I know this post is almost a year old but the new keyboard is significantly far worse than the old one wtf.
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The Failure of the Touchbar MacBook Pros: Emergency Redesign Needed
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I disagree. I think it’s way better. I use both daily and it’s like going from typing on a moldy sponge to typing on a responsive keyboard. I think most who have “tried it” have limited experience.
You're in the minority then. I use both quite often, and there is definitely far less travel on the new keyboards, and they feel as if you're typing on wood. It's genuinely awful, in my opinion.
I think two repair programs and likely a 3rd for the 2018 keyboards, will put you on the wrong side of history for that claim, other than personal opinion. YOU prefer the new keyboards and think it's way better. Not saying your alone in that feeling, but there is no evidence to support it being "way better" other than your own personal preference.
The bit about "I think most who have "tried it" have limited experience. Well, see your own comments about anecdotes with no evidence.
Um, yes? Perhaps it says that people greatly value the keyboard on their laptop computers?
Makes the MBP impractical for professional use as it has a known design flaw that results in down time for the sake of the aesthetic. I stuck with a 12" Retina MacBook for over 2 years and came to loath the keyboard. It's fine for tapping out shorter emails and messages, writing heavy technical documents just becomes a chore. The key's jamming simply a pleasure when your using as a business portable, needless to say it's gone nor replaced by another Mac.
Rate Tim & Co is going the next MBP keyboard will be yet another additional purchase, adding yet another dongle to Apple's already impressive collection required to attain basic use on a "Pro" notebook. Apple needs to stop believing it's own BS and get back to basics, equally...
Q-6
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So if you don’t like something, it automatically mean that everyone disagreeing with you is in minority? Plenty of people like the new keyboard. Plenty dislike it. Most users don’t care either way. Personally, I never want to go to the wobbly keys of pre-touchbar Macs. The current keyboard is by far my favorite.
No, but it seems most people do hate the keyboard. Its a rarity that some folks really like the keyboard. I tend to see those people who defend apple at all cost, say they love the keyboard and then most other normal users mostly hate it.
I myself didn't hate the keyboard, I more less tolerated it, but I'm of the opinion that its hard to deny that the keyboard is not reviled but most people.
More like some people hate the keyboard and shout about it at every possible opportunity. Don’t forget that I do run an IT for a group that comprises approx half a hundred users. I regularly ask for feedback about the work machines. It is indeed the case that some users voiced strong dislike of the keyboard, but there were at least as many enthusiastic responses and funniest of all, the reaction of most users to the question was “oh, is there something special about the keyboard? I didn’t notice”.
I think that we can agree about the 2016 redesign being one of the most polarizing redesigns in Apples history (except maybe Air, but that was a new product). Many of the elements, be it all out USB-C, the touchbar, the thinner chassis (that some irrationally associate with lower performance) or the keyboard - had put it some of the loyal Apple customers and triggered a strong negative reaction. Then again, it’s a normal process of change and based on Apples financial reports, their new laptops sell well and generate plenty of interest. I see no need in over-interpreting this.
Of course, all this is orthogonal to the fact that Apple should improve its game and fix some if it’s outstanding deficiencies.
I dunno. I don’t meet a lot of people in real life who don’t like it, or maybe they just don’t care enough to talk about it. This forum is a very vocal minority.
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Um, no? Workflow > keyboard. I can’t do business with one of those. The worst case with the other is I have to get a Bluetooth keyboard.
I disagree, I think more people dislike the keyboard then like, There's way more negativity about the keyboard then any other factor with the laptop. Personally I don't care if people like or hate the keyboard. What bothers me the most is people spending a lot of money only to have many of the face a keyboard that has failed.
3 model years and counting and that hasn't happened, I give apple credit trying the silicone cover, but I think they're fairly closed minded in accepting the fact that the butterfly mechanism is a flawed design. For many reasons, I, like many other long time apple fans are moving on.
Apple may continue to enjoy great sales for the MBP, but I think apple has lost some of its core fans.
When I say that I think it’s way better I was referring to the typing experience. It does seem they’ve had problems (as I’ve agreed with in previous posts on this subject).
Are you intentionally mischaracterizing what I said? Or do you not understand what a fact is versus an anecdote, and how a discussion works? I said that I think the keyboard is better, not that most people, or some number of people think it’s better. One of those is just my opinion, the other is something that, if asked, I’d have to back up with some sort of evidence.
You do clearly understand the distinction, right?
I really like the keyboards in terms of feel, but can’t defend the terrible reliability, I honestly think it’s shameful from Apple. I’ve always liked this design for typing feel since it debuted and I find going back to the previous-gen MBP really difficult to type on - its so mushy and imprecise. But keyboards are such a personal thing, so I get why people might not like them.
What’s utterly baffling is that they have the brilliant (and very reliable) Magic Keyboard design sitting there which I think they should have used.
There has to be a new keyboard design in the new MBPs because this is as-damaging a thing for Apple’s reputation as I can ever remember.
What’s utterly baffling is that they have the brilliant (and very reliable) Magic Keyboard design sitting there which I think they should have used.
There has to be a new keyboard design in the new MBPs because this is as-damaging a thing for Apple’s reputation as I can ever remember.
I wouldn't say it is a normal, or desired process of change. That's downplaying the issue here. To properly wrap that up in context - much of this generation's change that first occurred at the 2016 year was guided by principles of aestheticism and resulted in a lot of discontent. If I were to downplay change as progress, I could say all major wars were part of progress, which makes it seem like we should just accept atrocities for the sake of change.
Mischaracterizing you? Not at all. You jumped all over a fellow forum member for making a claim you felt he lacked the evidence to back up. But you have made a couple of unprovable statements regarding the keyboards.
While I agree you used "I think" to preface one...
These aren't statements of fact. The first is your own personal opinion (if you truly even hold that opinion) without having any knowledge of how long people have "tried" the keyboard. As for the second, other than your own personal opinion (which you did not preface the quote by saying it was) what makes the new keyboard "significantly better than the 2015 model and prior? The fact that *you* prefer them makes them superior?
Those kinds of statements are no more correct or provable than if I made the claims:
"I think most who defend the new keyboards have little to no experience with them."
"That says nothing about the keyboard (which is markedly inferior to the 2015 and prior").
With the exception that the keyboard repair programs already in place and likely a soon to be third one for 2018, would lend at least a little credence to my second "claim."
I am not going to make claims of what I "think" others experience has been with the keyboard. I have no way of knowing. Nor am I going to try to claim one is significantly better than the other. Sticking to facts only, the new keyboards have been problematic in ways the previous ones were not.
It is my own personal opinion, that the new ones are in no way "significantly better" than 2015 and prior and are in many ways inferior, but clearly, some do like and prefer them.
My own experience with the new keyboards is similar to that of @maflynn. I tolerate them. I have had a 2016 since launch and tolerated. I find my 2018, of which I have also had one since launch, to be slightly better but still only tolerable. I find the key travel to short, the keys themselves cheap, thin and flimsy feeling, the wear even on this 3 months old one to be alarming and the overall typing experience to be akin to taping my fingers on a table. In addition to that, I have already had issues with 2 2018 models having keyboard problems. One returned and another temporarily "fixed" by having to repeatedly mash the key until it began to work again. Inexcusable for a $4500 machine.
Unknowable comments about peoples experience and even worse claims such as Leman's "More like some people hate the keyboard and shout about it at every possible opportunity" are simply being dismissive of others preferences and experiences.
If people like the new keyboards and prefer them. That is great news for them. Use them, enjoy them, love them!
But that doesn't mean that there aren't those who will disagree, regardless of experience. Or have a different opinion or impression. It also doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't like them is just repeating an echo chamber of dislike.
Not at all meaning you or any particular person in this thread or any other by this comment, but it is a shame that people can't simply express dislike or negative opinions of the Apple products they spent (a lot) of their hard earned money on and use daily, without people accusing them of being haters, being dismissive of them and accusing them of repeating the "echo chamber" of negativity.
This thread hasn't been half as bad as the "Abandoning Ship" thead which has just gotten bizzare at times.
"I think most who have “tried it” have limited experience."
The way that you worded this point makes it sound like most people would like it if they had more experience with it, that they don't like it because they didn't use it long enough to get used to it. It's kind of implied by your wording that most people would like it with enough experience with it.
Not saying your opinion is right or wrong, but @SDColorado is not trying to mischaracterize what you are saying, just calling out that your wording does imply that.
I personally am ok with the keyboard, but I do like the traditional keyboards better with further travel. I mostly use a bluetooth keyboard on my 2017 MacBook Pro for that reason (and I have my Mac docked most of the time).
Well I can tell you that isn’t what’s I said or intended so that should be clear now for you, correct?
They introduce iterative improvements to certain weak points. And it seems to work, since at least subjectively, reports on keyboards defect are much rarer for the 2018 model. I am not really sure what you expected them to do? Completely scrap the entire chassis? These things take time, and I am sure that the next redesign will introduce significant keyboard changes. And as to "closed minded", I think that Apple is better aware of the situation than any of us, since they have much more data.
I think you might be taking that analogy a bit too far... why take war? Take instead basic things like universal civil rights, opportunity equality etc. — how much resistance is there still agains these very basic and reasonable things, simply because certain groups of people feel that they would be threatening the world as they know it. But that is starting to get very polemical, I certainly don't want to compare the MacBook Pro redesign to struggle for equality
In more seriousness, every change has to overcome the inertia of the previous habit and also previous mindset. This is felt especially sharply when the change is as fundamental as moving to a new physical connectivity standard or removing certain legacy components or features. And it's not the first time we see this. There were loud complain and objections when MBA was released, when the 17" was canceled, when App Store came to Mac, when Apple decided to visually streamline the scroll bars, when they removed the DVD slot, when the first retina Mac was released — and so on and so forth. I've been on these forums long enough. People always complain about everything when something new comes out
Ah, thats where I'd disagree. To me, the changes were all about streamlining. It's a perfectly symmetrical laptop, which used cutting edge tech at the time and a redesigned internals, which allow it to be more mobile without sacrificing performance or battery. I consider the 2016 MBP the logical apex of Apple's laptop design, it perfectly combines minimalism and functionality. Frankly, I am wondering where they want to take the design from here, since I really don't know how they could improve it (again, fixing some of the reliability issues notwithstanding).
The thing about 2016 MBP what makes it this polarising is simply the amount of radical changes. And of course, every of these changes invites criticism. Combine it with the later discovered keyboard reliability issues, and you have a great target to fire shots at. Given the popularity and impact of Apple, firing shots at it is particularly rewarding, there are people who literally make money from it on youtube
I really liked your post and I agree with most of its content. But I can't shake the feeling that your rhetoric is at least a bit biased here towards your own view. My reply (which you quoted) is admittedly snarky, but I think that one can forgive me for being snarky replying to statements along the lines "the majority fo users hates the new keyboard because me and some other dudes on the forums say so".
I am fully aware that there are people who dislike the new keyboard, just as there are people who don't see a point in HiDPI screens ,or having modern connectors, or laptop portability. You can't make everyone happy.
This is strange, since my impression is quite the opposite. I feel that these days, you can't say anything positive about some of the recent changes, since there will immediately an army of critics telling you how you are in minority and how everyone hates these Macs. I find it increasingly difficult to have constructive discussions since rational arguments, empirical data, and taking the larder context into account don't seem to be welcome that much. Baseless generalisations, unwillingness to learn the technical aspect of the discussed topic, shutting down the opponents are commonplace. Was it ever different? No idea, maybe the member structure on the forums has changed. But I've been here long enough and I am also a fairly active user, and I can definitely claim that I feel a change in the overall tone — one that I really dislike.
That is a bit of a backhanded compliment to say that you like and agree with my post but complain about the rhetoric being biased toward my own view. Of course, it is as are yours. Your admittedly "snarky" comment as a case in point
My views are the only views I know for certain and can unequivocally state my feelings for. When I state my own views/biases I am not attempting to project what others like or feel or make any claims about their experiences or lack thereof or whether or not they are repeating an echo chamber either pro or con.
My views are based on my experiences, my likes, my dislikes, my issues/problems, etc. I have no idea how long you, @maflynn, @Painter2002, @Queen6 or anyone else has "tried" the new keyboards and why would I even try to guess or state what I "think" may be the case. I can all but guarantee my guess would be wrong.
Honestly, I believe if you feel that way you are maybe hanging out in the wrong threads. The vast majority of threads in this sub-section are Pro-Apple/Mac and the few that aren't seem to eventually get hijacked with the "haters" getting beaten into submission.
I have owned nothing but Apple products for the past 12 or so years and still own nothing but with the exception of one Surface Pro, but have been accused of being a "hater," been told to find another thread and/or board, been told my "rhetoric" doesn't belong on a pro-mac forum. Why? Because I am unhappy with a couple of aspects of a brand I otherwise am happy with and have been a loyal customer of? I believe @maflynn can vouche for those kinds of comments, because I have seen the same levied at him since he purchased a Lenovo, really actually more so because some folks seem to feel that because he is a mod, he can't own another product or not be 100% pro-Apple/MBP
You say you feel the opposite, I am getting to the point where I am disliking posting in these kinds of threads because it is just a matter of time before someone comes along to tell everyone how the issue is overblown, it all just the echo chamber, people repeating stuff with little to no experience, people just echoing what others have said.
What is wrong with just not liking everything about a product? I have loved every Mac and Apple product I have owned up until this one. There are also many things I love about this one, which is why I am on number 5. But there are also some things I don't, including issues I have had with #5, which lends to some buyers remorse and degree of anti-2018 MBP rhetoric.
But I do try (not always successfully, but I am trying) to not leave negative comments in the pro-MBP threads and I think there are some folks who visit threads (Abandoning Ship) as the prime example, that need to try to do a better job of not bashing/minimizing everyone who isn't 100% happy.
I understand it is a "fan" forum. But not every "fan" is 100% happy, 100% of the time. Sometimes people just need the space to blow off a little steam and express what they are unhappy about, without being told that they are wrong, or they are overblowing the issue, or they are "holding it wrong" or they "just need to get used to it" or "don't like change". Just a few of the various comments from posters (again not anyone in this thread or on this topic).
Again, the baseless generalizations are a two-way street. I don't know if you recall in a previous keyboard thread (I can't recall the users name and I would likely get a note if I mentioned it anyway), but there was a user who was calling everyone who didn't agree with the new keyboards being the best ever "liars" and fanatically so. Someone would comment that they didn't like it and he would respond with something along the lines of "LIAR! You don't even own one."
You see the generalizations of "I think people who don't like the keyboard or don't like the touchbar just don't like change." or "anyone who doesn't like the new keyboards hasn't spent enough time with them to get used to them" or "The issues are all overblown" or "people just come to forums to complain and most users are happily using their computers."
Other oft-repeated generalizations are about how all PC's are garbage and don't hold a candle to Apple, Windows is a virus hell and nothing but problems, and other generic anti-pc/windows "talking points"
Any or all of these statements can be true in whole or in part, but none of us have any way to know that or to what degree that they are true or not for any particular user.
Also, two things can be true at once. The new keyboards CAN be the best keyboards that Apple has ever offered and ALSO be the worst. Some people absolutely LOVE the typing experience on the new keyboards, others LOATH it. Probably the majority fall into varying degrees of like to accept. I personally fall into the latter. I don't hate it, but I don't particularly like it either. But I could better live with it if they haven't shown to be so problematic.
That said, I have never had my fingers ache after using a keyboard the way this one makes my fingers ache.
But hey, my fingers, my problem right?
With that, I am out. Peace!
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Making a statement like that is implicitly an opinion. Making a claim that some number has changed is a factual claim.
Do you understand the difference?
I understand that you seem to want to argue a fine point on something you have accused others of doing. One user gave his opinion and you were all over him, but your opinion needs no evidence.
The difference is in the standard.
This is a very reasonable attitude and I respect it very much. Frankly, I'd be happy if all my posts had similarly reasonable stance, but I'm afraid I tend too much to get caught up in the moment
Nothing wrong with that, but I am not sure how much of it is sustainable and how much of it is an illusion. After all, things have to change sometimes...
I'm really sorry it doesn't work for you. We can hope that next iteration of Apple keyboard is something that will be satisfactory to a larger user base.
That’s too bad. I don’t think 15 minutes in the store is enough time to like or dislike a keyboard (at least for me). I wouldn’t be able to work if I had to switch from macOS or Linux.