The Car Thread ... !

[Huntn]

Interesting article about automation and a driver, I’ll assume a pro or semi-pro driver complains about it.

The 2022 Volkswagen Golf R Shows That Sophistication Isn't Always a Good Thing

The new Golf R is more advanced than any other hot hatch, but that doesn't make it better.

www.roadandtrack.com

I’ll assume that it’s great for average drivers who want to push the car.

Now my 94 year old Dad is so anti- automation he traded in a recently acquired 2017 vehicle, a Honda or Nissan something or other for a 2004 because he’d did not like all the buttons. He seems hostile to a button that starts the car and has had a live-hate relationship with his computer for decades.This is how it is for some elderly folks.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Interesting article about automation and a driver, I’ll assume a pro or semi-pro driver complains about it.

The 2022 Volkswagen Golf R Shows That Sophistication Isn't Always a Good Thing

The new Golf R is more advanced than any other hot hatch, but that doesn't make it better.

www.roadandtrack.com

I’ll assume that it’s great for average drivers who want to push the car.

Now my 94 year old Dad is so anti- automation he traded in a recently acquired 2017 vehicle, a Honda or Nissan something or other for a 2004 because he’d did not like all the buttons. He seems hostile to a button that starts the car and has had a live-hate relationship with his computer for decades.This is how it is for some elderly folks.

My Dad is also not one to embrace technology. He has cruise control but refuses to use it because he thinks it’s dangerous. Doesn’t matter how many times I’ve explained how it works to him.

 

[SactoGuy18]

Speaking of cars, I saw the press preview of Toyota USA's 2023 lineup. I like the fact all Corollas are switching to the more powerful M20A-FKS engine, which also has better fuel economy. The new hybrid Corolla models could make the Prius obsolete, though.

 

[44267547]

The new hybrid Corolla models could make the Prius obsolete

The Prius is in a totally different league in terms of cargo and storage over the Corolla. Because it is kind of a ‘semi hatchback’ and the seats can completely pull down, allows for way more transport of larger items, which I believe is also a bit wider.

The Prius has some serious heritage, it’s a very cultish vehicle for buyers who would likely never consider a Corolla and Vice-Versa.

 

[Poppymac]

I agree. For the last few years I have lived 1 mile from my place of work, but that has changed and I live in a rural area with essentially NO public transportation network (though, with reference to previous posts here, I think it's worth pointing out that my area used to have both rail service and a streetcar network. All gone with the advent of the automobile). But now I am reliant on an automobile to get to work.

So people are getting squeezed with the costs of driving. Yet in the US we are still suffering a hangover from the decades of cheap gas and unlimited vehicle size. Why else would the big three still be pushing ludicrous landships like Suburbans, Excursions, and Grand Wagoneers that can't manage 20mpg at best and are now creeping past $100k? I'm not saying they shouldn't exist but they should be niche market vehicles, not the aspirational mainstream.

Consumers need to be making more economical choices in order to create demand for the kinds of vehicles we'll need in the future. The criticism of EVs and hybrids as pious virtue signalers is now a very old fashioned perspective, but they are still too expensive on average and greater demand will help push manufacturers even harder to work rectify that. Which isn't to say manufacturers are innocent. They want to make high profit-margin ICE SUVs and trucks, not EVs and more economical cars. That's where regulation comes in, to help push them to think ahead rather than about this quarter.

If you dont have the resources to enjoy the opulent luxury dont knock it. I own the Grand Wagoneer trim level three and it is like taking your living room and favorite massaging recliner for a drive

One elephant in the room with EVs that is starting to be addressed but not fully yet is the issue of taxes.

With ICE vehicles, we have fuel taxes that are supposed to pay for the upkeep of roads. US federal tax is 18.4¢/gallon and my state(Illinois) charges 59.56¢/gallon of gasoline. Although taxing per gallon isn't perfect, it's probably about the most fair way that it can be done without being unecessarily complicated or invasive. I say that because heavier vehicle and/or higher speeds tend to be harder on the roads, and as a general rule both of those correlate with reduced gas mileage. Obviously too the more miles you drive(thus causing more road wear) the more you pay in taxes.

From what I can find, Illinois has attempted to get back some of the lost revenue on EVs by tacking an extra $100/year onto registration. This is still less than what a hybrid getting 40mpg and driving 10,000 miles a year would pay($147/year to the state, plus $47.25 to the Feds) but also doesn't scale with vehicle sizes(the EVs I've actually looked at numbers on are HEAVY) or miles driven.

As EVs become more common in the future, it's an unfortunate fact that the revenue lost from gas taxes will have to come from somewhere. The most obvious way is going to be from finding a way to tax EVs, but IMO to replicate the current model, it would need to at a minimum correct for actual usage(why should someone who drives 1K/year pay the same as someone driving 20K?).

I say all of that to just say that the "free ride" or at least reduced ride for EVs likely will have to be addressed somewhere along the way.

I drive a Grand Wagoneer , top trim level. I am retired and spent a lifetime in the “economical and responsible” vehicles. I commuted and fed my spine to cheap suspensions. Show me an EV that comes close and I will buy it. I will not end my life driving in a Prius. In this car I pick up my 4 grandchildren and all the coolers, beach chairs etc and go to the beach access gate to the oceans edge. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VEHICLE THAT CAN DO THAT (save Rivian which does not have the seating capacity and cargo room). This country need to supply an adequate power grid (ie: not like California with its aging grid and rolling black outs) consider it would take 3 separate vehicle to accomplish what I can do in this land beast. Also consider that I now only drive 7k a year. So all you commuter people ( hang tough retirement will come) driving 30k miles in your economical vehicles are using more fuel than I am. If you want to be fair, limit gas to 5 gallons a week (insane right?) and we all will get our fair piece of the pie. We are in America and free to make choices the suit us. Drive what you like, encourage new technologies and stay out of my garage.

 

[Apple fanboy]

If you dont have the resources to enjoy the opulent luxury dont knock it. I own the Grand Wagoneer trim level three and it is like taking your living room and favorite massaging recliner for a drive

I drive a Grand Wagoneer , top trim level. I am retired and spent a lifetime in the “economical and responsible” vehicles. I commuted and fed my spine to cheap suspensions. Show me an EV that comes close and I will buy it. I will not end my life driving in a Prius. In this car I pick up my 4 grandchildren and all the coolers, beach chairs etc and go to the beach access gate to the oceans edge. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VEHICLE THAT CAN DO THAT (save Rivian which does not have the seating capacity and cargo room). This country need to supply an adequate power grid (ie: not like California with its aging grid and rolling black outs) consider it would take 3 separate vehicle to accomplish what I can do in this land beast. Also consider that I now only drive 7k a year. So all you commuter people ( hang tough retirement will come) driving 30k miles in your economical vehicles are using more fuel than I am. If you want to be fair, limit gas to 5 gallons a week (insane right?) and we all will get our fair piece of the pie. We are in America and free to make choices the suit us. Drive what you like, encourage new technologies and stay out of my garage.

But the car in your garage pollutes our planet. So it’s not reasonable to just say it’s your free choice. Got to move with the times.

 

[bunnspecial]

I drive a Grand Wagoneer , top trim level. I am retired and spent a lifetime in the “economical and responsible” vehicles. I commuted and fed my spine to cheap suspensions. Show me an EV that comes close and I will buy it. I will not end my life driving in a Prius. In this car I pick up my 4 grandchildren and all the coolers, beach chairs etc and go to the beach access gate to the oceans edge. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VEHICLE THAT CAN DO THAT (save Rivian which does not have the seating capacity and cargo room). This country need to supply an adequate power grid (ie: not like California with its aging grid and rolling black outs) consider it would take 3 separate vehicle to accomplish what I can do in this land beast. Also consider that I now only drive 7k a year. So all you commuter people ( hang tough retirement will come) driving 30k miles in your economical vehicles are using more fuel than I am. If you want to be fair, limit gas to 5 gallons a week (insane right?) and we all will get our fair piece of the pie. We are in America and free to make choices the suit us. Drive what you like, encourage new technologies and stay out of my garage.

Where, anywhere, in the post you quoted did I say anything about freedom of choice on vehicles or anything of the like? I don't know why you are quoting me with this post.

BTW, I'm still in the EVs are not for me camp, even though I am a commuter who does about 10K a year just driving in a car that averages ~25mpg. I'll do it in a car I enjoy at least to some extent...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I fully admit I'm having idle fun with this, so please don't take it too seriously. Or do, if you wish.

If you dont have the resources to enjoy the opulent luxury dont knock it.

Because naturally only poor, jealous people could possibly have any reason to criticize such vehicles? Since when is frugality not an American virtue? Now people who value it are assumed to be poor, meddlesome, and glancing at your luxury SUV with envy. Actually my biggest criticism would be that you spent the equivalent of a small home mortgage on a Chrysler - ahem Stellantis - product, but I admit that is merely a matter of opinion.

They haven't had a compelling product since the twin-cam Neon ACR.

I drive a Grand Wagoneer , top trim level.

Top.

I am retired and spent a lifetime in the “economical and responsible” vehicles. I commuted and fed my spine to cheap suspensions.

i.e. has earned the right to their top trim-level opinion.

Show me an EV that comes close and I will buy it.

Likely the all-electric version of the Expedition, presuming the Lighting sells well. Still a few years out, naturally - and probably even more expensive than your opulently luxurious Grand Wagoneer. You might not have the resources for it.

...end my life driving in a Prius.

A fate worse than death! And this from a person who might have lived through the era of the Pinto, the Yugo, or the Cimarron...or possibly even all three!!!!

In this car I pick up my 4 grandchildren and all the coolers, beach chairs etc and go to the beach access gate to the oceans edge. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE VEHICLE THAT CAN DO THAT (save Rivian which does not have the seating capacity and cargo room).

I simply have no idea how we all ever managed to get to the beach in the 132 years between the arrival of the first automobile and the release of the opulently luxurious Grand Wagoneer.

consider it would take 3 separate vehicle to accomplish what I can do in this land beast.

Do you always bring a sectional with side tables with you to the beach?

So all you commuter people ( hang tough retirement will come) driving 30k miles in your economical vehicles are using more fuel than I am. If you want to be fair, limit gas to 5 gallons a week (insane right?) and we all will get our fair piece of the pie.

...but what were you burning during all those hard, right-to-your-opinion-earning years of commuting you mentioned earlier? Aren't we entitled to the same allotment? But unfortunately it won't be a fair comparison, because fuel costs much more now, wages have stagnated, and nothing we can buy today is as dirty and inefficient as the pre-malaise-era cars you may have been commuting in for years. But of course you bought what was available at the time...as have we with our <sneers acidly> economical vehicles (leaving aside those first little Hondas, presumably a fate worse than a fate worse than death, from your perspective).

We are in America and free to make choices the suit us.

Exercising the freedom to choose does not necessarily make the choices themselves unassailable in a discussion on the internet, nor absolve anyone of responsibility for (or the reality of) the consequences of those choices.

Drive what you like, encourage new technologies and stay out of my garage.

Amen. Though, to be fair, it's not hard-working Americans like myself, slowly wearing our own spines out in our own commutes, you ought to fear creeping into your garage. Mohammed bin Salman has a lot more say in what's going on in your garage - and wallet - than anyone here...and he certainly doesn't believe in freedom. Then again, if you don't have the resources - in his case de facto control over an oil state - you can't knock him, eh?

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

The cost of filling the average car with unleaded petrol in the UK has now passed £100. Diesel is £103. More than £50 of that cost is given to the government in tax, yet they can’t offer financial help for inflation rises.

The cost of diesel is now £1.80 to £1.90 a litre. Scary times

 

[SactoGuy18]

I had a scare with my Scion iM a few days ago. I drove over a speed bump just a tad too fast and broke the skid plate on the bottom of the front bumper. I was able to get a temporary fix but will have to pay US$290 to get skid plate and mounting hardware replaced some time this coming week. 😲💸😒

 

[Lord Blackadder]

The cost of filling the average car with unleaded petrol in the UK has now passed £100. Diesel is £103. More than £50 of that cost is given to the government in tax, yet they can’t offer financial help for inflation rises.

The cost of diesel is now £1.80 to £1.90 a litre. Scary times

Locally I am seeing increasing numbers of full-size pickups suddenly getting dumped on the used market and their prices are dropping as a result. Last summer a rusted out and broken 20+ year-old 4WD F-150 or Silverado with over 200k miles would cost you $3-$4k or more, even for the 6-cylinder models. Now they aren't selling as fast or for such inflated prices. Demand for vehicles is still high, and supply low, but people are starting to shy away from the gas-guzzlers, at least for daily drivers. Deja-vu from the credit crunch years but as soon as the economy improves people develop short memories and buy big again.

 

[SactoGuy18]

Locally I am seeing increasing numbers of full-size pickups suddenly getting dumped on the used market and their prices are dropping as a result. Last summer a rusted out and broken 20+ year-old 4WD F-150 or Silverado with over 200k miles would cost you $3-$4k or more, even for the 6-cylinder models. Now they aren't selling as fast or for such inflated prices. Demand for vehicles is still high, and supply low, but people are starting to shy away from the gas-guzzlers, at least for daily drivers. Deja-vu from the credit crunch years but as soon as the economy improves people develop short memories and buy big again.

This is why I am so glad I drive a 2016 Scion iM, despite the unfortunate incident mentioned above. I can get close to 40 miles per US gallon fuel economy going at about 65 mph (circa 105 km/h).

 

[Apple fanboy]

Locally I am seeing increasing numbers of full-size pickups suddenly getting dumped on the used market and their prices are dropping as a result. Last summer a rusted out and broken 20+ year-old 4WD F-150 or Silverado with over 200k miles would cost you $3-$4k or more, even for the 6-cylinder models. Now they aren't selling as fast or for such inflated prices. Demand for vehicles is still high, and supply low, but people are starting to shy away from the gas-guzzlers, at least for daily drivers. Deja-vu from the credit crunch years but as soon as the economy improves people develop short memories and buy big again.

I suspect we will just see more and more switching to EV’s. I certainly am quite relaxed about the fuel price increases.
But unfortunately everything else gets delivered by van or truck, so it’s effecting every price.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Cadillac's next Le Mans entry looks very batmobile-y.

I suspect we will just see more and more switching to EV’s. I certainly am quite relaxed about the fuel price increases.
But unfortunately everything else gets delivered by van or truck, so it’s effecting every price.

The Saudis are increasing production but OPEC are not able to cover the deficit caused by embargoes against Russia. US shale oil producers are taking the profits from current high prices and giving shareholders dividends rather than investing in increased production.

It will be interesting to see if rising costs and a looming threat of recession push some carmakers to accelerate their plans to go electric, leading to more affordable higher-volume EV models.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I fully admit I'm having idle fun with this, so please don't take it too seriously. Or do, if you wish.

I simply have no idea how we all ever managed to get to the beach in the 132 years between the arrival of the first automobile and the release of the opulently luxurious Grand Wagoneer.

I know you say you were having fun with it. But in direct response to the second part I quoted. In the 80's when I was a kid, I used to sleep across the ledge below the rear windshield (or window, whatever you call it).

In the past 132 years, standards have changed. You need a car seat, and/or booster seat now for children less than (age/weight) which is almost up to 12 years old. So, if you have more than 1 kid, say goodbye to your rear seats. Most cars will not fit 3 car seats in the back. If you don't follow the rules, they will take your kids away from you...

I had mentioned, either here or another thread, my wife and I have an e46 BWM (my commuter), B7 A4 (my wife's car), and a Ram Crew Cab. The 3 of us (8 month baby) cannot fit in either car with a rear facing car seat. I'm too tall to have a rear facing car seat behind me, and in both cars, only someone under 5 ft can fit in the front passenger seat with the car seat behind it.

If we are lucky enough to have another kid, it will be 2 cars everywhere, or back to the Ram...

Times have changed...

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Times have changed...

I get that argument, but a couple points:

First, there isn't enough space, money, fuel, or carbon-absorbing forest in the world for everyone with more than one child to drive a Ram or equivalent. So your solution, while it might work for you individually, is not going to work generally. If you don't really care about that, well, you're in good company judging by current consumer behavior. However, gasoline and full-size vehicles are going to continue to get more expensive relative to income no matter what changes politically or economically in the future. You can take that to the bank. So your solution is going to be available to less and less people as time goes on.

Second, there are vehicles intermediate in size between a 3 Series / A4 and a full-size truck - the list is too long to mention, but you do have other options - and some of them are fantastic drivers while also being very fuel efficient to boot. If you plan on keeping three vehicles, one of them at least could fill this niche.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I get that argument, but a couple points:

First, there isn't enough space, money, fuel, or carbon-absorbing forest in the world for everyone with more than one child to drive a Ram or equivalent. So your solution, while it might work for you individually, is not going to work generally. If you don't really care about that, well, you're in good company judging by current consumer behavior. However, gasoline and full-size vehicles are going to continue to get more expensive relative to income no matter what changes politically or economically in the future. You can take that to the bank. So your solution is going to be available to less and less people as time goes on.

Second, there are vehicles intermediate in size between a 3 Series / A4 and a full-size truck - the list is too long to mention, but you do have other options - and some of them are fantastic drivers while also being very fuel efficient to boot. If you plan on keeping three vehicles, one of them at least could fill this niche.

Sure, but you haven't accounted for the additional stuff required for 2 children. My current trunk is unusable with the 1 stroller base for 1 8 month old... If you have to carry a rear facing infant stroller + toddler stroller, even in a full sized car, it's not going to happen. This already limits someone to mid sized SUV's/Minivans or Full Sized.

Now, go on a road trip one time with 2-3 kids under the age of 5, and you pretty much are limited to full sized SUV's... Especially once you also include luggage for 2 adults.

The only way it works the way you make it seem, is a family needs to have a small to midsized vehicle for daily driving and either use 2 over the weekend (when the family goes to the mall) or have a 3rd vehicle capable of carrying everyone. We are lucky enough to have 3 vehicles, but most people don't with 2 drivers.

I guarantee my Ram gets better gas mileage vs taking my e46+B7 A4 at the same time...

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

In the past 132 years, standards have changed. You need a car seat, and/or booster seat now for children less than (age/weight) which is almost up to 12 years old. So, if you have more than 1 kid, say goodbye to your rear seats. Most cars will not fit 3 car seats in the back. If you don't follow the rules, they will take your kids away from you...

Absolutely agree. When I was a child in the 80’s too, we went on holiday and I’d be buried under luggage in the back. My mum would even have luggage under her legs at the front and thankfully small cars have been replaced by bigger affordable cars in the decades since. People saying we just have to go back to ‘smaller cars again’ if we want to afford an EV aren’t really understanding the practical needs in the modern world. Cars have been evolving to maximise space, not go backwards to accommodate huge heavy batteries and cost a small mortgage. The pressure is on the car companies to develop this technology quickly and to a stage where it’s affordable for the millions of drivers to convert over to EV’s.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I guarantee my Ram gets better gas mileage vs taking my e46+B7 A4 at the same time...

Sure, but a Toyota Sienna (for example) would carry everything, ride better, and get far better gas mileage than any of those. And there are a lot of families out there with two kids who do not own full size SUVs/trucks. Those are a convenience/luxury.

Absolutely agree. When I was a child in the 80’s too, we went on holiday and I’d be buried under luggage in the back. My mum would even have luggage under her legs at the front and thankfully small cars have been replaced by bigger affordable cars in the decades since. People saying we just have to go back to ‘smaller cars again’ if we want to afford an EV aren’t really understanding the practical needs in the modern world. Cars have been evolving to maximise space, not go backwards to accommodate huge heavy batteries and cost a small mortgage. The pressure is on the car companies to develop this technology quickly and to a stage where it’s affordable for the millions of drivers to convert over to EV’s.

I remember riding in the way back of the family station wagon and my brothers' primitive child seats. And the black vinyl car seats that fried your skin in the summer. We can't go back to that. But saying we need engineers to whip up something that solves all our problems makes the assumption that problems will be solved primarily through technology, without major behavioral or institutional changes on our part. We want a new gizmo that costs the same (or less) as the current gizmo and lets us keep doing whatever we are doing, but without any of the current drawbacks. That might pan out with the next generations of cars - but it's not guaranteed. We also get used to conveniences and start to act as if they are necessities.

Also, to the 'maximizing space' point - some cars have evolved hugely in that regard. We were on the right track with minivans and hatchbacks but the SUV craze flies in the face of that. SUVs are inherently compromised in packaging terms (as are sedans). EVs do offer some substantial packaging benefits as their heaviest component (batteries and motors) can be shaped much more flexibly and placed at the ideal location (low / in the middle).

I think the long-term future is pretty clear - automobiles will become less affordable. I don't see an alternative to that, because they've been artificially cheap for a long time. How much less affordable is still, of course, an open question.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Absolutely agree. When I was a child in the 80’s too, we went on holiday and I’d be buried under luggage in the back. My mum would even have luggage under her legs at the front and thankfully small cars have been replaced by bigger affordable cars in the decades since. People saying we just have to go back to ‘smaller cars again’ if we want to afford an EV aren’t really understanding the practical needs in the modern world. Cars have been evolving to maximise space, not go backwards to accommodate huge heavy batteries and cost a small mortgage. The pressure is on the car companies to develop this technology quickly and to a stage where it’s affordable for the millions of drivers to convert over to EV’s.

My dad used to drive a van. I used to travel in the back as a child.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Sure, but a Toyota Sienna (for example) would carry everything, ride better, and get far better gas mileage than any of those. And there are a lot of families out there with two kids who do not own full size SUVs/trucks. Those are a convenience/luxury.

I'll take the ride of my Ram over the ride of a minivan. And I am a HUGE fan of minivans.

I'll also take driving my truck when we get snow and I still have to get to work, of if I decide to drive on the beach (which is allowed less than 6 miles from my house), or if I'm towing.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I'll take the ride of my Ram over the ride of a minivan. And I am a HUGE fan of minivans.

I'll also take driving my truck when we get snow and I still have to get to work, of if I decide to drive on the beach (which is allowed less than 6 miles from my house), or if I'm towing.

Not so huge that you own one, though. Everyone needs a full-size truck/SUV these days. There is no ceiling on the capability consumers demand, or, so far, seem willing to pay for. Their daily driver must have the power of a Viper, the interior of a coach, the towing capacity of a Freightliner and the off-road prowess of a Unimog.

I commute daily in a region that gets 250-300 inches of snow a year and I've never, ever gotten stuck in my Fiesta. The idea that you need a truck to drive on snowy roads is simply not accurate, unless your roads never get plowed. During our long winters I see trucks in the ditch all the time - more often than any other type of vehicle. Even lifted ones with huge tires and winches and bull bars and whatnot. Because people think they are more capable than they are. They certainly look impressive. You would not believe the number of times you see two trucks, attached by a tow rope, both in the ditch after a failed 'rescue.' Our local towing company calls them two-for-ones and they love them.

Which isn't to say trucks aren't capable in the snow. For deep snow at low speeds, yeah, much better than a car or crossover - true 4WD, high ride height, plenty of weight if you have your traction sand tubes in. But they might lull you into thinking you can go places you actually shouldn't. They are not superior to a car on snowy/icy roads beyond low speeds. Trucks and SUVs have zero advantage over other vehicles in terms of handling and stopping in those conditions. People tend to underestimate how safe a FWD car is in the snow, and overestimate the safety of AWD/4WD vehicles. Saab and Volvo didn't stick with FWD for so long because they'd never heard of alternatives.

 

[quagmire]

Of course a truck could also be one of the worst vehicles to have in the snow with everyone driving with their beds empty......

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Sure, but a Toyota Sienna (for example) would carry everything, ride better, and get far better gas mileage than any of those. And there are a lot of families out there with two kids who do not own full size SUVs/trucks. Those are a convenience/luxury.



I remember riding in the way back of the family station wagon and my brothers' primitive child seats. And the black vinyl car seats that fried your skin in the summer. We can't go back to that. But saying we need engineers to whip up something that solves all our problems makes the assumption that problems will be solved primarily through technology, without major behavioral or institutional changes on our part. We want a new gizmo that costs the same (or less) as the current gizmo and lets us keep doing whatever we are doing, but without any of the current drawbacks. That might pan out with the next generations of cars - but it's not guaranteed. We also get used to conveniences and start to act as if they are necessities.

Also, to the 'maximizing space' point - some cars have evolved hugely in that regard. We were on the right track with minivans and hatchbacks but the SUV craze flies in the face of that. SUVs are inherently compromised in packaging terms (as are sedans). EVs do offer some substantial packaging benefits as their heaviest component (batteries and motors) can be shaped much more flexibly and placed at the ideal location (low / in the middle).

I think the long-term future is pretty clear - automobiles will become less affordable. I don't see an alternative to that, because they've been artificially cheap for a long time. How much less affordable is still, of course, an open question.

It sounds quite a bleak future for motorists when you put it like that. Motorists staying local, a reduced amount of families travelling for holidays in their own country and a good percentage of people priced out of owning a car altogether. At least it’ll be easier for the wealthy to drive about and less congestion.

I don’t agree with the ‘tough, cars are going to cost £30k to £100k soon, so suck it up’. That’s not a well thought out approach IMO. How many of us work in companies when the lowest wage employees are turning up to work in 20 year old cars because they simply can’t afford anything else? This deadline for forcing us to get EV’s needs to be evaluated depending on the technology available, otherwise we are in for a catastrophic economic crash. I’ll be getting an EV when there is absolutely no other option and hopefully that’ll be when my kids are grown up and we no longer need the necessary space in a vehicle.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Of course a truck could also be one of the worst vehicles to have in the snow with everyone driving with their beds empty......

So true. We used to have a truck at work I borrowed on occasion. Toyota 4x4. It was lethal in the wet when empty let alone snow.