The subpixel-AA debacle and font rendering

[Idec50]

Just leave the old implementation in place, stop improving it, turn it off by default, and let us turn it on. It's just a stop-gap until 6k monitors cost less than five thousand dollars.

 

[frou]

It was probably Catalyst that tipped the scales.

iOS never had subpixel. So when integrating iOS into macOS Apple would have been faced with having two font rendering approaches under one roof, and thought hell no.

 

[ectoplasmosis]

One more thing, to all of you who are using HDMI connection to your monitors, try to enable 4:4:4 RGB instead of YCbCr, which is default on Mac OS when using HDMI.

Big difference, trust me.

How have you done this?

 

[Theodore Wong]

I will say though, while I was waiting for it to be delivered, I undid the old commands that worked on Mojave, with this combo (with a login/logout after each one):

defaults -currentHost delete -globalDomain AppleFontSmoothing

defaults write -g CGFontRenderingFontSmoothingDisabled -bool YES

...and text clarity did improve compared to how it looked right after upgrading to Catalina, it just wasn't great. I think there's an issue with the commands we all ran for Mojave, where somehow when you upgrade to Catalina it messes things up further.

On an LG UltraWide 34CB99 I can confirm that disabling smoothing with

defaults write -g CGFontRenderingFontSmoothingDisabled -bool YES

having set it to "NO" for previous versions, improves the font appearance.

 

[Idec50]

Has anyone here tried scaling a 27" 4k monitor to 1440p? I have read it isn't good but it would be nice to hear from someone who is dismayed with unscaled 1440p.

 

[DrDyna]

Howdy gang, first post here! Reasonably proud owner of a new (to me) Macbook pro 15" retina (early 2013). It offered me the Catalina update as soon as initial setup was complete, which I accepted, although the place where I purchased it from had the hard disk set as something other than apfs file system for some reason, but that was easy enough to cure with a cmd+r and a repartition.

So far, I love this machine. It's nice looking and simple, and it does everything I need to do. Unfortunately, I've just discovered this issue after trying to plug in my Asus gaming monitor, which is 1080p. It's quite fancy, Macos has no problem seeing the 144 hz refresh rate and adding a monitor profile by name, but the fonts look like...well, if you're reading this thread, I'm sure you know what 4 letter word I'm thinking of.

Out of curiosity, I went out to the mancave with the laptop, where I've got a Vizio 4k television. Plugged into HDMI, it looked wonderful, and fonts rendered baby smooth.

So, I guess it's time for a monitor with a slightly higher ppi count then, eh?

Just to confirm, "Dell Ultra HD 4K Monitor P2415Q" is one that's confirmed to work, with fonts looking reasonably similar to how they do on retina displays?

Are there any other reasonably priced monitors that are confirmed to display retina or near retina quality font smoothing? Bear in mind, I think 3840x2160 is the maximum resolution I think I can get out of the Geforce 650m that's in this laptop, which is probably for the best, as we're working with a small space inside the house, and I can't really fit more than 24" worth of monitor on this small desk.

Thanks a million to everyone who contributed information to this thread, you gave me a lot to tinker with and get to know about my new mac, and a perfect excuse to buy another toy.

EDIT: More reading...30hz only? I didn't check the refresh rate when I tried it on the tv. I guess my best option might be a swing-arm with the laptop on it so I can pull it up to my face.

TL;DR Dell P2415Q is the one to get, yeah? Any others around 24" and reasonably priced? 30hz only?

 

[shinji]

Howdy gang, first post here! Reasonably proud owner of a new (to me) Macbook pro 15" retina (early 2013). It offered me the Catalina update as soon as initial setup was complete, which I accepted, although the place where I purchased it from had the hard disk set as something other than apfs file system for some reason, but that was easy enough to cure with a cmd+r and a repartition.

So far, I love this machine. It's nice looking and simple, and it does everything I need to do. Unfortunately, I've just discovered this issue after trying to plug in my Asus gaming monitor, which is 1080p. It's quite fancy, Macos has no problem seeing the 144 hz refresh rate and adding a monitor profile by name, but the fonts look like...well, if you're reading this thread, I'm sure you know what 4 letter word I'm thinking of.

Out of curiosity, I went out to the mancave with the laptop, where I've got a Vizio 4k television. Plugged into HDMI, it looked wonderful, and fonts rendered baby smooth.

So, I guess it's time for a monitor with a slightly higher ppi count then, eh?

Just to confirm, "Dell Ultra HD 4K Monitor P2415Q" is one that's confirmed to work, with fonts looking reasonably similar to how they do on retina displays?

Are there any other reasonably priced monitors that are confirmed to display retina or near retina quality font smoothing? Bear in mind, I think 3840x2160 is the maximum resolution I think I can get out of the Geforce 650m that's in this laptop, which is probably for the best, as we're working with a small space inside the house, and I can't really fit more than 24" worth of monitor on this small desk.

Thanks a million to everyone who contributed information to this thread, you gave me a lot to tinker with and get to know about my new mac, and a perfect excuse to buy another toy.

EDIT: More reading...30hz only? I didn't check the refresh rate when I tried it on the tv. I guess my best option might be a swing-arm with the laptop on it so I can pull it up to my face.

TL;DR Dell P2415Q is the one to get, yeah? Any others around 24" and reasonably priced? 30hz only?

P2415Q is working great for me. Fonts look fantastic.

The current revision of the Dell P2415Q does support 60hz over HDMI, but older ones didn't. You just have to enable it https://www.dell.com/support/articl...th-hdmi-2-0-that-support-4k-x-2k-60hz?lang=en

I'm not aware of any other 24" 4K monitor besides the cheaper LG (not adjustable height) and the more expensive Ultrafine.

 

[DrDyna]

P2415Q is working great for me. Fonts look fantastic.

The current revision of the Dell P2415Q does support 60hz over HDMI, but older ones didn't. You just have to enable it https://www.dell.com/support/articl...th-hdmi-2-0-that-support-4k-x-2k-60hz?lang=en

I'm not aware of any other 24" 4K monitor besides the cheaper LG (not adjustable height) and the more expensive Ultrafine.

Awesome, thanks!

I've been doing a lot of reading this morning, trying to figure out what monitors might work and which might have problems.

Part of this issue for me with this macbook, is it's a 2013 15" retina, which has the geforce 650. According to most of the things I've read, it will only drive a 4k panel at 30 fps. If I can get it to go to 60 fps by enabling it (via the steps in your link) then that might be the cure.

The other question, perhaps somebody can answer, what about 1440p screens, like BenQ PD2700Q? I've been trying to sift through Amazon reviews, but they're absolutely terrible about mixing reviews and questions for different products all together.

Honestly, I just need a decent external monitor for this thing that won't goof the fonts. If I'm stuck at 30hz refresh with 4k, can anyone confirm that 1440p screens work with fonts properly, or do we have to go all the way up to 4k?

EDIT: I've already got a thunderbolt (2, I guess?) to displayport cable that I purchased for my existing monitor, so I don't have to worry about hdmi, unless that's somehow better.

 

[frou]

Try not to paint yourself into a 30 Hz scenario. It's not fun to use a computer when even the mouse cursor is jerky.

 

[DrDyna]

Try not to paint yourself into a 30 Hz scenario. It's not fun to use a computer when even the mouse cursor is jerky.

The early 2013 rmbp 15" should be able to do 1440@60, just a question of whether or not Catalina will enable all the bells and whistles without issue, or if it's going to be a hacky hoop jumping mess of terminal commands for hidpi, enabling hidden resolutions, switchresx - and then in the end, fonts still looking like an Atari 2600.

 

[shinji]

Awesome, thanks!

I've been doing a lot of reading this morning, trying to figure out what monitors might work and which might have problems.

Part of this issue for me with this macbook, is it's a 2013 15" retina, which has the geforce 650. According to most of the things I've read, it will only drive a 4k panel at 30 fps. If I can get it to go to 60 fps by enabling it (via the steps in your link) then that might be the cure.

The other question, perhaps somebody can answer, what about 1440p screens, like BenQ PD2700Q? I've been trying to sift through Amazon reviews, but they're absolutely terrible about mixing reviews and questions for different products all together.

Honestly, I just need a decent external monitor for this thing that won't goof the fonts. If I'm stuck at 30hz refresh with 4k, can anyone confirm that 1440p screens work with fonts properly, or do we have to go all the way up to 4k?

EDIT: I've already got a thunderbolt (2, I guess?) to displayport cable that I purchased for my existing monitor, so I don't have to worry about hdmi, unless that's somehow better.

Oh, I thought you were referring to the P2415Q itself being incapable of 4k@60hz (which earlier versions of it were). Those steps in the Dell support article only enable it if your GPU allows for it. If the GeForce 650 can't do 4k@60hz, then those steps won't work.

 

[DrDyna]

So, now I'm leaning towards the Dell Ultrasharp U2518D (2560x1440@60) for this (early) 2013 rMPB.

It should run with the Geforce 650m at it's native resolution and refresh rate, but can anyone confirm that Catalina will display fonts properly with it? Is it high enough resolution to have the retina-esque font handling with minimal trickery?

 

[frou]

So, now I'm leaning towards the Dell Ultrasharp U2518D (2560x1440@60) for this (early) 2013 rMPB.

It should run with the Geforce 650m at it's native resolution and refresh rate, but can anyone confirm that Catalina will display fonts properly with it? Is it high enough resolution to have the retina-esque font handling with minimal trickery?

That Dell is 117 PPI so text will look similar to a 13.3" non-Retina MBP (113 PPI) or a touch sharper than Apple's 27" Thunderbolt Display (109 PPI).

Same number of pixels used for each character as you're seeing on your current Asus monitor, but it'll look less blocky because each pixel is physically smaller.

Say we classify PPI for macOS as 3 levels (Subnormal, Normal, Retina), then this is a move from the first to the second.

 

[DrDyna]

That Dell is 117 PPI so text will look similar to a 13.3" non-Retina MBP (113 PPI) or a touch sharper than Apple's 27" Thunderbolt Display (109 PPI).

Same number of pixels used for each character as you're seeing on your current Asus monitor, but it'll look less blocky because each pixel is physically smaller.

Say we classify PPI for macOS as 3 levels (Subnormal, Normal, Retina), then this is a move from the first to the second.

Thank you! I'm starting to get the hang of the whole dpi/ppi thing, and how it relates to Apple's retina, how they compare resolutions, and their scaling.

I didn't realize that even this old 2013 rMBP has an actual resolution of 2880x1800! The os merely uses / reports 1440x900 because it's scaled up to double (HiDPI).

I'm starting to get the hang of everything in mac land. I suppose as technology improves over time, all computers will eventually follow suit, I mean, why not.

As for what screen I decided to go with, I just went ahead and got a 4k one, LG 27UL500-W. Sure, the mac laptop wil only drive it at 30hz, however my windows gaming rig (Ryzen 2600 / 1080ti) will do it at 60. Realistically, I don't think I'll mind 30hz for the stuff I do on the laptop, and I might just end up buying a mac mini later this year to use as a desktop anyway, and let the laptop do it's job as a portable with it's existing screen.

Thanks for the help!

 

[frou]

As for what screen I decided to go with, I just went ahead and got a 4k one, LG 27UL500-W.

Be careful. Arguably the sane configuration for macOS UI elements to end up the right physical size on a 27" 4K monitor is for a 5K HiDPI image to be rendered, that's then resized to 4K before being sent to the monitor. Not sure the GeForce 650 (or Mac Mini iGPU) has enough grunt to do that.

 

[DrDyna]

Be careful. Arguably the sane configuration for macOS UI elements to end up the right physical size on a 27" 4K monitor is for a 5K HiDPI image to be rendered, that's then resized to 4K before being sent to the monitor. Not sure the GeForce 650 (or Mac Mini iGPU) has enough grunt to do that.

The 650 in the macbook pro seems to display fine 4k@30 on my 4k television, in what I think is "looks like" 1440p or something like that. I haven't researched much into the mac mini line, but I have a sneaking suspicion new ones will be out before I pull the trigger on one.

If I've gotta throw a thunderbolt 2 egpu into the mix, I might do that.

I've also got the hardware laying around for a...not so mac mac, which I may tinker with.

 

[behemot]

I've got Benq PD2700U. It is connected to MBP 16" by Mini DP.

It works great when I set these resolutions:

• 1920x1080
• 2560x1440

Text is clear and looks the same as on Retina display.

But when I change resolutions to higher ones, like these:

• 3008x1692
• 3840x2160 (native for monitor)

Text looks ragged, definitely not clean. Linux works great with 4K resolution. Text is small but very clean. I expected the same on Mac. I wonder where is the problem? Is mac not able to display clean text on highest resolution?

 

[Heat_Fan89]

I've got Benq PD2700U. It is connected to MBP 16" by Mini DP.

It works great when I set these resolutions:

• 1920x1080
• 2560x1440

Text is clear and looks the same as on Retina display.

But when I change resolutions to higher ones, like these:

• 3008x1692
• 3840x2160 (native for monitor)

Text looks ragged, definitely not clean. Linux works great with 4K resolution. Text is small but very clean. I expected the same on Mac. I wonder where is the problem? Is mac not able to display clean text on highest resolution?

When you run System Report what does it say for resolution? I see on my 2018 Mac Mini System Report:
Displays: PHL 278E1:
Resolution: 3840 x 2160 (2160p/4K UHD 1 - Ultra High Definition) UI Looks like: 1920 x 1080 @ 60 Hz

If I scale the resolution UI to 4K everything is tiny. For me the UI at 1920x1080 is PERFECT. Just the right size and everything looks crisp and clear so do the other scaled UI resolutions except everything is smaller.

I was at Best Buy and I got to play with a 4K iMac and even though everything was set to 4K, the UI is actually scaled at 2K. I discovered that by going thru the different scaling resolutions and matching it to the default display settings and they were a match. Anything above a 2K UI on a 4K iMac also gets real tiny.

 

[behemot]

I know that anything above 2K looks tiny. But on Mac it looks really ugly compared to the same resolution on Linux.

Please see the screenshot, both at 3840x2160 resolution

1) Linux

2) macOS Catalina 10.15.4

The original image on Mac looks even worse than here after upload - I suppose macrumors forum optimize image.

 

[Populus]

Hey, after a long time following this topic, and after several months on stable Catalina releases, I can say that, at least in my monitor, Catalina looks OK. I don’t have the issue I had on Mojave anymore. Or at least I can’t perceive it, I read correctly the fonts, and I don’t see bad font rendering.

I have to say that I haven’t modified anything on Catalina. On Mojave I tweaked the system font rendering and smoothing via Terminal, but on Catalina I haven’t touched anything, and it is a clean fresh install.

So, at least for me, the font rendering issue on my 1920x1200 monitor is solved. And honestly I don’t want to think about it, as I don’t want to be obsessive about it anymore. I will come back if future releases break it again.

 

[errrr]

Having a higher resolution (>1080p) monitor doesn't really solve the problem.

I recently moved to Mac (10.15.4), and I'm using a Dell P2418D monitor (supports 1440p). The problem with the higher resolution is that everything looks so small that it makes my head hurt after 5 minutes of usage.

Lowering to 1080p or similar is my only option, and none of the font smoothing options / settings looks good. I sticked with the default Catalina settings, but the fonts still look pretty blurry in comparison to the builtin display or to Windows machines.

 

[Ritsuka]

It does solve the problem, but you need to have a display with an high enough resolution to enable the Hi-DPI resolutions.
This means at least a 4k 24" or 21" or a 5k 27" or 30" monitor usually.
The Dell P2418D 1440p resolution is too low.

 

[theorist9]

Having a higher resolution (>1080p) monitor doesn't really solve the problem.

I recently moved to Mac (10.15.4), and I'm using a Dell P2418D monitor (supports 1440p). The problem with the higher resolution is that everything looks so small that it makes my head hurt after 5 minutes of usage.

Lowering to 1080p or similar is my only option, and none of the font smoothing options / settings looks good. I sticked with the default Catalina settings, but the fonts still look pretty blurry in comparison to the builtin display or to Windows machines.

Ritsuka is right. If you get a display with "Retina" resolution (~220 ppi) (which would mean, for example, a 27" 5k), and use it at the "default for display" resolution in display settings, then the text will be both normal-sized and sharp. You can see this if you have access to a store that sells iMac's.

Since my 27" monitor is 4k rather than 5k, it's not quite retina, and doesn't look good with Catalina. So I've stayed with High Sierra, where it looks great.

 

[errrr]

Interesting. The question is whether the text on the default resolution (4k / 5k) is big enough, and if not, can you scale it up like you can with Retina displays?

 

[theorist9]

Interesting. The question is whether the text on the default resolution (4k / 5k) is big enough, and if not, can you scale it up like you can with Retina displays?

Not sure I understand your question -- a 27" 5k is a retina display.