Other This is why I will not buy iPhone 12: OLED = PWM

[George Dawes]

This might be useful

How to test my Monitor for PWM flicker? | IrisTech

Do you know what PWM Flicker is? Well, it can be very dangerous for your PC, so hurry up and test your PC for it now.

iristech.co

 

[jimmy_uk]

120hz panels are PWM free ?

Nope. Apple use Samsung displays, Samsung already has 120hz phones and they still have low PWM rates.

 

[MICHAELSD]

It is not a feature that was added to deal with PWM, it was added many years before OLED was added to iPhone. It also affects the quality of the image being displayed because it dims the screen brightness and colours and doesn't mitigate PWM completely. You are degrading the quality of what you are looking at, using one of the most expensive phones, which is using one of "the best displays" on the market with a feature designed to help people who have issues with brightness and/or colours due to health or disability concerns.

It is as bad a workaround as adding colour filters which is another "fix" people have suggested using over the years. Oh, and another idea is to run the screen at 100% all the time 🤦‍♂️. If people found out that if you wear a special pair of glasses to be able to use phones, ipads and macs there would be some that make that purchase. I prefer my products to work as designed out of the box.


If I seem off in my answer it is because for years we've had a few schools of thought regarding PWM, none of which address the issue:

1. Never heard of it, must be you....
2. It isn't an issue for me....
3. You will get used to it/your eyes will adjust....
4. Just use colour filters....
5. Just use reduce white point setting....


If it works for you then more power to you, but it is not a fix for PWM.

I actually find that while Reduce White Point diminishes display quality on a LCD display, on an OLED it makes colors appear deeper, more vibrant, and gives the display an even higher perceived contrast IMO.

That’s beside the point though since it doesn’t fix the issue. It is a less accurate way to view the display, but some people may enjoy the more saturated look.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Nope. Apple use Samsung displays, Samsung already has 120hz phones and they still have low PWM rates.

Technically it’s built to Apple’s specification so if they wanted to incorporate DC dimming into an OLED display they probably could.

LG’s OLED televisions don’t use PWM.

 

[jimmy_uk]

Technically it’s built to Apple’s specification so if they wanted to incorporate DC dimming into an OLED display they probably could.

LG’s OLED televisions don’t use PWM.

Sure, but we've had the X, XS, 11 Pro, 12 Pro and they haven't done it yet so I don't think it's a concern to Apple. There's always the "next one" line of thinking with Apple products but I've been thinking this for 4yrs. Glass half empty on this one for me. 🤷‍♂️

 

[MICHAELSD]

Sure, but we've had the X, XS, 11 Pro, 12 Pro and they haven't done it yet so I don't think it's a concern to Apple. There's always the "next one" line of thinking with Apple products but I've been thinking this for 4yrs. Glass half empty on this one for me. 🤷‍♂️

We may not see a meaningful change until they switch to a different display technology, which is disappointing.

 

[tonybarnaby]

I’m starting to have doubts about getting an iPhone 12 Pro Max, but Apple has no options for people that suffer from PWM.

It all depends if you’re willing to give it a chance, and whether or not you have it in you to return the phone if it bothers you. I have seen several people who have pwm issues, yet they refuse to give up their phone. I was upset my xs max didn’t work out for me, but I didn’t hesitate to return it. I wish you the best, but I think we both know how this is going to end.

 

[MICHAELSD]

It all depends if you’re willing to give it a chance, and whether or not you have it in you to return the phone if it bothers you. I have seen several people who have pwm issues, yet they refuse to give up their phone. I was upset my xs max didn’t work out for me, but I didn’t hesitate to return it. I wish you the best, but I think we both know how this is going to end.

As much as I enjoy the newer iPhone design and having an OLED display, no phone is worth having migraines all-day-long. I will admit it is probably just wishful thinking that I’ll be able to buy an iPhone 12 Pro Max and use it without issues, but it seems like the PWM is improved to an extent compared to past years.

 

[DJTaurus]

It took me almost 3 days after returning back to my 11 in order for dizziness to completely go away..... unF....ing believable

 

[MICHAELSD]

“Above 22% the iPhone goes into 60 Hz mode, a method also commonly used for DC dimming. This maximum brightness achieved in this mode is around 150 nits, which means it will be most commonly used indoors. Brightness then increases significantly, and amplitude response becomes somewhat irregular. Given that the amount of ambient light will be fairly high in these cases the strain on the eyes of the user should be fairly low as well if the ambient light sensor is used to regulate display brightness.

Apple does not refer to this as DC dimming but rather uses a very complex finely tuned display controller to reduce the effects of PWM as much as possible. However, some strain may still occur, and we cannot ultimately say that it will be completely and 100% perfect.”

iPhone 12 Pro: Pulse Width Modulation for the OLED Display

Just like all OLED displays the iPhone 12 Pro’s will also be utilizing Pulse Width Modulation for brightness regulation. We took a closer look at it and would like to present you with our findings.

www.notebookcheck.net

These articles are translated from German so it’s not totally clear, but they seem to claim that 22-50% brightness on iPhone 12 Pro is essentially DC dimming.

It seems to possibly be different on iPhone 12 Pro Max based on their review since they didn’t do a full breakdown like they did with iPhone 12 Pro.

 

[gigapocket1]

So going to return my 12 pro max but have no clue what phone to get.. The 11 Pro did not bother me at all. the 12 pro max has me dizzy for the last 3 weeks..

 

[daviddcmd]

So going to return my 12 pro max but have no clue what phone to get.. The 11 Pro did not bother me at all. the 12 pro max has me dizzy for the last 3 weeks..

Same here, boxed up the 12 Pro Max and sent it back. Had it since launch and while the symptoms were milder than the 12 and 12 Pro I still had some eye strain even using reduce white point. Very disappointing but my 11 Pro Max is almost as good and doesn't cause me issues.

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

Some people just really sensitive to this? I"ve never noticed.

 

[MacDaddyPanda]

So it's worse at lower screen brightness? INteresting. Because I keep it darker than most people. Never bothered me.

 

[5105973]

They do, but not flagship phones. iPhone XR, 11, SE 2020. Not a very exciting lineup especially now the 12 Series is out.

Apple has never made a comment about their use of OLED regarding PWM, why the displays get more yellow/orange each year and why no two iPhone screens are the same. But I bet if challenged they would simply point out that they have alternative phones for people who want "other" options.

Personally, I want a premium iPhone that uses LCD at this point.

One of the older iPhone 8 Plus LCD’s definitely! But my eyes suffered worse on my 2020 SE than they do on my 11 Pro. White shimmer on the periphery of my vision plagued me whenever I used that display for any length of time. There is some sort of flickering going on with that display as well. It’s not pwm but dithering. Drat I can never remember the exact term. I need to get it tattooed on my han

And my Pixel 3XL OLED display is the easiest display on my eyes so far, at least for text. It is terrible for movies, though because it smears blacks so you can’t make out the darker scenes of a movie.

The iPhone XR display felt kind of harsh to my eyes, too when I had it.

As to the permanent consequences to our vision, I never knew there were any, but apparently they can contribute to age related macular degeneration. Someone posted a link to an article somewhere around here.

In the last couple of years I went from having no noticeable floaters to having a lot. I really need to get my opthamologist to take a look but thanks to Covid I’m behind on my appointment and not going in anytime soon given how close the poor man has to get to my face.

 

[gigapocket1]

Same here, boxed up the 12 Pro Max and sent it back. Had it since launch and while the symptoms were milder than the 12 and 12 Pro I still had some eye strain even using reduce white point. Very disappointing but my 11 Pro Max is almost as good and doesn't cause me issues.

So are u going back to yhour 11 pro? Or doing something entirely different?

 

[nadiamo]

Last year when I upgraded my 6s+ to 11 pro, I had eye discomfort and headaches for a week, eventually I returned the pro and bought an iPhone 11, no issue at all. Today my partner received the iPhone 12 mini and I was setting it up, I have to say I felt slight headache and head tightness right away, after I finished setting it up I went back to my 11 and the issues went away. I tried the 12 mini few times this afternoon and my eyes felt weird each time as soon as I looked at that screen. I guess I won’t be able to upgrade to any iPhones in the future if they use OLED only. I ordered an iPad Pro 11 and that should come in few days, I’m really hoping the new iPad Pro won’t give me the same issue.

 

[MICHAELSD]

Last year when I upgraded my 6s+ to 11 pro, I had eye discomfort and headaches for a week, eventually I returned the pro and bought an iPhone 11, no issue at all. Today my partner received the iPhone 12 mini and I was setting it up, I have to say I felt slight headache and head tightness right away, after I finished setting it up I went back to my 11 and the issues went away. I tried the 12 mini few times this afternoon and my eyes felt weird each time as soon as I looked at that screen. I guess I won’t be able to upgrade to any iPhones in the future if they use OLED only. I ordered an iPad Pro 11 and that should come in few days, I’m really hoping the new iPad Pro won’t give me the same issue.

You should be fine with the iPad since it’s LCD. I haven’t used an iPad in years but I also just ordered an iPad Air partly because I’m not confident I’ll be able to continuously use iPhone 12 Pro Max.

 

[tonybarnaby]

One of the older iPhone 8 Plus LCD’s definitely! But my eyes suffered worse on my 2020 SE than they do on my 11 Pro. White shimmer on the periphery of my vision plagued me whenever I used that display for any length of time. There is some sort of flickering going on with that display as well. It’s not pwm but dithering. Drat I can never remember the exact term. I need to get it tattooed on my han

And my Pixel 3XL OLED display is the easiest display on my eyes so far, at least for text. It is terrible for movies, though because it smears blacks so you can’t make out the darker scenes of a movie.

The iPhone XR display felt kind of harsh to my eyes, too when I had it.

As to the permanent consequences to our vision, I never knew there were any, but apparently they can contribute to age related macular degeneration. Someone posted a link to an article somewhere around here.

In the last couple of years I went from having no noticeable floaters to having a lot. I really need to get my opthamologist to take a look but thanks to Covid I’m behind on my appointment and not going in anytime soon given how close the poor man has to get to my face.

Temporal dithering is what you were looking for

 

[5105973]

Temporal dithering is what you were looking for

I get told that every time and I can never remember that term for some reason. Gah! Thank you!

 

[daviddcmd]

So are u going back to yhour 11 pro? Or doing something entirely different?

Going back to 11 Pro Max

 

[x-evil-x]

CRTs didn't use PWM because they were analogue. The flicker rate is different from PWM.
LCDs sometime use PWM but we’re never really an issue as far as i know due to the 'soft' nature of the PWM.
The problem started with LED and OLED. The hard edge PWM cross-modulates with the refresh flicker causing confusion in the brain/balancing system.
This manifests as dizziness / eye strain and all kinds of awful side effects.

what about interlaced content? 720i and 1080i. Not sure how old you guys are but they where around for a bit.

 

[jm31828]

Yes, OLED does not used backlighting. But that is not the complete issue, most screen technologies can suffer from PWM. That is why you see some monitors advertised as “flicker free”. Those that are not flicker free are using PWM on the backlight. This wasn’t a big problem on CRT monitors because afterglow meant the backlight never went black between pulses. It got a bit worse with LCD screens, but became more of a problem when they switched from CCFL to LED for the backlights as they switched off so rapidly.

Despite what was said in post number 1, DC dimming is the solution, but it is hard to do on OLED.

PWM sends full power to the pixel (for OLED, backlight for LCD), but turns it on and off rapidly to control the brightness. The darker it needs to be, the more time it is off, and the more likely flicker will be an issue.

DC dimming sends just the right amount of power to illuminate to the level needed. The problem is quality needs to be very high, otherwise small variations between pixels becomes noticeable when trying to show the same colour.

I was not sure if I was sensitive, have been having some minor discomfort when using my 12 mini.... so out of curiosity I did a quick slow-mo video of my 6 year old Samsung LED TV and holy cow, the flicker on that thing is TERRIBLE. I did some research and found that it flickers at roughly half of the rate that the OLED iPhones do. I figured if I was able to watch that for a couple hour per day (or more sometimes) with absolutely no issues over the years, then there is no way that the flicker on a tiny little iPhone 12 Mini phone should be bothering me.

I have gone through phases with it- surprisingly I started getting mild eye pain in my left eye when using my iPhone 11 (LCD screen) a couple weeks before I even got my Mini. I got the Mini, that did not get any worse- in fact it subsided a bit, and the only real discomfort seemed to be occasionally dry, sometimes watery eyes when using it. That seemed to get better over the first week. Since then, the mild discomfort in the left eye still sometimes happens when looking at my phone (but not my computer monitor or TV oddly)- I am not sure if it is the OLED flicker, or the sharp brightness since I have it at 50% to mitigate the worst of the flicker (though am using 80% reduce white point to keep it down a bit- but it is still looking brighter than I kept my 11).
I keep thinking maybe OLED is not right for me, but these things are very minor and again- that left eye occasional discomfort was present before I even got my Mini- so I am suspecting that is something else temporary since I seem to remember going through bouts of that a year or two ago, too- where it would happen when looking at my phone. (I had an 8+, then went to an 11- so again OLED flicker was not even involved at that time).

 

[lillo9546]

I like how you have ZERO proof yet are so confident - also I would like to see your source where 30-40% of smartphone users can not use the OLED display used in iPhones please.

It uses the same HW. That means it uses it. 30% is far from the reality. It is a pessimistic approach. I think it could be around 65%.

 

[lillo9546]

Not the iPhone LCD's- Notebook check verified that.

They have it, but the Frequency of the Modulation It is so high, that the oscilloscope didn't catch the Frequency. And it won't give you strain like strobing old