The Failure of the Touchbar MacBook Pros: Emergency Redesign Needed

[Momo13Drums]

ie instead of never looking at the esc key now after considerable training you "don't always need to look at it". That summarizes the touch bar experience in a nutshell

What I meant is my personal work flow doesn't really involve using the esc key much - ever. Doesn't matter which computer I'm on, its just not a key I use much. I'll admit in the rare event that I personally use it, I had to look at the Touch Bar at first. But after doing it a few times I didn't have to look anymore... just like anything else.

My point is if someone like me who rarely ever uses the esc key can get used to hitting it without looking, then people who use it constantly should theoretically be able to adapt to it without any issue. I'll agree the Touch Bar is a little gimmicky, but its a nice gimmick and one that I've actually found more useful than not. If they offered a non-touchbar version for $400-500 less I'd probably pick the non-TB version, so I get the point here... but I'd rather make lemonade out of the lemons I have instead of complaining they should be oranges!

 

[maflynn]

Tell that to the thousands of people whose Windows machines die each and every time Windows does one of their quarterly updates. Windows 10 is *NO WHERE* near the OS that MacOS is.

Actually it has, windows 10 is quite stable and seems to have their bi-annual release down pat.

I support windows servers and workstations and while no platform is perfect in quite pleased at how stable windows is. Windows has advantages and disadvantages as does macos. Pick the OS that best suits your needs and wants

 

[SDColorado]

Actually it has, windows 10 is quite stable and seems to have their bi-annual release down pat.

I support windows servers and workstations and while no platform is perfect in quite pleased at how stable windows is. Windows has advantages and disadvantages as does macos. Pick the OS that best suits your needs and wants

There was an issue with a very small percentage of people who experienced some data loss while upgrading to Windows 10 1809, but there is always a small chance of that with any OS update. Such as the issue that effected a small percentage of people with High Sierra. *Always* backup before doing an OS update and minimize/eliminate the risk

https://www.iosrecovery.net/recover-lost-files-after-high-sierra-update/

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8170449

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.macrumors.com/2018/02/19/apfs-bug-macos-data-loss-disk-images/amp/

 

[Hadron]

My point is if someone like me who rarely ever uses the esc key can get used to hitting it without looking, then people who use it constantly should theoretically be able to adapt to it without any issue.

What would have made that easier would have been for the TB buttons to extend all the way to the left of the TB, rather than having a bit of dead space. Because the very end of the TB is the easiest point to hit without looking, as well as being the place where the escape key traditionally is.

Of course it's obvious why they didn't: they wanted a left-right symmetry and the fingerprint sensor at the right means that the touch bar ends about half a key's width from the right-hand end, and so they mirrored this at the left. But I think it is fair to criticise this choice as an example of Apple putting design above usability.

 

[IngerMan]

What would have made that easier would have been for the TB buttons to extend all the way to the left of the TB

That is how it exactly works. You can press it all the way to the left and it works. Another Problem solved lol

 

[Hadron]

That is how it exactly works. You can press it all the way to the left and it works. Another Problem solved lol

Except it doesn't quite. You have to hit it far enough in that your finger overlaps the button, otherwise it doesn't activate. Put your fingertip right on the edge and roll it in and you see where the button lights up

If you always hit slightly in from the edge, have wide enough fingertips, or press enough that your finger flattens and comes close enough to the button then it will always work that way. If I use my middle or ring finger this works reliably for me. But with the little finger (the obvious one to use) if I hit slightly left of where the centre of a traditional escape key would be I can have my fingertip fully on the plastic bar but not activate the virtual escape key, when a physical one would have fired. The sensitive area stops just a mm or two short of where this would be fully reliable for me.

 

[Natzoo]

I.E. learn to type. The keyboard is far superior to the previous one.

Thats an opinion, the keyboard is way worse, coming from a 2015 to a 2018. I can no longer type at my normal speed, either the keyboard is messing up or im somehow just double typing letters. My wrist now feels sore after a heavy days use.

 

[smallcoffee]

Thats an opinion, the keyboard is way worse, coming from a 2015 to a 2018. I can no longer type at my normal speed, either the keyboard is messing up or im somehow just double typing letters. My wrist now feels sore after a heavy days use.

I use both daily and the newer keyboard is way better. People just don’t like change.

 

[SDColorado]

I use both daily and the newer keyboard is way better. People just don’t like change.

People don’t like change? Is that just the default answer for anyone who disagrees or has a different point of view?

I love change. The keyboard still sucks. Just my .2

 

[smallcoffee]

People don’t like change? Is that just the default answer for anyone who disagrees or has a different point of view?

I love change. The keyboard still sucks. Just my .2

No I just think that is the case here.

 

[c0ppo]

I use both daily and the newer keyboard is way better. People just don’t like change.

I made a change, first from iPhone to Android, and now from Mac OS to Windows + Linux (Manjaro). Change isn't hard. I really love my change. And I really love having plethora of options for nice keyboards. Us developers really appreciate keyboards. And ports

But I guess the keyboard on new MBP also doesn't like the change, since it fails on it's users so often.

 

[Queen6]

People don’t like change? Is that just the default answer for anyone who disagrees or has a different point of view?

I love change. The keyboard still sucks. Just my .2

The MBP keyboard does suck, shockingly so...

Q-6

 

[chabig]

You have to hit it far enough in that your finger overlaps the button, otherwise it doesn't activate.

Mine activates well before my finger overlaps the button.

 

[SDColorado]

I made a change, first from iPhone to Android, and now from Mac OS to Windows + Linux (Manjaro). Change isn't hard. I really love my change. And I really love having plethora of options for nice keyboards. Us developers really appreciate keyboards. And ports

But I guess the keyboard on new MBP also doesn't like the change, since it fails on it's users so often.

I really do love change and new tech. I get bored with the same old same old. I more than welcome change for for better. But to *me* the butterfly keyboard just feels like change as a comprise for the form factor rather than change for the better.

But if someone prefers it and feels its better and that it’s an improvement awesome! It definitely has its fans.

But I don’t believe the detractors don’t like it simply because they don’t like change. There is a lot more to it than that

 

[smallcoffee]

I made a change, first from iPhone to Android, and now from Mac OS to Windows + Linux (Manjaro). Change isn't hard. I really love my change. And I really love having plethora of options for nice keyboards. Us developers really appreciate keyboards. And ports

But I guess the keyboard on new MBP also doesn't like the change, since it fails on it's users so often.

Yes, us developers do appreciate keyboards - hence why it's nice to have a better keyboard. The 2015 keyboard is basically like typing into a giant bowl of jello compared to the new models. And agreed about the ports, I'm glad I finally have USB-C for all of my ports instead of a bunch of useless ones.

 

[c0ppo]

The 2015 keyboard is basically like typing into a giant bowl of jello compared to the new models.

Well, keyboard preferences are subjective. There are people who like really small travel on butterfly keyboards, my best friend loves them. I'm not disputing that part. What I am disputing is keyboard reliance. And butterfly keyboard in the most basic sense is a complete failure.

And agreed about the ports, I'm glad I finally have USB-C for all of my ports instead of a bunch of useless ones.

Sure you do. If Apple released MBP without ports, you would probably call usb-c a relict of the past

 

[smallcoffee]

Well, keyboard preferences are subjective. There are people who like really small travel on butterfly keyboards, my best friend loves them. I'm not disputing that part. What I am disputing is keyboard reliance.

Yes it does appear that the new keyboards have had some issues.

And butterfly keyboard in the most basic sense is a complete failure.

But then you go off the deep end. It's easily a better keyboard - it's hardly worth discussing but for the fact that I find it tiresome that people go in to an Apple store (not you necessarily) and try the keyboard for 5 seconds and declare that it's inferior. You can't possibly know how good a keyboard is that quickly.

The best I can do is that I have both a 2015 and 2016 and MacBook Pro 15". I can type on the 2015 just fine, but when I move to the 2016 they typing experience is just so much better.

Sure you do. If Apple released MBP without ports, you would probably call usb-c a relict of the past

Yes - the future is wireless.

It's dumb that I have to walk into a room and hope that they have the right connector, HDMI or otherwise. Sometimes when I give talks I go in and they have just DVI or VGA. Should a Mac have that adapter too just in case? It makes a lot more sense to have one port to rule them all. Not to mention that even though I use HDMI on the 2015, the other ports go completely unused (except USB-Legacy I suppose, but even that is hardly used).

Not only is the port technically superior, there are 4 of them and I can use all of them.

 

[Eason85]

Yes it does appear that the new keyboards have had some issues.



But then you go off the deep end. It's easily a better keyboard - it's hardly worth discussing but for the fact that I find it tiresome that people go in to an Apple store (not you necessarily) and try the keyboard for 5 seconds and declare that it's inferior. You can't possibly know how good a keyboard is that quickly.

The best I can do is that I have both a 2015 and 2016 and MacBook Pro 15". I can type on the 2015 just fine, but when I move to the 2016 they typing experience is just so much better.



Yes - the future is wireless.

It's dumb that I have to walk into a room and hope that they have the right connector, HDMI or otherwise. Sometimes when I give talks I go in and they have just DVI or VGA. Should a Mac have that adapter too just in case? It makes a lot more sense to have one port to rule them all. Not to mention that even though I use HDMI on the 2015, the other ports go completely unused (except USB-Legacy I suppose, but even that is hardly used).

Not only is the port technically superior, there are 4 of them and I can use all of them.

You make a lot of subjective, opinionated statements, but with little or no factual support. It isn't convincing.

1. What about if they use the keyboard for a few months and declare it's inferior? The keys bottom out so quickly that they exhaust my hands. This physical discomfort is very real. I write for a living and use a variety of thinkpads; while it is subjective that I love the comfortable feel of a thinkpad keyboard with its smooth action and deep throw, the strain on my hands caused by the macbook is objectively there
.
2. How can wireless technology overcome its limitations of power consumption and latency in a timeframe that is acceptable even for the most patient user?

 

[SDColorado]

You make a lot of subjective, opinionated statements, but with little or no factual support. It isn't convincing.

1. What about if they use the keyboard for a few months and declare it's inferior? The keys bottom out so quickly that they exhaust my hands. This physical discomfort is very real. I write for a living and use a variety of thinkpads; while it is subjective that I love the comfortable feel of a thinkpad keyboard with its smooth action and deep throw, the strain on my hands caused by the macbook is objectively there
.
2. How can wireless technology overcome its limitations of power consumption and latency in a timeframe that is acceptable even for the most patient user?

Ok, you have experience with the keyboards, but are you afraid of change? No? Good.

Just kidding, just kidding

Edit: I had two years experience with a 2016 MBP before giving it to my wife to replace her dead one and a couple months experience with serval 2018 models. I hated the 2016 keyboards. The 2018 is a somewhat quieter hatred.

Afraid of change? Heck no. Please Apple, chance it now!

 

[Eason85]

Ok, you have experience with the keyboards, but are you afraid of change? No? Good.

Just kidding, just kidding

I'm just afraid that most times things change, they are changing for the worse. Whether it's keyboards or the ability to have an adult dialogue. They change for the worse because not enough people know how to take a step back and think objectively.

 

[SDColorado]

I'm just afraid that most times things change, they are changing for the worse. Whether it's keyboards or the ability to have an adult dialogue. They change for the worse because not enough people know how to take a step back and think objectively.

Having an adult dialog would have to include an acceptance that not everyone who dislikes the new keyboard is just afraid of change or doesn’t have any more than 15 minutes experience with it. That some people have tried and used these keyboards over months and over years.

Agreeing that some people love them and accepting that is true and it’s OK if you do love them. But also accepting that not everyone is as enthusiastic about them as your are or feels that they are superior.

Accepting reasons for others not liking them, rather than just dismissing them with the idea that they are just afraid of change or have only spent 15 mins with them.

Understanding that some folks legitimately do not like them and have good reasons for feeling the way they feel beyond a simplistic fear of change. There are many who have have also had serious and repeated problems with them and genuinely don’t care for them for a number of reasons.

Perhaps it is a more a case of fear of hardware failure and a genuine time tested dislike for the keyboard, rather than a fear of change and inexperience using them?

I have said repeatedly in my posts that If someone likes them or prefers them, that’s great. But not everyone is going to agree and for a multitude of reasons beyond fear of change or inexperience.

I have heard that same “fear of change” taking point used to dismiss those who don’t care for the Touch Bar as well and that’s equally incorrect.

 

[artnoi]

I think they need to redesign the logic board (that has EVERYTHING soldered onto it) such that a Touch Bar failure wouldn't require a whole new board.

 

[Queen6]

I think they need to redesign the logic board (that has EVERYTHING soldered onto it) such that a Touch Bar failure wouldn't require a whole new board.

Never going to happen, Apple's only concern now is for itself, with built in obsolescence and ridiculous repair costs. The sole objective is forcing it's customer's to purchase ever more of it's hardware...

Q-6

 

[c0ppo]

Yes it does appear that the new keyboards have had some issues.

I wouldn't call it 'some issues'. Multiple keyboard failings isn't a minor issue. Company I do a lot of work for banned MBP until further notice because of the keyboard failings. Not a large company (about 40 employees), but most of their employees used macs, so it's not a decision they made easily.

But then you go off the deep end. It's easily a better keyboard - it's hardly worth discussing but for the fact that I find it tiresome that people go in to an Apple store (not you necessarily) and try the keyboard for 5 seconds and declare that it's inferior. You can't possibly know how good a keyboard is that quickly.

In my country there isn't even an Apple store. MBP 15 base config costs 3200€. I've used all new macs. Multiple 2016 keyboards failed, 2x 2017, and I just tried out 2018, didn't have 'courage' to switch to it. So I base my opinion on my use case, not on 5 min Apple store typing.

And I'm not even discussing the feel of the keyboard. That part is totally subjective. You love it? Great. Some love it, some don't. I'm not gonna enter that discussion since it makes no sense, that is a subjective field.

But this keyboard is a complete FAIL because it fails so often and so easily. We had zero pre butterfly keyboards fail on us, no thinkpads or dell keyboards failed. Just butterfly keyboards. On numerous occasions.

All I am saying is that quality of this keyboard is in a junk territory. Don't trust me or don't like the facts? Well, Apple acknowledged this by additional warranty on keyboards for new mbp. Remember when was the last time they did that? With screen coatings, and with nVidia dGPU on preretina mbp.

The best I can do is that I have both a 2015 and 2016 and MacBook Pro 15". I can type on the 2015 just fine, but when I move to the 2016 they typing experience is just so much better.

Again, that part is subjective. But all of our pre 2016 keyboards work just fine. Butterfly keyboards keep getting stuck, broken or double typing on a single press.

Yes - the future is wireless.

Sure it is. Especially in a corporate environment. Especially for the 'PRO' crowds

It's dumb that I have to walk into a room and hope that they have the right connector, HDMI or otherwise. Sometimes when I give talks I go in and they have just DVI or VGA. Should a Mac have that adapter too just in case? It makes a lot more sense to have one port to rule them all. Not to mention that even though I use HDMI on the 2015, the other ports go completely unused (except USB-Legacy I suppose, but even that is hardly used).

I would like that as well. So please contact me when wireless will be as fast as wired connection, and as secure as wired connection. I just hope that I will live to see that day

Not only is the port technically superior, there are 4 of them and I can use all of them.

I'm not disputing the tb3 ports, they are great, and I love them. But 4 of them is a total overkill. Be honest, have you ever seen anyone using all 4 TB3 ports? In the mean time 99,99% of the world still uses usb-a ports, hdmi and sd card slots.

2 tb3 ports, 2 usb-a ports, hdmi and sd card would be a way better solution then what apple is offering.

 

[SDColorado]

I'm not disputing the tb3 ports, they are great, and I love them. But 4 of them is a total overkill. Be honest, have you ever seen anyone using all 4 TB3 ports? In the mean time 99,99% of the world still uses usb-a ports, hdmi and sd card slots.

2 tb3 ports, 2 usb-a ports, hdmi and sd card would be a way better solution then what apple is offering.

Not wanting to wade into brand vs brand or MacOS vs Windows territory, but the Lenvo X1 Extreme got it *mostly* right for thin and light form factor with their array of ports.

2x USB-C TB3, 2X USB-A 3.1 (1 always on for recharging), 4-1 SD Card Reader, HDMI. Where they got it maybe a little wrong was the mini-ethernet port that requires an adapter, but they manged a good selection of ports in a thin and light design.

Elimintating all other port types, when you are a brand that only makes up about 10% of the laptop market sales, runs a bit counter to what the other 90% of the market doing. I am sure it also runs counter to what at least some percentage of Apples own customers wanted, needed or would have prefered.