Very sad: Ventura is a steaming hot mess of 💩

[chevyboy60013]

I must be one of the odd ones then. absolutely no issues with Ventura, and have to say it is very enjoyable to use.

 

[orionquest]

I've been using the same system of updating since OS 9. I only update to the current system the week before the newest system is released. That way you get an OS with all the bugs worked out. I refuse to be a Beta tester.

I do something similar, also 1 full release behind (whenever I get to it).
Less patches, and whatever bugs are left you just deal with it.
Sometimes I just skip a bunch of updates. I'm still on Mojave currently, been one of the best releases. But need to make a decision to update to something because of some newer software requirements.
It won't be Ventura though, I'll put that on a test volume to check out.

 

[Chozun]

I've been using the same system of updating since OS 9. I only update to the current system the week before the newest system is released. That way you get an OS with all the bugs worked out. I refuse to be a Beta tester.

I don't go quite that far, but am as careful as you. I have yet to test Ventura at all, and in fact I am waiting until OS 13.1 is released before I test everything via an external SSD. As it is, just about all the applications I use are finally compatible with Ventura (save for a couple of them, but maybe they are OK anyway).

And like you, I never run any tests with the beta versions (even ones between actual OS releases).

 

[yellowhelicopter]

USB backups don't boot so the recovery process is HORRIFIC now for Apple. Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple.

They do boot, like they did on Monterey. I've made 2 bootable USB drives: M2 in enclosure and old 2"5 HDD in enclosure. Albeit I had to connect to USB-A port to install without problems, but after that they boot via USB-C just fine (the same story was with these drives on Monterey).

 

[darngooddesign]

Well folks, just wanted to relate some experiences I've had in my small foray into Ventura and am done with this iteration of the OS it appears. A few major halting / critical points on an M1 Max system (also, just to be clear, I'm not a novice user - I've been a goto guy that has helped Apple "Geniuses" over the years when they can't figure things out) :

1. Be aware that the upgrade can seriously fail. I tried both 13.0 and 13.1 beta. The system, while performing an upgrade, had an infinite Apple logo reboot loop that went into recovery mode after several reboot attempts. I went through several troubleshooting steps that I won't document here. USB backups don't boot so the recovery process is HORRIFIC now for Apple. Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple. I do not trust Apple whatsoever anymore, even though their brand of OS is still the lesser of the proverbial "poisons" yet still (not a compliment, just an observation).
2. Installed from scratch, but restore of previous system settings failed for some various obscure/unclear reasons. This situation descended into chaos when I found that the Recovery tool no longer worked and no associated tools work. This mode also incorrectly detected my system volume as being encrypted and no usernames or passwords that are system admins/owners would actually authenticate with the actually correct password. Things are seriously broken when they break with the recovery situation.
3. My Time Machine backup did not work properly. It was detected and all seemed well with it, but the system, again, for some obscure and non-clear reason, failed to use it. I had to use a secondary backup made with Super Duper, BUT that was a ridiculous process. It took 30 hours to restore the 7tb+ of data.
4. APFS Snapshots are a steaming mess. Apple is not using APFS snapshots properly / appropriately; I could not rollback on the upgrade system to to Monterey. This is an enormous problem and oversight / missed opportunity by Apple and is truly baffling. I've had some people who know the internal goings on at Apple express extreme frustration for not only the missed opportunity with ZFS, but now the problems of APFS not being used properly. A truly incredible situation.
5. When I played with the fresh install I found that some things were really screwed up. For example:
   • Stage Manager is trash for anyone with more than one display. The only useful way to use macOS is still with extended displays and WITHOUT separate Spaces for each display. Apple does not allow Stage Manager to even work with the extended displays situation and frankly Stage Manager simply has little to no value even if you intend to use it for focused mode when you require any other monitors.
   • The new system Settings is enormously impotent and foreign. They really didn't think this through fully and are missing a lot of functionality. They should have, at the very least, provided BOTH methods of configuration since the new Settings app also feels enormously disorganized and even searching for features is not immediately fruitful. It's simply not ready for primetime usage - not to mention that it just doesn't fit UX parameters for non-iPhone/iPad usage.
   • An Asus monitor that works perfectly on Monterey and is identical to a second monitor on the system does not allow for recognition of full resolution at the correct refresh rate when used with a DisplayPort adapter. HDMI works, but then macOS continues to have the monitor schizophrenia problem where it can't determine which monitor is which when they have the same model number (no fault of Apple per se), but the resolution + refresh situation IS faultable to Apple.

I could go on about various other points and problems, but I just don't have any more time and my frustration level is over 9,000.

Full recovery to Monterey was a painful process. Due to some fashion in which Ventura screwed up the recovery partition and so forth, reinstallation required erasure of the ENTIRE drive, network access (sadly I had to authenticate my machine with Apple, which is ridiculous and scary in and of itself and should not be required), and then downloading of Monterey again... Plus a 30 hour Migration step.

I will not be moving this machine to Ventura and Apple has very much dropped a significant level in terms of trust for our company. We have several Apple Silicon machines now that we are worried about in terms of the future and Apple's clear inability to make good decisions and lacking of actual quality assurance processes.

To boot, their Feedback / RADAR system has been very poor over the last couple years too. Apple's support/engineering department has been abysmal in responding to many and various reports. Someone needs to pull them out of the swirling toilet basin desperately before they are simply no different than Microsoft.

Sorry you had those problems. Ventura upgraded with zero issues for me, and just keeps working without any problems.

16” M1-Pro MBP

 

[ssmed]

I do something similar, also 1 full release behind (whenever I get to it).
Less patches, and whatever bugs are left you just deal with it.
Sometimes I just skip a bunch of updates. I'm still on Mojave currently, been one of the best releases. But need to make a decision to update to something because of some newer software requirements.
It won't be Ventura though, I'll put that on a test volume to check out.

Apple recently reported that they did not provide security patches evenly across the range of supported OSs, with newer iterations getting the most support. However I am generally in agreement with your plan, but in providing computers to a workforce, you are pretty much forced to use the latest and 'greatest' and that can be very testing.

 

[stinkhorn9]

I do something similar, also 1 full release behind (whenever I get to it).
Less patches, and whatever bugs are left you just deal with it.
Sometimes I just skip a bunch of updates. I'm still on Mojave currently, been one of the best releases. But need to make a decision to update to something because of some newer software requirements.
It won't be Ventura though, I'll put that on a test volume to check out.

Me: Big Sur and Snow Leapoard, currently.

 

[Project Alice]

I haven't any experience with Ventura yet. My newest Mac is a Mac Pro 5,1 running Monterey, and that has been pretty painless to use. I also keep Mojave on it but I've found myself using Monterey on it more and more. It also runs Windows 11 but that's for games.

I just wanted to chime in to say I am mostly in agreement here with Apple being on the decline in terms of quality. It sucks to hear what OP has said about the leadership problems, but I am honestly not surprised. The yearly releases I think are a big problem, but the leadership is an even bigger one.

-Posted from a PowerBook G3 Pismo (with a G4) running Leopard. I wonder if the Apple silicon Macs will last this long...

 

[jgbr]

In SJ's words "the worlds most advanced operating system." I think it's looking more and more childish and dumbed down.

I dont agree with the Microsoft hate. Windows and its products have strengths and weaknesses like any other.

The question remains what did they get right with certain OS X releases...and how can it be replicated without stifling innovation? At a baseline, releasing an OS every bloody year isn't necessary. I think even iOS is getting a bit short on changes for yearly releases. They are clearly dragging things out.

 

[LOVEZZ]

Well folks, just wanted to relate some experiences I've had in my small foray into Ventura and am done with this iteration of the OS it appears. A few major halting / critical points on an M1 Max system (also, just to be clear, I'm not a novice user - I've been a goto guy that has helped Apple "Geniuses" over the years when they can't figure things out) :

1. Be aware that the upgrade can seriously fail. I tried both 13.0 and 13.1 beta. The system, while performing an upgrade, had an infinite Apple logo reboot loop that went into recovery mode after several reboot attempts. I went through several troubleshooting steps that I won't document here. USB backups don't boot so the recovery process is HORRIFIC now for Apple. Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple. I do not trust Apple whatsoever anymore, even though their brand of OS is still the lesser of the proverbial "poisons" yet still (not a compliment, just an observation).
2. Installed from scratch, but restore of previous system settings failed for some various obscure/unclear reasons. This situation descended into chaos when I found that the Recovery tool no longer worked and no associated tools work. This mode also incorrectly detected my system volume as being encrypted and no usernames or passwords that are system admins/owners would actually authenticate with the actually correct password. Things are seriously broken when they break with the recovery situation.
3. My Time Machine backup did not work properly. It was detected and all seemed well with it, but the system, again, for some obscure and non-clear reason, failed to use it. I had to use a secondary backup made with Super Duper, BUT that was a ridiculous process. It took 30 hours to restore the 7tb+ of data.
4. APFS Snapshots are a steaming mess. Apple is not using APFS snapshots properly / appropriately; I could not rollback on the upgrade system to to Monterey. This is an enormous problem and oversight / missed opportunity by Apple and is truly baffling. I've had some people who know the internal goings on at Apple express extreme frustration for not only the missed opportunity with ZFS, but now the problems of APFS not being used properly. A truly incredible situation.
5. When I played with the fresh install I found that some things were really screwed up. For example:
   • Stage Manager is trash for anyone with more than one display. The only useful way to use macOS is still with extended displays and WITHOUT separate Spaces for each display. Apple does not allow Stage Manager to even work with the extended displays situation and frankly Stage Manager simply has little to no value even if you intend to use it for focused mode when you require any other monitors.
   • The new system Settings is enormously impotent and foreign. They really didn't think this through fully and are missing a lot of functionality. They should have, at the very least, provided BOTH methods of configuration since the new Settings app also feels enormously disorganized and even searching for features is not immediately fruitful. It's simply not ready for primetime usage - not to mention that it just doesn't fit UX parameters for non-iPhone/iPad usage.
   • An Asus monitor that works perfectly on Monterey and is identical to a second monitor on the system does not allow for recognition of full resolution at the correct refresh rate when used with a DisplayPort adapter. HDMI works, but then macOS continues to have the monitor schizophrenia problem where it can't determine which monitor is which when they have the same model number (no fault of Apple per se), but the resolution + refresh situation IS faultable to Apple.

I could go on about various other points and problems, but I just don't have any more time and my frustration level is over 9,000.

Full recovery to Monterey was a painful process. Due to some fashion in which Ventura screwed up the recovery partition and so forth, reinstallation required erasure of the ENTIRE drive, network access (sadly I had to authenticate my machine with Apple, which is ridiculous and scary in and of itself and should not be required), and then downloading of Monterey again... Plus a 30 hour Migration step.

I will not be moving this machine to Ventura and Apple has very much dropped a significant level in terms of trust for our company. We have several Apple Silicon machines now that we are worried about in terms of the future and Apple's clear inability to make good decisions and lacking of actual quality assurance processes.

To boot, their Feedback / RADAR system has been very poor over the last couple years too. Apple's support/engineering department has been abysmal in responding to many and various reports. Someone needs to pull them out of the swirling toilet basin desperately before they are simply no different than Microsoft.

I’m thinking of going back to Monterey, can you explain more, please, what troubles will be there?

 

[v1ctorS]

I installed it yesterday on my family's late 2017 MacBook Pro and was surprised how good the new UI looks and how smooth it ran, so nothing to complain here.

 

[LOVEZZ]

Sorry you had those problems. Ventura upgraded with zero issues for me, and just keeps working without any problems.

16” M1-Pro MBP

Try if USB SSDs are working with moving big folders with a lot of files like 10 GB or so. And then try to delete anything big from external drives. You will be surprised.

 

[LOVEZZ]

I do not have issues like this. In fact, Ventura works well for me, including Stage Manager. Suggest you go back to Monterey, or even to "Ctrl-Alt-Delete" Windows! Any MacOS is better than that!

Try if USB SSDs are working with moving big folders with a lot of files like 10 GB or so. And then try to delete anything big from external drives. You will be surprised. But I would agree with you about Windows.

 

[LOVEZZ]

I installed it yesterday on my family's late 2017 MacBook Pro and was surprised how good the new UI looks and how smooth it ran, so nothing to complain here.

Try if USB SSDs are working with moving big folders with a lot of files like 10 GB or so. And then try to delete anything big from external drives. You will be surprised.

 

[Lihp8270]

I'm sorry @ssmed, but I also work on Windows systems daily and maintain some rather large installation bases. I have to say that this is not my experience. I cannot AT ALL trust Microsoft Windows 10 or 11. They blow up regularly and are entirely unreliable. We simply have no reasonable options in relation to Microsoft being possible to move to.

Apple needs to step back and get to its roots. Their leadership has been just garbage for the past decade now - total garbage. I have heard horror stories of CoreOS (kernel) devs that wander the hallways aimlessly due to lack of direction and focus in the kernel and core areas of the OS. Internally folks at Apple are not even happy with Apple leadership, but they can't say anything publicly of course. It's very sad. They get paid enough to just suck it up and realize that macOS is completely lacking and simply getting no real proper attention compared to iOS/iPadOS (which again are just investor motivated).

I think this is user error. Or a fundamental issue in provisioning and/or processes of the company you work for.

Plenty of companies around the globe operate on Windows with tens of thousands of devices without serious issue. Similarly, plenty operate with Apple devices too.

I find it odd that you are having reliability with both Windows and MacOS. There is a common denominator between these issues.

 

[v1ctorS]

Try if USB SSDs are working with moving big folders with a lot of files like 10 GB or so. And then try to delete anything big from external drives. You will be surprised.

I have no need for that. Besides, the point was to illustrate how well the OS runs considering the device I installed it on is 5 years old.

 

[H_D]

Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple.

Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple.

Amen to that. I miss the old super easy clone-it-all-method of setting up a new system. Also slept much better knowing that any machine in the office could be booted from CCC-backups if push came to shove. Replacing this with DFU and migration is less safe and eats valuable time.


I have not had quite the same troubles with Ventura, the betas all ran very smoothly. Installing the identical final version which was offered as an update after removing the beta profile over the RC version however fritzed the system, all apps crashed after a short while, safari as soon as you clicked your first link, Setapp did not start, Creative Cloud did not run… I have re-installed & will have to see if that helped.

But yes, iOS 16 & Ventura had a very very rocky start.

 

[wilsonlaidlaw]

It should be obligatory for all Mac OS coders before they start at Apple, to have: "If it ain't broke; don't fix it!" tattooed on their forehead (in mirror writing of course) so every time they look at a shiny screen they will be reminded. The new layout/format of System Preferences in Ventura, is a total Pig's ear. It takes at least twice as long to find the function you need. I presume the coders, and their managers, change things all the time, that don't need changing, in an effort to justify the eye-watering amounts they are paid.

 

[MajorFubar]

Considering one of the benefits of Macs is supposed to be that Apple know all the hardware their OS's will be running on (discounting Dosdude etc patches and Hackintoshes) I don't understand why your experience of updating your M1 Max system was different to someone else's experience of updating their M1 Max system without issue. Clearly I'm not questioning the validity of your experience, I just can't understand why it's not the same for everyone. In the Windows world it's kind of explainable when you look at the multitude of possible hardware-permutations. But mostly not with Macs, and definitely not with current Macs.

You've not told us exactly what Mac you've got, but having told us it's M1 Max, you've either got a 14" or 16" MBP or a Studio Max like me, so one of three computers. It shouldn't be hard for Apple to deliver the same upgrading experience to all M1 Max users when they only have to juggle three variables.

 

[Queen6]

Well folks, just wanted to relate some experiences I've had in my small foray into Ventura and am done with this iteration of the OS it appears. A few major halting / critical points on an M1 Max system (also, just to be clear, I'm not a novice user - I've been a goto guy that has helped Apple "Geniuses" over the years when they can't figure things out) :

1. Be aware that the upgrade can seriously fail. I tried both 13.0 and 13.1 beta. The system, while performing an upgrade, had an infinite Apple logo reboot loop that went into recovery mode after several reboot attempts. I went through several troubleshooting steps that I won't document here. USB backups don't boot so the recovery process is HORRIFIC now for Apple. Removing the ability to boot to USB drives is a nightmare level mistake by Apple. I do not trust Apple whatsoever anymore, even though their brand of OS is still the lesser of the proverbial "poisons" yet still (not a compliment, just an observation).
2. Installed from scratch, but restore of previous system settings failed for some various obscure/unclear reasons. This situation descended into chaos when I found that the Recovery tool no longer worked and no associated tools work. This mode also incorrectly detected my system volume as being encrypted and no usernames or passwords that are system admins/owners would actually authenticate with the actually correct password. Things are seriously broken when they break with the recovery situation.
3. My Time Machine backup did not work properly. It was detected and all seemed well with it, but the system, again, for some obscure and non-clear reason, failed to use it. I had to use a secondary backup made with Super Duper, BUT that was a ridiculous process. It took 30 hours to restore the 7tb+ of data.
4. APFS Snapshots are a steaming mess. Apple is not using APFS snapshots properly / appropriately; I could not rollback on the upgrade system to to Monterey. This is an enormous problem and oversight / missed opportunity by Apple and is truly baffling. I've had some people who know the internal goings on at Apple express extreme frustration for not only the missed opportunity with ZFS, but now the problems of APFS not being used properly. A truly incredible situation.
5. When I played with the fresh install I found that some things were really screwed up. For example:
   • Stage Manager is trash for anyone with more than one display. The only useful way to use macOS is still with extended displays and WITHOUT separate Spaces for each display. Apple does not allow Stage Manager to even work with the extended displays situation and frankly Stage Manager simply has little to no value even if you intend to use it for focused mode when you require any other monitors.
   • The new system Settings is enormously impotent and foreign. They really didn't think this through fully and are missing a lot of functionality. They should have, at the very least, provided BOTH methods of configuration since the new Settings app also feels enormously disorganized and even searching for features is not immediately fruitful. It's simply not ready for primetime usage - not to mention that it just doesn't fit UX parameters for non-iPhone/iPad usage.
   • An Asus monitor that works perfectly on Monterey and is identical to a second monitor on the system does not allow for recognition of full resolution at the correct refresh rate when used with a DisplayPort adapter. HDMI works, but then macOS continues to have the monitor schizophrenia problem where it can't determine which monitor is which when they have the same model number (no fault of Apple per se), but the resolution + refresh situation IS faultable to Apple.

I could go on about various other points and problems, but I just don't have any more time and my frustration level is over 9,000.

Full recovery to Monterey was a painful process. Due to some fashion in which Ventura screwed up the recovery partition and so forth, reinstallation required erasure of the ENTIRE drive, network access (sadly I had to authenticate my machine with Apple, which is ridiculous and scary in and of itself and should not be required), and then downloading of Monterey again... Plus a 30 hour Migration step.

I will not be moving this machine to Ventura and Apple has very much dropped a significant level in terms of trust for our company. We have several Apple Silicon machines now that we are worried about in terms of the future and Apple's clear inability to make good decisions and lacking of actual quality assurance processes.

To boot, their Feedback / RADAR system has been very poor over the last couple years too. Apple's support/engineering department has been abysmal in responding to many and various reports. Someone needs to pull them out of the swirling toilet basin desperately before they are simply no different than Microsoft.

I'll give you the advice a friend did many years ago; With Apple better stay one OS behind, you still get a new OS without all the issues and drama...

FWIW I only updated to Monterey very recently, Ventura I won't remotely consider until it's close to final release.

Q-6

 

[CasualFanboy]

I'll give you the advice a friend did many years ago; With Apple better stay one OS behind, you still get a new OS without all the issues and drama...

FWIW I only updated to Monterey very recently, Ventura I won't remotely consider until it's close to final release.

Q-6

So far I have seen only features I don't like - the new system settings - and plenty of features that mean nothing to me. I may stay 2 releases behind just to put off the changes as long as possible.

The evolution of OSX since ~ 2015 is about the best demonstration of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" that I've ever seen.

 

[darngooddesign]

Try if USB SSDs are working with moving big folders with a lot of files like 10 GB or so. And then try to delete anything big from external drives. You will be surprised.

I did a regular upgrade to Ventura, no need to restore.

Time Machine backup-to-USB platter drive works.

I copied a 44GB+ folder of camera Raw files (2800 files, ~40MB each, 12 sub-folders -- I don't have folders with a lot of 10GB+ files in them) from USB SSD to my computer; compressed the folder on my computer; copied the folder and ZIP back to the USB SSD; compressed the folder on the SSD; and deleted them (one big folder and two big 43GB ZIPs) from the SSD.

No surprises and no problems.

Ventura may be a pile for your use-case, but it's working well for me.

 

[LOVEZZ]

I did a regular upgrade to Ventura, no need to restore.

Time Machine backup-to-USB platter drive works.

I copied a 44GB+ folder of camera Raw files (2800 files, ~40MB each, 12 sub-folders -- I don't have folders with a lot of 10GB+ files in them) from USB SSD to my computer; compressed the folder on my computer; copied the folder and ZIP back to the USB SSD; compressed the folder on the SSD; and deleted them (one big folder and two big 43GB ZIPs) from the SSD.

No surprises and no problems.

Ventura may be a pile for your use-case, but it's working well for me.

It was ok when uncompressed too? And what is the file format of SSD?

 

[darngooddesign]

It was ok when uncompressed too?

Yep.

1. Copy 44GB folder from Mac to SSD
2. Copy compressed 43GB ZIP from Mac to SSD
3. Compress folder on SSD
4. Copy 44GB folder and two 43GB ZIPs from SSD to Mac.
5. Delete 44GB folder and two 43GB ZIPs on SSD.

All worked without issues.

Its an older, but good thick cable which is even connected on the Mac side with a USB-A to USB-C adapter.

 

[LOVEZZ]

Yep.

1. Copy 44GB folder from Mac to SSD
2. Copy compressed 43GB ZIP from Mac to SSD
3. Compress folder on SSD
4. Copy 44GB folder and two 43GB ZIPs from SSD to Mac.
5. Delete 44GB folder and two 43GB ZIPs on SSD.

All worked without issues.

Cable is even connected on the Mac side with a USB-A to USB-C adapter.

And what is SSD’s file format system?