Certainly not pleasant for me. I have the same exact issue.
Same reason why I decided to just hook up to a mouse and keyboard for this dumb reason.
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The Failure of the Touchbar MacBook Pros: Emergency Redesign Needed
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Certainly not pleasant for me. I have the same exact issue.
Same reason why I decided to just hook up to a mouse and keyboard for this dumb reason.
Listen, the pool in this thread means nothing in real world.
Here is an extremely small % of actual 2016/2017 MBP users.
In my opinion yes, the trackpad is a huge improvement over the old ones and even the keyboard with flaws or not, still an improvement.
Keep supporting your data based on this pool, but don't jump and attack others with your nonsense.
A poll on a forum where currently active users mainly gather to voice their complains about things they dislike or problems they are having? Thats quite a representative sample you got there
Tech bloggers do not represent the opinion of majority and if some famous dude on the internet happen to dislike the trackpad doesn't mean that "most users" even care about this. The class action lawsuit is in regards of keyboard reliability, not ergonomy... No, I am afraid, you have no data at all. All your data tells is that the new design is polarising, which is certainly true. Any big change will generate strong reaction. The same was with the original MacBook Air and the retina Macs.Then maybe we should stop pretending to be objective. Keyboard is highly personal experience and different people like different things. For instance, I never liked mechanical keyboards, finding them very uncomfortable to use, even though many regard them as the pinnacle of typing technology.
I just measured (2016 15" vs 2015 13"). They are practically identical, around 27x10 cm. Same as Apple's external keyboards btw.
A poll on a forum where currently active users mainly gather to voice their complains about things they dislike or problems they are having? Thats quite a representative sample you got there
Then maybe we should stop pretending to be objective. Keyboard is highly personal experience and different people like different things. For instance, I never liked mechanical keyboards, finding them very uncomfortable to use, even though many regard them as the pinnacle of typing technology.
I just measured (2016 15" vs 2015 13"). They are practically identical, around 27x10 cm. Same as Apple's external keyboards btw.
Yes, I have data. Yes this poll is valid. Yes articles online are valid.
The keyboards of the 15" MBP Touchbar and the 15" rMBP are not identical in measurement.
And this isn't just about "ergonomy". There are multiple aspects to the design/keyboard that are at issue.
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Not attacking anybody. But if a person posts something with nothing to support them other than their own opinion, then turns around and says to you that you have no data to support your comments in the face of an online poll, that's absurd. The poll is valid.
Of course they are valid. Its just your opportunistic interpretation that is messed up.
Then my measuring tape must have a mind on its own. What are they keyboard sizes according to your information?
CNET article from today:
https://www.cnet.com/news/5-things-apple-has-to-do-to-win-with-macs-this-fall/
https://www.cnet.com/news/5-things-apple-has-to-do-to-win-with-macs-this-fall/
I've used Windows all of my life up until 2015, Windows will never be better than Mac OVERALL even if Macs are overpriced. Done.
Lol whatever you think . If everybody thought the same we all would be using windows or MacOS. We all would use iPhones or Android. Clearly not everybody is using iPhones since Android is bigger ( the OS in general). Spec to spec the windows laptops have MacBooks beat. Software is subjective and tbh if you want a machine to just go on the internet windows is a better machine for it then a MacBook.
What are we in high school where something has to be better? You can like what you like and other people can like what they want.
I’m not but you’re insisting MacOS is better when it’s a subjective opinion. I like MacOS and if I was still playing video games like I used to then probably would have a windows machine because gaming is pretty bad on MacOS natively. That being said I only really play wow a bit and the sims 4 which both run on MacOS so that’s what I have. To you it’s MacOS or die. Such a childish viewpoint but you’re entitled to it. MacOS just works better for my workflow overall and the ecosystem of Apple is worth the Apple premium to me.
Actually recently sold my Windows laptop because I barely used it. I enjoy technology no matter who makes it. The surface book is for example a great piece of tech made by Microsoft. Would I buy one ? No but it’s sleek and has a lot of power inside. Objectively though you can say the Dell XPS 13 has more power compared to price when you compare it to a 2017 MacBook Pro . If you take out the OS it’s a better laptop in terms of hardware
Actually recently sold my Windows laptop because I barely used it. I enjoy technology no matter who makes it. The surface book is for example a great piece of tech made by Microsoft. Would I buy one ? No but it’s sleek and has a lot of power inside. Objectively though you can say the Dell XPS 13 has more power compared to price when you compare it to a 2017 MacBook Pro . If you take out the OS it’s a better laptop in terms of hardware
Simply having a class action lawsuit means nothing.
The trackpad is the best in the business. Hate it go buy a windows laptop or some old MacBook. Solved your problem. Or just make another thread lol.
I prefer Windows but would buy a new 2015 Macbook Pro as my daily driver because it's that good a hardware.
I recently bought a new premium ultrabook (HP Spectre 15) and my old 2012 Macbook Pro blows the snot out of it hardware-wise.
Votes YES
I recently bought a new premium ultrabook (HP Spectre 15) and my old 2012 Macbook Pro blows the snot out of it hardware-wise.
Votes YES
Just chiming in that I've had more issues with this macbook pro than any other one in the past. bad motherboard, white spots on screen, keyboard indentions on screen, keyboard malfunctions due to a very tiny crumb getting inside the H, which luckily I got out. Very very fragile computer. And they raised the price. There are too many people who are having problems to dismiss this as a personal opinion. This model is not made well and I should hope the delays for the new models will be for a total redesign.
I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, bro, but you have to realize that not everyone will agree with you. It does not make them childish because of it.
Hurt my feelings ? You do realize you assume everybody agrees with you. You think you’re right when you’re not. MacBooks are not better period. I even prefer MacOS for most things. I was making a statement windows can be viewed just as good.
Interesting video from a long time Apple/laptop User. He looks at the MacBook pro Touchbar 1 year after having it, and addresses the Touchbar and keyboard. Go to the 4 minute mark of the video where it gets into the keyboard.
If keyboard travel is so bad, why do gamers who want the absolute best possible speed, accuracy and durability like mechanical keyboards with large amounts of travel? The answer is because the tactile feedback of the travel contributes a great deal to these qualities (the latter two in particular). It’s possible, for instance, to abort a key press if you mistakenly start to depress it, or you change your mind half-way through, before it registers. With the new flat keyboard with virtually no travel you can’t; it’s either not pressed or you’ve pressed it with the slightest of effort and possibly by mistake.
I’ll wager that those people who say they like the new keyboard are referring to its greater stability. It’s not the short travel that they’re liking.
As for the trackpad, it’s natural (for me) to rest my palms on the palm rests when typing. With the new oversized trackpad this is bound to cause issues on occasion. Having owned a couple of the 2012-2015 models I never once thought the trackpad was too small or encountered limitations. Maybe they could’ve grown it by 30-40% without encroaching too much on the palm rests, but at nearly twice the size the new trackpad is ridiculous.
I feel like Apple were overcompensating for all the other things they cut. These latest MacBook Pros (15” in particular) are a failure in my book. If the 2015 model had a P3 screen with slightly thinner bezels and a graphics upgrade that’s all I’d need!
I’ll wager that those people who say they like the new keyboard are referring to its greater stability. It’s not the short travel that they’re liking.
As for the trackpad, it’s natural (for me) to rest my palms on the palm rests when typing. With the new oversized trackpad this is bound to cause issues on occasion. Having owned a couple of the 2012-2015 models I never once thought the trackpad was too small or encountered limitations. Maybe they could’ve grown it by 30-40% without encroaching too much on the palm rests, but at nearly twice the size the new trackpad is ridiculous.
I feel like Apple were overcompensating for all the other things they cut. These latest MacBook Pros (15” in particular) are a failure in my book. If the 2015 model had a P3 screen with slightly thinner bezels and a graphics upgrade that’s all I’d need!
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Look at all the warnings against buying pre 2012 macbook pros due to the failing dGPU's.
Doesn't it seem odd, that we have so many people praising the 2016/2017 models, to the point where they're even suggesting people to buy it, as if they don't have a similar, inevitable failure, which should under normal, sane, circumstances mean don't praise it, don't suggest to buy it, rather avoid like the plague?
I mean really folks, we're talking about sickly expensive computers, that, without proper insurance, are bound to fail either with the touch bar, keyboard, or other parts, just like the 2011 macbook pro's had basic design flaws and should be avoided, why don't we see the same people warning against the 2016/2017 models?
My guess? Cognitive dissonance from people who own the device themselves. They have no problem saying avoid 2011 macbook pro, cause they've moved on. But are these same people saying avoid 2016/2017 model? I see no sane argument that these people should not have the same attitude towards the 2016/2017 model, cause we're basicaly talking about the same thing: an expensive device that you're using on borrowed time: that should be a clear no-go, BUT daily we see a herd of supporters of the oversized trackpad, failing hard loud keys, screen with finger marks, clicks if you shake it, touchbar annoyances and failures are dismissed like it's nothing etc...... folk, you really got some explaining to do if you humans are to be taken serious with your advice.
Doesn't it seem odd, that we have so many people praising the 2016/2017 models, to the point where they're even suggesting people to buy it, as if they don't have a similar, inevitable failure, which should under normal, sane, circumstances mean don't praise it, don't suggest to buy it, rather avoid like the plague?
I mean really folks, we're talking about sickly expensive computers, that, without proper insurance, are bound to fail either with the touch bar, keyboard, or other parts, just like the 2011 macbook pro's had basic design flaws and should be avoided, why don't we see the same people warning against the 2016/2017 models?
My guess? Cognitive dissonance from people who own the device themselves. They have no problem saying avoid 2011 macbook pro, cause they've moved on. But are these same people saying avoid 2016/2017 model? I see no sane argument that these people should not have the same attitude towards the 2016/2017 model, cause we're basicaly talking about the same thing: an expensive device that you're using on borrowed time: that should be a clear no-go, BUT daily we see a herd of supporters of the oversized trackpad, failing hard loud keys, screen with finger marks, clicks if you shake it, touchbar annoyances and failures are dismissed like it's nothing etc...... folk, you really got some explaining to do if you humans are to be taken serious with your advice.
Are you sure you are not the one suffering from cognitive dissonance? The only known reliability issue with the 2016/2017 machines until now involve the keyboard. Still, there is no data to suggest that this results in the "inevitable failure". There is no evidence that these issues occur in more then 1-2% of machines, which is a lot, but not outside of the accepted industry failure rates. What you are completely missing is the fact that there is no failure-free laptop on the market. Empirical studies shows that roughly around 20% of all premium-brand laptops are expected to fail within 3 years, doesn't matter which brand you buy. If that is not an incentive to get warranty extension insurance, I don't know what is. Additional 0.5-1% chance of failure due to keyboard really don't make any major difference overall.
The primary reason to avoid the 2011 machines is that they are seven years old at this time, in addition to having known problem of degrading GPU contacts. The chance of such machine developing an acute symptom in nearest future is dramatically higher than the chance of your 2016/2017 MBP developing a keyboard problem.
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Ugh, you realise that gaming and typing are kind of different activities with different underlaying requirements? MBP is a business machine, not a gaming one...
I am not sure that this is correct. There is still resistance to the keys. You don't just press it by resting your finger on it. Although I agree that the chance to accidentally press a key on the new keyboard is probably higher (just tried it out with side to side comparison).
Of course its mainly greater stability! But don't you think that your way of putting it is a bit manipulative? The point is not in "it’s not the short travel that they’re liking", its in that they don't mind having short travel. Will I be disappointed if the keyboard had longer travel? Surely no, and I am sure that nobody really will. Do I think that the keyboard will benefit from longer travel? I don't think why it would. What I care about is typing experience. And the overall way the new keyboard is designed gives me very nice keyboard experience. Personally, I don't mind if they change it, as long as the experience remains equally good and if they don't sacrifice the form factor.
I’m not missing a thing bro. What you seem to be missing is the fact that just about all reviews mention the sucky keyboard. Countless comments about the smallest dust speck ruining the typing I’ll you blow/wipe it away. And somehow the still perfectly functioning 2011 mbp’s are a worse buy because their dGpu might fail.....if that’s not cognitive dissonance I don’t know what is. See. Instead of reading what I wrote, you’re you’re rrading something else and thinking I’m trying to say to but a 2011 mac rather. Do you seriously not see the comparison without having to use a “oh it’s 7 years old” come back?!
I’m taking about the cognitive dissonance of folks that think just because it’s new tech it’s not/it can’t be similarly flawed... (look at the stars on the gpu problem back then im sure you can find similarly low “official” figures) I’m willing to bet in 7 years people will be saying don’t buy the 2016/2017 models due to the crappy keyboard that is inevitably gonna fail and cause problems. The fact that people are coming up with creative excuses is a clear sign of current cognitive dissonance and not wanting to learn from past mistakes or even honor that their there.
You’re claiming no evidence yet the evidence is all around you. It’s that blindness to the current reality, many people suffer from. If you told someone in 2011 to have fully covering insurance of his device for its whole lifespan, that would not make consumers very confident to buy said device. I don’t see how an even more expensive device these days should be Ok’ed with having such poor and failing design choices.
So now people can look back and blame old tech for being wrongly designed but still can’t see that current gen hardware is similarly flawed.
My Early 2011 with a replaced mobo in 2015 is running as strong as ever with no keyboard reliability issues, ever. I’m supposed to get a new one cause this one might fail any day ?
So to boil down my comment: beware of blind consumers, trust the equipment with longevity proven design and hardware.
Edit: and to those who might still think I’m trying to say get a 2011 mac, NO, that’s not what I’m saying, try reading every again instead of misquoting me. Get the <2015 or wait.
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Look, I am a scientist, I am interested in interpretable facts. It is not a secret that there a lot of complains about malfunctioning keyboards. The important question is: how many malfunctioning keyboards are there actually? And this is where the things get awkward.
A survey by digitaltrends resulted in 100% increase of keyboard failures agains the previous model. This is a large number, however, the keyboard failure still contributed only 10% of overall failures (which translates to overall 1-2% keyboard failures). I've seen people on reddit (who work in companies that utilise large number of laptops) quote numbers around 3-7% of failed keyboards. Our experience is one (kind of) broken keyboard of 20 laptops in two years. Apple technician who services our machines claimed that most of the complains are solvable with a thorough compressed air cleaning and its only very rare that they actually experience broken keys.
Based on all this, my conclusions right now are the following:
1. The new keyboards are very prone to getting dust stuck under them, and probably 10% or more users will experience this.
2. Probably only around 10% of those users will actually end up with a genuinely broken machine
3. There are plenty of very vocal folk who dislike the typing experience (what is their proportion among all users is hard to tell)
That is it. For a corporate customer, like me, this doesn't matter, since we have a permanent service contract and we don't care about slightly increased failure chances. For a private customer, who wants to keep a machine fro as long as possible, this is an unpleasant unknown factor and additional stress.
They are a worse buy because they are very old computers! Its not just the GPU, anything can fail with them! You are talking about tech that is beyond its expected lifespan. Oh, you very well might get lucky, since there is that interesting phenomenon — the older something gets, the higher chance it is to live longer. Not to mention that the GPU issue is fundamentally different — the older points will degrade with time, while the thing with dust damaging the keyboard is more of a random chance. Not to mention that you get warranty on them.
And anyway, I wouldn't recommend anyone to buy either the 2011 nor the 2017 models. Certainly not the overpriced under-specced 2015 model. I say wait until the refresh, which will happen this year.
I recently bought a used 13" 2015 MBP, 1gb ssd, 16gb RAM, i7. I avoided the 2016 and 2017 MBP's mainly because of the keyboard, especially since I own a 2017 MacBook with (almost) the same keyboard and don't like it, and because the keyboards on the newer machines seem to give problems and need to be replaced. The machine I bought is by far the best computer I have owned, and I think the best laptop Apple has ever made. Why take a chance on the newer machines when you can get the 2015 MBP for less money?
leman said:
You're not getting it. The issue with the keyboards on the Touchbar MacBook Pros is the design itself, which is the cause of keys being prone to not registering input because of dust particles trapped under them. This is something that will affect every single Touchbar MacBook Pro. You're throwing around terms like "broken". The issue isn't just if a key stops working where the User can't fix it. The issue are keys that get dust trapped under them and fail to recognize input. That doesn't mean it can't be fixed with say, blowing air on it with compressed air. Then there's permanently broken that requires more than compressed air that requires service or replacement. In either case, the issue is the same, and it's a major problem.
I myself have actually experienced the space bar not registering input. I couldn't believe it was happening. The issue subsided, but on a $4000 machine, this is very unsettling and a major issue.
And here is effectively an acknowledgement by Apple in relation to ALL, EVERY SINGLE Touchbar MacBook/MacBook Pro. They post instructions on these exact machines on how to blow dust particles and such off of the keyboard in a very detailed way, and note "affected keys".
"Use compressed air to spray the keyboard, or just the affected keys, in a left-to-right motion."
https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT205662
leman said:
You're that guy from that Seinfeld episode who asks himself questions and then answers them.
How is it the same? Dust accumulation and having to clean the keyboard occasionally is an unnecessary annoyance. Actually broken hardware is indeed a major problem. Both are things that have to be fixed. But most of users who are reluctant to purchase the MBP are not afraid of having to clean the laptop once in a couple of months — they are afraid that their laptop will break out of warranty and will require a costly repair.
You are throwing everything together: typing experience, occasional maintenance, hardware failures, keyboard, trackpad. This is why your poll is nonsensical. Do I think that the keyboard design needs to be improved and made more reliable? Of course, who wouldn't?! Do I think that the typing experience is bad and absolutely has to be changed? No! Do I find it annoying that sometimes stuff would stick under my space bar and I have to get it out of there? Sure I do! Is it a deal-breaker for me when purchasing a laptop? No, it isn't, since other laptops have shortcomings that are more detrimental to my experience (like needing a bigger laptop bag or having to mess around with desk cables). So should I vote yes or no on your poll? Its typical manipulative nonsense that is designed to present public opinion the way you want. Its the same as asking "do you think that the government should change some of its policies" (to which obviously almost everyone would say "yes") and then claim every yes as a vote of no confidence.
Sorry, I don't get your cultural reference, never watched that show.
BTW, what about responding to my question about keyboard sizes? Still waiting for it. I actually went and measured the keyboards again, since I was doubting myself. Still 27x10 cm.