The Failure of the Touchbar MacBook Pros: Emergency Redesign Needed

[animan]

I wonder how many folks on here complaining about keyboards, oversized trackpad, failing hard loud keys, screen with finger marks, clicks if you shake it, touchbar annoyances and other design flaws.... are actually working for the lawyers trying to drum up their court cases to line up their pockets??

 

[booksbooks]

How is it the same? Dust accumulation and having to clean the keyboard occasionally is an unnecessary annoyance. Actually broken hardware is indeed a major problem. Both are things that have to be fixed. But most of users who are reluctant to purchase the MBP are not afraid of having to clean the laptop once in a couple of months — they are afraid that their laptop will break out of warranty and will require a costly repair.

You are throwing everything together: typing experience, occasional maintenance, hardware failures, keyboard, trackpad. This is why your poll is nonsensical. Do I think that the keyboard design needs to be improved and made more reliable? Of course, who wouldn't?! Do I think that the typing experience is bad and absolutely has to be changed? No! Do I find it annoying that sometimes stuff would stick under my space bar and I have to get it out of there? Sure I do! Is it a deal-breaker for me when purchasing a laptop? No, it isn't, since other laptops have shortcomings that are more detrimental to my experience (like needing a bigger laptop bag or having to mess around with desk cables). So should I vote yes or no on your poll? Its typical manipulative nonsense that is designed to present public opinion the way you want. Its the same as asking "do you think that the government should change some of its policies" (to which obviously almost everyone would say "yes") and then claim every yes as a vote of no confidence.

• The issue is the same in that the underlying cause is the same and every unit is affected. That is the point. And this is the result of the design. Yes it's worse if the keyboard just won't work and a User can't remedy it on their own, but the underlying issue is the same: flawed design. Now, you say you're a scientist, but you're not a very good one. You throw all kinds of generalizations out without having evidence to support it. You said, "But most of users who are reluctant to purchase the MBP are not afraid of having to clean the laptop once in a couple of months — they are afraid that their laptop will break out of warranty and will require a costly repair." You do not know what MOST USERS are thinking or willing to do. The two class action lawsuits and over 30,000 signatures at change.org are indications that there is a real issue with the keyboard. John Gruber: “This keyboard has to be one of the biggest design screwups in Apple history. Everyone who buys a MacBook depends upon the keyboard and this keyboard is undependable.”
• Throwing everything together. You just erected a strawman. My poll is clear. Your analogy fails in that your analogy fails to cite anything specific. My poll cites things that are specific. In fact, two key specific things: the keyboard and trackpad. I did not include "occasional maintenance and hardware failures". I focused on the design of some specific things like the keyboard and trackpad. If there are other aspects of the design that need to be changed, that's game too. The poll is valid, even if the results may not be to your liking.
• Measurement of the keyboard. The measurements of the keyboards of the 15" Touchbar MBP and the 15" rMBP are not the same. But even if they were, this doesn't contribute anything at this point.
• All of us owners are concerned about aspects of the device in question, and if the class action lawsuits over the keyboard are successful, Apple will likely provide extended warranties for the Touchbar MacBook/MacBook Pros and this will also throw their product cycle into a tailspin. I'd bet they've been redesigning the keyboard so the next update to the MacBook/MacBook Pro will not have these issues.

 

[Hitrate]

I wonder how many folks on here complaining about keyboards, oversized trackpad, failing hard loud keys, screen with finger marks, clicks if you shake it, touchbar annoyances and other design flaws.... are actually working for the lawyers trying to drum up their case for the courts??

Nah, I just watched way too many reviews on the macbook pro's you start to find out sh.. like a physical clicking sound if you swing your 16/17 laptop from one side to the other horizontally.... I mean right now i'm having my 15" 2011 on a stand to the side of the desk, to have room for two ableton push, keyboards, normal mouse etc...(need to buy a compact usb apple keyboard) but so that means my palms are leaning on the palrests quite heavily...do I wanna worry about my palms moving my mouse? No thank you... Am I gonna shake it around like I just don't care? No... Should I care that there could be more room for battery, no room for overlay on the keyboard for shortcuts and dust protection, if ppl say you're already having problems with fingerprints from the keys getting on the screen without a keycover on it...so many things that are just not, quite there... I know we're not gonna go back in time, but you really can't do much as a consumer other than voice your opinion. And I guess many people's hope is someone takes their suggestions seriously, cause it is after all consumer reports and meant to further the model, not cripple it...

 

[wethackrey]

I wonder how many folks on here complaining about keyboards, oversized trackpad, failing hard loud keys, screen with finger marks, clicks if you shake it, touchbar annoyances and other design flaws.... are actually working for the lawyers trying to drum up their court cases to line up their pockets??

Really? Very few, I'd say. If for no other reason than, unless it actually gets them more clients in some class action , discussions on an Internet forum are meaningless.

Your suggestion presupposes that there are no problems with the TouchBar MBP. I've used Mac laptops daily since the Powerbook 140 and have owned, literally, dozens of them. The TouchBar is absolutely the worst impediment to productivity I've seen since Windows Vista. Who thought putting a hypersensitive pad where a physical Escape key should be was a good idea? When would it ever make sense to kick the user out of the current context when their pinky finger strays a millimeter North of the "1" key? The TouchBar not only provides marginal utility in the best of cases, it is an absolute productivity killer.

And no, I do not have any intention of suing Apple. I would, however love to spend a day on Infinite Loop knocking heads.

 

[booksbooks]

Really? Very few, I'd say. If for no other reason than, unless it actually gets them more clients in some class action , discussions on an Internet forum are meaningless.

Your suggestion presupposes that there are no problems with the TouchBar MBP. I've used Mac laptops daily since the Powerbook 140 and have owned, literally, dozens of them. The TouchBar is absolutely the worst impediment to productivity I've seen since Windows Vista. Who thought putting a hypersensitive pad where a physical Escape key should be was a good idea? When would it ever make sense to kick the user out of the current context when their pinky finger strays a millimeter North of the "1" key? The TouchBar not only provides marginal utility in the best of cases, it is an absolute productivity killer.

And no, I do not have any intention of suing Apple. I would, however love to spend a day on Infinite Loop knocking heads.

Nailed it.
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[futurejetblackowner]

Hurt my feelings ? You do realize you assume everybody agrees with you. You think you’re right when you’re not. MacBooks are not better period. I even prefer MacOS for most things. I was making a statement windows can be viewed just as good.

MacBooks are not better. That is an opinion. I’m sorry I’ve angered you this much where you say things that are simply not true. It seems you have some repressed anger towards Macs. Maybe you should find a new conputer?

 

[Painter2002]

By no means it’s the best laptop. That I would go say buy X windows laptop because they are flat out a better value spec to cost ratio. Reason why I have a MacBook is the better OS though and it’s just flat out better for my needs.

I work on a windows machine and use a Mac at home for my photography. I can tell you that while a MacBook Pro may not have the specs that are as high as some other Windows computers, the software is better paired with it than most Windows machines. MacOS is much less buggy than Windows in a day to day use, especially on a professional level. Not perfect but better imo.

Having said that, if people don’t like their MacBook pros that much, then they return it/sell it and move on. That’s like buying a new car even after test-driving and realizing that for you it’s not comfortable. Apple has a return grace period. Just saying

 

[ixxx69]

I work on a windows machine and use a Mac at home for my photography. I can tell you that while a MacBook Pro may not have the specs that are as high as some other Windows computers, the software is better paired with it than most Windows machines. MacOS is much less buggy than Windows in a day to day use, especially on a professional level. Not perfect but better imo.

Having said that, if people don’t like their MacBook pros that much, then they return it/sell it and move on. That’s like buying a new car even after test-driving and realizing that for you it’s not comfortable. Apple has a return grace period. Just saying

This is so right-on. I'm same boat... been using Windows since the early '90s for work. For personal use, I've gone through phases of Mac, Windows, Linux, back to Windows, and been back on Mac for the last 10 years.

Windows is... fine. Like you said, it's not quite as slick or streamlined, and it's absolutely more "buggy"... and I don't necessarily mean apps crashing, though that does happen more often, but just hardware/driver sort of stuff that is just kind of annoying without being a show stopper. Graphic card glitches, and windows updates that won't install, and just installing and uninstalling software is ungainly... Windows is just kind of clumsy and graceless. And I'm well past the point in life of being interested in hunting down the solutions for those kinds of issues - I just want things to work. I set my desktop screen to gray and turn all the sounds off.

But Windows works, and if you spend most of your time on a computer doing a few specific applications and it's "just a tool" sort of relationship, Windows is fine.

However, I know when I started switching my family members over to Macs (around the same time I came back to them), I received a lot less "support" calls, and they've all liked having Macs more than Windows PCs.

That being said, my biggest beef with Apple these days is their OS/software, across the board... it's just been on a downward slide for years. I really don't know what the heck they're doing, but I think they've lost their way.

 

[groove-agent]

So sell it and move on. Don’t need 500 different threads about it . You could of easily add your complaint in the other ones but nah you had to make thread number 5 or 6 about it . ‍♂️

I think everyone has the right to voice their frustration especially after paying that much money for a premium laptop.

Complaining about people complaining is really the same thing.

 

[ipponrg]

However, I know when I started switching my family members over to Macs (around the same time I came back to them), I received a lot less "support" calls, and they've all liked having Macs more than Windows PCs.

You can thank the Windows registry and viruses for that. Both are a headache to deal with in Windows.

MacOS is great in that there really isn't much of a registry. The sheer fact that apps are typically self contained is great. However, if people started writing more trojans for Macs, you might get those "support" calls.

 

[torana355]

and even the keyboard with flaws or not, still an improvement.

.

The Keyboard is not an improvement. Are you living under a rock? or did a big one fall on your head?

 

[Painter2002]

The Keyboard is not an improvement. Are you living under a rock? or did a big one fall on your head?

To each their own. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but I actually like the keyboard and have faster typing speeds on my 2017 MacBook Pro, with less typing fatigue.

 

[torana355]

To each their own. I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea but I actually like the keyboard and have faster typing speeds on my 2017 MacBook Pro, with less typing fatigue.

I owned a 2016 MBP which I took back, I agree the keyboard was nice to type on, I liked it but the reliability issues make it anything but an improvement.

 

[Painter2002]

I owned a 2016 MBP which I took back, I agree the keyboard was nice to type on, I liked it but the reliability issues make it anything but an improvement.

I won’t argue on the poor reliability no doubt, Apple has some quality control issues on that end, knock on wood I haven’t had any issues with my 2017 model, but I have AppleCare in case I do. I highly anticipate Apple creating an extended warranty plan for the keyboards as more class-action lawsuits pop-up.

 

[DeanPSN]

The Keyboard is not an improvement. Are you living under a rock? or did a big one fall on your head?

Me living under a rock? Seriously?
Well go buy a 2015 MBP and stop complaining if you dont like it.
In my opinion is far superior to previous models and thats it.
Now go bark somewhere else with your frustrations. ;-)

 

[torana355]

Me living under a rock? Seriously?
Well go buy a 2015 MBP and stop complaining if you dont like it.
In my opinion is far superior to previous models and thats it.
Now go bark somewhere else with your frustrations. ;-)

Your opinion means nothing when there are actual issues with the reliability of the keyboard. Im just being objective here. When your machine runs out of warranty and it costs you 400 bucks to get it repaired then we will see how much of an "improvement" you think it is.

 

[DeanPSN]

Your opinion means nothing when there are actual issues with the reliability of the keyboard. Im just being objective here. When your machine runs out of warranty and it costs you 400 bucks to get it repaired then we will see how much of an "improvement" you think it is.

If you put it this way, all the past MBP redesigns had their own issues, from GPUs to staingate and other problems.
If this will be a serious issue, apple will definitely fix it under extended warranty, same as all the previous issues.
I had my own problems with this 2017 MBP, from blown speakers to sticky keys, but that doesn't mean it isn't a big improvement over the previous generations and i wouldn't be able to go back to a 2015 MBP at this point.

 

[Ries]

If you put it this way, all the past MBP redesigns had their own issues, from GPUs to staingate and other problems.
If this will be a serious issue, apple will definitely fix it under extended warranty, same as all the previous issues.
I had my own problems with this 2017 MBP, from blown speakers to sticky keys, but that doesn't mean it isn't a big improvement over the previous generations and i wouldn't be able to go back to a 2015 MBP at this point.

Most of these extended warranty's come from class action suits, not because Apple is benevolent. Most issues had a span of time were Apple just said "pay up or **** off".

 

[Georgetown]

Totally agree. The keyboard on the new MacBooks is TERRIBLE.

The problem is that there is insufficient key travel to provide a satisfying typing experience. It feels like pushing buttons rather than keys. There is no tactile response.

These shallow MacBook keyboards may be fine for producing short blogs or posting on social media, but not for writing longer works - such as articles, scripts or books. (I suspect that the people who designed this keyboard never write anything longer than a two-page email).

Apple used to make the best – most responsive - keyboards in the business. Their obsession with ‘thin-ness’ has blinded them to the pitfalls of shallow key travel.

As one writer on The Verge wrote, ‘The ultra-flat (Macbook) keyboard with 0.55mm key travel is not professionally minded. Its purpose is overall thinness, but I know of no app developers, globetrotting businesspeople, or digital artists that had "more thinness" anywhere near the top of their priority list of MacBook Pro improvements. Professional writers might have asked for more tactile response, not less, and Apple's keyboard alterations seem to primarily serve to optimize and harmonize its design rather than enhance any functionality.’

Amen to that.

This obsession with thin-ness also resulted in the new keyboards become unreliable – it just takes a speck of dirt to make them freeze. Now Apple faces class actions and petitions for the keyboards to be recalled.

Finally, I wish to stress that I am actually an Apple fan, with a home full of their products. But I worry when they sacrifice functionality for form, as they have clearly done with the new MacBook keyboards.

 

[mctrials23]

Anyone who travels a lot with their macbook does care about having a thin and light laptop. As always apple are screwed either way. They make the laptop heavier and thicker and people will say "look at brand x" they have a thinner lighter laptop than Apple so its better. Just accept that not everyone shares the same opinion as you and when you annoy someone with a design change you will probably please someone else.

There are plenty of people on here who like the keyboards and plenty who don't. There are also a massive majority who just use it and don't bother coming to complain on a mac forum about things. I think the keyboard could be better but I don't have any issue with it.

 

[redheeler]

They make the laptop heavier and thicker and people will say "look at brand x" they have a thinner lighter laptop than Apple so its better.

I'd bet on a casual user fretting about which laptop is the thinnest, and hence the MacBook exists. I have no problem with Apple offering the MacBook as a super-thin ultra-portable, though I do think it needs to be cheaper and with two USB-C ports instead of the headphone jack (USB to headphone jack dongle included in the box).

But the target customer base of the MacBook Pro is supposed to be power users and professionals - people who really do need reliability, performance, and battery life over the thinnest and lightest laptop on the market. And I'm sure most wouldn't consider the previous models from 2012-2015 to be thick and heavy either.

 

[Painter2002]

I'd bet on a casual user fretting about which laptop is the thinnest, and hence the MacBook exists. I have no problem with Apple offering the MacBook as a super-thin ultra-portable, though I do think it needs to be cheaper and with two USB-C ports instead of the headphone jack (USB to headphone jack dongle included in the box).

But the target customer base of the MacBook Pro is supposed to be power users and professionals - people who really do need reliability, performance, and battery life over the thinnest and lightest laptop on the market. And I'm sure most wouldn't consider the previous models from 2012-2015 to be thick and heavy either.

As a Pro user, I’d actually say that weight does play a factor when I’m carrying it with a briefcase with other items. For some it’s not a big deal (I.e. of you primarily use it at a desk/dock setup), but a lot of MacBook Pro users get the laptop for portability, otherwise we’d buy iMacs with more powerful specs.

Now having said that, I agree that the obsession of thinness is a little too much ok Apple products as of late. I’d gladly agree to an extra millimeter on my iPhone to have a 2-day battery, and I agree that I’d be fine going back to the slightly thinker 2014 MacBook Pro that I used to have. But I still like the new 2017 MBP design that I use now.

 

[redheeler]

As a Pro user, I’d actually say that weight does play a factor when I’m carrying it with a briefcase with other items. For some it’s not a big deal (I.e. of you primarily use it at a desk/dock setup), but a lot of MacBook Pro users get the laptop for portability, otherwise we’d buy iMacs with more powerful specs.

Now having said that, I agree that the obsession of thinness is a little too much ok Apple products as of late. I’d gladly agree to an extra millimeter on my iPhone to have a 2-day battery, and I agree that I’d be fine going back to the slightly thinker 2014 MacBook Pro that I used to have. But I still like the new 2017 MBP design that I use now.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that Apple should go back to the thicker designs of the last decade. But the MacBook Pro also doesn't need to be the most thin and light laptop on the market, and the 2012-2015 is about as thin and light as it would ever need to get based on current standards and technology IMHO.

 

[T-Diddy_DK]

I agree on all point. After 4 months I still can not type well on this piece of **** MBP TouchBar. And the lack of ports does not support the "Pro" as only amateurs don't need to connect other professional equipment. It's a huge design fail. The keyboard is so noice that I feel embarrassed typing in "public" -and I hit the wrong keys all the time. I am unable to feel where on the keyboard my fingers are. I also move the cursor by mistake because of the idiotically huge track-pad and why oh why would anyone think that "dynamic" function keys (a touch bar) would make life easier? It does not. Its horrible not know which functions are in the different apps. In addition: Today, after less than 4 months owning this machine, the touch bar has now started failing -Mute "button" was stuck -volume up/down ceased to work and even going into preferences>speaker and pulling the volume bar up, it would pull the volume back down as if a physical volume key was stuck. WTF -this is the first Apple product I have ever bought that I am not happy with. At the same time, it is the most expensive Apple product I have ever bought. Whoever made these decisions in the design meetings must have very small hands and must obviously work in a very noisy environment. I can not express how disappointed I am with this piece of **** computer!

I've owned every single Apple laptop made. I'm a collector. I've used them and taken almost all of them apart. I have iBook Clamshells, a Powerbook 2400c, PowerBook Pismos and Wallstreets, MacBook Airs, and many more.

So, I had a Retina MBP 2014 15". Great laptop. I used it a lot. Had the dual graphics cards. Sold it last year and bought a loaded 15" Touchbar MacBook Pro that I've been using as my main computer.

Over the past 8 months, I've tried to like this computer and use it. I wordsmith a lot, but also work with presentation and some graphic stuff.

I hate this computer.

There are things I like about it, like the screen and the design. But that doesn't counteract what's wrong with it. For starters, the keyboard is horrible. I struggle typing on it everyday. And the battery life is terrible. I see that the capacity is only around 6500 mah vs the rMBPs at around 8500 mah.

• The keyboard sucks. It's the most frustrating experience typing on this thing. Lots of errors because the keys are too close together and the travel is so shallow it's like typing on a wooden table.
• Battery life plain sucks thanks to the reduced capacity.
• The Touchbar is just a useless gimmick: I'm not going to take my eyes off the screen and look down at this pixelated mess of a thing, especially when I can: 1) Use onscreen UI elements. 2) Use keyboard shortcuts. 3) Use the trackpad gestures.
• The trackpad is too large as to create waste. By the way, typing waste, I had to go over it 3 times because keys weren't registering and there were mistypes.

So here's what I've done. Bought a new 15" rMBP mid-2015 yesterday and will use it for heavy typing and try and keep using this because I paid so much money for it and it is somewhat powerful.

I realize that there are some people who may like the Touchbar or even the keyboard, but I suspect that the list of those people is few.

My perspective... is that Apple needs a redesign asap. Without delay. It's clear to me that nobody really took ownership of this product other than Jony Ive and his Touchbar nonesense. How could this pass testing and product design reviews unless it's an environment of design by committee and politics. Steve Jobs, the person who would say it sucks and no, is long gone...

 

[Hitrate]

I agree on all point. After 4 months I still can not type well on this piece of **** MBP TouchBar. And the lack of ports does not support the "Pro" as only amateurs don't need to connect other professional equipment. It's a huge design fail. The keyboard is so noice that I feel embarrassed typing in "public" -and I hit the wrong keys all the time. I am unable to feel where on the keyboard my fingers are. I also move the cursor by mistake because of the idiotically huge track-pad and why oh why would anyone think that "dynamic" function keys (a touch bar) would make life easier? It does not. Its horrible not know which functions are in the different apps. In addition: Today, after less than 4 months owning this machine, the touch bar has now started failing -Mute "button" was stuck -volume up/down ceased to work and even going into preferences>speaker and pulling the volume bar up, it would pull the volume back down as if a physical volume key was stuck. WTF -this is the first Apple product I have ever bought that I am not happy with. At the same time, it is the most expensive Apple product I have ever bought. Whoever made these decisions in the design meetings must have very small hands and must obviously work in a very noisy environment. I can not express how disappointed I am with this piece of **** computer!

So glad I built a desktop instead. Still happoly surfing and typing on my early 2011 15" mbp with ssd upgrades galore and internals swapped out in 2015. I won't buy into this ecosystem hardware wise again untill they start fixing these huge mistakes and start listen to their Pro customers.