Touch Bar discussion [merged]

[cmaier]

This isn't Force Touch -- not sure why you're comparing apples to oranges.
I think it's fair to ask people to actually try it out before criticizing it so harshly.
It will absolutely be integrated into the entire Mac line as time goes on.

I think it's the first step on a long evolution. The mac "control surface" (keyboard/trackpad/touch bar) will evolve, with touch/display/Taptics gaining more real estate and prominance.

 

[terminator-jq]

You overall idea is good terminator-jq, but it only works if you combine the two. Ho many 3+ key combos are there in complex applications? Having a developer pick the 3+ key combos of THEIR choosing will not benefit the user all that much. Being able to define your own, no matter what application, would be great. But now you are attempting to basically add scripting everywhere. Given that the tool bar will take a while to see wide customer usage(is this going to appear in all apple keyboards from now on???), this is adding a lot of complexity for saving a couple keystrokes.

I'm not seeing a ton of benefit, especially when I typically see professionals seeking exact colors/timeframes/etc... rather than a rough guess like the width of a finger on a 6 inch range.

Good points. As I said before, software companies need to use the touchbar to do things that would take 3-4 or more clicks to do with a mouse. What Apple showed for Safari, Photos and Mail was not good examples. All of those things can easily be done with 1 click. The Photoshop demo was without a doubt the best use of the touchbar.

As for custom buttons, obviously I don't know much about programming on Mac OS but I don't think it would be too hard to implement custom Touchbar keys. Take a look at MagicPrefs, it lets you use gestures to imitate key combinations on the trackpad. Also look as gaming mice, most of them have side buttons that can be assigned to emulate hotkeys. I don't see why the same thing couldn't be done with the touchbar.

For example, in Maya, there are quite a few hotkeys that are built into the program that require 3-4 key combinations. Not a big deal but it sure would be nice to touch 1 button instead of 3 or 4. So in this case, you could:

Step 1: You choose what application you'd like to create custom buttons for (for this example, I would select Maya)

Step 2: Choose to "create a new button" and hold down a key combination that is recognized in the program your using (example: Command, Shift, C). The program reads what buttons your holding down and saves the combo.

Step 3: You name the button (maybe assign a color too) and choose where it should be placed.

Step 4: When you open the application that you created buttons for, the touchbar will change to show your buttons. Pressing the buttons will be the equivalent of pressing the key combinations.

Since the touch button is simply emulating a key combination, no extra work needs to be done by the software company. As you said, it may take a while for the touchbar to see wide customer usage, therefore, some software companies may decide not to include touchbar support since it will not benefit very many customers. However, with custom buttons, you could in a way add touchbar support to any application (as long as the application has hotkeys).

 

[pika2000]

It was mentioned in the keynote that one of the idea of the touch bar is to bring up features of the app that was hidden in the menus. It's akin to Microsoft's ribbon bar. The issue with the ribbon bar is that it takes up screen space. The touch bar allows the same approach outside the screen, while keeping the interface interactive.

Many people out there, including pros, are not necessarily keyboard warriors memorizing shortcuts and doing things via command lines. Personally I want the touch bar in all Macs, and even bigger. Having thumbnails and slider controls on it while I do things in Lightroom or FCPX would be more intuitive than trying to drag a slider with a mouse.

 

[sniffies]

Touch Bar is so pointless that all the new owners are making me green with envy.

 

[EnesM]

Excessive arm movement.

But it's in the same place function keys were? What are you talking about?

 

[Count Blah]

Good points. As I said before, software companies need to use the touchbar to do things that would take 3-4 or more clicks to do with a mouse. What Apple showed for Safari, Photos and Mail was not good examples. All of those things can easily be done with 1 click. The Photoshop demo was without a doubt the best use of the touchbar.

As for custom buttons ..

Since the touch button is simply emulating a key combination, no extra work needs to be done by the software company. As you said, it may take a while for the touchbar to see wide customer usage, therefore, some software companies may decide not to include touchbar support since it will not benefit very many customers. However, with custom buttons, you could in a way add touchbar support to any application (as long as the application has hotkeys).

To continue on, you then need to name the new "shortcut" and/or pick an image/icon to represent it. Now you are clicking on words or icons that may or may not have anything to do with what you just created. Then you have to integrate dynamic components(sliders, etc...) into those as well, and then it REALLY starts to get complicated.

It can be done, but it's setting up a whole new cottage shortcut industry, that will be good on what % of macs?

I'm dubious in general, but I can definitely see what you are saying, working for a small amount of the customer base.

Relying on the software manufacture to supply the 3+ button shortcuts is not my favorite idea either. So many software projects I've been on have the software developers creating the tool, and then the users create with that tool. I've lost count of the number of times that developers give that doggie 'head to the side' look, when they actually watch the end users use the software tools. The users invariably do something unique to themselves, that the developers wouldn't have thought of. I don't know, maybe my stuff is a little unique, since it's kind of open ended. But I'd imagine it's not whole dissimilar to the creative options in some graphics applications.

 

[Macalway]

If anything, this new thing is exciting, as no one has a clue how this is going to pan out.

My only concern is how much I haven't a clue. I thought I would love Siri. After that, I sort of gave up

 

[inhalexhale1]

Ergonoically, I think its questionable as you need to reach for the bar and focus your attention there.

In terms of usage, it seems novel, but I'm not sure how useful it will be if you use a mouse.

Heaven help you if you hook up your MBP to a monitor and external keyboard and if someone is doing serious photoshop work for 8 hours a day, wouldn't they be doing that on a larger monitor (and I guess external keyboard/mouse)?

True, but when working that way, any change to the laptop would be irrelevant beyond specs. Even if they made the entire trackpad a light show, you'd be on the external keyboard and mouse.

Also, for those of you hating on the touch bar; I don't know if it'll be useful. But I use Native Instruments hardware, and they hotkey the most relevant controls in whatever plugin you're on to encoders, sliders, etc., and it's very useful. Maybe the touch bar will also prove useful.

 

[maratus]

Can't wait for my rMBP with Touch Bar

Beat that!

 

[priitv8]

They should also move the dock down to that little bar.

 

[msh]

But it's in the same place function keys were? What are you talking about?

The new touch bar is designed to be used more frequently than the old function keys and thus more frequent reaching up with your arm and more fatigue.

 

[Dead0k]

I consider this as a side option instead of a touch screen.

 

[cmaier]

The new touch bar is designed to be used more frequently than the old function keys and thus more frequent reaching up with your arm and more fatigue.

I'm guessing you have small hands?

My arms don't "reach up" when I move my fingers to the function row.

 

[msh]

I'm guessing you have small hands?

My arms don't "reach up" when I move my fingers to the function row.

No, I don't have small hands. It is just more natural for me to type and reach for the F keys by lifting my arm as I don't rest my wrists on the MBP when typing.

 

[mattopotamus]

Given that Apples developer guidelines state all touch bar functions must be accessible via on screen menus and such, it's usefulness is limited to just providing a quicker way to access some of that. There won't be any unique functions that are only accessible via Touch Bar.

The only problems are:

1. For using the laptop with a monitor and external keyboard and mouse there is no usefulness.

2. For those who never look at the keyboard, doing so may actually slow you down. That is until you have muscle memory where you can use the Touch Bar without looking.

You bring up very good points. The features will be limited since they can only introduce features that all Macs can perform. Your other two points are also very important to consider. I dock at work Monday - Friday, so the touchbar functionality is immediately limited. Yet for some reason it still has be interested haha.

 

[Fernandez21]

The new touch bar is designed to be used more frequently than the old function keys and thus more frequent reaching up with your arm and more fatigue.

I think the touch bar would've been more useful if it was below the keyboard and above the touch pad, add force touch too.

 

[mattopotamus]

You overall idea is good terminator-jq, but it only works if you combine the two. How many 3+ key combos are there in complex applications? Having a developer pick the 3+ key combos of THEIR choosing will not benefit the user all that much. Being able to define your own, no matter what application, would be great. But now you are attempting to basically add scripting everywhere. Given that the tool bar will take a while to see wide customer usage(is this going to appear in all apple keyboards from now on???), this is adding a lot of complexity for saving a couple keystrokes.

I'm not seeing a ton of benefit, especially when I typically see professionals seeking exact colors/timeframes/etc... rather than a rough guess like the width of a finger on a 6 inch range.

I actually do not like the way the touchbar is app specific. Personally it would be more useful to me if I could "pin" shortcuts to it. For example, folders I use frequently. If you can do that it becomes more useful IMO. If I have to be on "fider" for the folders to appear, it makes keyboard commands and the trackpad work just as good.

 

[msh]

I think the touch bar would've been more useful if it was below the keyboard and above the touch pad, add force touch too.

Yes, that's what I think too.

 

[Koudspeel]

With the current Macbook Pro I can use the function keys without looking at them, because I can feel where the buttons are with my fingertips. Whereas the Touchbar makes me look down at the bar because I don't feel where what buttons are. This decreases my productivity by just that bit.

As some other posters have mentioned: the Touchbar mainly replaces key combinations which otherwise can be easily memorized. I think this Touchbar is just a gimmick and doesn't perform well in realworld usage.

 

[maratus]

With the current Macbook Pro I can use the function keys without looking at them, because I can feel where the buttons are with my fingertips. Whereas the Touchbar makes me look down at the bar because I don't feel where what buttons are. This decreases my productivity by just that bit.

As some other posters have mentioned: the Touchbar mainly replaces key combinations which otherwise can be easily memorized. I think this Touchbar is just a gimmick and doesn't perform well in realworld usage.

or you can just wait and actually try it before coming up with verdicts. You know, Internet is already full of opinions of people who have no clue

 

[mattopotamus]

or you can just wait and actually try it before coming up with verdicts. You know, Internet is already full of opinions of people who have no clue

I think it is pretty fair to assume you will need to look down, especially with the touch display changing based on the app you are in.

 

[protoxx]

Wait and see if Apple thinks the touchbar is valuable. If it doesn't become available for desktops (Pro, iMac, mini) they probably don't think it adds much value.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Can't wait for my rMBP with Touch Bar

Beat that!

Nothing can beat a good old Norton Commander running on a 2016 Macintosh.

 

[maratus]

I think it is pretty fair to assume you will need to look down, especially with the touch display changing based on the app you are in.

Honestly, I still look at the keyboard when using F-buttons because it's already too far away for consistent blind typing (and I don't use it as often to get used to).

It ultimately depends on implementation in every specific application you're interested in. For example, in Final Cut it provides you a quick video timeline scroll on most of its area and you may not required to look at it. Peripheral vision could be enough to know where to put your finger once you're familiar with the particular implementation. Same applies to rotating images or scrolling through your library in photo-editing software.

But I agree that there's a risk of regular adjustments like screen brightness or volume becoming less convenient. We have to wait and test it out ourselves.

 

[geachy92]

They should also move the dock down to that little bar.

Personally I prefer to press CMD + shift + D (I think this is the shortcut) It hides the dock and makes it accessible just by putting the cursor to the bottom/side of your screen (where you prefer to keep your dock).
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I'm already hate that you can't use an external monitor as a sole dedicated display. When I'm docked at home I always lose the pointer off the side of the screen and onto the dark, unused laptop screen. Windows does this much better.

Can you not? I regularly use my monitor as the sole screen. The laptop has to be closed and plugged in to power, but then it can power the display alone without losing the mouse.