The Failure of the Touchbar MacBook Pros: Emergency Redesign Needed

[cfdlab]

It is basically the same keyboard as the 2016 model except for a condom. People seem to forget apple has a repair program, here it is

https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/

It is not a normal failure case, it is a major design flaw. Apple does not offer such repair program just to be nice. They screwed up massively.

This repair program doesnt include the 2018 model because apple is waiting out to see how the condom works out. Like many of us apple is also hoping it will work out so they dont have to extend the repair program to the 2018 models. Time will tell.

I have heard people say, even on these forums, some keys dont work sometimes, but they will just put up with it. So the failure numbers reported in the media dont reflect the true number of failures out there, because many people just put up with it, because maybe they dont do much typing.
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Not wanting to wade into brand vs brand or MacOS vs Windows territory, but the Lenvo X1 Extreme got it *mostly* right for thin and light form factor with their array of ports.

2x USB-C TB3, 2X USB-A 3.1 (1 always on for recharging), 4-1 SD Card Reader, HDMI. Where they got it maybe a little wrong was the mini-ethernet port that requires an adapter, but they manged a good selection of ports in a thin and light design.

Elimintating all other port types, when you are a brand that only makes up about 10% of the laptop market sales, runs a bit counter to what the other 90% of the market doing. I am sure it also runs counter to what at least some percentage of Apples own customers wanted, needed or would have prefered.

The Thinkpad P1 also looks very nice, a good replacement for 15 inch mbp. I will get one (will run Linux) as soon as I come into some money, though I also have an mbp coming soon since I need it for some of my work.

 

[SDColorado]

The Thinkpad P1 also looks very nice, a good replacement for 15 inch mbp. I will get one (will run Linux) as soon as I come into some money, though I also have an mbp coming soon since I need it for some of my work.

I believe the P1 and X1 Extreme are basically the same computer as far as chasis goes? The difference being the ECC Memory and Quadro graphics inside for the P1 while the Extreme has GTX 1050 Ti.

 

[Queen6]

Not wanting to wade into brand vs brand or MacOS vs Windows territory, but the Lenvo X1 Extreme got it *mostly* right for thin and light form factor with their array of ports.

2x USB-C TB3, 2X USB-A 3.1 (1 always on for recharging), 4-1 SD Card Reader, HDMI. Where they got it maybe a little wrong was the mini-ethernet port that requires an adapter, but they manged a good selection of ports in a thin and light design.

Elimintating all other port types, when you are a brand that only makes up about 10% of the laptop market sales, runs a bit counter to what the other 90% of the market doing. I am sure it also runs counter to what at least some percentage of Apples own customers wanted, needed or would have prefered.

Certainly in my realm it's like an exodus as the 2016 design simply works against peoples real working needs, nor do many now trust Apple after well over 2 years of the current nonsense with the Butterfly that "just doesn't work" keyboard.

Some of these guy's have spent their entire career on Mac's, nor are they switching platforms out of boredom. Apple's poor design, lack of openness, trying to be different for the sake of it and failing, with a design philosophy that's best described as "stuck in the sand".

Independant professional's have the luxury of choosing their hardware, once the MBP was the weapon of choice for many, today it's just dropping off the radar and for good reason...

Q-6

 

[3NV7]

Having an adult dialog would have to include an acceptance that not everyone who dislikes the new keyboard is just afraid of change or doesn’t have any more than 15 minutes experience with it. That some people have tried and used these keyboards over months and over years.

Indeed. I have a 2017 MBP that's been my daily driver for over a year now. I've more than "given it a chance."

Pulled my 2012 MBP out of storage recently and was struck by how much better the 2012's keyboard felt.

 

[agoago]

Tim Cook sucks. This problem will never happen with Steve

Returned my macbook pro 2 days after purchase.

 

[smallcoffee]

Some of these guy's have spent their entire career on Mac's, nor are they switching platforms out of boredom.

Then it seems like they've had a Mac for all the wrong reasons. If a keyboard redesign means you completely switch your workflow, I think that says a lot about your workflow, or priorities.

Independant professional's have the luxury of choosing their hardware, once the MBP was the weapon of choice for many, today it's just dropping off the radar and for good reason...

Q-6

Any data to back this up?

 

[Queen6]

Then it seems like they've had a Mac for all the wrong reasons. If a keyboard redesign means you completely switch your workflow, I think that says a lot about your workflow, or priorities.

No they need reliability and performance, simple as that, as do I. It's lot more than just a poorly designed keyboard. Your statement speaks volumes of your lack of understanding more than anything else. Personally I've always worked cross platform so "I don't have a dog in the fight" as I can work effectively in OSX, W10 or Linux. Priority is the tools working for you not, placing one at a disadvantage.

Any data to back this up?

Over two decades with the Mac, countless other independent engineers and visiting hundreds of engineering centres per annum. Last trip to Malaysia; Five weeks over 120 contractors & sub contractors Mac count zero. Five years back many independents and smaller companies ran their business's on the Mac, as did I. Said it before and I'll say it again "I've never seen so many drop the Mac professionally" it's an exodus simple as that.

Clear enough...

Q-6
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I've owned every single Apple laptop made. I'm a collector. I've used them and taken almost all of them apart. I have iBook Clamshells, a Powerbook 2400c, PowerBook Pismos and Wallstreets, MacBook Airs, and many more.

So, I had a Retina MBP 2014 15". Great laptop. I used it a lot. Had the dual graphics cards. Sold it last year and bought a loaded 15" Touchbar MacBook Pro that I've been using as my main computer.

Over the past 8 months, I've tried to like this computer and use it. I wordsmith a lot, but also work with presentation and some graphic stuff.

I hate this computer.

There are things I like about it, like the screen and the design. But that doesn't counteract what's wrong with it. For starters, the keyboard is horrible. I struggle typing on it everyday. And the battery life is terrible. I see that the capacity is only around 6500 mah vs the rMBPs at around 8500 mah.

• The keyboard sucks. It's the most frustrating experience typing on this thing. Lots of errors because the keys are too close together and the travel is so shallow it's like typing on a wooden table.
• Battery life plain sucks thanks to the reduced capacity.
• The Touchbar is just a useless gimmick: I'm not going to take my eyes off the screen and look down at this pixelated mess of a thing, especially when I can: 1) Use onscreen UI elements. 2) Use keyboard shortcuts. 3) Use the trackpad gestures.
• The trackpad is too large as to create waste. By the way, typing waste, I had to go over it 3 times because keys weren't registering and there were mistypes.

So here's what I've done. Bought a new 15" rMBP mid-2015 yesterday and will use it for heavy typing and try and keep using this because I paid so much money for it and it is somewhat powerful.

I realize that there are some people who may like the Touchbar or even the keyboard, but I suspect that the list of those people is few.

My perspective... is that Apple needs a redesign asap. Without delay. It's clear to me that nobody really took ownership of this product other than Jony Ive and his Touchbar nonesense. How could this pass testing and product design reviews unless it's an environment of design by committee and politics. Steve Jobs, the person who would say it sucks and no, is long gone...

Just maybe Apple is waking up with the rumour of the 16" MBP, equally if it's another JokeBook FoolMe few will have sympathy for Apple's stupidity...

Q-6

 

[smallcoffee]

No they need reliability and performance, simple as that, as do I. It's lot more than just a poorly designed keyboard. Your statement speaks volumes of your lack of understanding more than anything else. Personally I've always worked cross platform so "I don't have a dog in the fight" as I can work effectively in OSX, W10 or Linux. Priority is the tools working for you not, placing one at a disadvantage.

Lack of understanding of what?

Over two decades with the Mac, countless other independent engineers and visiting hundreds of engineering centres per annum. Last trip to Malaysia; Five weeks over 120 contractors & sub contractors Mac count zero. Five years back many independents and smaller companies ran their business's on the Mac, as did I. Said it before and I'll say it again "I've never seen so many drop the Mac professionally" it's an exodus simple as that.

Clear enough...

Yea but nobody cares about your anecdotes. It could just be the companies making poor decisions. For example, if these 120 contractors previously used Macs and now they don't, it means poor management because you shouldn't have bought more expensive machines for work that doesn't require them. That says nothing about the keyboard (which is significantly better than the 2015 model and prior - I have one for work and a personal one and I use both interchangeably all day).

 

[flehman]

Best Apple laptop I ever owned was the Pismo...seems like forever ago. Obviously very dated design and internals by today's standards, but for the time the build quality, user experience, and upgradeability was so satisfying. You could pull the keyboard right off the top and upgrade the CPU (was on a daughter card), hard drive, RAM, etc. very easily. You could add the Airport Card. It did weigh more than my cat though. There has to be a better balance between weight/thickness on the one hand and durability/upgradeability on the other.

 

[jinnyman]

I pretty much believe the core reason behind Apple's Touch Bar is to justify the increase in price.
It should have been an additional bar above function keys so that both shortcut centric users and casual users would have been satisfied.

The keyboard reliability issue is the different story, and I'm not going to go there here.

 

[LogicalApex]

I pretty much believe the core reason behind Apple's Touch Bar is to justify the increase in price.

Apple doesn’t need to do anything to justify price increases. They have raised prices across the board for everything new.

The Touch Bar is likely very much connected to their need to find a future for their computing business as it starts to converge with mobile. People here are stuck looking at computing from a historical perspective that Apple has to look beyond.

I am convinced that the Touch Bar is Apple's initial push on that front. It will be interesting to see how macOS 10.15 leverages it with the planned move to integrate macOS and iOS a bit closer. For Apple they need to make bets over a longer period of time since their expensive proposition means users tend to own their devices for a longer period of time. Whatever they do for iOS integration will need access to more than just the machines released in 2019+. They also have to deliver something better than the failure that MS delivered with Windows 8/Windows Phone 8.

The Touch Bar can end up being seen as a failure who knows (although I enjoy it a lot), but they absolutely need to experiment for all our sake. As without experimentation to find a future where traditional computers are an integral part we'll be stuck purely with iPads. I see that as a bigger loss than enduring a Touch Bar.

 

[Queen6]

Lack of understanding of what?



Yea but nobody cares about your anecdotes. It could just be the companies making poor decisions. For example, if these 120 contractors previously used Macs and now they don't, it means poor management because you shouldn't have bought more expensive machines for work that doesn't require them. That says nothing about the keyboard (which is significantly better than the 2015 model and prior - I have one for work and a personal one and I use both interchangeably all day).

I'm sure Apple does as it reflects badly, as will you one day...

Q-6

 

[Painter2002]

Yea but nobody cares about your anecdotes.

That’s not a nice way to treat other users. If nobody cares about @Queen6 opinions and experience, why should we care about yours? The user you are talking smack to is actually a fairly respected member on these forums.

I have had only positive experiences with my current gen MBP, but doesn’t mean @Queen6 opinions and experiences aren’t valid. It is a pretty widespread experience for many that the actual hardcore base of Mac fans is diminishing. The lineup has had too many issues for even pro creative users to make it worth risking.

Be nice to others. Very little of what you read on these forums is going to have hard evidence behind it, most of it is personal experience, and just because you don’t agree with it or believe it doesn’t mean you need to be disrespectful of others.

 

[smallcoffee]

That’s not a nice way to treat other users. If nobody cares about @Queen6 opinions and experience, why should we care about yours? The user you are talking smack to is actually a fairly respected member on these forums.

I have had only positive experiences with my current gen MBP, but doesn’t mean @Queen6 opinions and experiences aren’t valid. It is a pretty widespread experience for many that the actual hardcore base of Mac fans is diminishing. The lineup has had too many issues for even pro creative users to make it worth risking.

Be nice to others. Very little of what you read on these forums is going to have hard evidence behind it, most of it is personal experience, and just because you don’t agree with it or believe it doesn’t mean you need to be disrespectful of others.

Then that's where you say "Oh this is my experience, you're right I don't have any facts". You don't then continue to try and argue the point based on your anecdote when making factual claims.
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I'm sure Apple does as it reflects badly, as will you one day...

Q-6

Sorry, what you're saying here doesn't make sense. As I will one day reflect badly? What?

 

[Painter2002]

Then that's where you say "Oh this is my experience, you're right I don't have any facts". You don't then continue to try and argue the point based on your anecdote when making factual claims.
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Sorry, what you're saying here doesn't make sense. As I will one day reflect badly? What?

I believe you have missed my point. Your claim that evidence of one user is anecdotal, doesn’t matter, and rhat the community here doesn’t care, is false, because in fact it actually does matter and we as a community do believe in reading all opinions and experiences, even if they don’t match our own opinions.

Look at the keyboard failures. If people didn’t speak up and make an uproar about the keyboard failures that they and their colleagues, family and friends were having, it likely would have never hit a scene big enough for Apple to care. Many said it was anecdotal and not a legitimate issue at first here, when in fact it was. Apple likely wouldn’t have released a repair program without all the negative press, or if they had, it would’ve been much farther down the road than they did. This was based on personal experience from users on Macrumors and other forums that started that trend.

Personal experience or opinions (anecdotal evidence, as you have phrased it) have a place here. In fact, your post of personal non-issue and preference to the newer keyboards of the current gen MBP is a great example of the same type of personal opinions expressed. Just because you don’t have issues with the machine doesn’t automatically mean there isn’t a bigger issue, which is what you comments here seem to infer, but is also legitimate evidence that not all computers and users have issues with the keyboard.

But I digress, all I was trying to say is that sure, you can try to make someone apologize and say they don’t have hard, scientific facts surrounding the decline of Mac users or any other topic here, but what good would that do? The vast majority of posts here, including yours on this thread, are based on personal experience and/or common sense/logic (usually). No need to call someone out by saying their opinion doesn’t matter.

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

I like the large Trackpad and the Touchbar. And the keyboard is the best non-gaming keyboard on any laptop.

I can't answer the poll, cause I don't think the touchbar "needs" a redesign. Like anything else, I just want it to evolve. I'm hoping for a double row touchbar.

 

[Eithanius]

Apple might even digitised the entire keyboard area for the next redesign.

 

[smallcoffee]

I believe you have missed my point. Your claim that evidence of one user is anecdotal, doesn’t matter, and rhat the community here doesn’t care, is false, because in fact it actually does matter and we as a community do believe in reading all opinions and experiences, even if they don’t match our own opinions.

Look at the keyboard failures. If people didn’t speak up and make an uproar about the keyboard failures that they and their colleagues, family and friends were having, it likely would have never hit a scene big enough for Apple to care. Many said it was anecdotal and not a legitimate issue at first here, when in fact it was. Apple likely wouldn’t have released a repair program without all the negative press, or if they had, it would’ve been much farther down the road than they did. This was based on personal experience from users on Macrumors and other forums that started that trend.

Personal experience or opinions (anecdotal evidence, as you have phrased it) have a place here. In fact, your post of personal non-issue and preference to the newer keyboards of the current gen MBP is a great example of the same type of personal opinions expressed. Just because you don’t have issues with the machine doesn’t automatically mean there isn’t a bigger issue, which is what you comments here seem to infer, but is also legitimate evidence that not all computers and users have issues with the keyboard.

You’re arguing about the keyboard with me when I haven’t put forth an argument. I questioned workflows and a factual statement that was made and backed up by an irrelevant anecdote. Go read what was written.

But I digress, all I was trying to say is that sure, you can try to make someone apologize and say they don’t have hard, scientific facts surrounding the decline of Mac users or any other topic here, but what good would that do? The vast majority of posts here, including yours on this thread, are based on personal experience and/or common sense/logic (usually). No need to call someone out by saying their opinion doesn’t matter.

I don’t think I asked anybody to apologize other than as a figure of speech. People should admit when they’re wrong.

The OP made a claim and I asked for some sort of evidence because it’s a factual claim, to which I was responded to with “ho hum I saw 120 people switch from Macs” or whatever. Fine. I saw 100,000 people switch to Macs because they love the new ones! I guess we’ll just have to accept that since 100,000 > 120 that Mac usage is growing.

It’s fine to have anecdotes and opinions. It’s not fine to make a factual claim and back it up with an anecdote and pretend that you’re important or somehow your opinion on the matter has weight. It’s a fact, not an opinion.

Just say “hey you’re right, I don’t have any facts”. It’s pretty straightforward.

 

[ilikewhey]

apple need to make the trackpad smaller, too many unintentional input.

this butterfly keyboard is garbage, its effected by heat and dust. its the highest defective keyboard on any laptop model, apple been trying to remedy it since 2017 with different generations every year.

its also uncomfortable to type on, you can emulate the experience with tapping your fingers on a wooden desk for couple minutes. although some say they like it. so ymmv.

 

[Painter2002]

You’re arguing about the keyboard with me when I haven’t put forth an argument. I questioned workflows and a factual statement that was made and backed up by an irrelevant anecdote. Go read what was written.



I don’t think I asked anybody to apologize other than as a figure of speech. People should admit when they’re wrong.

The OP made a claim and I asked for some sort of evidence because it’s a factual claim, to which I was responded to with “ho hum I saw 120 people switch from Macs” or whatever. Fine. I saw 100,000 people switch to Macs because they love the new ones! I guess we’ll just have to accept that since 100,000 > 120 that Mac usage is growing.

It’s fine to have anecdotes and opinions. It’s not fine to make a factual claim and back it up with an anecdote and pretend that you’re important or somehow your opinion on the matter has weight. It’s a fact, not an opinion.

Just say “hey you’re right, I don’t have any facts”. It’s pretty straightforward.

I merely brought up the keyboard discussion as an example... since that’s actually what this thread is partly about.

But you’re right, there is no hard factual data on here because you are in the wrong spot for that kind of information.

If you are looking for hard facts, I’d suggest you go to Apple directly, you aren’t going to find much hard data on a forum. If you do get any data from Apple we’d love to hear about that! Cheers!

 

[smallcoffee]

I merely brought up the keyboard discussion as an example... since that’s actually what this thread is partly about.

Yes but it made no sense to do so in the context of what you were quoting. Might as well talk about ponies or something.

But you’re right, there is no hard factual data on here because you are in the wrong spot for that kind of information.

If you are looking for hard facts, I’d suggest you go to Apple directly, you aren’t going to find much hard data on a forum. If you do get any data from Apple we’d love to hear about that! Cheers!

That's just a silly cop out. When people discuss things it's normal to ask for more or supporting information. Lending support to not doing so when asked is anti-intellectual, and dishonest, and it makes the forum a worse place. If somebody came in here and said that a new MacBook Pro has a slower CPU than a Gamecube are you going to chalk that up to "I guess that's somebody's anecdote" too?

Facts have a place everywhere on the Internet, and it's commonplace to ask for supporting information when someone makes a factual claim about something.

But hey, if you don't to live in a world where facts matter then you'll just have to accept my anecdote:

Apple is selling much more MacBook Pros than ever because of the keyboard redesign. All of the 60,000 designers and engineers I manage across the U.S., Europe, and Japan switched from the 2015 model to the newer ones because they like the redesign and it improves their workflows by a whole lot! I don't see anybody using the 2015 model anymore. Apple must have lost a lot of money on those ones which prompted the redesign.

 

[Painter2002]

That's just a silly cop out. When people discuss things it's normal to ask for more or supporting information.

You again miss the point, and clearly didn’t read my first post defending peoples’ personal opinion. I support asking for more information, but simply claiming that nobody cares about someone’s input simply because it’s based not on hard facts but rather personal opinions is wrong. The majority of information on this forum (other than hard facts like computer specs and benchmarks) are based on potentially anecdotal evidence.

But in this case I will just agree to disagree with your view of what constitutes valuable information.

 

[smallcoffee]

You again miss the point, and clearly didn’t read my first post defending peoples’ personal opinion.

No you made that the point of your argument, which is something else I don't care about. If someone asks for factual information to back up a factual claim, and then that person provides an anecdote, of course nobody cares about that anecdote.

I support asking for more information, but simply claiming that nobody cares about someone’s input simply because it’s based not on hard facts but rather personal opinions is wrong.

This is something you've concocted in your head. I read and respond to anecdotes and opinions all the time and care (as much as possible to care about Internet forums) about that input. In fact, I care so much that when I see that someone is arguing a point and making a factual claim that they can't back up, I call them out on it.

The majority of information on this forum (other than hard facts like computer specs and benchmarks) are based on potentially anecdotal evidence.

Sure, and a lot of people enjoy discussing the anecdotes, but they aren't or shouldn't be presented as factual claims to support an argument.

But in this case I will just agree to disagree with your view of what constitutes valuable information.

You have no idea what my view is on valuable information, especially not with a sample size of 1.

 

[JTBing]

All of the 60,000 designers and engineers I manage across the U.S., Europe, and Japan switched from the 2015 model to the newer ones because they like the redesign and it improves their workflows by a whole lot! I don't see anybody using the 2015 model anymore. Apple must have lost a lot of money on those ones which prompted the redesign.

Please supply hard facts and not simply anecdotes.

 

[smallcoffee]

Please supply hard facts and not simply anecdotes.

Obviously I don't need to per previous discussions