Surface Devices

[SDColorado]

I think the biggest issue has been the keyboard on the MacBook Pro 2016 and onwards, I like the actual keys, they are more accurate to type on and the feel is great. It’s the reliability that seems to be the issue. I think that will be one of the things they redesign for the 2020 MacBook Pro’s.

I won’t count Apple our of anything, that’s been done in the past and Apple have come back and proven themselves. I think they will have learned a lesson from it, the new Mac Pro will be an interesting one, it’s not targeted to people like my but it will be interesting to see where Apple go with it. I just hope at the same time we get an iMac update as well.

Well...

First one 2018 had constant T-2 errors uneven/rippled antiglare coating along the top of the display and Apple collected, 2nd had QA issues with nicks/chips along the left side near the speaker. 3rd kept heating up to 100c and the "Genious" couldn't figure out what was going on with it either so they replaced, 4th had unresponsive keys, "s" "d" "e" "r" if I recall and 8 key stuck, this one was fine until the "e" key stuck, though it does have some screen uniformity issues pinker on one side, blue/green on the other. But only noticeable on a white background and if really critique it. Also the Vega 20 flicker issue, but that is an odd use case, so only the keyboard issue concerns me.

But I would say in general, QC is job #1... for the customer that is... Apple doesn't give a damn.

 

[Dave245]

Well...

First one 2018 had constant T-2 errors uneven/rippled antiglare coating along the top of the display and Apple collected, 2nd had QA issues with nicks/chips along the left side near the speaker. 3rd kept heating up to 100c and the "Genious" couldn't figure out what was going on with it either so they replaced, 4th had unresponsive keys, "s" "d" "e" "r" if I recall and 8 key stuck, this one was fine until the "e" key stuck, though it does have some screen uniformity issues pinker on one side, blue/green on the other. But only noticeable on a white background and if really critique it. Also the Vega 20 flicker issue, but that is an odd use case, so only the keyboard issue concerns me.

But I would say in general, QC is job #1... for the customer that is... Apple doesn't give a damn.

I totally get you’re frustration, I was right there with you a few months ago when I had an issue with my iPad Pro 2017 that kept resetting itself, I contacted Apple customer service a number of times, they wanted £544.66 to repair, I was unhappy and sent off an email to both Tim Cook and Phil Schiller, I got an email followed by a phone call from Executive relations, the guy told me he was reaching after mr Schiller had received an email from me and was “acting in his behalf” I explained the situation and how frustrated I was with Apple customer service, he apologised and it was arranged that my iPad Pro would be collected, the day it was and within 24 hours of it being picked up and sent to them I received a brand new 2017 iPad Pro.

I have to be honest I was very frustrated with the customer service, but Apple pulled it back at the end with some great customer service, not only did I receive a new iPad Pro but I got a follow up email from Mr Barton, the relations officer to make sure I had received it. I didn’t expect to get a new iPad Pro at all, after all my 2017 iPad Pro was out of warranty and 17 months old.

 

[SDColorado]

Actually the more I think about the 2+ yo thread in the iPad forums about mouse support being the missing elephant and how it is such big news that iPad is finally getting "full" Adobe Photoshop, the more I believe Microsoft does in fact have the concept right and Apple has it wrong.

Nobody talks about mouse/trackpad support for the Surface Pro, because the Surface Pro has always had mouse/trackpad support. It isn't news that Surface Pro is getting full Adobe Photoshop, because Surface Pro has always had access to full Adobe Photoshop, in addition to other full programs that iPad has no access to.

I will actually be surprised if "full" Adobe Photoshop is really even "full" since there is no mouse/trackpad support and because IOS has file system/raw support limitations as well as device support limitations. But time will tell with that.

I do believe Microsoft has the better concept, the question with Microsoft is always one of will they stick with it. Microsoft has a habit of dropping things and going on to the next. A little like Sony in that regard.

And yeah, but no. I have been dealing with Apple support since the first 2018 MBP. Not impressed in the least. Basically already told them to f themselves at one point and still stupidly purchased another.

 

[SteveJUAE]

Well I am glad you chaps got to vent out on the Apple hardware

There have certainly been some interesting points raised. I can see now when we were offering help to those contemplating switching over to Surface and 2 in 1 some of us were giving the benefit of the doubt that approaches to software and its source were common

I find it quite strange the reliance of app stores. My perception for many years was that Apple MacOS users along with Lynix were the most avid hunters of alternative software mainly in part being outside of the mainstream dominance of windows and had been ignored by a large portion of professional software that Windows users took for granted.

Apple users loved embellishing their advantages of the OS and cool things they could do and special unique apps that were free and rivaled others.

I am simply astonished the impact of stores have had on users thoughts on software options to almost the point if it's not in a store it can't exist

I think we are at an interesting junction in hardware platforms. Mobile OS tablets made an interesting in-between platform extension to mobile phones giving users almost like laptop / desktop options yet retaining some of the advantages of mobile platforms including ease of use, portability and generally bringing "computer like" experience to the masses outside of laptops and desktops.

However as users have grown and expect more the evolution of tablets in trying to offer more has pushed the format so close to laptops and desktops in pricing without being able to delivering on software and other key advantages offered in full OS's.

Mobile OS tablets are now even more challenged because of 2 in 1's or products like the Surface range as changes in hardware has allowed full OS to easily mimic the tablet format with all the plus's that a full OS brings.

Of course there are always good reasons to keep things simple and promote ease of use, which is fine when you stick in say $350-400 range no one will dispute that having a simple tablet to do your dailies is a bad idea and suits many. They fill an interesting segment for those that want a bit of this and a bit of that or a companion device for casual entertainment.

The problem I think of mobile OS tablets comes from thinking of learning skills or habits on a tablet is transferable. It's not that simple and this accounts for many comments we see on frustration and lack of embracing the potential of a full OS.

Tablet users tend to bring along mobile OS habits where those down scaling to tablets have embraced the differences more readily

Putting it simply you wont enjoy a full OS 2 in 1/tablet whist you still have the shackles of a mobile OS mindset. Currently it's all those little perceived niceties of a mobile OS that prohibit the full potential at your disposal with a full OS device.

 

[Queen6]

I partly agree with you, I say partly because I do think in some areas Apple are making great products. I love my Apple Watch Series 4, I even loved my original Apple Watch when I first got it back in 2015. The iPhone X I also love, by far the best iPhone I have ever owned.

That being said, they really do need to focus on the Mac, I love the Mac, the iMac is my favourite desktop and MacOS is my favourite OS, even with owning a Surface Pro Windows machine. For me personally Mojave was a nice upgrade last year and so far my favourite version of MacOS.

I think the 2020 redesign (if there is one) needs to be great and work for it's pro users. The upcoming Mac Pro will be interesting, Apple have shown that they can still build Pro machines, the iMac Pro is an example of that.

I guess time will tell

Time indeed will tell. MBP is currently a mess; keyboard, T2 and now the display cable is coming on the radar all of which Apple is either incapable of resolving or simply doesn't care to. TBH Apple sailed it's ship years ago with the professional market, it's just been shamed into doing something by the tech press.

2020 I simply expect more of the same as Apple has done absolutely nothing to illustrate otherwise...

Q-6

 

[SDColorado]

Time indeed will tell. MBP is currently a mess; keyboard, T2 and now the display cable is coming on the radar all of which Apple is either incapable of resolving or simply doesn't care to. TBH Apple sailed it's ship years ago with the professional market, it's just been shamed into doing something by the tech press.

2020 I simply expect more of the same as Apple has done absolutely nothing to illustrate otherwise...

Q-6

In addition to T2, Display Cable and Keyboard, there is the audio popping, screen flicker, light bleed around the rubber gasket and a few other issues as well. 2018 is a mess, it will be interesting to see what 2020 brings, but if the MBA refresh which was a lot of what most people didn't ask for and bendable iPads are any indications, it doesn't bode well.

 

[Dave245]

In addition to T2, Display Cable and Keyboard, there is the audio popping, screen flicker, light bleed around the rubber gasket and a few other issues as well. 2018 is a mess, it will be interesting to see what 2020 brings, but if the MBA refresh which was a lot of what most people didn't ask for and bendable iPads are any indications, it doesn't bode well.

While there have been issues and 2018 was probably the worse year for Apple in a long time, I do think some things get blown way out of proportion on the internet.

The MacBook Air I thought was a good update, I was going to buy one myself before getting the Surface Pro 6. It’s got a Retina display, which is what a lot of people wanted, Touch ID which is a great feature (I love Face ID on my iPhone tho) it’s now 17% (I think) less overall size than the previous version, a little lighter and so forth. It will be interesting to see what sales are like for the Air.

 

[SteveJUAE]

In addition to T2, Display Cable and Keyboard, there is the audio popping, screen flicker, light bleed around the rubber gasket and a few other issues as well. 2018 is a mess, it will be interesting to see what 2020 brings, but if the MBA refresh which was a lot of what most people didn't ask for and bendable iPads are any indications, it doesn't bode well.

My perception is that most of these issues were always there in some shape or form just the onslaught of over enthusiastic fans tried to sweep them to the side until class actions occur

All this business of Macs are built better or last longer etc etc was just hog wash as Apple never gave any more than a years guarantee ie the same as any other OEM . This veneer of supremacy was simple smoke and mirrors to justify high costs for most.

You simply paid a high cost for design aesthetics and some reasonable spec components plus the massive overhead in development and infrastructure that only evolved in a few countries.

Of course it did not help where most W10 OEM's were still in the cheap and cheerful market and only Sony and maybe 1 other were offering any so called premium products.

As we have seen in recent times anyone can knock out a Uni body device with a varied selection of components the only clever stuff going on is managing thermals in the current fad for thinner lighter laptops

Apple enthusiast even convince themselves that the protracted development cycles are worth the wait there is so much BS on the perceived inner works of Apple it's untrue. The perpetual spin of catch phrases has peeked and even die hard fans cant swallow the Apple happy pill anymore.

It's a shame for those that have dedicated a great deal of time and money in supporting a platform that has evolved with so many inconsistencies on core values that attracted the faithful in the first place.

I'm all for premium products and its one reason I wont buy an Apple watch as it's simple not exclusive enough and of course you have to fork out for an Iphone to make it work.

For me my primary issue with Apple products is not pricing but entrapment on services and cross platform use, for a few trivial niceties like answering a mobile call on your laptop. These pale in to insignificance to the money by stealth and lack of choices even down to your home screen layout or whatever niggles you most (SD cards/headphone jack etc etc)

Apple by it's own data knows that Pro's are a tiny part of their sales and products are developed for the masses who can afford the premium price. Apple and their courier partners love Imessage users who are in the most part paying for bundled fee sms/mms and probably never even using them or store shoppers that get trapped in Apple only services

You can still be part of the modern trending world for a lot less than inside the Apple ECO and you can scale your preferences up and down accordingly because of greater options.

There is a lot to be said for the pleasure in owning premium products but understanding the overheads and running costs is missed by many IMO and Apple are experts in their offers to these.

 

[Roadstar]

The MacBook Air I thought was a good update, I was going to buy one myself before getting the Surface Pro 6. It’s got a Retina display, which is what a lot of people wanted, Touch ID which is a great feature (I love Face ID on my iPhone tho) it’s now 17% (I think) less overall size than the previous version, a little lighter and so forth. It will be interesting to see what sales are like for the Air.

Well, for me the MBA 2018 update would’ve been nice if it hadn’t got the butterfly keyboard to ruin it all.

 

[Dave245]

All this business of Macs are built better or last longer etc etc was just hog wash as Apple never gave any more than a years guarantee ie the same as any other OEM . This veneer of supremacy was simple smoke and mirrors to justify high costs for most.

You simply paid a high cost for design aesthetics and some reasonable spec components plus the massive overhead in development and infrastructure that only evolved in a few countries.

I do have to disagree with this, i owned a MacBook Pro from 2011 until it died last year, it was by far the best computer (and my 2012 iMac) i had ever owned. It worked every day from the day i owned it up until the day it died with no issues! that in itself was worth the price for me. That Macbook Pro saw me through university and even my first writing job. I had owned Windows machines before buying the 2011 Macbook Pro, and they were no where near as good as the Macbook Pro.

The same can be said for my 2012 iMac, which is simply going strong to this very day, in fact i'm writing this very post on said iMac. The Macbook Pro 2011 was my very first Mac, i can't comment on personal experiences with the Macbook Pro's these days as i don't own one but my experience with Mac's so far has been nothing less than perfect.

The only experience i have had with the more modern Macs is in the Apple store and one of my friends who is a video editor for a living, he loves the 2016 Macbook Pro and swears that the Touch Bar has saved him heaps of time when editing, which as he told me makes him happy because time is money when you edit for a living.

 

[SDColorado]

While there have been issues and 2018 was probably the worse year for Apple in a long time, I do think some things get blown way out of proportion on the internet.

The MacBook Air I thought was a good update, I was going to buy one myself before getting the Surface Pro 6. It’s got a Retina display, which is what a lot of people wanted, Touch ID which is a great feature (I love Face ID on my iPhone tho) it’s now 17% (I think) less overall size than the previous version, a little lighter and so forth. It will be interesting to see what sales are like for the Air.

Having experienced a number of get issues myself, all within the 14 day return windows for the various machines, it is my own opinion based on these experiences that the problems are not blown way out of proportion at all. Despite what some of the loudest voices in the main section would have everyone believe. Apple does a good job of only admitting to vague terms like “small number” and “small percent” while the complaints rack up and they add new years and new models to their existing repair programs. I will be shocked if 2018 doesn’t get added to the keyboard program and surely there will be a display cable program.

The Retina Display and Touch ID were about the only features Apple added to the MBA that people wanted. But they wanted a bright Retina display, not the dull 234 nit one that also lacks the P3 gamut that Apple provided. They didn’t want the butterfly keyboard or a device that is greatly underpowered compared to the MacBook, yet almost identical dimensions. Actually slightly thicker at one end. Lacks ports, has subpar speakers and costs about as much. I would also be interested to see what sales are like for the air. It was a revolutionary design when it first debuted and Apple could have put forth their best efforts to do that again, but they chose not to. Instead they delivered a product that is inferior to the 13” MBP, yet sells for about same price. But people will buy it because Apple and because Air.

As for the fabled Apple longevity, I still have a pair of Dell laptops, a 2002 and 2003 model that still work. Apple certainly never corned the market on longevity when comparing premium models to premium models among manufacturers.

 

[Roadstar]

As for the fabled Apple longevity, I still have a pair of Dell laptops, a 2002 and 2003 model that still work. Apple certainly never corned the market on longevity when comparing premium models to premium models among manufacturers.

And if something apart from the motherboard or display goes wrong with the Dell, it’s often a rather inexpensive DIY repair with reasonably priced parts readily available.

 

[Dave245]

Having experienced a number of get issues myself, all within the 14 day return windows for the various machines, it is my own opinion based on these experiences that the problems are not blown way out of proportion at all. Despite what some of the loudest voices in the main section would have everyone believe. Apple does a good job of only admitting to vague terms like “small number” and “small percent” while the complaints rack up and they add new years and new models to their existing repair programs. I will be shocked if 2018 doesn’t get added to the keyboard program and surely there will be a display cable program.

The Retina Display and Touch ID were about the only features Apple added to the MBA that people wanted. But they wanted a bright Retina display, not the dull 234 nit one that also lacks the P3 gamut that Apple provided. They didn’t want the butterfly keyboard or a device that is greatly underpowered compared to the MacBook, yet almost identical dimensions. Actually slightly thicker at one end. Lacks ports, has subpar speakers and costs about as much. I would also be interested to see what sales are like for the air. It was a revolutionary design when it first debuted and Apple could have put forth their best efforts to do that again, but they chose not to. Instead they delivered a product that is inferior to the 13” MBP, yet sells for about same price. But people will buy it because Apple and because Air.

Yea those issue suck and Apple should fix it, but how many people have had those issues? I think the problem is that figures can seem to be different than what they are because people only complain on these type of forums when they have an issue. It's very rare to see someone say "My MacBook Pro 2018 is perfect, love it" it does happen but not often, also the amount of people in the general public don't visit these type of sites, so again we don't know how many of them have had issues.

I'm not saying that there are no issues, I had an issue with my iPad Pro 2017 and the customer expereince was frustrating and I was really annoyed, as you may of seen from previous posts of mine, the issue was later sorted out and I was very satisfied with the outcome. Do I think Apple could do better? of course I do, I think there is an issue with the butterfly keyboard breaking, overall I like the feel of that keyboard but it shouldn't break! Apple need to fix that. Again what are the figures for the 3rd gen keyboard failure rates, we just don't know.

The brightness of the new Air screen isnt an issue, it's definitely one of the things that are blown out of proportion. Yes it's not as bright as the Pro, but how many people have their brightness tunred up to 100% anyway? I know I never did, 50% or 60% at max. As for the PS gamut again it's not something you notice unless you put the new Air next to the MacBook Pro and even then it's not staggering. The Air is a laptop for the general consumers and students, a P3 gamut would be wasted. The MacBook Pro makes sense to have the best display with P3 gamut because Professionals use it, so video and photo editors. Also the Air isnt underpowered compared to the MacBook, it beats it in benchmarks. I think I read somewhere that it's around 13% faster than the MacBook.

Just my opinion, I'm not saying that Apple are perfect, there have been some issues that they really need to fix, but sometimes we can all get carried away with seeing posts on forums and think that these issues are wide spread for everyone. I guess time will tell and so will sales figures.

 

[SDColorado]

Yea those issue suck and Apple should fix it, but how many people have had those issues? I think the problem is that figures can seem to be different than what they are because people only complain on these type of forums when they have an issue. It's very rare to see someone say "My MacBook Pro 2018 is perfect, love it" it does happen but not often, also the amount of people in the general public don't visit these type of sites, so again we don't know how many of them have had issues.

I'm not saying that there are no issues, I had an issue with my iPad Pro 2017 and the customer expereince was frustrating and I was really annoyed, as you may of seen from previous posts of mine, the issue was later sorted out and I was very satisfied with the outcome. Do I think Apple could do better? of course I do, I think there is an issue with the butterfly keyboard breaking, overall I like the feel of that keyboard but it shouldn't break! Apple need to fix that. Again what are the figures for the 3rd gen keyboard failure rates, we just don't know.

The brightness of the new Air screen isnt an issue, it's definitely one of the things that are blown out of proportion. Yes it's not as bright as the Pro, but how many people have their brightness tunred up to 100% anyway? I know I never did, 50% or 60% at max. As for the PS gamut again it's not something you notice unless you put the new Air next to the MacBook Pro and even then it's not staggering. The Air is a laptop for the general consumers and students, a P3 gamut would be wasted. The MacBook Pro makes sense to have the best display with P3 gamut because Professionals use it, so video and photo editors.

Just my opinion, I'm not saying that Apple are perfect, there have been some issues that they really need to fix, but sometimes we can all get carried away with seeing posts on forums and think that these issues are wide spread for everyone. I guess time will tell and so will sales figures.

I think you are living in the Apple distortion field. The don’t have those repair programs because of issues that are “blown out of proportion,” they have them because the issue affects a significant number of users, despite what they say. There is a 65 page thread on the Gen. 3 Butterfly Keyboard alone. I have had a couple units exhibit the behavior, Navaira 4 or 5 in a row. People aren’t getting carried away, they are reporting real issues. it’s a shame that deniers feel the need to self police and minimize the issues instead of holding Apples feet to the fire as they should.

I have seen plenty of reviews claiming the MBA display looks dull and washed out compared to the equally priced 13” MBP even when the Air is at max brightness. I would call this an issue and in no way “blown out of proportion.” It’s really inexcusable for the price point.

If they didn’t intend to market the Air to professionals, then why price to the same as their “Pro” model while building it to a consumer/student specification. Pro price at a budget performance.

The problem with the main section isn’t issues being blown out of proportion, it’s the deniers and self policing to suppress issue and belittle those who report them, rather than holding Apple accountable.

I am not that great with math, but I am not seeing a 17% performance increase over the MBP and why would you ever suspect their would be from its 7W CPU? The Air is slower, as would be expected. The MBA’s GPU scores 40% slower than the MBP.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...rsus-13-inch-macbook-pro-and-2017-macbook-air

 

[Dave245]

I think you are living in the Apple distortion field. The don’t have those repair programs because of issues that are “blown out of proportion,” they have them because the issue affects a significant number of users, despite what they say. There is a 65 page thread on the Gen. 3 Butterfly Keyboard alone. I have had a couple units exhibit the behavior, Navaira 4 or 5 in a row. People are getting carried away, it’s a shame that deniers feel the need to self police and minimize the issues instead of holding Apples feet to the fire as they should.

I have seen plenty of reviews claiming the MBA display looks dull and washed out compared to the equally priced 13” MBP even when the Air is at max brightness. I would call this an issue and in no way “blown out of proportion.” It’s really inexcusable for the price point.

If they didn’t intend to market the Air to professionals, then why price to the same as their “Pro” model while building it to a consumer/student specification. Pro price at a budget performance.

The problem with the main section isn’t issues being blown out of proportion, it’s the deniers and self policing to suppress issue and belittle those who report them, rather than holding Apple accountable.

Dissagree, Apple is being held accountable, I myself have done so. The keyboard issue as I mentioned is an issue that Apple need to sort out. But gen 3 isn’t on the program yet because the numbers are not in as to how bad it is, are less people reporting the issue, we just don’t know the figures because we don’t know how many of been sold, 64 pages is meaningless when we don’t know how many were sold.

The Air screen is not an issue, i saw it for myself in the Apple store when I was deciding what to buy before getting the Surface Pro 6. It wasn’t as bright as the MacBook Pro but again, how many people have their brigntess turned all the way up? I know I don’t.

Yea price is high but so was the price of the original Air when Steve Jobs pulled it out of the envelope on stage. The Air will probably drop down in price.

I’m not being apologetic for Apple or denying issues that they have had and continue to have, I’m trying to balance it out. Often people do blow things out of proportion and the Airs brightness is one of them, there are articles that say the screen isn’t as bright, but there are also people who say they love it, it comes down to opinion on that one.

It’s not all rosey on the other side either as I’ve found out with the Surface Pro.

 

[SDColorado]

Dissagree, Apple is being held accountable, I myself have done so. The keyboard issue as I mentioned is an issue that Apple need to sort out. But gen 3 isn’t on the program yet because the numbers are not in as to how bad it is, are less people reporting the issue, we just don’t know the figures because we don’t know how many of been sold, 64 pages is meaningless when we don’t know how many were sold.

The Air screen is not an issue, i saw it for myself in the Apple store when I was deciding what to buy before getting the Surface Pro 6. It wasn’t as bright as the MacBook Pro but again, how many people have their brigntess turned all the way up? I know I don’t.

Yea price is high but so was the price of the original Air when Steve Jobs pulled it out of the envelope on stage. The Air will probably drop down in price.

I’m not being apologetic for Apple or denying issues that they have had and continue to have, I’m trying to balance it out. Often people do blow things out of proportion and the Airs brightness is one of them, there are articles that say the screen isn’t as bright, but there are also people who say they love it, it comes down to opinion on that one.

It’s not all rosey on the other side either as I’ve found out with the Surface Pro.

My turn to disagree. The thread isn’t at all meaningless, particularly when we are seeing the number of repeated issues unit after unit as people exchange them. Gen. 3 may prove to be the most problematic yet. It isn’t part of the program yet, because it hasn’t yet been out long enough where the issues aren’t covered by Standard warranty.

I have seen the MBA in person as well. Lord knows I have spent enough hours in the Apple Store lately. If the subpar quality of that display is good enough for you at the same price point as the 13” MBP, by all means you should grab one. If people can look at the 13” MBP and MBA side by side and at the same price point and honestly say that they prefer the dimmer and duller MBA... I just have no words

It isn’t all rosey on any side, all machines have their own issues and niggles, but the claims that the issues with Apple are overblown are well ... over blown

 

[Dave245]

My turn to disagree. The thread isn’t at all meaningless, particularly when we are seeing the number of repeated issues unit after unit as people exchange them. Gen. 3 may prove to be the most problematic yet. It isn’t part of the program yet, because it hasn’t yet been out long enough where the issues aren’t covered by Standard warranty.

I have seen the MBA in person as well. Lord knows I have spent enough hours in the Apple Store lately. If the subpar quality of that display is good enough for you at the same price point as the 13” MBP, by all means you should grab one. If people can look at the 13” MBP and MBA side by side and at the same price point and honestly say that they prefer the dimmer and duller MBA... I just have no words

It isn’t all rosey on any side, all machines have their own issues and niggles, but the claims that the issues with Apple are overblown are well ... over blown

I didn’t mean the thread was meaningless, I meant trying to say if the 3rd gen keyboard is worse than 1st or 2nd gen is meaningless because we don’t have the data/sales figures to say how many people are having issues. A lot of people may of reported on this forum, but what about the general population who don’t visit these sites.

The MacBook Pro does have a better screen that isnt deniable. But to say the Airs screen is rubbish or an issue is overblown in my opinion. Some people have said that it’s rubbish screen, I’m not saying you personally.

What I was saying was that to have to put the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro side by side to notice any difference. Will the target audience of general consumers and students notice any difference, that was my point

 

[SDColorado]

I didn’t mean the thread was meaningless, I meant trying to say if the 3rd gen keyboard is worse than 1st or 2nd gen is meaningless because we don’t have the data/sales figures to say how many people are having issues. A lot of people may of reported on this forum, but what about the general population who don’t visit these sites.

The MacBook Pro does have a better screen that isnt deniable. But to say the Airs screen is rubbish or an issue is overblown in my opinion. Some people have said that it’s rubbish screen, I’m not saying you personally.

What I was saying was that to have to put the MacBook Air and MacBook Pro side by side to notice any difference. Will the target audience of general consumers and students notice any difference, that was my point

I hear the argument a lot about the general population and how most only come here to post about problems. Of course that isn’t true. I would argue there are more people here defending Apple regarding problems based on how they tend to jump on those who post about an issue like a pack of rabid dogs. But of course the vast majority of the general population isn’t even aware that this site exists.

I am not saying that the MBA display is bad in general. It would be a decent display in a sensibly priced model. The issue is that Apple only priced the Air about $100 less than the 13” MBP and for that $100 you get better performance, a brighter richer display with better contrast, better speakers. What do you get with the MBA that makes it a better option for basically the same price? Slightly better battery life and Touch ID? I think you would really have to like Touch ID to find it a better bargain at the same price.

Apple did not use a lot if common sense in pricing. The price is too high for what it delivers. It should have been a student/consumer focused computer with a student/consumer friendly price point.

Steve pulling a MacBook Air out of a manilla envelope is so last decade. Today everyone is doing thin, light performant computers. Apple needs to realize the magic of that moment is long gone.

If they kept it $999 people would be raving about the new MacBook Air, but if you price it the same as the MacBook Pro, people are going to compare it side by side with the MacBook Pro

And in realm of comparisons, Surface Pro got the better update

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-macbook-air-vs-microsoft-surface-pro-6/

 

[Dave245]

I hear the argument a lot about the general population and how most only come here to post about problems. Of course that isn’t true. I would argue there are more people here defending Apple regarding problems based on how they tend to jump on those who post about an issue like a pack of rabid dogs. But of course the vast majority of the general population isn’t even aware that this site exists.

I am not saying that the MBA display is bad in general. It would be a decent display in a sensibly priced model. The issue is that Apple only priced the Air about $100 less than the 13” MBP and for that $100 you get better performance, a brighter richer display with better contrast, better speakers. What do you get with the MBA that makes it a better option for basically the same price? Slightly better battery life and Touch ID? I think you would really have to like Touch ID to find it a better bargain at the same price.

Apple did not use a lot if common sense in pricing. The price is too high for what it delivers. It should have been a student/consumer focused computer with a student/consumer friendly price point.

Steve pulling a MacBook Air out of a manilla envelope is so last decade. Today everyone is doing thin, light performant computers. Apple needs to realize the magic of that moment is long gone.

If they kept it $999 people would be raving about the new MacBook Air, but if you price it the same as the MacBook Pro, people are going to compare it side by side with the MacBook Pro

And in realm of comparisons, Surface Pro got the better update

https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/apple-macbook-air-vs-microsoft-surface-pro-6/

We will have to agree to disagree on that part people do only complain when there is a problem. How many people post telling us they have no issues, it’s rare, so when viewing a thread or forum it’s very easy to look at it and think that somethings unpopular or has issues. I personally prefer to look at whatever the product is in person and decide for myself.

Do I think the Air is overpriced? Yes I do, the original one was as well, it’s nothing new with Apple, the new iPad Pro’s are also priced very high, in fact they are laptop prices but that’s a different discussion.

I understand what you’re saying, hell in the past I even looked at both the Air and the MacBook Pro and thought which one should I buy, the evidence is all over this forum in the forms of my posts and huge indecisiveness

For a couple of hundred £ more i could get the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, something that a few of my friends were telling me to do before I brought the Surface Pro 6. But the problem with that is the power wasted, not everyone needs a highly spec’d computer and that I think is where the Air comes in, for someone like myself who is a writer and photo edits as a hobby the Air is probably a great machine, as it is for the general consumer. People can make up their own minds when seeing both machines.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t regret buying the Surface Pro 6, I wanted to try it out and fit it into my everyday flow. I will be keeping it around, the return window has gone and i do still use it for blog writing and gaming some of the games I can only play on Windows. But I will be keeping an eye on what Apple are doing with the MacBook Pro and MacBook Air over this year and into next year, it’s not like I have to run out and buy a new Mac straight away

 

[SteveJUAE]

I do have to disagree with this, i owned a MacBook Pro from 2011 until it died last year, it was by far the best computer (and my 2012 iMac) i had ever owned. It worked every day from the day i owned it up until the day it died with no issues! that in itself was worth the price for me. That Macbook Pro saw me through university and even my first writing job. I had owned Windows machines before buying the 2011 Macbook Pro, and they were no where near as good as the Macbook Pro.

The same can be said for my 2012 iMac, which is simply going strong to this very day, in fact i'm writing this very post on said iMac. The Macbook Pro 2011 was my very first Mac, i can't comment on personal experiences with the Macbook Pro's these days as i don't own one but my experience with Mac's so far has been nothing less than perfect.

The only experience i have had with the more modern Macs is in the Apple store and one of my friends who is a video editor for a living, he loves the 2016 Macbook Pro and swears that the Touch Bar has saved him heaps of time when editing, which as he told me makes him happy because time is money when you edit for a living.

The trouble with anecdotal findings like yours and mine below is it rarely reflects the common findings or fair comparisons given the vast range of devices available to many compared to the few by Apple

I have never bought cheap laptops and i rarely keep them much over a year before passing on. I never buy AC or extended warranties. Of the 20 or so MBA, MBP, rMB and 1 IMac I have bought my immediate family I can say although I have had the classic screen flaking and bits falling off 1 failed logic board and 5 broken mag charger cables, the 2 year old Imac failed a year later after selling it on. For a similar number of Windows devices I have had one failed graphics board. I can say one Dell Alienware turned in to a nightmare for my youngest and after 3 on site repairs and 15 months later Dell gave a full refund back something that AC owners can only dream of. Similarly my 2015/16 SP6 that I gifted to my youngest got a screen flicker but was covered by a recall and was replaced in 5 days.

Although I do sell some most end up as solitaire players in my in-laws house till they get the next gifted hand me down. The number of hand me downs has dropped off as finally my 2 eldest in their late 20's finally buy their own laptops and although my wife could not wait for me to swap out her MBP I cant pry her 3 year old rMB out of hands, of course she runs W10

That's just my personal stuff my work issued laptops usually HP or Dell I can't break them even though they are permanently on and docked Mon-Fri

Now I do not consider my self typical and probably lucky I have saved $1000 in AC and other warranties but then if something did break I would pop out and get a new one and sell the repaired one or ditch it as in the case of a 3 year old MBA i had

Now would I ever recommend a small business to by a premium laptop like Apple for their business as it likely to last 3 or 4 or even 6 years absolutely not. Would I recommend a student to buy a similar premium Apple device so it would last absolutely not

While you can pop in to shops like John Lewis and pick up a very nice laptop at half the cost of an Apple product with 2 years warranty and so afford to swap it out 2 years later for the latest spec with another 2 years cover all that premium device brings to the party is risk and unnecessary expense. A premium laptop wont improve your grades and likely to break your heart if someone sits on it at the Uni bar and any small business should always have a back-up device.

The trouble is if you stretch yourself to buy a premium device you are even more concerned with longevity and more likely to get sucked in to AC and other warranties that just compound the issue of finance

As I noted before and the anecdotal evidence on longevity is not backed by OEMS all only give a one year warranty

 

[Queen6]

The Air was pretty much Apple's last chance. In the face of the 13" ntMBP the new Air makes little sense barring Apple trading on the Air's heritage, being little more than a MacBook with a different design. Like much of the range now the Air is seriously overpriced for the value it represents.

Personally I've tired of babying Apple's finest as the list of problems the MBP has suffered over time is both impressive and disappointing. Best thing Apple sells is Apple, these days I just see most of it as a mechanism to elevate the brand to something it's not.

Never seen the MBP offer such poor value, hence why I switched all to W10 based hardware. Apple's computing line has been spiralling down for years. Apple today is a mobile device and services company with the minimal effort put into the Mac which is obvious for all to see. In the mean time Tim & Co will "milk you" for all they can get until the well runs dry and they can kill off the Mac, or dilute to it near nonexistence.

Once and for a long time I would have unreservedly recommended the Mac, today in 2019 the very opposite applies; Apple has become both cheap and greedy, nickel & dimes it's customers at every possible opportunity, designs increasingly problematic hardware and when the "hammer strikes" leaves it's customers to "deal with it" until Apple knows it will undisputedly loose in a court of law.

Five years ago such a forum on MR would have been unthinkable, today near mandatory as more members "flip the switch" and for that you can thank Apple. Surface type devices are far from perfect, equally heading in a good direction offering far greater utility and value for money versus Apple's offering and forced hardware segregation which mostly serves to fill Apple's coffers.

Q-6

 

[SteveJUAE]

Still I think we better give Dave a break now we all have had a bit of venting and cleared the air

Lets get back to advising and helping as we don't wont to scare others off LOL

 

[kazmac]

Still I think we better give Dave a break now we all have had a bit of venting and cleared the air

Lets get back to advising and helping as we don't wont to scare others off LOL

You haven’t scared me off.

Many of the complaints leveled against Apple are valid. I’ve had more issues since 2013 with them than anything prior. And yet I still buy iDevices after being burned.

I keep learning in this thread. I appreciate the knowledge, nudges and tough ‘love.’

Of course, I am a bit nervous about jumping ship and having to learn not only a new OS, but all kinds of things about Windows hardware. However, there isn’t a single Apple computer I’d buy now or even want. Looking again yesterday confirmed that.

I’ve been quite verbal with my attempts to transition to Windows; and while that might be frustrating for the experienced folks here, I am very grateful for the knowledge and information you all impart.

I’ve learned important things: I am not the audience for 2-in-1’s, and Windows software and hardware is nothing like Macs and Apple’s software. Most of all, I need to slow down and not tweak anything.

The Asus Zephyrus S will be released this Tuesday, so I think that will be my iMac replacement.

My ire toward Apple has everything to do with their gimps in build quality, failing customer service and price gouging. I do not mind paying more for a machine that will do what I want and more.

While I understand Dave’s position and respect it, my personal dealings with Apple have been tanking for awhile now. I cannot see myself buying another Mac, no matter how hard my entrenched mindset tries to convince me otherwise.

If everyone else can jump, no reason why I cannot.

So pardon my yes-no-argh-yes and thank you all again.

 

[Roadstar]

Like much of the range now the Air is seriously overpriced for the value it represents.

Well, at least for a Finn like me the name is rather appropriate now. For after all, when we say in Finnish that something’s got ”ilmaa hinnassa” (air in the price), it means that there’s quite a lot of extra padding in the margins, which is the case especially with Apple’s current Euro prices. Right now I can’t get a similar English idiom into my mind, but if one exists, I’m pretty sure someone corrects me soon enough

 

[SDColorado]

We will have to agree to disagree on that part people do only complain when there is a problem. How many people post telling us they have no issues, it’s rare, so when viewing a thread or forum it’s very easy to look at it and think that somethings unpopular or has issues. I personally prefer to look at whatever the product is in person and decide for myself.

Seriously? Have you read any of these threads about various issues? For every person who posts about an issue, the fanboys come out of the woodwork in droves to inform the poster that they don't have the issue and never have had the issue and how everyone one they have ever known and ever will know has never had a problem now or in the future. People posting that they have had no problems aren't rare on MR, they are the majority.

Edit: Especially when you get the posters who will happilly tell you that they have never in their life had a problem with an Apple product, but more importantly they work at a company that has hundreds of them and not a single one of them has ever experienced a single issue in the last 5 years. Not a single one. Fascinating. It is the poor slobs that can only afford to own one at a time that have all the problems

Do I think the Air is overpriced? Yes I do, the original one was as well, it’s nothing new with Apple, the new iPad Pro’s are also priced very high, in fact they are laptop prices but that’s a different discussion.

I understand what you’re saying, hell in the past I even looked at both the Air and the MacBook Pro and thought which one should I buy, the evidence is all over this forum in the forms of my posts and huge indecisiveness

For a couple of hundred £ more i could get the MacBook Pro with Touch Bar, something that a few of my friends were telling me to do before I brought the Surface Pro 6. But the problem with that is the power wasted, not everyone needs a highly spec’d computer and that I think is where the Air comes in, for someone like myself who is a writer and photo edits as a hobby the Air is probably a great machine, as it is for the general consumer. People can make up their own minds when seeing both machines.

I don't disagree that the air has always been overpriced, but now they are making the mistake of putting it in the same price range as the MacBook Pro and that is going to invite direct comparisons as a result. It reminds me of BMW Motorcycles. They always had the BMW F700/750 which was an entry into BMW Motorcycles. Expensive compared to the Japanese brands, but a low price entry to BMW. Now if BMW decided to price the F700/750 at exactly the same price as the 800/850 and both of those only a thousand or so less than the 1200GS, they begin to have a problem. People would then start to compare the specs of the 700 series directly to the 800 series since the price is within $100 and also hey, why not throw the 1200GS into the mix for a $1000 more. Now what was a nice entry point model, begins to look like money poorly spent.

Apple would have done well to keep the Air under a grand and it would probably be a top seller for them. If it is still a top seller at the $1300 price point, it would be beyond me why.

I am not a Surface fanboy either, I only own the one among all manner of Apple products, but I am also not blind to the fact that Apple has some very real and serious issues. I also believe they are suppressing as are many of the forum posters. I don't buy the "overblown claims" or Apples "small number" vagueness.

I used to buy that when I had the display issue with the 2013 13" and they told me a "small number" experience that issue and then it happened again. I sold it before I could find out if it happened a 3rd time. They tell you a small amount experience keyboard issues as they add year after year, model after model to the repair program. People post that they have had issues with 2, 3, 4, or more in a row. It's anecdotal, but really what are the odds of getting that many in a row with failures if the number is as low as Apple claims and the problem is as overblown as some forum posters would have us believe.

The Air was pretty much Apple's last chance. In the face of the 13" ntMBP the new Air makes little sense barring Apple trading on the Air's heritage, being little more than a MacBook with a different design. Like much of the range now the Air is seriously overpriced for the value it represents.

I was really shocked by what Apple released with the Air. It was the 10th Anniversary. A chance for Apple to showcase the product and wow people much as they did 10 years before. Instead, they underwhelmed at a higher price point and invited direct comparisons to their other mainstream lineup of computers. Isn't that along the lines of the mistakes they made recently with phones? Hows that working out for them?

[doublepost=1548610175][/doublepost]

Still I think we better give Dave a break now we all have had a bit of venting and cleared the air

Lets get back to advising and helping as we don't wont to scare others off LOL

Agreed. Drinks on me! . Sorry, I couldn't help myself