Other This is why I will not buy iPhone 12: OLED = PWM

[jm31828]

Ironically enough, us being sensitive to PWM seems like a good thing in this case because it would lead us to using PWM screens much less than average

Haha true!
I hate giving up my amazing 12 mini, but I think it gives me peace of mind knowing I’ll be back to using my 11 which has no flicker... just on the off chance that the flicker could be harmful to those of us who are sensitive.

 

[jm31828]

So were crt tv’s and computer monitors just as bad for a minority of people like pwm is now?

 

[gigapocket1]

Using the pro max and in very dizzy/ feels like motion sickness.

I had the 11 pro max and no issue

what could be the cause?

Literally having the exact same issue... I’ve been feeling sick to my stomach for the last 2-3 weeks and i couldn’t figure out why..

 

[dan98]

So were crt tv’s and computer monitors just as bad for a minority of people like

CRTs didn't use PWM because they were analogue. The flicker rate is different from PWM.
LCDs sometime use PWM but we’re never really an issue as far as i know due to the 'soft' nature of the PWM.
The problem started with LED and OLED. The hard edge PWM cross-modulates with the refresh flicker causing confusion in the brain/balancing system.
This manifests as dizziness / eye strain and all kinds of awful side effects.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Just a warning that it’s not just pwm messing with us. I had to give up my iPhone SE. Another forum member said there’s something called dithering that the display does. I can’t remember exactly what it is used for but I think it has to do with colors. Anyway, it results in its own flashing of things off and on.

So, when I use the LCD on my iPhone SE after a few minutes I get an incredibly peculiar migraine aura that causes something like a shimmering white curtain in my peripheral vision.

It doesn’t end up in a full migraine head pain but it is unbearably annoying.

I can use the LCD on my iPad mini 5 and the OLED on my iPhone 11 Pro okay. Though I do seem to be very clumsy since phones we left iPhone 8 behind. I dearly wish I had kept that phone as I originally intended when I bought two of them. But they had the worst modems and sound on calls. At least mine did. They were barely usable as phones where I live.

Perfect description "shimmering white curtain in my peripheral vision".

This is what I've found with earlier OLED iPhones and most definitely with the standard iphone 12 straight away.

I didn't experience this with the 12 Pro Max but I could feel the side of my eyes becoming fatigued. Unfortunately because I was switching between the 12PM and the 12 I ended up with a terrible migraine which may have been down to the 12 only - maybe I could have lived with the 12 PM? Well it was too late to test this theory as a splitting headache and eye strain had me driving to my local Apple store for a swift refund. I'm not spending over £1000 to become ill!

 

[patent10021]

Late to the party.

I am using an iPhone X (OLED) and have been getting pretty bad eye-strain and headaches.

I just searched today if OLED can cause these issues and sure enough many others are experiencing the same thing.

I'm not just noticing it now of course, but only recently have begun to think of the effects of OLED since I use Flux for my MBP and recently it seems like my vision and aches are getting worse more rapidly.

Then I read here that it might be due to PWM/flickering. So I guess this is a real thing.

I was thinking I could get an iPhone 12 because the display might be different but read that it's the same.

Will the iPhone 13 have a different display?

p.s. What is easier on the eyes, dark-mode or day-mode? At first I thought dark-mode should be better, but it seems harder to read white text on black. For me, it seems like dark-mode lead to more eye-strain because the eyes are trying to focus on the bright text (in a dark room environment) whereas with day-mode the eyes just seem to naturally pick up the text with natural day light. Strange theory?

 

[TrueBlou]

I’m glad I’m not affected by PWM, in the years I’ve been using screens which employ it, I’ve never had an issue - maybe it’s the copious amount of medication I have to take

But with the amount of time I spend on my phone, I’d be in hell if it was an issue for me.

I do however, wish that they would rectify the problem, as there always seems to be enough people for whom it is an issue.

 

[russell_314]

Late to the party.

I am using an iPhone X (OLED) and have been getting pretty bad eye-strain and headaches.

I just searched today if OLED can cause these issues and sure enough many others are experiencing the same thing.

I'm not just noticing it now of course, but only recently have begun to think of the effects of OLED since I use Flux for my MBP and recently it seems like my vision and aches are getting worse more rapidly.

Then I read here that it might be due to PWM/flickering. So I guess this is a real thing.

I was thinking I could get an iPhone 12 because the display might be different but read that it's the same.

Will the iPhone 13 have a different display?

p.s. What is easier on the eyes, dark-mode or day-mode? At first I thought dark-mode should be better, but it seems harder to read white text on black. For me, it seems like dark-mode lead to more eye-strain because the eyes are trying to focus on the bright text (in a dark room environment) whereas with day-mode the eyes just seem to naturally pick up the text with natural day light. Strange theory?

When I went from my iPhone 7 Plus to my XS Max I had a transition period of a few weeks where it made me a little dizzy sometimes and hurt my eyes. I don't know if this was PWM, something to do with OLED brightness or just in my head because I read about it somewhere. Right now I'm on the 12 Pro Max and no issues at all.

As to the 13 it's going to have OLED like the 12, 11, and X before it. I don't see OLED going away anytime soon. I suspect it'll start coming out in mid range televisions soon.

 

[patent10021]

For anyone who is interested. Seems to work.

iPhone X Eye Strain: How to Stop OLED Flickering in Just Three Clicks

The iPhone X uses a new (for Apple) display technology. For the first time ever, Apple went with an OLED display instead of the IPS panels used in all other iPhones. While OLED displays have numerous benefits such as the true blacks and wide color gamut, the majority of OLED displays (particularly t

blog.elcomsoft.com

And I read that Samsung phones (not sure which ones) don't have flickering because they don't use backlighting? They use self-illuminate (self-lit) or something. Not sure exactly.

I supposed it's possible that since I've been using dark-mode everywhere that might be affecting my vision? I've had to use larger text in almost everything I do now. I know vision gets worse with age but this seems to be rapid in my case. And yes, I've gone to the optometrist. No signs of disease etc.

 

[russell_314]

For anyone who is interested. Seems to work.

iPhone X Eye Strain: How to Stop OLED Flickering in Just Three Clicks

The iPhone X uses a new (for Apple) display technology. For the first time ever, Apple went with an OLED display instead of the IPS panels used in all other iPhones. While OLED displays have numerous benefits such as the true blacks and wide color gamut, the majority of OLED displays (particularly t

blog.elcomsoft.com

And I read that Samsung phones (not sure which ones) don't have flickering because they don't use backlighting? They use self-illuminate (self-lit) or something. Not sure exactly.

I supposed it's possible that since I've been using dark-mode everywhere that might be affecting my vision? I've had to use larger text in almost everything I do now. I know vision gets worse with age but this seems to be rapid in my case. And yes, I've gone to the optometrist. No signs of disease etc.

Apple uses Samsung OLED panels. To the best of my knowledge OLED doesn't use backlighting. It has individually lit pixels. LCD uses backlighting but the only way you'll get that is with a budget Android or an iPhone SE

 

[Moonjumper]

Apple uses Samsung OLED panels. To the best of my knowledge OLED doesn't use backlighting. It has individually lit pixels. LCD uses backlighting but the only way you'll get that is with a budget Android or an iPhone SE

Yes, OLED does not used backlighting. But that is not the complete issue, most screen technologies can suffer from PWM. That is why you see some monitors advertised as “flicker free”. Those that are not flicker free are using PWM on the backlight. This wasn’t a big problem on CRT monitors because afterglow meant the backlight never went black between pulses. It got a bit worse with LCD screens, but became more of a problem when they switched from CCFL to LED for the backlights as they switched off so rapidly.

Despite what was said in post number 1, DC dimming is the solution, but it is hard to do on OLED.

PWM sends full power to the pixel (for OLED, backlight for LCD), but turns it on and off rapidly to control the brightness. The darker it needs to be, the more time it is off, and the more likely flicker will be an issue.

DC dimming sends just the right amount of power to illuminate to the level needed. The problem is quality needs to be very high, otherwise small variations between pixels becomes noticeable when trying to show the same colour.

 

[patent10021]

That's why I mentioned Sammy. I don't know much about the topic but I've read some of their displays don't have pwm/flickering. Just because Sammy makes Apple's displays, doesn't mean Apple is using the same displays as Sammy's phones which they obviously aren't because specific Sammy displays don't have flickering.

Anyway, the other blog I read and linked to says that simply using iPhone nightshift "blue light cut/yellow light" does not stop the flickering.

@Moonjumper when you say DC dimming are you referring to the same dimming that I linked to? For iPhones you have to go into Accessibility -> Display & Text Size -> Reduce White Point (80%-100%). This is the only way to eliminate flickering on an OLED iPhone (as far as I can tell).

 

[russell_314]

That's why I mentioned Sammy. I don't know much about the topic but I've read some of their displays don't have pwm/flickering. Just because Sammy makes Apple's displays, doesn't mean Apple is using the same displays as Sammy's phones which they obviously aren't because specific Sammy displays don't have flickering.

Anyway, the other blog I read and linked to says that simply using iPhone nightshift "blue light cut/yellow light" does not stop the flickering.

@Moonjumper when you say DC dimming are you referring to the same dimming that I linked to? For iPhones you have to go into Accessibility -> Display & Text Size -> Reduce White Point (80%-100%). This is the only way to eliminate flickering on an OLED iPhone (as far as I can tell).

Well you could try a Samsung phone and see if it works for you. Most places have a return period but just make sure you stay within it.

 

[DJTaurus]

I am very very disappointed on that matter.

From what I remember i didn’t have huge isssues with iPhone X other than eye fatigue/strain. Nausea and dizziness started with iPhone XS. Hopefully a thread here was an eye opening and my issues went instantly away when i switched to iPhone XR. Then i moved to iPhone 11 and this year i wanted to try 12..... the first 2 days with it were ok. After that i suddenly was feeling dizziness whenever i moved my eyes away from the iPhone screen.... day by day it was getting even worse where i had light form of dizziness the WHOLE F day. After one week also symptoms of nausea occurred.... switched immediately back to my 11.... on day 2 i have minimal dizziness and getting better and back to normal. My wife also noticed that the week with 12 my eyes become more yellow. W T F ??????

I don’t know about technical stuff but how 120Hz are supposed to solve that issue ? I even tried to use 12 with full brightness all the time with no results......

I am so sad cause 12 is a fantastic phone. Light and blazing fast compared to 11......

 

[patent10021]

Well you could try a Samsung phone and see if it works for you. Most places have a return period but just make sure you stay within it.

Not really any point when flickering can be fixed by using the white point setting.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Not really any point when flickering can be fixed by using the white point setting.

Nah - not spending over £1000 to have a dull screen with a sketchy work around thanks.

 

[Moonjumper]

That's why I mentioned Sammy. I don't know much about the topic but I've read some of their displays don't have pwm/flickering. Just because Sammy makes Apple's displays, doesn't mean Apple is using the same displays as Sammy's phones which they obviously aren't because specific Sammy displays don't have flickering.

Anyway, the other blog I read and linked to says that simply using iPhone nightshift "blue light cut/yellow light" does not stop the flickering.

@Moonjumper when you say DC dimming are you referring to the same dimming that I linked to? For iPhones you have to go into Accessibility -> Display & Text Size -> Reduce White Point (80%-100%). This is the only way to eliminate flickering on an OLED iPhone (as far as I can tell).

I don't think it is the same. As far as I can tell, the purpose of what you described is to reduce the luminosity at which PWM is a problem, and that point is below where it will be a problem for most use cases.

PWM has been a problem for me previously with a monitor, so I am reluctant to get an iPhone 12 until I can have a good play with one to see if they do affect me, which is a shame as the Mini is the first iPhone since the SE1 I have that is about the size I want, but I cannot see one under the current Covid restrictions.

Hopefully there will soon be iPhone OLED screens without PWM, or we see a new screen technology on iPhones, and it won't be affected by PWM (not guaranteed for any technology). There is a reasonable chance of that with miniLED, microLED, QNED (Samsung are apparently hoping to introduce TVs with it in 2021), and AMQLED (self-emitting electroluminescent quantum dots, as opposed to the photoluminescent already on the market, BOE has announced a TV display using it) all on the way.

 

[patent10021]

But from what I've been reading, PWM is causing the flickering.

And that flickering which can be seen here, is eliminated by using a reduced white point via Accessibility settings.

 

[patent10021]

Lazy workaround? Not sure who's lazy. It's a built in iOS setting. You turn on one toggle. It's not a workaround. Was meant exactly for this purpose hence "accessibility".

 

[The.Glorious.Son]

I ran a test on my 12 Pro Max and found that while reducing white point as low as it will go certainly reduces the flickering a lot, it doesn’t fully mitigate it. But aside from that, anyone know what affect if any these scrolling purple/white/black bars has on the eyes? It remained the same regardless of the flicker. Nothing present on the 11 when do the same video test.

 

[MICHAELSD]

View attachment 1686224

I ran a test on my 12 Pro Max and found that while reducing white point as low as it will go certainly reduces the flickering a lot, it doesn’t fully mitigate it. But aside from that, anyone know what affect if any these scrolling purple/white/black bars has on the eyes? It remained the same regardless of the flicker. Nothing present on the 11 when do the same video test.

FWIW somebody measured the flicker coefficient in another thread and it’s actually better not to use Reduce White Point. The screen flickers more at 100% brightness with the setting enabled than it normally would.

I’m starting to have doubts about getting an iPhone 12 Pro Max, but Apple has no options for people that suffer from PWM.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Lazy workaround? Not sure who's lazy. It's a built in iOS setting. You turn on one toggle. It's not a workaround. Was meant exactly for this purpose hence "accessibility".

It is not a feature that was added to deal with PWM, it was added many years before OLED was added to iPhone. It also affects the quality of the image being displayed because it dims the screen brightness and colours and doesn't mitigate PWM completely. You are degrading the quality of what you are looking at, using one of the most expensive phones, which is using one of "the best displays" on the market with a feature designed to help people who have issues with brightness and/or colours due to health or disability concerns.

It is as bad a workaround as adding colour filters which is another "fix" people have suggested using over the years. Oh, and another idea is to run the screen at 100% all the time 🤦‍♂️. If people found out that if you wear a special pair of glasses to be able to use phones, ipads and macs there would be some that make that purchase. I prefer my products to work as designed out of the box.


If I seem off in my answer it is because for years we've had a few schools of thought regarding PWM, none of which address the issue:

1. Never heard of it, must be you....
2. It isn't an issue for me....
3. You will get used to it/your eyes will adjust....
4. Just use colour filters....
5. Just use reduce white point setting....


If it works for you then more power to you, but it is not a fix for PWM.

 

[jimmy_uk]

FWIW somebody measured the flicker coefficient in another thread and it’s actually better not to use Reduce White Point. The screen flickers more at 100% brightness with the setting enabled than it normally would.

I’m starting to have doubts about getting an iPhone 12 Pro Max, but Apple has no options for people that suffer from PWM.

They do, but not flagship phones. iPhone XR, 11, SE 2020. Not a very exciting lineup especially now the 12 Series is out.

Apple has never made a comment about their use of OLED regarding PWM, why the displays get more yellow/orange each year and why no two iPhone screens are the same. But I bet if challenged they would simply point out that they have alternative phones for people who want "other" options.

Personally, I want a premium iPhone that uses LCD at this point.

 

[George Dawes]

I read that the 13 will have 120hz display

Probably worth waiting for that if you have issues with the screen I guess

 

[DJTaurus]

I read that the 13 will have 120hz display

Probably worth waiting for that if you have issues with the screen I guess

120hz panels are PWM free ?