The Failure of the Touchbar MacBook Pros: Emergency Redesign Needed

[SDColorado]

So you don’t understand the difference. Got it.

I clearly see that you are being argumentative solely for the sake of argument. But I believe others have already pointed that out

This is a very reasonable attitude and I respect it very much. Frankly, I'd be happy if all my posts had similarly reasonable stance, but I'm afraid I tend too much to get caught up in the moment



Nothing wrong with that, but I am not sure how much of it is sustainable and how much of it is an illusion. After all, things have to change sometimes...



I'm really sorry it doesn't work for you. We can hope that next iteration of Apple keyboard is something that will be satisfactory to a larger user base.

I am looking forward to the next one. I was hoping this one would be the answer after a couple of years with the 2016. My wife doesn't mind the 2016 as she uses it primarily at home with an external keyboard, but not so with me.

I had heard about the "improvements" made to the 2018 so jumped all over it and gave the 2016 to my wife to replace her aging 2012. But it wasn't the answer I was hoping for in terms of typing experience or reliability. Believe me, I don't just complain on the forums either. I have gone up the "chain" as far as I can about issues I have had with these 2018 models, but have yet to manage a response from Tim Cook himself, only executive relations people "responding on behalf of Tim Cook." I only add that so that you know, I am not just a forum whinner

I will see what comes out in the next model. I stuck with the MBP after returning #4 and giving a few PC's a try, but ultimately could not find anything that I prefer to the MBP, my feelings about the keyboard (typing experience and reliability) aside, but I don't plan to keep it beyond the extent of Apple Care, nor do I plan to keep it any longer than the next redesign if there is a significant change (not gen 4 butterfly) to the keyboard.

But my opinion of the keyboard obviously doesn't reflect the overall userbase. I could live with it with it if came at improved reliability. Otherwise, it is like a bed. I can sleep on anything if I am tired enough. I can type on anything if I have to as well. It just isn't my preference

 

[smallcoffee]

I clearly see that you are being argumentative solely for the sake of argument. But I beleive others have already pointed that out

No, I’m not. You don’t understand the difference and it’s quite obvious. Round-about name calling like you’re doing now is immature.

 

[SDColorado]

No, I’m not. You don’t understand the difference and it’s quite obvious. Round-about name calling like you’re doing now is immature.

I haven't called you a single name in any post.

 

[smallcoffee]

I haven't called you a single name in any post.

You’ve done so, just in a roundabout way: I.e. “argumentative”.

 

[SDColorado]

You’ve done so, just in a roundabout way: I.e. “argumentative”.

If you *honestly* do believe that to be true, please feel free to either ignore me or report me. I am fine with either choice

 

[smallcoffee]

If you *honestly* do believe that to be true, please feel free to either ignore me or report me. I am fine with either choice

I don’t ignore or report people unless they do something pretty egregious.

I don’t understand how you don’t understand the difference between a fact and opinion, and how you handle the two in a discussion. You do understand that if somebody says, as a fact, that less or more of people do something that you can ask fact-based for evidince for that, correct?

 

[Painter2002]

I don’t ignore or report people unless they do something pretty egregious.

I don’t understand how you don’t understand the difference between a fact and opinion, and how you handle the two in a discussion. You do understand that if somebody says, as a fact, that less or more of people do something that you can ask fact-based for evidince for that, correct?

At this point I don't think you see eye to eye about what everyone is saying here, so my suggestion is to let it go before we get derailed well past the point of this thread. No offense, but you have made your point that anecdotal evidence, such as a personal opinions and experience don't count as valid on this thread, yet you keep providing your own anecdotal evidence. Like I said earlier, why not just agree to disagree?

MacRumors is a community of people who love technology, largely that around Apple products, but we won't always agree. Sometimes we just need to let it go on arguments and realize that we don't have to agree, but acknowledge everyone has their own opinions and is allowed to voice those, whether they be from facts or personal opinions and experience.

 

[SDColorado]

I don’t ignore or report people unless they do something pretty egregious.

I don’t understand how you don’t understand the difference between a fact and opinion, and how you handle the two in a discussion. You do understand that if somebody says, as a fact, that less or more of people do something that you can ask fact-based for evidince for that, correct?

You don’t want to understand is the problem. You have made several statements regarding the keyboards throughout this thread with little or no desire to understand the difference between fact or opinion or seek to appreciate how others opinions might be different.

I merely pointed out that you jumped on another user for doing pretty much what you had done several times throughout the thread. But apparently in having done so I have “called you names” in a “round-about way” and have violated some unwritten code of being argumentative in a discussion forum.

What am I supposed to do with that

 

[Painter2002]

I don’t understand how you don’t understand the difference between a fact and opinion, and how you handle the two in a discussion.

The entire reason this has even been a discussion in this thread is because you brought it up, and then proceeded to do the very thing you accused others of doing. That's kind of what they call hypocritical. People are going to feel compelled to call you out over a lack of evidence if you are doing that to them.

 

[smallcoffee]

You don’t want to understand is the problem. You have made several statements regarding the keyboards throughout this thread with little or no desire to understand the difference between fact or opinion or seek to appreciate how others opinions might be different.

I merely pointed out that you jumped on another user for doing pretty much what you had done several times throughout the thread. But apparently in having done so I have “called you names” in a “round-about way” and have violated some unwritten code of being argumentative in a discussion forum.

What am I supposed to do with that

Clearly you don’t understand the difference. I’ve barely talked about the keyboard itself before this started. The person you’re babysitting said something (and I’m paraphrasing) user numbers are dropping because of the keyboard.

This is a statement that can be verified with factual evidence. When you have a discussion and you make a statement like that you may be asked to provide factual information. Which is what I asked for. What I got was an anecdote - that’s not factual information. Sales numbers or something would be supporting evidence. “The 120 people I talk to in India” can be dismissed pretty easily and I even argued a bit in that direction by questioning what kind of workflows can be disrupted by not liking a keyboard as much as a different one. Hell, you (for a time at least) could just buy the 2015 version of the MacBook Pro. Even the anecdote is suspect.

What here isn’t clear to you? Do you understand the difference between sombody saying “lots of people don’t use this anymore” and “I think this is the best”? Do you understand the difference between these statements?
[doublepost=1552324235][/doublepost]

The entire reason this has even been a discussion in this thread is because you brought it up, and then proceeded to do the very thing you accused others of doing. That's kind of what they call hypocritical. People are going to feel compelled to call you out over a lack of evidence if you are doing that to them.

Right. I asked somebody to back the claim they made with factual information because it’s a fact-based claim. We can prove the claim that some number of users has changed, can we not?

Can we prove that the MacBook Pro keyboard is or isn’t the best? No because it’s a subjective statement. It’s a non-sequitor to even try to compare these two statements.
[doublepost=1552324303][/doublepost]

At this point I don't think you see eye to eye about what everyone is saying here, so my suggestion is to let it go before we get derailed well past the point of this thread. No offense, but you have made your point that anecdotal evidence, such as a personal opinions and experience don't count as valid on this thread, yet you keep providing your own anecdotal evidence. Like I said earlier, why not just agree to disagree?

That wasn’t the point I made and claiming that it is, is misrepresenting things that I’ve said.

MacRumors is a community of people who love technology, largely that around Apple products, but we won't always agree. Sometimes we just need to let it go on arguments and realize that we don't have to agree, but acknowledge everyone has their own opinions and is allowed to voice those, whether they be from facts or personal opinions and experience.

What am I supposedly disagreeing with you about?

 

[theluggage]

I disagree, I think more people dislike the keyboard then like, There's way more negativity about the keyboard then any other factor with the laptop.

I think the other factor is that the butterfly keyboard replaced what was, for many people, the Best. Keyboard. Ever. (Unless you are from the "You can have my IBM Model M when you pry it from my surprisingly supple and RSI-free dead fingers" full-travel-or-death camp - but good luck fitting that into a laptop). Nobody was asking Apple to "improve" the keyboard. There was an initial skepticism about 'chiclet' keyboard but I don't recall any moans from people who'd actually tried it complaining. I even junked my conventional desktop keyboards and swapped them with the Apple 'chiclet' keyboards.

3 model years and counting and that hasn't happened, I give apple credit trying the silicone cover, but I think they're fairly closed minded in accepting the fact that the butterfly mechanism is a flawed design.

Trouble is, whatever the specific problems of the butterfly mechanism may be, the root of the problem is that they are so thin and have such short travel that they have zero tolerance for dust - and they're glued in and can't be replaced (again, thin-ness). Fixing the keyboard means making it thicker, and that probably means completely re-tooling the case.

I suspect that they're gonna get their planned 4 years (or whatever) out of the current case design whatever.

What's slightly depressing is that the new Air seems to have the same keyboard, but I guess the design process for that started years ago...

Nobody is ever going to agree on what is the "best" keyboard - but even disregarding any reliability problems, the butterfly keyboard certainly seems to be the "marmite" of the keyboard world (i.e. you either love it or hate it) and you really don't want marmite as the only choice in a laptop where you can't change the keyboard - you want a crowd pleaser.

 

[SDColorado]

Clearly you don’t understand the difference. I’ve barely talked about the keyboard itself before this started. The person you’re babysitting said something (and I’m paraphrasing) user numbers are dropping because of the keyboard.

This is a statement that can be verified with factual evidence. When you have a discussion and you make a statement like that you may be asked to provide factual information. Which is what I asked for. What I got was an anecdote - that’s not factual information. Sales numbers or something would be supporting evidence. “The 120 people I talk to in India” can be dismissed pretty easily and I even argued a bit in that direction by questioning what kind of workflows can be disrupted by not liking a keyboard as much as a different one. Hell, you (for a time at least) could just buy the 2015 version of the MacBook Pro. Even the anecdote is suspect.

What here isn’t clear to you? Do you understand the difference between sombody saying “lots of people don’t use this anymore” and “I think this is the best”? Do you understand the difference between these statements?

See here you go. You accuse ME of name calling "in a round about way" and you keep making baseless and derogatory comments about other users and accusing others of defending him or "babysitting them" while not minding your own poor behavior. Double standard at work again.

Queen6 doesn't need me to babysit him, nor am I or others defending his post, we are merely pointing out that you are equally guilty of making unprovable comments and baseless anecdotes.

You continue to repeat that I and others "don't understand" while others keep telling you that it is YOU who don't understand. When you think everyone else is the problem and everyone keeps pointing the finger back at you, perhaps they are not the ones who lack understanding?

These have been some of your comments regarding the keyboards extracted from posts in this thread.

"I.E. learn to type. The keyboard is far superior to the previous one."
(The you are typing on it wrong talking point)

"Idk how in the world it makes your fingers sore that makes 0 sense if you type properly."
(Because my fingers don't hurt while typing on it, nobody elses should and/or they are typing on it wrong?) Any actualy proof that typing on it "correctly" results in no finger pain for any user? Any evidence that I am typing on mine incorrectly since my fingers do in fact hurt? Am I mashing my keys? Being too gentle? Do I need to adjust my hand position? Change my angle of approach? What am I doing wrong if I am doing it wrong? Do you know? After all these years, it isn't the keyboard that is the problem, it is that I haven't embraced the changes I need to make to type on the new ones properly. Got it.

"Maybe you are literally using it wrong. You don't mash keys."
(Again the typing on it wrong talking point combined with a baseless comment about exactly HOW they are typing on it with no evidence whatsoever that this is actually the case) Do you personally know that user? Have you observed him actually mashing the keys? Is this "literally" just speculation without evidence? Or perhaps he is "literally using it exactly right" and not mashing the keys.

"I use both daily and the newer keyboard is way better. People just don’t like change."
(The people don't like change talking point. I like it so therefore everyone who doesn't must not like change) What do you actually know about how I or others who don't like the keyboard embrace change? Nothing.

"But then you go off the deep end. It's easily a better keyboard"
(So anyone who doesn't think the keyboard is better is going off the deepend? What?)

"Yea but nobody cares about your anecdotes."
Nobody meaning specifically you as you are the only one who has stated that) How many users constitutes nobody?

Yes, us developers do appreciate keyboards - hence why it's nice to have a better keyboard. The 2015 keyboard is basically like typing into a giant bowl of jello compared to the new models."
(All of us developers? Or is that the greater WE who don't like the 2015? Your own preference or are you speaking for developers as a whole? Do you actually KNOW the keyboard preferences of all developers and how many actually prefer 2016+ vs 2015 and earlier?

"I find it tiresome that people go into an Apple store (not you necessarily) and try the keyboard for 5 seconds and declare that it's inferior."

Funny, I find it tiresome that people keep claiming this to be the case.

Again, it is baseless and unprovable, but you keep repeating this claim despite a complete lack of facts that this is actually the case in most circumstances.

It would be my guess that you have actually observed fewer people spend 5 seconds and declare a keyboard inferior than Queen6 has observed professionals leaving Mac for PC in his industry which requires absolute reliability and no option for downtime due to the remote and unfriendly climates he sometimes has to work under. But I can't prove that either.

"Then it seems like they've had a Mac for all the wrong reasons. If a keyboard redesign means you completely switch your workflow, I think that says a lot about your workflow, or priorities."

You know absolutely nothing about another person's reasons for purchasing a Mac, zero, nada. Let alone someone else's workflow or priorities. So why do you even pretend or assume that you do?

Again, I am not trying to babysit or defend Queen6's comment, because I have no idea how accurate his statement is or is not. But neither do you. Thats a fact. Nor do you have any idea of anyone elses reasons for buying, the motives for having done so or their workflows.

You clearly don't agree with the premise of the thread and it obvious. The question is do you now understand why I and others believe it is you who doesn't understand?

But again, it is clear you just want to debate and have the last word, so feel free.

 

[Painter2002]

What am I supposedly disagreeing with you about?

If you have to ask this question then it is clear you have not gotten the point of my comments, or failed to read them and more importantly understand the meaning behind them.

No offense to you personally, but I see it as pointless to engage in any further comment with someone who clearly is not on the same page as I (or other users whom have posted in this thread). I’ll stay active in this thread but I will not comment further on the validity of anecdotal evidence versus facts.

I wish you the best and hope one day you’ll understand how hypocritical it is to call someone out for something (especially saying their opinion or experience doesn’t matter), only to turn around and do the same thing yourself, as that was what my disagreement with you was (since you didn’t glean it from my other posts). Cheers

 

[SDColorado]

If you have to ask this question then it is clear you have not gotten the point of my comments, or failed to read them and more importantly understand the meaning behind them.

No offense to you personally, but I see it as pointless to engage in any further comment with someone who clearly is not on the same page as I (or other users whom have posted in this thread). I’ll stay active in this thread but I will not comment further on the validity of anecdotal evidence versus facts.

I wish you the best and hope one day you’ll understand how hypocritical it is to call someone out for something (especially saying their opinion or experience doesn’t matter), only to turn around and do the same thing yourself, as that was what my disagreement with you was (since you didn’t glean it from my other posts). Cheers

I am guilty of hypocrisy at times as well. I believe we all are, but I am willing to admit that I am. I am no angel in that regard, as @leman so well stated "I'm afraid I tend too much to get caught up in the moment"

But I do try to not be the pot that calls the kettle black and then deny I was ever the pot to begin with. Sometimes I am the pot, sometimes I am the kettle, sometimes I try to point out to other pots and kettles they, in the end, your both cooking utensils.

Like you, I plan to stay in the thread, because I think it is a worthwhile discussion. But I am not going to back and forth on this line of debate. It's become overplayed.

I personally find Queen6's anecdotes to be of interest because he works in an industry and an environment that is a far bit different from what most of us work in. I would be equally as interested in anecdotes and experiences of those who work in say the Antarctic.

 

[Painter2002]

I am guilty of hypocrisy at times as well. I believe we all are, but I am willing to admit that I am. I am no angel in that regard, as @leman so well stated "I'm afraid I tend too much to get caught up in the moment"

But I do try to not be the pot that calls the kettle black and then deny I was ever the pot to begin with. Sometimes we are the pot, sometimes we are the kettle.

Like you, I plan to stay in the thread, because I think it is a worthwhile discussion. But I am not going to back and forth on this line of debate. It's become overplayed.

I personally find Queen6's anecdotes to be of interest because he works in an industry and an environment that is a far bit different from what most of us work in. I would be equally as interested in anecdotes and experiences of those who work in say the Antarctic.

I agree with your points, I am surely guilty of being hypocritical at times, but if someone calls me out on it I’ll usually take a step back and realize they are right. I don’t argue back and forth continuing to with further hypocritical behavior.

The way I see it everyone has valuable input here and whether you believe it, or what value each persons opinion is up to you as a reader, but no need to say someone’s opinion is less and that we as a collective don’t care for another members opinions.

I value all everyone’s opinion here and it many well made comments in Macrumors have made me see things in a different light from before I came here. I still have my opinions, but I am open to reading others, be they factual-based or experience/opinion-based. I simply draw a line where people attack others right to opinion simply because there are not hard facts to support their opinion.

 

[SDColorado]

I agree with your points, I am surely guilty of being hypocritical at times, but if someone calls me out on it I’ll usually take a step back and realize they are right. I don’t argue back and forth continuing to with further hypocritical behavior.

The way I see it everyone has valuable input here and whether you believe it, or what value each persons opinion is up to you as a reader, but no need to say someone’s opinion is less and that we as a collective don’t care for another members opinions.

I value all everyone’s opinion here and it many well made comments in Macrumors have made me see things in a different light from before I came here. I still have my opinions, but I am open to reading others, be they factual-based or experience/opinion-based. I simply draw a line where people attack others right to opinion simply because there are not hard facts to support their opinion.

One of the biggest things I have been guilty of in the past and have been *trying* to do a better job of (not always successfully) is to preface my statements with "It is my opinion" or "it has been my experience" or "it doesn't work for my needs." Such as the keyboard. Certainly, it has its fans and I won't try to make any claims or dispute anyone else's opinion of how popular or unpopular it is with the Mac community in general, because frankly, I have no way of knowing that. But it doesn't work well for *me*.

What percentage of people prefer 2015 and earlier? What percentage prefer 2016 and later? Beats the heck out of me. I won't even try to quantify it, I just know that isn't *my* favorite keyboard. However, it is also not the worst keyboard I have ever tried to use . I would personally rate it a 6/10 for comfort, 5/10 for durability and 3/10 for dependability if I was doing a review. But that amounts to nothing more than my own experiences and preferences and in no way means anyone else who gives it 10/10 across the board is wrong. Same with anyone who gives it 1/10 across the board. If they do are they not giving it a fair chance? Are they mashing the keys? Are they typing on it wrong? Are they "Apple Haters" who don't even own one? Perhaps. But likewise, perhaps those who defend them and go on about how great they are also don't really own one, or are Apple Corporate or Apple Store employees? I have no evidence either is true and most likely neither are.

The problem with the "prove it" debates are that sometimes arguments are impossible to "prove" with facts. It is my opinion that most people prefer outdoor activities in the sunshine rather than rain, based on my personal experiences that I see more people out and about when it is sunny. If you told me to prove it and back that statement up with facts, could I do it? Absolutely not. Does that make my observation worthless? I suppose that depends on who you ask

But otherwise yes, I have at times been hypocritical, I have made negative comments in "Pro" type threads like "The 2018 is the best keyboard ever made" type threads when I should probably just let it go and not "rain on their parade." Again, no angel. But we all get caught up in the moment of how we are feeling at times and if you are on machine #5 and having a keyboard issue where the "E" won't register, it is at times hard to be charitable when its a $4500 machine. I think we can all agree on that. Sometimes you just want to say FU Apple and hurl it against a wall. No, I don't really plan to do that and no I don't need anger management classes or I already would have done so. But nothing wrong with the fantasy of it at times

 

[Queen6]

Time to move on, nor has my opinion changed, as I see far less Mac's about these days simple as that...

Q-6

 

[Painter2002]

Time to move on, nor has my opinion changed, as I see far less Mac's about these days simple as that...

Q-6

Indeed it is. I will even say in my personal experience working out in public locations I still see way more old-gen computers, and very few current-gen MacBook Pros. The few coworkers I have who do use MacBook Pros (business analytics, so most use Windows), refuse to upgrade to newer MacBook lineups because of the reliability concerns.

It’s my belief (thanks for that @SDColorado) that hardcore Mac users may return (or upgrade if they’re still using pre-2016 MBP), once Apple does a full redesign, if Apple does it right this time around. It’s a beautiful machine, but an under-utilized Touchbar, potentially unreliable keyboard and screen are both major turn-offs for people willing to drop serious money on an overly expensive computer.

 

[SDColorado]

Time to move on, nor has my opinion changed, as I see far less Mac's about these days simple as that...

Q-6

That has been my experience as well, but I can't "prove it." I used to see people using Macs all over the place when out and about. Far fewer new ones these days. Still, people holding on to old ones (why not, the older ones are great) and people using a number of various brands. Some I can identify and others I can't, without snooping to hard hahaha.

I know my sister's company is switching from Macs in her department, I can't say which since it is a large corp and what she mentions to use is covered by NDA and can't be repeated publically, so there is a lack of "proof" there as well. I have no idea if that means people are pros are leaving Mac or not. It is merely a "fact" that that department is.

However, she was also a way bigger "fanboi" than I was and I was a self-admitted "fanboi" even a couple of years ago when I purchased my 2016. That announcement came as part of her own email asking if anyone else who had been a "prisoner to Apple" was leaving the garden and if so what alternatives the chose. The comment about her department only came as a question from me about "wasn't she dependant on Apple in her work environment?" and she mentioned that due to that change she no longer had the ties she once had.

It is a bit funny/sad to me in some ways that I was the "cheerleader" getting the whole family onto the Mac platform, starting with my wife and now only she and I remain. My wife will likely bail before I do. First in, last out for me

 

[smallcoffee]

If you have to ask this question then it is clear you have not gotten the point of my comments, or failed to read them and more importantly understand the meaning behind them.

No offense to you personally, but I see it as pointless to engage in any further comment with someone who clearly is not on the same page as I (or other users whom have posted in this thread). I’ll stay active in this thread but I will not comment further on the validity of anecdotal evidence versus facts.

I wish you the best and hope one day you’ll understand how hypocritical it is to call someone out for something (especially saying their opinion or experience doesn’t matter), only to turn around and do the same thing yourself, as that was what my disagreement with you was (since you didn’t glean it from my other posts). Cheers

If you can’t clearly state what I’m supposed to be disagreeing with you about then you’re just being disingenuous. You know that I’m not arguing that people can’t have opinions or whatever nonsense, and you know for a fact that when someone makes a factual claim “people are switching from macOS in large numbers” (paraphrasing) that it is normal discourse for someone to ask for evidence for that claim.

It seems to me you didn’t read the relevant posts before jumping in.

 

[Queen6]

Indeed it is. I will even say in my personal experience working out in public locations I still see way more old-gen computers, and very few current-gen MacBook Pros. The few coworkers I have who do use MacBook Pros (business analytics, so most use Windows), refuse to upgrade to newer MacBook lineups because of the reliability concerns.

It’s my belief (thanks for that @SDColorado) that hardcore Mac users may return (or upgrade if they’re still using pre-2016 MBP), once Apple does a full redesign, if Apple does it right this time around. It’s a beautiful machine, but an under-utilized Touchbar, potentially unreliable keyboard and screen are both major turn-offs for people willing to drop serious money on an overly expensive computer.

For many it the design and rising reliability concerns, others as you say are holding onto older Mac's in the hope to weather the storm. Apple's stance with it's professional audience I believe is sadly all too clear. Next iteration of the MBP will be critical to many and their upcoming decisions.

They are indeed beautiful machines, equally heavily flawed pity really as it doesn't need to be that way. Problem is Apple has very much backed itself into a corner with the MBP and people will be far more cautious of Apple as it seems to be getting ever worse at listening.

Q-6

 

[smallcoffee]

Time to move on, nor has my opinion changed, as I see far less Mac's about these days simple as that...

Q-6

Lol. The number of Mac users isn’t a matter of opinion so there’s nothing to be changed.

 

[Queen6]

That has been my experience as well, but I can't "prove it." I used to see people using Macs all over the place when out and about. Far fewer new ones these days. Still, people holding on to old ones (why not, the older ones are great) and people using a number of various brands. Some I can identify and others I can't, without snooping to hard hahaha.

I know my sister's company is switching from Macs in her department, I can't say which since it is a large corp and what she mentions to use is covered by NDA and can't be repeated publically, so there is a lack of "proof" there as well. I have no idea if that means people are pros are leaving Mac or not. It is merely a "fact" that that department is.

However, she was also a way bigger "fanboi" than I was and I was a self-admitted "fanboi" even a couple of years ago when I purchased my 2016. That announcement came as part of her own email asking if anyone else who had been a "prisoner to Apple" was leaving the garden and if so what alternatives the chose. The comment about her department only came as a question from me about "wasn't she dependant on Apple in her work environment?" and she mentioned that due to that change she no longer had the ties she once had.

It is a bit funny/sad to me in some ways that I was the "cheerleader" getting the whole family onto the Mac platform, starting with my wife and now only she and I remain. My wife will likely bail before I do. First in, last out for me

I don't think all professional's or businesses are dropping Apple, however there's certainly fewer about likely related to design & reliability. Only Apple really knows the sales number although it did release a couple of years back the number of professionals it perceived were using the Mac, it wasn't a big percentage then and likely a good deal less now...

TBH Apple's not terribly invested in the Mac now, it shows, with iPhone & Services taking the limelight.

Q-6

 

[SDColorado]

For many it the design and rising reliability concerns, others as you say are holding onto older Mac's in the hope to weather the storm. Apple's stance with it's professional audience I believe is sadly all too clear. Next iteration of the MBP will be critical to many and their upcoming decisions.

They are indeed beautiful machines, equally heavily flawed pity really as it doesn't need to be that way. Problem is Apple has very much backed itself into a corner with the MBP and people will be far more cautious of Apple as it seems to be getting ever worse at listening.

Q-6

I am still holding out hope, while realizing it is nothing more than a “pipe dream”, for the rumored 16.whatever” redesign to the the iMac Pro type treatment. Workstation type with thicker chassis, better thermals, more reliable and completely redesigned keyboard. Even if it is to be a butterfly, blow it up Apple and start over rather than add “fixes” that only kick the can down the road. No adding a ribbed condom this time, naming it Gen. 4 and declaring it solved.

I do have to admit to missing my 17”. It was big, it was a brick, but maybe it was my favorite MBP to date. Well not even maybe, which is what I kept it so long while parting with newer ones. But it was getting long in the tooth and sought value in a trade-in while it still had some.

I do worry about the resale of the current crop, because even my 17” the common question was about the GPU issues and whether I had had them and if so had they been addressed. I feel those questions hurt the resale value and perhaps the fact I didn’t have them and so therefore it hadn’t had a recent repair was actually worse than if I had? Dunno.

TBH Apple's not terribly invested in the Mac now, it shows, with iPhone & Services taking the limelight.

Q-6

I believe that is evident by the redesign and redistribution of products at the Apple Stores. The used used to be primarily Mac computers, now it’s a tiny section along one wall, used primarily for people to wait for employees to bring out their iDevices and accessories from the back.

They used to have some nice programs for beginning and experienced/professionals. One to One and the personalized concierge/shopping experience for new users where you could make an appointment to have a one on one shopping experience with a “Mac Expert” at set time or get one on one training on how to use it including Apple software such as the Work suite, Aperture, Final Cut, etc. both dropped.

They also used to have an Apple Care program for business/professionals that I can’t recall the name of off the top of my head (anyone remember?). It gave you a access to a longer calendar/number of days in which to set an appointment, priority service with quicker turn around on repairs and advanced exchange on online orders/returns. Apple claims they no longer do the latter, but it depends who you ask and how. It was an annual premium service, but it was worth it to professionals who depended on quicker priority service and advanced exchanges, so worth every penny to some.

But like One to One, personal shopper and sadly Aperture, all gone.

Now the stores are mostly iDevices with people milling about over phones and “try on tables” for watch bands.

The Mac Pro still missing in action, iMac growing long in the tooth and iMac Pro being an overpriced desire for many of us.

I am sure someone will try to claim “If you really needed an iMac Pro you would figure out a way to afford one.” But there are varying degrees of needs and wants. I want a Bugatti too, but go ahead and ask my wife if I am ever going to get one hahaha

 

[notabadname]

By no means it’s the best laptop. That I would go say buy X windows laptop because they are flat out a better value spec to cost ratio. Reason why I have a MacBook is the better OS though and it’s just flat out better for my needs.

Price has nothing to do with “best” objectively. The “best” is simply a measure of all the perfomance, features and quality aspects of a product (among other things that could be listed). In automobiles, the best Sedan will probably cost you $100,000 or more, the best value may be for $40,000 with many of the Best’s features, but not as high quality in fit, performance or finish. Laptops are the same. The best is usually not the best value in most people’s eyes.So being an excellent value does not make a Windows laptop the best. And honestly, similarly spec’ed, they are really any better value.