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m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,345
1,252
If you understand computing you'll realise that all the major OS's from linux to Mac OS and Windows have strengths and weaknesses. Microsoft makes some very good software and hardware products. Linux has some fantastic OS/S but-prey-why is it not more widely used....as I said, strengths and weaknesses, cast studies and usage studies.
It's my opinion it's not as polished nor does it have the needed third-party developer support.

IMO a lot of open-source software does not have a polished UI despite it being useable. I use Thunderbird on my Windows system and I find its UI lacking in intuitiveness, at least what I think should be intuitive.

The lack of third-party developer support is, IMO, the result of too many distributions available. I guess the developers could choose a few of the larger distributions (i.e. Red hat and Ubuntu for example) and make their software available. But, relatively speaking, those would be small market share.

I am an Ubuntu users (I use it for my virtual machine hosting platform) but I couldn't see myself using it day in and day out like I do my Windows or Mac systems.
 
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Heat_Fan89

macrumors 68030
Feb 23, 2016
2,783
3,620
I stopped reading right here. Using such a term tells me what's to follow will be lacking in maturity and facts.
Yeah, his rant is so 1990's. Windows is a rock solid OS that is very stable. Heck I only reboot the PC when it installs an update and requires a reboot. I use it as my gaming platform of choice. I install and uninstall games and other stuff quite frequently and the PC just works as well and fast as it did 2 years ago. When it comes down to OS's it really boils down to preference but to call it Winblows just shows the individual has already made up their minds. It would be akin to me calling macOS a Fischer Price toy operating system that has been locked and dumbed down for its users. Neither is true.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,097
14,540
New Hampshire
It's my opinion it's not as polished nor does it have the needed third-party developer support.

IMO a lot of open-source software does not have a polished UI despite it being useable. I use Thunderbird on my Windows system and I find its UI lacking in intuitiveness, at least what I think should be intuitive.

The lack of third-party developer support is, IMO, the result of too many distributions available. I guess the developers could choose a few of the larger distributions (i.e. Red hat and Ubuntu for example) and make their software available. But, relatively speaking, those would be small market share.

I am an Ubuntu users (I use it for my virtual machine hosting platform) but I couldn't see myself using it day in and day out like I do my Windows or Mac systems.

Thunderbird was a poor stepchild in funding compared to Firefox and it's no surprise that it's lagged far behind in development compared to commercial alternatives. It was spun off and it did get some funding from corporations like Oracle but it doesn't have the user base nor developer interest that Firefox and some other projects have.

I use Thunderbird to archive my emails and it is fine for that but I prefer Apple Mail as the UI for regular use. One of the reasons I use macOS is because of the Mail app.
 
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Chozun

Suspended
Nov 1, 2022
124
41
Thunderbird was a poor stepchild in funding compared to Firefox and it's no surprise that it's lagged far behind in development compared to commercial alternatives. It was spun off and it did get some funding from corporations like Oracle but it doesn't have the user base nor developer interest that Firefox and some other projects have.

I use Thunderbird to archive my emails and it is fine for that but I prefer Apple Mail as the UI for regular use. One of the reasons I use macOS is because of the Mail app.
I have never used Apple's Mail program, as I have previously read about quite a few folks having issues with it. I did use Outlook for about 5 years, but it did give me a serious issue when I last used it. So, I switched to Thunderbird about 3 (or so) years ago, and while it is not as "sexy" looking as most other EMail programs, it just works, and that is all I require.
 

Chozun

Suspended
Nov 1, 2022
124
41
I installed Ventura on my 2021 MacBook Pro when it was released and I had no problems with it. I installed it on my M1 Max Studio and my M1 mini last night and have had no problems either. The Studio is new and I am in the process of migrating things off of the M1 mini to it but this has been the smoothest new release of macOS for me since Mojave.

Monterey was a nightmare for me with the memory leaks, external monitor issues, and network issues.

I completely understand that some users see some bugs and other users see other bugs, but, I have not been happy with the immediate releases of Catalina, Big Sur or Monterey but I am fine with Ventura. I have, in the past, stayed on old releases for years but I've done a wholesale move to Apple Silicon and that's obviously not an option.

I find Big Sur to be stable now. I am running it on my 2014 iMac which I am preparing to sell. That may be an option for those with 2020 Macs and earlier. I find that Monterey is about 95% stable. It is good enough for my production but I still have to reboot my systems periodically due to a networking issue. I have not run into the issue in Ventura but it can take up to two weeks to show up.
I have never encountered issues when I make a final move to a new version of the Mac OS. Two reasons why are 1) I make sure all the applications I use are compatible with the new OS, and 2) I wait until at least the .2 or .3 release arrives, as earlier releases tend to have issues. For Monterey, I actually had to wait until the .4 release was available.

For Ventura, I plan on downloading V13.1 when it is released, install it (and my apps) on an external SSD, and doing testing. The new SSD arrives tomorrow, and except for TechTool Pro and LibreOffice, all my other software is compatible. So just waiting for OS 13.1 to arrive. (I actually expect LibreOffice to work, but not sure about TechTool Pro). My biggest "concern" is SuperDuper!. I have used the latest version (V3.7) with Monterey with no issues, but have yet to see anything definitive about SD with Ventura.

Update: just looked at the site https://roaringapps.com/apps, and it looks like TechTool Pro is compatible with Ventura.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,097
14,540
New Hampshire
I have never encountered issues when I make a final move to a new version of the Mac OS. Two reasons why are 1) I make sure all the applications I use are compatible with the new OS, and 2) I wait until at least the .2 or .3 release arrives, as earlier releases tend to have issues. For Monterey, I actually had to wait until the .4 release was available.

For Ventura, I plan on downloading V13.1 when it is released, install it (and my apps) on an external SSD, and doing testing. The new SSD arrives tomorrow, and except for TechTool Pro and LibreOffice, all my other software is compatible. So just waiting for OS 13.1 to arrive. (I actually expect LibreOffice to work, but not sure about TechTool Pro). My biggest "concern" is SuperDuper!. I have used the latest version (V3.7) with Monterey with no issues, but have yet to see anything definitive about SD with Ventura.

I didn't have a choice as it came with my 2021 MacBook Pro 16. I stayed on Big Sur on my M1 mini though.

I have a lot of Macs and I can just use another one with an older operating system if needed or just downgrade. My setup is very easy to move from one system to another if there's a problem. That said I've found Ventura to be far more stable on launch than Monterey. I skipped Catalina and Big Sur unless I had no choice.
 

Chozun

Suspended
Nov 1, 2022
124
41
I didn't have a choice as it came with my 2021 MacBook Pro 16. I stayed on Big Sur on my M1 mini though.

I have a lot of Macs and I can just use another one with an older operating system if needed or just downgrade. My setup is very easy to move from one system to another if there's a problem. That said I've found Ventura to be far more stable on launch than Monterey. I skipped Catalina and Big Sur unless I had no choice.
Like you, I have more than one Mac: a 2020 M1 Mac Mini, and a 2021 M1 MacBook Air. Whenever I've tested a new version of the OS, I have always used my Mac Mini for that, and that scenario works well with me. As it is, I have all the same third party software on both machines, and I always make the effort to keep all such software up to date on both machines. When I am satisfied with he testing via the Mini, I then "move" to the new OS on both machines. Doing that has always worked well for me.

The other important consideration is that I have never needed to move to the very first version of the new OS, as there is (typically) nothing I "desperately" need via the new version. And of course Apple keeps supporting the latter version of the OS (and some more older ones) for a good time (like they are doing/will do with Monterey).
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,097
14,540
New Hampshire
I’d be happy to bet. That there’s a couple of things you use everyday that are from Microsoft.

It's hard to avoid Microsoft products in modern life.

Your water, gas or electric utility may be using their software.

There are lots of phone apps that use Azure for cloud services.

Windows is embedded in all kinds of systems and things that services we use depend on.

Your vendors may well use Windows for accounting systems.

Most of the top trading programs run on Windows first and other operating systems last if at all.

I'd guess that every single Fortune 500 company is running Microsoft products somewhere.
 

tmoerel

Suspended
Jan 24, 2008
1,005
1,569
It's hard to avoid Microsoft products in modern life.

Your water, gas or electric utility may be using their software.

There are lots of phone apps that use Azure for cloud services.

Windows is embedded in all kinds of systems and things that services we use depend on.

Your vendors may well use Windows for accounting systems.

Most of the top trading programs run on Windows first and other operating systems last if at all.

I'd guess that every single Fortune 500 company is running Microsoft products somewhere.
That is not my problem. I choose not to suffer Microsoft!
 
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eldho

macrumors regular
Aug 16, 2011
186
101
@casperes1996 I should qualify: the drives do show up, but neither of the drives I generated (one from Super Duper and one from ChronoSync) would actually boot. These are APFS platter/rotary drives, but traditionally even though they're slow, they have always worked out on all Intel Macs. I'm just making the foray into Apple Silicon and have bought a few now... and of course this gives me serious pause and regret. The "ancient" Mac Pros still work and offer a solid backup, but this experience with Ventura has taken an already bad taste in my mouth and amplified it considerably in terms of Apple's increasingly poor choices for people who expect robust flexibility of their hardware.

I will have to test this out further with various configs and tools, but I'm not hopeful and - frankly - I'm pretty much at a 100% sureness level that I'm going to just pause the update process until, at least, macOS 14. I have to believe there will be enough kickback from the community that Apple will have no choice but to revise their approach and fortify the situation before going further into their hardcore-mobile mode.
APFS is actually primarily designed to work with SSDs. I briefly used APFS on a spinning disk and was alarmed at how much grinding away that it did. I recall somewhere that Apple advised to use the older file system on a spinning disk. This is from quite some time ago and so may not be current. I now use all SSD with APFS and have had no problem with Ventura at all.

So I would not be at all surprised if your underlying issue is actually your spinning disks not handling APFS adequately. APFS might actually be causing your spinning disks to be having faults due to the complexity of how it works with them.
 

Matty_TypeR

macrumors 6502a
Oct 1, 2016
641
555
UK
Microsoft Win 11 is a good OS and defending it i am not, it works and is very nippy. The problem with OSX is its no longer just for intel mac's its also for M chip Mac's thats why its so big at over 12g Half of the code if intel you don't even use, same for M chip mac's.

As apple move from intel to M chip the whole OSX will be designed around M chip mac's Apple will only support Intel for a short period before dropping intel based Mac's completely from is New OSX versions.

Like all Mac OSX versions as soon as your hardware is to old the OSX updates cease along with security fix's this is why you get a New OSX every year to eliminate older hardware from updates kind of pushing you to buy new hardware.

The patches to run newer Mac OSX versions will also cease once Apple go M chip OSX only. All intel based Mac's will cease updates and the ability to patch to newer OSX version's that only support M chip based Mac's.

The writing is on the wall for intel based Mac's for sure, but unless M chip mac's offer upgrades for memory and GFX card i shall move away from Mac based Hardware in the future as i dont see M based Mac's being updatable. your only option will be a new machine in the future. Sorry Apple thats just not for me.
 

orionquest

Suspended
Mar 16, 2022
871
790
The Great White North
Ever since Winblows Vista, Microsoft has been a hot mess. Security holes the size you could fit a cargo ship thru, basically forced to use a security suite, updates that constantly break, constant slowness, forced updates to newer versions that are not finished when released, horrible ui, I can go on but I think it should be obvious which hardware and OS is far superior. APPLE RULES.
Window 7 was one of the best OS releases, windows 10 matured very well, even if out of the gate is stumbled.
Your comments sound very fanboyish, and everything you stated could be applied to Apple's OS's which have generally been bug ridden for almost every release.
 
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Defever

macrumors member
Mar 16, 2022
30
3
Contrary to what the OP said, I can confirm that Ventura works well on external Samsung T7 SSDs connected to my Mac Studio. The only thing I had to do was using the USB-A cable to install the system, afterwards I could use USB-C.
 

romanof

macrumors 6502
Jun 13, 2020
342
372
Texas
I stopped reading right here. Using such a term tells me what's to follow will be lacking maturity and facts.
Actually, I can agree with chevboy, but in a wider sense. All three OS's are a mess. Linux/Unix a little, MacOS a little more, but with Redmond products leading the pack and lapping the field.

But...

I come (and way, way back) from the mainframe side of the business, and from DOS days on, the idea that a system will have to be rebooted to fix a problem, or even to get the cursor back was nuts. Heck, if you remember WINNT 4.0, sometimes a complete reload of the system was faster than trying to figure out the problem. My thoughts in those days was that a computer should boot up and stay up until some MAJOR change is needed, either to software or hardware, whether next month or two years from now. Nowadays, it should stay up and running even with a hardware failure.

I have used all three OS's extensively in my life, but this week I have to say that with Ventura, Apple is gaining on Microsoft. What a mess, and even on my vanilla setup.
 
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m1maverick

macrumors 65816
Nov 22, 2020
1,345
1,252
Actually, I can agree with chevboy, but in a wider sense. All three OS's are a mess. Linux/Unix a little, MacOS a little more, but with Redmond products leading the pack and lapping the field.

Sorry but he has no credibility by using the word "Winblows". To use such a word tells me the individual lacks the maturity to provide a rational argument. If he has issues with Windows then he should, as requested, state what they are without hyperbole ("blowing up" and "severe mass destruction").

Windows isn't without its issues but I use it almost every single day without issue. In fact I can't recall the last time I had an issue with it.

But...

I come (and way, way back) from the mainframe side of the business, and from DOS days on, the idea that a system will have to be rebooted to fix a problem, or even to get the cursor back was nuts. Heck, if you remember WINNT 4.0, sometimes a complete reload of the system was faster than trying to figure out the problem. My thoughts in those days was that a computer should boot up and stay up until some MAJOR change is needed, either to software or hardware, whether next month or two years from now. Nowadays, it should stay up and running even with a hardware failure.

Mainframes are multi-million dollar systems which, at least at the time, had considerably more resources (processing power, memory, disk, etc.) then a garden variety PC. DOS's origins are for hardware with drastically lower computing power. Thus Seattle Computer Products (the origins of DOS) and later Microsoft had to make scarifies in its design.

For example processors lacked the necessary hardware to provide proper memory protection. 64KB, the starting point for the original PC, was quite constraining. Then there was the design of the PC itself. The ISA bus with its IRQs, COM ports, and DMA channel conflicts are essentially impossible for an OS to address. These issues didn't exist on mainframe computers because IBM did a proper design on them, unlike the PC.

Once computing power increased to the point where it could support proper memory protection and the legacy ISA bus was jettisoned the software side of the ecosystem was well entrenched. Microsoft could just discard like OS/2 attempted to do. Like it or not backwards compatibility was key to Microsoft's success.

But that's all in the past now. Today's systems and Windows versions are stable and reliable. Are they mainframe levels? Certainly not, but then they don't cost a million dollars and require dedicated IT support either.

I have used all three OS's extensively in my life, but this week I have to say that with Ventura, Apple is gaining on Microsoft. What a mess, and even on my vanilla setup.

I can't comment on Venture as the goal of my even being in this thread was to read about problems people may be having before I upgrade my Studio. However, when I see a comment where someone says Windows constantly "blowing up" and "severe mass destruction" I have to ask what the issue is that they're experiencing that leads to such statements.
 

tmoerel

Suspended
Jan 24, 2008
1,005
1,569
Well folks, just wanted to relate some experiences I've had in my small foray into Ventura and am done with this iteration of the OS it appears. A few major halting / critical points on an M1 Max system (also, just to be clear, I'm not a novice user - I've been a goto guy that has helped Apple "Geniuses" over the years when they can't figure things out) :
Rant much lately??? I have been running Ventura since beta 1 on a M1 MBP. None of your problems.
Looks like you are just looking for gripes so you can rant here!
 

Heat_Fan89

macrumors 68030
Feb 23, 2016
2,783
3,620
Sorry but he has no credibility by using the word "Winblows". To use such a word tells me the individual lacks the maturity to provide a rational argument. If he has issues with Windows then he should, as requested, state what they are without hyperbole ("blowing up" and "severe mass destruction").

Windows isn't without its issues but I use it almost every single day without issue. In fact I can't recall the last time I had an issue with it.



Mainframes are multi-million dollar systems which, at least at the time, had considerably more resources (processing power, memory, disk, etc.) then a garden variety PC. DOS's origins are for hardware with drastically lower computing power. Thus Seattle Computer Products (the origins of DOS) and later Microsoft had to make scarifies in its design.

For example processors lacked the necessary hardware to provide proper memory protection. 64KB, the starting point for the original PC, was quite constraining. Then there was the design of the PC itself. The ISA bus with its IRQs, COM ports, and DMA channel conflicts are essentially impossible for an OS to address. These issues didn't exist on mainframe computers because IBM did a proper design on them, unlike the PC.

Once computing power increased to the point where it could support proper memory protection and the legacy ISA bus was jettisoned the software side of the ecosystem was well entrenched. Microsoft could just discard like OS/2 attempted to do. Like it or not backwards compatibility was key to Microsoft's success.

But that's all in the past now. Today's systems and Windows versions are stable and reliable. Are they mainframe levels? Certainly not, but then they don't cost a million dollars and require dedicated IT support either.



I can't comment on Venture as the goal of my even being in this thread was to read about problems people may be having before I upgrade my Studio. However, when I see a comment where someone says Windows constantly "blowing up" and "severe mass destruction" I have to ask what the issue is that they're experiencing that leads to such statements.
Yeah, unfortunately that is still a problem with the Mac scene. It has come a long way shedding its 90's past but you still run into the Elitist groupie on occasion. It quickly becomes my dad is taller than your dad, my dad is stronger than your dad, my dad can kick your dad's butt etc.
 
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