Don't they order them in for you?
I have to my policy is never go for the entry level model. I'd rather have a two year old high spec version than a new entry level one.
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The Car Thread ... !
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I have to my policy is never go for the entry level model. I'd rather have a two year old high spec version than a new entry level one.
Our driving patterns are completely different from yours. We drive longer distances in larger cars.
[doublepost=1530736226][/doublepost]I wonder when the General will start selling Camaros for 20% off again. Camaro sales are down 36.1% for Q2! 30.6% YTD!
When I was at the Ford dealership about three weeks back looking at the GT 350, one of the sales members I know mentioned Camaro owners who convert to the Mustang are typically disgruntled when they find out that the resale value dropped significantly on their trim level, (Assuming they were not aware what their vehicle was worth at a time). Aside from the Camaro not having the popularity the Mustang does, I personally don’t understand it, the Camaro is still ‘a lot of car’ for the money and in my area, they do seem to sit longer on lots without selling.
Just an observation, There is a white 2017 Camaro SS Redline (And a few other SS’s) at a dealership about 15 miles from me and they have been on the lot for three months with low mileage that’s been sitting, and the prices are not necessarily unreasonable either.
Anecdotally, I think one tangent some buyers find out with the Camaro during test drives, is that is has more of a ‘cramped’ feeling and the blind spots can be problematic, which likely is off-putting. But in terms of performance and included features, They’re loaded. Also, I think maybe some of the design styling cues (Mainly interior dash area) might be questionable to some with the appeal.
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I tested a Camaro for fun a couple of weeks back just to know what it was like and the one I drove had to have been on the lot for months. It looked used.
I'm waiting for the Audi lease to be up, but I'm starting to think the V8 is the way to go next go round.
I'm waiting for the Audi lease to be up, but I'm starting to think the V8 is the way to go next go round.
I just don't buy the visibility concern as the reason why the 6th gen isn't selling. The 5th gen had the same blind spots and it sold like hot cakes. The interior of the 6th gen is definitely tighter, but I like that cockpit like feeling personally.
It probably comes down to looks and to the average joe, Camaro is not that special this generation( aka nothing really marketable). The 5th gen had that special feeling because of its looks, gotten good exposure by being Bumblebee, and the fact it was the gen that marked the return of the Camaro. The 6th gen to the average folks is just evolutionary and nothing grabs their attention. To us enthusiasts, the Camaro is an amazing vehicle that drives really well( especially in 1LE form) and is an incredible performance bargain. But average joe probably doesn't care about that. The Mustang has a richer history and the GT350 helping make the S550 gen special. Despite the Challenger being the same for the last 10 years with some updates along the way, its sales didn't take off until the Hellcat. Just shows Americans still care about the engine underneath. Just drop in a big high HP engine into a mediocre car with some good marketing will cause it to sell.
It probably comes down to looks and to the average joe, Camaro is not that special this generation( aka nothing really marketable). The 5th gen had that special feeling because of its looks, gotten good exposure by being Bumblebee, and the fact it was the gen that marked the return of the Camaro. The 6th gen to the average folks is just evolutionary and nothing grabs their attention. To us enthusiasts, the Camaro is an amazing vehicle that drives really well( especially in 1LE form) and is an incredible performance bargain. But average joe probably doesn't care about that. The Mustang has a richer history and the GT350 helping make the S550 gen special. Despite the Challenger being the same for the last 10 years with some updates along the way, its sales didn't take off until the Hellcat. Just shows Americans still care about the engine underneath. Just drop in a big high HP engine into a mediocre car with some good marketing will cause it to sell.
Muscle cars sell here like hotcakes. I have no shot to get a good deal here. I figure I'll go back home (Chicago) for a trip or something and drive the Camaro/Mustang back.
I had occasion to rent a fair number of cars over a four year period starting in 2011, when commuting between the central Rockies and northern NC as part of a contract. Oddly enough, it was slightly cheaper to rent a car at DIA and leave my personal car at home, rather than drive it and pay for parking. Consequently most of my driving was in the Rockies, on roads with which I was quite familiar
. My approach was to book the rental for something the accountants wouldn’t scream about when I turned in my expenses, and then when I went to the rental counter, I’d haggle for an upgrade to something fun to drive, most often a new Mustang or Camaro, and pay the difference myself. (As an aside, I am surprised at how few people I’ve met that will haggle with a car rental agency)To get to the point, while I enjoyed both cars (in V6 and V8 versions), the Mustangs were enjoyable, but the Camaros just felt better to drive. Handling, braking, and acceleration, especially in the twisties.
I like to drive fast, but am not reckless. I felt more confident going fast in the Camaros.
Yes, they both had visibility issues, and for an infrequent driver in either car, it could be a problem. But having some experience rendered the visibility concerns, for me, mostly insignificant. As others have stated, one gets used to it and adjusts behavior accordingly. It’s a small price to pay for driving such a car, IMO.
That said, if I was in the market for a coupe, I’d happily take a new version of either car.
With a V8, of course.
I wasn't overly impressed with how the 5th gen drove. GM was hosting a driving event back in 2011 and they had a small auto course setup where you could drive a 'Vette and a Camaro SS( auto with the L99 V8). Had a blast throwing the Corvette around, but I made the mistake of doing the Corvette first then the Camaro. When I got in the Camaro, you felt its weight. The body rolled in the corners, the car moved, but weighing 600 lb more than the 'Vette showed, etc. I never drove the old Mustang GT to know how it drove.
The 6th gen Camaro is night and day difference and I love my 2017 Camaro SS. I drove a 2016 Mustang GT and the Camaro was the better driver, I preferred the Camaro's looks, preferred the LT1 over the Coyote, and I preferred the interior. It wasn't a hard decision for me to buy the Camaro over the Mustang.
I admire the looks of both cars, but prefer the Camaro’s appearance. Purely subjective.
You can do that, but there again the typical person buying an "A to B" enconomy car is probably going to take what's on the lot rather than wait for an order to come in. It may be a while, too, and often the bare bones models lack features that the typical American buyer even in this car class takes takes for granted now(power windows, automatic, keyless entry, etc). The last time I saw the true stripper models in volume was probably 15 years ago when Kia was running a promotion around here for a free Rio if you bought their high trim van. The "free" Rio had an MSRP of about $10K(remember, this was 15 years ago) and didn't have A/C, power locks, power windows, and only had an AM/FM radio. Of course it was a manual also.
I do wish that we could get higher trim cars in manuals, though. Typically in America you can only get them as an option on either a stripper or the sports/performance oriented models.
I'm with you, though, on buying a top trim model(or at least one of the higher end ones) that's a year or two old vs. a new stripper. I've never owned a new car for a reason
. My last girlfriend was a lot more financially savvy than me, but we did have(friendly) disagreements on this. She bought new because she wanted the best reliability she could get and to keep the car until the wheels fell off, but didn't care as much about luxury or performance. Consequently, she drove a somewhat above base 2010 Rio that she bought new(it did have an automatic, AC, power windows, and a few other touches, but had the base engine) while I drive a low mileage used 2010 Lincoln MKZ. I actually paid less for my car 
Perhaps I am mistaking driving excitement with horsepower but I would hate to be driving the Expedition while trying accelerate in an emergency
I did it in my MK5 VW Rabbit when I was stationed in Germany
That's true
I have had enough driving courses between the Army and police departments that I know my limits. Also radars don't bother me because I drive my g ride most of the time but when I do drive my POV I flash my badge and go
Yeah I suppose any car can be an off-road vehicle. My brother has an Outback and I was with him when we went out to a private gun club to use the shooting range and it handled very well on the dirt roads and trail leading to the shooting range. I would look at one but I hear their infotainment systems are datedI suppose any car can be an off-road vehicle if you want it to be
The Outback actually has decent ground clearance, but the approach and departure angles aren’t conducive to off-roading. It’s a jacked up sedan (aka wagon) so I doubt it has the structual build quality to really beat on it hard. It also doesn’t have a low range transfer case. The old AWD systems were actually decent, but I believe they’re now using FWD biased systems with CVT transmissions that are absolutely not suited to any sort of rigorous use. The suspension though jacked up is probably far more oriented for onroad use than actually offering axel articulation.
Even if you consider the Outback a “crossover”, no crossovers are really suited for legitimate off-road use. You really need a body on frame construction preferably with a low range transfer case and a quality 4wd system. Alternatively you need a rigid unibody frame that’s actually designed to handle hard use- such as what Jeep uses or Land Rover in some of their models.
Likewise. If one shops carefully, there are some very good lightly used cars available at a significant discount from new car prices. The ‘14 Charger I bought in March, for example, came off a three year lease with only 20,000 miles, and had everything I wanted. Ok, maybe not everything I wanted, but was willing to pay for.
Well, I suppose there are various definitions of “off-road”. A dirt road doesn’t necessarily constitute offroad. I mean, I don’t think you’d want to try and drive and Outback through sand on a beach or through mud or through ruts.
I believe their infotainment has CarPlay and if it’s the same system as the Impreza, it’s not bad. It’s definitely about a decade ahead of what’s offered in the 4Runner.
I am glad to hear the infotainment system is about a decade ahead of the 4Runner perhaps I'll look at an Outback
My wife's Kia Picanto is the base model. It's got no AC or Bluetooth. I drive it about once a week to give it a run (she never drives more than 2 miles from Home, a couple of times a week).You can do that, but there again the typical person buying an "A to B" enconomy car is probably going to take what's on the lot rather than wait for an order to come in. It may be a while, too, and often the bare bones models lack features that the typical American buyer even in this car class takes takes for granted now(power windows, automatic, keyless entry, etc). The last time I saw the true stripper models in volume was probably 15 years ago when Kia was running a promotion around here for a free Rio if you bought their high trim van. The "free" Rio had an MSRP of about $10K(remember, this was 15 years ago) and didn't have A/C, power locks, power windows, and only had an AM/FM radio. Of course it was a manual also.
I do wish that we could get higher trim cars in manuals, though. Typically in America you can only get them as an option on either a stripper or the sports/performance oriented models.
I'm with you, though, on buying a top trim model(or at least one of the higher end ones) that's a year or two old vs. a new stripper. I've never owned a new car for a reason
But it's been too hot to even consider of late.
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My Golf TSI was about 2 years old when I got it. Had less than 6000 miles on the clock.
Probably saved 50% off the list price.
It wasn't the only factor, but it was a notable one when we replaced the previous T4R.
The ICELE in the Durango is fantastic: the display is extremely sharp, very responsive, the implementation of CarPlay is terrific (the screen ratio allows for CP and all the other car functions at the same time), the location prevents glare - and you get some information on the LCD panel on drivers console.
Good to know since I am going to look at a Durango thanks to I think your recommendation earlier. What does ICELE stand for? I get that it's the infotainment system but what does the abbreviation stand for
Wow, that's a great photo, almost looks like marketing material
[doublepost=1530813408][/doublepost]Oh, I wrote ICELE, as in In Car ELEctronics - we used to use just ICE all the time, but now that that also means Internal Combustion Engine ... figured I'd start a differentiator
Thanks now it makes senseOh, I wrote ICELE, as in In Car ELEctronics - we used to use just ICE all the time, but now that that also means Internal Combustion Engine ... figured I'd start a differentiator
You have quite the variety of cars you’re looking at right now. A Subaru Outback to a BMW X3 m40i is a pretty big span in the type of car, not to mention cost.
As for the Durango interest, @D.T. will give me a hard time, but unless you need 7-passenger seating I’d take a look at the Jeep Grand Cherokee instead.
I’ve always been pretty impressed with Jeep’s (ergo Dodge’s) Uconnect system, especially considering the cost of their vehicles. Of all the systems I’ve used, I’d put it at the top of the list. I think iDrive and Audi MMI however are the top contenders. It’ll be interesting to see how the new Mercedes COMAND works, I’ve never been impressed with the existing systems. I just wash Uconnect had some more physical buttons, but that seems to be a growing issue with a lot of ICE today. Considering my top choice for an SUV is the XC60, I will have a shortage of physical buttons. That said, Volvo does a good job with intuitive and relatively sophisticated steering wheel mounted controls.
That's true. I honestly don't know what I will end up with but I need to start looking because my current car is costing me a lot of money in repairs
It's just me so I don't need seating for 7. I will take a look at the Jeep Grand Cherokee as well thanks for the recommendation
Heck, we were set to buy a JGC, Overland+High Altitude (you know I love my blacked out trim
), and 5 vs. 7 seating was most of the motivation behind the DDRT vs. the JGC (though when I did a little more research, the Jeep has a little more cost tied up in the AWD system, the DD, at least at the RT level, get the Hemi (you opt for the Hemi in the JGC, but then it's a good $4K-5K more for matching equipment outside of the AWD).FWIW, we actually wound up with a 6-seater, with the 2nd row being the optional Capt's Chairs by request of the little G
All valid points about the Camaro by Matz and Quagmire. It’s not really about the Camaro versus the Mustang genre for me, but more or less; *Why* is the Camaro less popular than the Mustang in general. (And again, Thats not to say the Camaro is not a good car, because it is.)
My own insinuations is based on three things:
The Camaro simply just doesn’t have the Cult like following the Mustang has. I see the Mustang as ‘what one person has, the next person wants’ theory. I have been to probably more car shows/meets than most I know over the years and they are just dominated by Mustangs. Obviously we all know the aftermarket is vast for the Mustang, where I can think of four websites alone dedicated to nothing but Mustang parts. I gather the Camaro can be modified after the fact, I just think Mustang has more availability of sources.
Secondly, and likely one of the main reasons, failed marketing. I never see the Camaro marketed anywhere in media, [And yes, I realize other peformance cars are not marketed either.] However, How is a product to sell/be successful if the consumer doesn’t have the mindset of not seeing it advertised, ever. Ford markets the Mustang all throughout my region through billboards, social media, localized cable, ect. And Ford is creative with the Mustang and competitive, where it’s usually “Why consider the Mustang over the Camaro” slogans.
Using Apple as a literal (But unrelated) example, one of the reasons they are so successful with their products, is not just because of their hardware standards and customer service, because they have some of the most unique marketing in the tech industry (And they spend millions _just_ on the iPhone). And you have to spend money to make money, and that’s why I think sometimes Ford is so successful with the Mustang, it’s not just because it’s a well-built car, but because they have tactful marketing that’s competitive and aggressive, especially in the muscle car segment.
Third, the price of the Camaro SS is considerably higher over a base Mustang GT, and that’s not to say that you’re not receiving more, but I just question how much the consumer is willing to spend when they can have similar options with the Mustang GT for less.
Adding a fourth reason: Styling. Yes, all personal preference when it comes to any car what someone sees, the next person may view to their liking. The Camaro to me is either ‘like it or hate it’, there really isn’t an between. I’m Personally open to all cars and I see different aspects in cars that I own that I don’t like, and I don’t think everyone should have to like every feature or cosmetic piece about the car in order to buy it. I just think the Camaro has interior designs that are different.
But the more I find myself talking about the Camaro, the more I actually want to drive one to make A better evaluation more well-balanced thought process versus just based on my own glimpses.
My own insinuations is based on three things:
The Camaro simply just doesn’t have the Cult like following the Mustang has. I see the Mustang as ‘what one person has, the next person wants’ theory. I have been to probably more car shows/meets than most I know over the years and they are just dominated by Mustangs. Obviously we all know the aftermarket is vast for the Mustang, where I can think of four websites alone dedicated to nothing but Mustang parts. I gather the Camaro can be modified after the fact, I just think Mustang has more availability of sources.
Secondly, and likely one of the main reasons, failed marketing. I never see the Camaro marketed anywhere in media, [And yes, I realize other peformance cars are not marketed either.] However, How is a product to sell/be successful if the consumer doesn’t have the mindset of not seeing it advertised, ever. Ford markets the Mustang all throughout my region through billboards, social media, localized cable, ect. And Ford is creative with the Mustang and competitive, where it’s usually “Why consider the Mustang over the Camaro” slogans.
Using Apple as a literal (But unrelated) example, one of the reasons they are so successful with their products, is not just because of their hardware standards and customer service, because they have some of the most unique marketing in the tech industry (And they spend millions _just_ on the iPhone). And you have to spend money to make money, and that’s why I think sometimes Ford is so successful with the Mustang, it’s not just because it’s a well-built car, but because they have tactful marketing that’s competitive and aggressive, especially in the muscle car segment.
Third, the price of the Camaro SS is considerably higher over a base Mustang GT, and that’s not to say that you’re not receiving more, but I just question how much the consumer is willing to spend when they can have similar options with the Mustang GT for less.
Adding a fourth reason: Styling. Yes, all personal preference when it comes to any car what someone sees, the next person may view to their liking. The Camaro to me is either ‘like it or hate it’, there really isn’t an between. I’m Personally open to all cars and I see different aspects in cars that I own that I don’t like, and I don’t think everyone should have to like every feature or cosmetic piece about the car in order to buy it. I just think the Camaro has interior designs that are different.
But the more I find myself talking about the Camaro, the more I actually want to drive one to make A better evaluation more well-balanced thought process versus just based on my own glimpses.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/che...-ford-mustang-gt-performance-pack-comparison/
Jonny like the Camaro better
Jonny like the Camaro better