The Car Thread ... !

[Lord Blackadder]

(getting on soapbox) After going on a long drive this weekend, looks like I have to bring out my gripe again: automakers are putting in too low profile tires on even economy vehicles.

Agreed.

Automakers are giving you better brakes (better than ever before), which requires larger wheels to fit around the calipers. To keep the rolling circumference the same, you end up with lower profile tires. They also do this because of the added weight these vehicles have with all the safety equipment now.

I'll take better braking.

If it were just about that, I'd agree. But on the other hand bigger wheels for bigger brakes does NOT mean you need teensy low-profile tires Sure, to keep the outer diameter the same you need lower profile tires, but the outer diameter has risen over the years too anyway. The trend is bigger in all measurements (except tire profile) For vehicles that need bigger brakes to tow, like a truck or midsize SUV, their stiffer suspensions are going to make the ride with a low-profile tire really harsh, and depending on the tire the wider contact patch actually reduces traction in snow and mud. A mid-to-high profile tire is a better solution in every way for these vehicles - except for looks.

It's all about 'stance'. Especially for SUVs which have a fundamentally blobby and uninteresting shape - blowing out the wheel arches and throwing big wheels with low-profile tires helps conceal bulk. Journos writing in reputable auto mags are constantly complaining about the terrible ride lots of new vehicles suffer from due to the big wheel/low-profile tire obsession.

For a sports car a low profile tire is fine of course - you are going to be driving on good roads or a track, and are willing to sacrifice ride comfort and all-weather traction for dry weather grip. That's the one case where these tires make practical sense. But even a high-performance GT car will often benefit from a less-aggressive tire profile, if you're genuinely using it as a grand tourer - you need to be able to soak up the miles without getting jounced to pieces and you might encounter the odd bad road.

People want their SUVs to tow and haul as much as a truck, go as fast as a sportscar, ride like a big luxury sedan, and have a SEMA showcar stance. All in the same vehicle. Something's got to give somewhere (actually everything gives a little everywhere).

 

[SactoGuy18]

It's all about 'stance'. Especially for SUVs which have a fundamentally blobby and uninteresting shape - blowing out the wheel arches and throwing big wheels with low-profile tires helps conceal bulk. Journos writing in reputable auto mags are constantly complaining about the terrible ride lots of new vehicles suffer from due to the big wheel/low-profile tire obsession.

Even high-end luxury vehicles are too much into the low-profile tire fad. Sure, we can tune the suspension to compensate for the tires, but I'm still not a fan of them, especially on lower end cars where it's much harder to improve ride quality.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Agreed.

If it were just about that, I'd agree. But on the other hand bigger wheels for bigger brakes does NOT mean you need teensy low-profile tires Sure, to keep the outer diameter the same you need lower profile tires, but the outer diameter has risen over the years too anyway. The trend is bigger in all measurements (except tire profile) For vehicles that need bigger brakes to tow, like a truck or midsize SUV, their stiffer suspensions are going to make the ride with a low-profile tire really harsh, and depending on the tire the wider contact patch actually reduces traction in snow and mud. A mid-to-high profile tire is a better solution in every way for these vehicles - except for looks.

It's all about 'stance'. Especially for SUVs which have a fundamentally blobby and uninteresting shape - blowing out the wheel arches and throwing big wheels with low-profile tires helps conceal bulk. Journos writing in reputable auto mags are constantly complaining about the terrible ride lots of new vehicles suffer from due to the big wheel/low-profile tire obsession.

For a sports car a low profile tire is fine of course - you are going to be driving on good roads or a track, and are willing to sacrifice ride comfort and all-weather traction for dry weather grip. That's the one case where these tires make practical sense. But even a high-performance GT car will often benefit from a less-aggressive tire profile, if you're genuinely using it as a grand tourer - you need to be able to soak up the miles without getting jounced to pieces and you might encounter the odd bad road.

People want their SUVs to tow and haul as much as a truck, go as fast as a sportscar, ride like a big luxury sedan, and have a SEMA showcar stance. All in the same vehicle. Something's got to give somewhere (actually everything gives a little everywhere).

I had a 2003 Ram 1500 with 16" wheels and 33" tires, I now have a 2015 Ram 1500 with 20" wheels and the metric equivalent of 33" tires. I have higher towing limit, and it rides WAY better in every way. Part of it is coil springs replaced the leaf springs in the rear, another huge part is the lower profile tires.

Auto makers have taken major steps to improve the suspensions vs. the previous versions that came with higher profile tires.

Lower profile tires improve handling, including braking. Putting in massive discs without reducing the sidewall isn't optimal. Sidewall flex during turning, and braking with high profile tires is something lower profile tires have a major advantage over.

Just like the automakers have improved their ride quality and braking, so have tire manufactures. Improved compounds, and improved tread patterns. These lower profile tires do not sacrifice more than they add. This includes rain, snow, or anything else. Unless you are talking about off-roading, and if you are, this is not what vehicles are designed for. Even those targeting to off-roading, the OEM wheels and tires are still street versions (even the OEM mud terrain tires you find on Rubicons, Rebels, Raptors,...).

Even the off roading industry has gone away from massive sidewalls. When I started wheeling 15" wheels with 35"+ tires were the norm. By the time I sold my rig, everyone had moved to 17" wheels.

When you keep adding power to these vehicles, you need WAY better braking and better tires to keep up with stopping these powerful and heavier (safety equipment) vehicles.

I still will take lower profile tires, for every situation vs. the days of the past. Now, adding lower profile + runflats, I will agree all day, every day. I am against runflats.

 

[SactoGuy18]

A big problem with run-flat tires are their quite stiff sidewalls. That proved to be a issue for the likes of BMW when they were first introduced until BMW redesigned their suspensions to compensate for the stiff sidewalls of run-flat tires.

 

[JT2002TJ]

A big problem with run-flat tires are their quite stiff sidewalls. That proved to be a issue for the likes of BMW when they were first introduced until BMW redesigned their suspensions to compensate for the stiff sidewalls of run-flat tires.

I still think the ride like crap today. Many BMW owners simply swap to non-runflats and risk it by going without a spare. Luckily my e46 325i has a full spare. The e46 M3 doesn't have the trunk wheel space, since it is used up by the massive M3 muffler.

 

[Thirio2]

For most modern cars, ultra low profile tires and large diameter wheels are for looks and marketing. Unless you are making multiple panic stops smaller disc brakes will stop you just fine. Stopping power is usually limited by tire compound and configuration. Low tread wear compound summer tires have more grip than high tread wear all season tires except in very cold weather, thus giving you more stopping power. If, on the other hand you want to race, you want bigger discs to absorb and radiate the heat generated by hard use. Ultra low profile tires will also be more responsive than high profile tires. Keep in mind the actual amount of rubber on the road is strictly determined by tire pressure and weight on the tire. Profile doesn’t matter. Smaller aftermarket wheels and tires are an option, especially for use in snow. High profile tires also give more protection from potholes for your expensive wheels.

 

[SactoGuy18]

I still think the ride like crap today. Many BMW owners simply swap to non-runflats and risk it by going without a spare. Luckily my e46 325i has a full spare. The e46 M3 doesn't have the trunk wheel space, since it is used up by the massive M3 muffler.

Your car is one of the early BMW's that had the run-flat option. I believe more recent BMW's (at least since circa 2010) ride way better with run-flats since the suspension was tuned to compensate for the stiffer sidewalls.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Your car is one of the early BMW's that had the run-flat option. I believe more recent BMW's (at least since circa 2010) ride way better with run-flats since the suspension was tuned to compensate for the stiffer sidewalls.

I have been in friends BMW's before and after switching from runflats to regular low profile tires. At least in the NY area, it rides WORLDS better with non-runflats.

 

[SactoGuy18]

I have been in friends BMW's before and after switching from runflats to regular low profile tires. At least in the NY area, it rides WORLDS better with non-runflats.

But how old is that BMW? Are they pre-2010 models?

 

[JT2002TJ]

But how old is that BMW? Are they pre-2010 models?

no post. 2018+.

 

[44267547]

2023 Range Rover Sport debut:

- Available in ‘4 trim’ levels (3.0l inline 6, hybrid and 4.4l T.T. V8 derived from BMW.) It’s no longer supercharged. Horsepower varies from ~355 to 523hp. Range rover claims that the ‘all electric’ variant is due in 2024.

- Meridian sound system with as many as 29 speakers and up to 1430 watts of amplified power.

-Price points start at $84,000 and up to $130,000 for the TwinTurbo V8 Edition.

-Standard wheels are 21 inch and range up to 23 inches.

-Main competition in this pricing segment is the BMW X5.

Range Rover Sport | Performance SUV, Range Rover

Dynamic design and exclusive details: discover how Range Rover Sport redefines sporting luxury.

www.landroverusa.com

 

[JahBoolean]

View attachment 2007659

The back is gorgeous but I am still in denial about the post 2012 front design. Quite curious to see what an electric powertrain will mean for the front grille.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Range Rovers are lively looking cars and seem to be so popular on the roads, but they are hideously expensive to keep on the road with their unreliability. Even the people who work for JLR warn you lol.

 

[Zendokan]

Soon to be "Black Boxes" and "Intelligent Speed Assistant (ISA) in cars.

https://road-safety-charter.ec.euro...assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across_en

in short: ISA will make noise and gives some resistance once you try to drive over the maximum speed...and registrates this in a build-in black box that can be read by the police afterwards when they physical link a pc to that black box.

First it will be in the EU, but let us be serious, no carmaker is going to build this option only in cars for the EU market, but will start to build it in all their cars and (temporarily) disable it for the cars sold outside the EU.

Yet, I expect and suspect that once all new cars are driving around with ISA installed, governments outside the EU will pass legislation that makes activation of ISA mandatory.

1984 should have been a warning message, not an user guide.

 

[AJK13K]

A big problem with run-flat tires are their quite stiff sidewalls. That proved to be a issue for the likes of BMW when they were first introduced until BMW redesigned their suspensions to compensate for the stiff sidewalls of run-flat tires.

I am a BMW owner and a Lazy “senior citizen”. I love run flats. I don’t want to (can’t) change flats anymore. The seven series with low profile tires, the deep note of the BMW have been replaced by an x5, a cane and run flats.

 

[SactoGuy18]

I am a BMW owner and a Lazy “senior citizen”. I love run flats. I don’t want to (can’t) change flats anymore. The seven series with low profile tires, the deep note of the BMW have been replaced by an x5, a cane and run flats.

The thing is that more recent BMW's have updated their suspensions to better work with the stiffer sidewalls of run-flat tires. When BMW first made them available for their cars around 2000, the suspension design weren't designed for these types of tires and a lot of automobile journalists complained about the stiff ride.

 

[bunnspecial]

For most modern cars, ultra low profile tires and large diameter wheels are for looks and marketing. Unless you are making multiple panic stops smaller disc brakes will stop you just fine. Stopping power is usually limited by tire compound and configuration. Low tread wear compound summer tires have more grip than high tread wear all season tires except in very cold weather, thus giving you more stopping power. If, on the other hand you want to race, you want bigger discs to absorb and radiate the heat generated by hard use. Ultra low profile tires will also be more responsive than high profile tires. Keep in mind the actual amount of rubber on the road is strictly determined by tire pressure and weight on the tire. Profile doesn’t matter. Smaller aftermarket wheels and tires are an option, especially for use in snow. High profile tires also give more protection from potholes for your expensive wheels.

Thank you for this.

I have been beating this drum for a long time-braking even in a vehicle with what we'd generally call "small" brakes is limited by the grip of the tires and how the suspension handles weight transfer during heavy braking. The latter is a bigger deal than I think a lot realize, as in more primitive suspension the rears can't be relied on to do very much braking.

All of that aside, I've been saying for a while that big brakes behind big open wheels are mostly bling and not actually of benefit for 99.9% of drivers who drive sanely. If you're towing 10,000lbs down a mountain, sure, you need your brakes to be able to soak up as much heat as possible before they fade. There comes a point even with that, though, that better brakes can't make up for other techniques like downshifting.

I've been called less than flattering things in this thread for saying all of this, including some who perceive the initial "grab" of bigger brakes as meaning better braking. Perception really is the word, there, and the fact that they do grab so much just means that the car is harder to stop smoothly in normal driving. For a car with what I'll call oversized brakes, if you put rotors a couple of inches smaller on(and of course matching calipers/pads) you would still be able to lock the wheels, or rather get ABS into the mode where it's trying to keep them from locking. You just have to push the pedal further to do that.

 

[PatrickCocoa]

Soon to be "Black Boxes" and "Intelligent Speed Assistant (ISA) in cars.

https://road-safety-charter.ec.euro...assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across_en

in short: ISA will make noise and gives some resistance once you try to drive over the maximum speed...and registrates this in a build-in black box that can be read by the police afterwards when they physical link a pc to that black box.

I agree. About 10 years ago my State Farm guy said "hey want to save 40% on your auto premium?". I said "sure". Then a week later a letter shows up with a sensor I'm supposed to put in my car, apparently as long as I drive "correctly" I get the lower premium.

I threw it away.

I see ads all the time now for Allstate and State Farm showing large burley men driving carefully, or dudes driving with a fishbowl on top of their car, or some teenager not mowing down a group of orphan schoolchildren. At the end of the ad they smile thankfully to Allstate/State Farm for teaching them to drive the approved way.

I've had a Tesla for the past six years, and if I was charged based on acceleration I'd be paying about a million dollars month for insurance. No accidents, unfortunately for the insurance company actuaries.

 

[44267547]

I've had a Tesla for the past six years, and if I was charged based on acceleration I'd be paying about a million dollars month for insurance. No accidents, unfortunately for the insurance company actuaries.

Please forward me the name of your insurance company.

I’m going to report Patrick Cocoa that drives a Tesla irresponsibly with unnecessary accelerations, therefore; I think your premiums need to rise by 120% once they place a hidden vehicle dynamics tracker.

 

[Zendokan]

Please forward me the name of your insurance company.

I’m going to report Patrick Cocoa that drives a Tesla irresponsibly with unnecessary accelerations, therefore; I think your premiums need to rise by 120% once they place a hidden vehicle dynamics tracker.

You laugh, but there are already car insurance companies already operating in Europe (UK and mainland) that offer up to 40% price reduction for younger drivers when they install a dash cam/GPS tracker in their car.
Your car premie goes up or down depending on your driving style. The system is far from perfect (example: driving past a traffic light that turns orange will not increase your insurance premie, while hard braking will do that. Because in the first scenario you are driving smoothly and the system registrates "an obstacle".

At this moment it is just an extra insurance option provided by car insurance companies, but once ISA starts to be implemented from July 2022 on all new models coming out, it will take about maximum 5 years before there isn't a new car sold without ISA onboard in the world.
How soon afterwards car insurance companies will be lobbying to have the usage of ISA integrated with their dash cam/GPS insurance policies and how soon after they succeed in that, all car policies will change to include dynamic tracking?

Maybe there is somewhere a thin foil hat out there for me, but seeing how we as a people have given up personal liberties for the illusion of safety or financial incentives across North America and Europe.
I'm not really looking with a positive outcome to this evolution of patronizing from elected officials that is happening throughout the past decade.

 

[Huntn]

I opened FlipBoard today to this and thought wow, bold, but then realized it was actually from the 1980s.

 

[Pezimak]

Range Rovers are lively looking cars and seem to be so popular on the roads, but they are hideously expensive to keep on the road with their unreliability. Even the people who work for JLR warn you lol.

Yeap they certainly have a reputation. The new one is absolutely stuffed full of tech! Just waiting to break. They have tried to price it away from the German competition and below the luxury brands like Bentley and Rolls Royce etc.

 

[Pezimak]

Soon to be "Black Boxes" and "Intelligent Speed Assistant (ISA) in cars.

https://road-safety-charter.ec.euro...assistance-isa-set-become-mandatory-across_en

in short: ISA will make noise and gives some resistance once you try to drive over the maximum speed...and registrates this in a build-in black box that can be read by the police afterwards when they physical link a pc to that black box.

First it will be in the EU, but let us be serious, no carmaker is going to build this option only in cars for the EU market, but will start to build it in all their cars and (temporarily) disable it for the cars sold outside the EU.

Yet, I expect and suspect that once all new cars are driving around with ISA installed, governments outside the EU will pass legislation that makes activation of ISA mandatory.

1984 should have been a warning message, not an user guide.

Why are you surprised or angry about this? This is what self driving cars will be like, they will meticulously stick to the speed limits and driving conditions and traffic laws. Its obvious this will be required in law for a self driving car to be allowed on the roads of the future. This is all just a build up to that.

 

[Zendokan]

Why are you surprised or angry about this? This is what self driving cars will be like, they will meticulously stick to the speed limits and driving conditions and traffic laws. It's obvious this will be required in law for a self driving car to be allowed on the roads of the future. This is all just a build up to that.

I'm not interested in EVER owning a self driving car, I'm a petrolhead, I like my cars to have 4 wheels, 1 steering wheel, 3 pedals and a manual transmission.
I'm not even interested in owning an electrical car, that's why I bought again a petrol engined car this year following that above description and with it missing ISA.

Once the day comes that I can't buy a petrol engined car anymore, it will be a hydrogen/electric hybrid, unfortunate with two pedals and a bloody automatic, but I've really had enough with all this pampering of the politicians and car industry with their sensors on your seatbelt (I'm an adult, I always wear my seatbelt, but do you really need an alarm on it?) and now sensors with an alarm at my throttle?

 

[Pezimak]

I'm not interested in EVER owning a self driving car, I'm a petrolhead, I like my cars to have 4 wheels, 1 steering wheel, 3 pedals and a manual transmission.
I'm not even interested in owning an electrical car, that's why I bought again a petrol engined car this year following that above description and with it missing ISA.

Once the day comes that I can't buy a petrol engined car anymore, it will be a hydrogen/electric hybrid, unfortunate with two pedals and a bloody automatic, but I've really had enough with all this pampering of the politicians and car industry with their sensors on your seatbelt (I'm an adult, I always wear my seatbelt, but do you really need an alarm on it?) and now sensors with an alarm at my throttle?

Oh I agree, but thanks to the politicians and companies like Apple it has to be said, the days of driving cars ourselves are quickly coming to an end.
First they will use tech to control the way we drive, then remove the ability to drive all together. I believe some makers are already designing cars 'without' steering wheels, and I'm not talking about concept cars either.
The EU and the U.K. government have agreed to make it law that cars restrict the speeds you can drive at, not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but it is a freedom being removed right now from new cars. Certainly it will make it pointless owning a new super car that's for sure.