cover that requirement with a separate device.


I never use a laptop in my lap; it's always on a desk/stand/arm - mostly with an external mouse and keyboard - hence I could do with just a tablet form factor.


For me, the limiting factors for tablets so far vary depending on OS, which is very frustrating.

• iPadOS = it's the software restrictions. I don't need MacOS on it, alltough a dual boot would cover all my missing requirements easily.
• Windows = bad battery life and noisy - hence why the switch to ARM is exciting for me.
• Linux = lack of decent hardware choices that just work out of the box, including camera, fingerprint etc.
• Android GrapheneOS = lack of decent hardware and device support: higher-end Pixel tablet or official GrapheneOS support for high-end Samsung and Lenovo devices.

 

[super chimp]

Here’s Pocket Now’s take on the new Surface products. Considering as he says he’s not particularly a fan of Windows 11 laptops he seems quite impressed by them.

I notice he points out in the video that MS will be re-working Windows so it’s optimised for devices with NPU’s. So they’re trying that old trick of getting people to buy new hardware because suddenly your OS is completely slowing down your hardware.

 

[LeeW]

So they’re trying that old trick of getting people to buy new hardware because suddenly your OS is completely slowing down your hardware.

That's more of an Apple trick to be fair.

 

[salamanderjuice]

Here’s Pocket Now’s take on the new Surface products. Considering as he says he’s not particularly a fan of Windows 11 laptops he seems quite impressed by them.

I notice he points out in the video that MS will be re-working Windows so it’s optimised for devices with NPU’s. So they’re trying that old trick of getting people to buy new hardware because suddenly your OS is completely slowing down your hardware.

I don't think they're slowing down Windows for devices without NPUs. More like adding a bunch of features that only work on devices with NPUs (e.g. recall).

 

[Queen6]

Personally in no hurry with these new Snapdragon ARM systems. I want to see what the fallout is. See exactly what they can do for me, and what they do for Microsoft and it partners. Apple is guaranteed to respond with M4 on the Mac, will just come down to who you trust more or look for alternatives

I can already run A.I. language models locally, they vary from needing 4gb-16gb of dedicated RAM. I can see some use cases. Safe to day snapshotting usage every 3-5 seconds isn't one of them. More importantly I know there's no external communication.

Q-6

 

[super chimp]

The convoluted history of Snapdragon X including two lawsuits one of which is ongoing between ARM & Qualcomm. Also the changes in its stated performance. He points out even this late in the game before release there’s much we still don’t know about Snapdragon X.

It looks like Snapdragon X will face a lot of competition like Intel’s forthcoming Lunar Lake CPU.

Intel’s going inside AI PCs, too — its Lunar Lake chip is coming later this year

The AI PC battle has just begun.

www.theverge.com

 

[Technerd108]

The convoluted history of Snapdragon X including two lawsuits one of which is ongoing between ARM & Qualcomm. Also the changes in its stated performance. He points out even this late in the game before release there’s much we still don’t know about Snapdragon X.

It looks like Snapdragon X will face a lot of competition like Intel’s forthcoming Lunar Lake CPU.

Intel’s going inside AI PCs, too — its Lunar Lake chip is coming later this year

The AI PC battle has just begun.

www.theverge.com

Only one way to find out, right?

I got the Surface Laptop 7 with SD Elite, 512gb ssd, 16gb ram for 1256 with student discount from MS.

I am like other's here going to evaluate the unit. I have been extremely impressed with Surface 4 and 3 line of laptops and Surface Pro 9 and newer have all been great IMHO. It is the laptop's that have stagnated badly over the past 3-4 years.

I am not even sure of all the specs yet. However, if anyone is going to get ARM right at the start of a new gen of decent chips I think it will be MS, specially since it seems there is a redesign as well of the hardware finally!!

If these chips deliver and real world use is always the best test of any electronic devices, then it is possible that these are the first truly viable and useful ARM on Windows laptops since ARM on WIndows was announced, IMHO.

I want same performance, exactly same performance on battery as plugged in like m series on Mac's. I want long battery life. I don't expect 20 hours but 12-16 hours depending what you are doing would be enough to give Windows laptops finally more than a day's use one a single charge, get the same performance as if it were plugged in while doing it and having decent integrated GPU with a decent NPU.

All of the people saying all the negative things have every right to be very skeptical as I am but it doesn't mean things can't radically change in one gen.

Once I get the device I will compare it to Intel Ultra 7 with 16gb ram and 32 gb ram on separate machines. I will test every parameter I can test. I will evaluate build quality, speakers, screen, battery life, software experience, etc. I will try to run native and non native software and compare results on all 3 laptops. This should give a nice unscientific anecdotal evidence and base lines for all devices and compare performance and thermals and battery life. I will try testing plugged in and not plugged in for all devices as well with all tests.

This should give a pretty good idea of how the Snapdragon Elite performs in a thin and light laptop and comparitive to the newest Intel laptops.

If QC can best or at least equal in all categories and maybe best in a few probably related to efficiency and thermals while matching in performance it will be very interesting. I am also interested in testing both Intel's integrated GPU and NPU as well as SD Elite against each other.

If the SD is at least equal in performance and a little better while delivering much better battery life and if emulation of non ARM software doesn't make the experience suck and tank battery and performance then I will likely keep it and sell another Intel laptop?

We finally get 120hz screens!! I don't know why they didn't use OLED and could be a deal breaker BUT if the panel is a really good quality IPS then it is possible it might be easier on the eyes than OLED if there is no or little flickering.

It is at least an exciting prospect. If at all turns out to be talk and empty promises I have 60 days to return.

 

[LeeW]

If the Surface Pro really can deliver as promised there is a very strong chance it will replace my iPad. I function with my iPad but I will do far more with the Surface Pro.

 

[TechRunner]

If the Surface Pro really can deliver as promised there is a very strong chance it will replace my iPad. I function with my iPad but I will do far more with the Surface Pro.

Same here. My 7th gen iPad is due for replacement, so I'm going to read some actual user thoughts/experiences and reviews on these new devices, and if they pass muster I'll definitely consider replacing both my iPad and XPS with one.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Personally I do not see the current Snapdragon ARM Win11 - Copilot 2-1's or laptops being a power users must have upgrade

Apple with their M series laptops have raised the bar on expectations of battery endurance and performance plugged in or on battery

These new SD X & Elite should be levelling the playing field for 90% of average users in general circumstances apart from the Pro that is a serious contender IMO to the IPAD for those that need a full OS and other features or software

I hope they live up to expectations and get continuous TLC and not the gap we have seen by MS for the last 3-4 years on the surface range

 

[vladi]

The major use case I see for Surface tablet is for those who expect and need more out of their iPad in terms of desktop apps. This thing will run ARM native desktop Resolve, Photoshop, Blender and probably some CAD like Plasticity, Fusion 360, Autocad ..

 

[Queen6]

A pure guess but I assume Intel users are not so sold on Arm yet where Apple users had no choice also with OEM's like Dell a big % of sales are corporate who also maybe shy on Arm based laptops

I wonder why 🤔 MS sends this out to the punters first. Makes it the norm then forces for all and closes the net. I'm out, dont need that. The A.I. I run I control, is isolated as for Microsoft... "checks in the post" Next work box will likely be Linux for obvious reasons...

Q-6

 

[Technerd108]

I wonder why 🤔 MS sends this out to the punters first. Makes it the norm then forces for all and closes the net. I'm out, dont need that. The A.I. I run I control, is isolated as for Microsoft... "checks in the post" Next work box will likely be Linux for obvious reasons...

Q-6

You know major Linux distros like ubuntu and more will likely start to incorporate some type of Ai as well. It is only a matter of time.

 

[LeeW]

I'm out, dont need that. The A.I. I run I control, is isolated as for Microsoft...

Again, until proven otherwise, I am taking MS at its word that there is no forced requirement for these so-called AI features. Like their current telemetry, it can all be turned off or removed. I'm not even sure MS believes in all this AI more than many of us. But like most others, they are moving in that direction because they don't want to be at the back of the Q as it develops.

Apple is heading towards AI as we have seen with M4, and as @Technerd108 mentioned above, Linux will also, mainly Ubuntu, Mint and the more popular desktop flavours. For people like me who use server variants daily, I am already starting to see AI being developed to tank DDoS attacks and other uses. Do I like that? No, but I will have little choice but to adopt it because others will, and if they can identify a direct attack and mitigate it faster than current tools, I will have to use it.

And let's not forget MS's key target market here: the home user. The vast majority (hundreds of millions +) are non-tech users who will see shiny new 'AI Features' and go oh, that's good whether they fully understand them or not. Recall is probably an outstanding home user feature for the masses who never really understand file systems, where they saved something, or how to find that 'thing' they were looking at the other day. Now you can find it in an instant.

 

[super chimp]

Also wouldn’t more on hardware AI reduce its environmental impact, which how it’s done at the moment is actually quite high?

 

[Queen6]

Again, until proven otherwise, I am taking MS at its word that there is no forced requirement for these so-called AI features. Like their current telemetry, it can all be turned off or removed. I'm not even sure MS believes in all this AI more than many of us. But like most others, they are moving in that direction because they don't want to be at the back of the Q as it develops.

Apple is heading towards AI as we have seen with M4, and as @Technerd108 mentioned above, Linux will also, mainly Ubuntu, Mint and the more popular desktop flavours. For people like me who use server variants daily, I am already starting to see AI being developed to tank DDoS attacks and other uses. Do I like that? No, but I will have little choice but to adopt it because others will, and if they can identify a direct attack and mitigate it faster than current tools, I will have to use it.

And let's not forget MS's key target market here: the home user. The vast majority (hundreds of millions +) are non-tech users who will see shiny new 'AI Features' and go oh, that's good whether they fully understand them or not. Recall is probably an outstanding home user feature for the masses who never really understand file systems, where they saved something, or how to find that 'thing' they were looking at the other day. Now you can find it in an instant.

That's the problem people simply accept, dont read the or understand the corporate word salad T&C's and why we're in the situation we are now. Trust and Microsoft are not something I view as being mutual, MS is in it for it's own reasons not yours or your companies...

If I want a box with A.I. I want full control not some faceless corporation who's primary concern is to monetise me. This machine has such A.I. and the SW has no capacity to connect to the web for good reason. I sign off on NDA's as required and I ensure my systems comply. A.I. isn't some dark art, it's just software...

This machine I need to compromise, the next I wont. As for the sheep they can graze, they've been doing so for years, blindly so...

Q-6

 

[Queen6]

You know major Linux distros like ubuntu and more will likely start to incorporate some type of Ai as well. It is only a matter of time.

Undoubtedly, the only meaningful question is who will be pulling the strings...

Q-6

 

[Queen6]

Also wouldn’t more on hardware AI reduce its environmental impact, which how it’s done at the moment is actually quite high?

Not remotely a blip on the radar. Unless there's a line with a $ value attached vast majority of companies could care very less, they just jumble numbers to make themselves look better...

Q-6

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Again, until proven otherwise, I am taking MS at its word that there is no forced requirement for these so-called AI features. Like their current telemetry, it can all be turned off or removed. I'm not even sure MS believes in all this AI more than many of us. But like most others, they are moving in that direction because they don't want to be at the back of the Q as it develops.

Apple is heading towards AI as we have seen with M4, and as @Technerd108 mentioned above, Linux will also, mainly Ubuntu, Mint and the more popular desktop flavours. For people like me who use server variants daily, I am already starting to see AI being developed to tank DDoS attacks and other uses. Do I like that? No, but I will have little choice but to adopt it because others will, and if they can identify a direct attack and mitigate it faster than current tools, I will have to use it.

And let's not forget MS's key target market here: the home user. The vast majority (hundreds of millions +) are non-tech users who will see shiny new 'AI Features' and go oh, that's good whether they fully understand them or not. Recall is probably an outstanding home user feature for the masses who never really understand file systems, where they saved something, or how to find that 'thing' they were looking at the other day. Now you can find it in an instant.

Given how they make their money, I don’t think their primary market is the home user. It’s the corporation that is their primary user. They make most of their money from Azure and Office365. I also don’t think we are disabling all of the telemetry that they won’t even really talk about with de-bloating tools and the like. You have to add in secure DNS as well (and block the telemetry sites).

Now add this concept to AI/copilot. We will see where it goes privacy-wise. I am very impressed with snapdragon and, honestly, the windows ARM updates. I am less impressed with the telemetry in general and how that is likely increased under the guise of training AI models.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Given how they make their money, I don’t think their primary market is the home user. It’s the corporation that is their primary user. They make most of their money from Azure and Office365. I also don’t think we are disabling all of the telemetry that they won’t even really talk about with de-bloating tools and the like. You have to add in secure DNS as well (and block the telemetry sites).

Now add this concept to AI/copilot. We will see where it goes privacy-wise. I am very impressed with snapdragon and, honestly, the windows ARM updates. I am less impressed with the telemetry in general and how that is likely increased under the guise of training AI models.

Thinking about this some more, is there a way we can save Microsoft from itself? I would happily pay, I don't know, like $300 a year for 5 installs of a completely private version of Windows 11 guaranteed without any telemetry of any kind. Then I could get the copilot (if I wanted) where it only runs on device (which they would also guarantee in this scenario).

That I might trust. Will they do it? They won't even secure Onedrive properly (they check for CSAM), nor end-to-end encrypt user data (like Apple does with Advanced Data Protection).

 

[turbineseaplane]

So they’re trying that old trick of getting people to buy new hardware because suddenly your OS is completely slowing down your hardware.

"They" could just as well be Apple

 

[turbineseaplane]

I'm very mixed on all the AI bits, but the hardware and overall solution offering looks compelling and I'll be keeping a close eye on this.

I have LONG wanted an iPad that could do all the iPad usage stuff, but also run macOS (or at least macOS apps) and be my one single computing solution.

Tablet usage when I want and then docked it could be my full blown computer.

The coup de grace to solve all my needs

Apple seems uninterested in anything beyond selling me the maximum # of discrete devices.
They want to solve their own financial issues more than my issues as a customer

The smart consumer keeps their eyes open and finds the best tool to do the jobs.

My loyalty to Apple at this point is basically zero
They've totally lost my loyalty with their direction over the last 14 years

 

[LeeW]

Given how they make their money, I don’t think their primary market is the home user.

I am referring to the ARM devices in the discussion. Their target market is primarily the home users with these devices. Of course, Corporate, Azure, and other areas are their top earners. Corporate users won't allow things like recall on their devices. That is why there was a previous event for corporate devices, they have been kept very separate.