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LizKat

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Just finished Fall of Giants, part 1 of The Century Trilogy by Ken Follet, starting in the early 20th Century, Europe and US, just prior to WWI, excellent. Yes, it took me forever. On to part 2, Winter of the World.


Yah, at around a thousand pages, could take awhile. Wow. And that's just the first book.

I glanced at the Amazon page for the second book and some review said ""This book is truly epic. . . . The reader will probably wish there was a thousand more pages." :D not sure about that wish but it sounds like the effort to read the pages that exist will be worth it. I might have to take a look at it but tbh I am looking to read some other stuff at this point, been reading about WWI so long I'm ready to read comic books.
 

Huntn

macrumors Penryn
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Yah, at around a thousand pages, could take awhile. Wow. And that's just the first book.

I glanced at the Amazon page for the second book and some review said ""This book is truly epic. . . . The reader will probably wish there was a thousand more pages." :D not sure about that wish but it sounds like the effort to read the pages that exist will be worth it. I might have to take a look at it but tbh I am looking to read some other stuff at this point, been reading about WWI so long I'm ready to read comic books.
The author educated me with clarity on the exact nature and sequence of the spark for WWI along with the efforts to thwart the Bolshevicks from succeeding in overthrowing the Tsar and turning Russia communist.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
Just finished Fall of Giants, part 1 of The Century Trilogy by Ken Follet, starting in the early 20th Century, Europe and US, just prior to WWI, excellent. Yes, it took me forever. On to part 2, Winter of the World.


I read that book, never warmed to it, (whereas I had loved The Pillars of the Earth) and so decided to forego the sequels after a swift glance or two (that failed to beguile) in a book-shop.

From the books I acquired a couple weeks ago, I've decided to read Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies by Jared Diamond, a work that attempts to answer the question of why Eurasian societies advanced at a much more rapid rate than societies in other parts of the world, and why they eventually came to dominate the rest of the world (presenting a thesis not dependent on genetic superiority of Europeans, the explanation popular in 19th century).

I'm also reading, for a linguistics course, Ergativity by R.M.W. Dixon, a scholarly portrait of ergative alignment and the languages that exhibit such an alignment, viz. many Australian aboriginal languages. Ergativity is a syntactic alignment scheme whereby the subject of a transitive verb is marked apart from other nominal arguments, contrary to what occurs in English and most European languages where it's the transitive object that's set apart (either by case or word order). If English had ergative alignment, we would have sentences like "He hit me" and "Him went to the store". Interesting stuff :D

Jared Diamond's book is brilliant, well-argued, genuinely original and extraordinarily interesting.

The work by Dixon sounds fascinating.
 
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FeliApple

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Just finished Fall of Giants, part 1 of The Century Trilogy by Ken Follet, starting in the early 20th Century, Europe and US, just prior to WWI, excellent. Yes, it took me forever. On to part 2, Winter of the World.

I finished that one too a few days ago! Really entertaining and informative. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
 
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LizKat

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Still making time each day to reach the finish both of two ebooks borrowed from the library and mentioned previously here, before they simultaneously self-destruct from my laptop on the borrowing expiry date.

Christopher Clark -- The Sleepwalkers: how Europe went to war in 1914
Margaret MacMillan -- The war that ended peace: the road to 1914

A lot of very good material has been published about WW1 over the past few years, and I've read both books; the are excellent.

I'm well into the Clark book, and so I'm focused at the moment on MacMillan's. I’m really having fun reading this book despite its being about making war out of peace. How can I put this book down and get back to my chores?! I may have to add this to my personal collection and read it again whenever I wish. Here's a bit to suggest why that thought is appealing:

On September 2 [1898] the British and Egyptian forces overwhelmingly defeated the Mahdi’s army at Omdurman outside Khartoum. Kitchener then opened sealed orders which he had been sent from London to discover that he was to move north up the Nile to Fashoda and persuade the French to withdraw.

On September 18 he arrived at Fashoda with five gunboats and a large enough force to outnumber the French comfortably. At Fashoda itself, relations were perfectly amicable. The British were impressed by the way the French had made themselves comfortable with their flower gardens and their vegetables, especially the haricots verts.

The French were delighted to get recent newspapers from home although horrified to learn about the Dreyfus affair which was now dividing France: “An hour after we opened the French newspapers [we] were trembling and weeping,” said one of the expedition.

Kitchener gave Marchand a whisky and soda. (“One of the greatest sacrifices I ever made for my country,” the Frenchman later said, “was to drink that horrible smoky alcohol.”) The French provided warm champagne in return. Both parties politely but firmly claimed the surrounding territory and both refused to withdraw. [3]

Word of the standoff sped northwards by steamship and telegraph. The reactions in Paris and London were much less temperate than on the ground. For Britain and France, of course, their confrontation at Fashoda was weighted down with memories of a long and turbulent shared history. Hastings, Agincourt, Crécy, Trafalgar, Waterloo, William the Conqueror, Joan of Arc, Louis XIV, Napoleon, all ran together into a picture on the east side of the Channel of perfidious Albion and on the other of treacherous France. And Fashoda was also about the long struggle for world dominance since the sixteenth century.

3. Tombs and Tombs, That Sweet Enemy, 126, 428–9; Roberts, Salisbury, 702; Eubank, “The Fashoda Crisis Re-examined,” 146–7.

MacMillan, Margaret. The War That Ended Peace: The Road to 1914 (Kindle Locations 2918-2932). Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
 
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MacDawg

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"Between the Hedges"
Still making time each day to reach the finish both of two ebooks borrowed from the library and mentioned previously here, before they simultaneously self-destruct from my laptop on the borrowing expiry date.

Christopher Clark -- The Sleepwalkers: how Europe went to war in 1914
Margaret MacMillan -- The war that ended peace: the road to 1914

If these 2 interest you, then you should have a look at Barbara Tuchman's The Guns of August

I'm finishing up the 3rd book of the Red Sparrow Trilogy: The Kremlin's Candidate
 
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LizKat

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Wanting some new reads. Maybe some alternative history fiction. What's the opposite of that? I'd like some of that, too. Something that takes place in 2025-2040 but isn't science fiction or high tech.

Have you read Omar El Akkad's novel American War? The time frame you mention rang that into my brain, although it's set later with references "back to" 2030, 2040... I had referenced this novel in some PRSI thread about climate change last fall, link here. I mostly enjoyed the book although it's quite dark. It's amazing how much of the enduring spirit of the American south is to be found right around here in the northwesternmost bits of the Appalachian chain, right alongside people with Yankee mindsets also nurtured for generations. Some of those characters of El Akkad's novel... I know them. His book might not be alt history fiction after all. Time will tell but so far I'm only maybe 35% ticked off that I won't be here to find out.

[ No intent to politicize the books thread by this post ]
 

LizKat

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If these 2 interest you, then you should have a look at Barbara Tuchman's The Guns of August

I'm finishing up the 3rd book of the Red Sparrow Trilogy: The Kremlin's Candidate

Can't decide if I want to venture into that trilogy or not. Earlier comments in the thread sort of put me off it but the title of the 3rd one pulls me back somewhat.

I have read Tuchman's The Guns of August. I was not spellbound by the later chapters on tactics, more by the glimpses into what affects policy and development of strategies. But that book may have been what got me started on reading a lot more about that war. I remember as a kid during WWII always thinking it strange for people to call some war from what I then considered the dustbins of history "The Great War" -- since everyone around me seemed to think the one we were in was "the war to end all wars".

Tuchman was writing about 1914 in the 1960s. It's hard to imagine what anyone will write about any of our 21st century wars in 2060. Don't they all boil down in the end to "mistakes were made"? But what a variety of mistakes we humans manage to achieve in arriving at and concluding our wars with each other.
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
Still making time each day to reach the finish both of two ebooks borrowed from the library and mentioned previously here, before they simultaneously self-destruct from my laptop on the borrowing expiry date.

Christopher Clark -- The Sleepwalkers: how Europe went to war in 1914
Margaret MacMillan -- The war that ended peace: the road to 1914



I'm well into the Clark book, and so I'm focused at the moment on MacMillan's. I’m really having fun reading this book despite its being about making war out of peace. How can I put this book down and get back to my chores?! I may have to add this to my personal collection and read it again whenever I wish. Here's a bit to suggest why that thought is appealing:


Again, to my mind, two excellent books.

Can't decide if I want to venture into that trilogy or not. Earlier comments in the thread sort of put me off it but the title of the 3rd one pulls me back somewhat.

I have read Tuchman's The Guns of August. I was not spellbound by the later chapters on tactics, more by the glimpses into what affects policy and development of strategies. But that book may have been what got me started on reading a lot more about that war. I remember as a kid during WWII always thinking it strange for people to call some war from what I then considered the dustbins of history "The Great War" -- since everyone around me seemed to think the one we were in was "the war to end all wars".

Tuchman was writing about 1914 in the 1960s. It's hard to imagine what anyone will write about any of our 21st century wars in 2060. Don't they all boil down in the end to "mistakes were made"? But what a variety of mistakes we humans manage to achieve in arriving at and concluding our wars with each other.

I liked Tuchman's work, and it was rightly considered a classic when published (no mean achievement for a woman publishing in the field of 'high history' at the time).

Your post reminds me of a piece by Eric Hobsbawm (it can be found in an introduction to one of his books, if memory serves), where, in his introductory lecture, he casually mentioned 'the Second World War' to a group of American students he was delivering a course to. He stressed that they were bright kids, just not especially well-informed. One of the youngsters put up his hand, and asked politely, "does that mean that there was a First World War?" at which point Hobsbawm realised that what he needed to teach them, and the assumptions he had made about what they might reasonably have been assumed, or expected, to have already known, needed to undergo drastic revision.

However, the historian Gwynne Dyer (in "War" - an excellent book) argues that there have been a number of "world wars" if one considers a world war to have been a conflict in which all of the major powers of a given time, or era, took part, and that the consequences of that war tended to have wide ranging and far reaching effects. By his criteria, for example, the "30 Years War" (1618-48) - an example he cited - could be classed as a 'world war', an argument that I believe has considerable merit.
 
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LizKat

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I liked Tuchman's work, and it was rightly considered a classic when published (no mean achievement for a woman publishing in the field of 'high history' at the time).

I remembered liking her book Proud Tower, so was having a glance back through that for awhile this morning. The architecture of the work was interesting: discrete essays --snapshots or portraits, one could say-- of the particular cultural and social currents in ascendancy (or decline) among European powers in the run-up to World War. Tuchman was making a point that despite popular references to "the summer before the war" as having some sort of golden haze about it, those descriptions were made from a perspective formed after that war. To live in that summer was to see things rather differently, even if one later remembered that summer as the end of a golden era. As she put it, "A phenomenon of such extended malignance as the Great War does not come out of a Golden Age."
 
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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
Still making time each day to reach the finish both of two ebooks borrowed from the library and mentioned previously here, before they simultaneously self-destruct from my laptop on the borrowing expiry date.

Christopher Clark -- The Sleepwalkers: how Europe went to war in 1914
Margaret MacMillan -- The war that ended peace: the road to 1914



I'm well into the Clark book, and so I'm focused at the moment on MacMillan's. I’m really having fun reading this book despite its being about making war out of peace. How can I put this book down and get back to my chores?! I may have to add this to my personal collection and read it again whenever I wish. Here's a bit to suggest why that thought is appealing:


In autumn 2014, - a century after the events that set off the First World War - (though, if it hadn't been that trigger, I suspect it would well have been another), I was sent to Bosnia (where I had last observed a number of elections in the mid to late 1990s, just after the Dayton Accords brought most of the Balkan wars following the break-up of Yugoslavia to an end) to observe an election.

I spent some time in Sarajevo immediately after the election, and stood, stupefied, at the spot on the quays where the Heir Presumptive to the throne of the Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary, Archduke Franz Ferdinand had his date with destiny in June 1914.

@LizKat, have you read Ian Beckett's book, "The Great War"? (The second edition is the more recent); this was published in time for the centenary of the war, in 2014, and is well worth a look.

Needless to say, the old town of Sarajevo is very interesting and well worth visiting, a warren of small, cosy, streets, full of atmosphere thick with history. Again, coffee shops are to be found everywhere, along with some bars, restaurants, Europe's oldest mosque, and a place where the cobblestones were worn smooth with the footfall of thousands of feet over hundreds of years.

The tourist board had a hilarious (and very impressive) gable wall, where tours were advertised. If you have such a history, it makes sense to make it work for you.

Anyway, Ancient Sarajevo featured - as did the history of Ottoman Sarajevo, along with Jewish Sarajevo, and Habsburg Sarajevo, all with their own tours. The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, Heir to the Throne of Austria-Hungary, in June 1914, had its own tour, as did Sarajevo WW1 and ('German Occupied') Sarajevo WW2. Of course, the more recent conflict featured as well, with one particular tour (called The Tunnel Tour) devoted to exploring the tunnels which kept the city supplied during the civil war of the 1990s. Other tours also marked the more recent conflict.

However, by background, training, profession and - for quite a long time - I was a teacher of history and would still regard myself, first, and foremost, as a historian, even though, these days, I do not darken classroom doors. In any case, given the year that it was, and given that I was actually standing there (and had sought it out), one anniversary above all others called to me.

Thus, I walked to the corner - a surprisingly tight corner, on the quays, where a lovely old (rebuilt) bridge crosses the river, and where a tight junction on the other side of the road leading down sharply brings you almost immediately into the Old Town - it is at right angles to the road along the quays itself; this is the spot where the open topped car driving the Heir (Presumptive) to the Throne of the Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary, (the Austro-Hungarian Dual Monarchy), Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, Countess Sofie Chotek, took a wrong turn on the afternoon of June 28, 1914.

Quite a few years ago, the excellent British historian AJP Taylor wrote a wonderful (short, and exquisitely written and exceptionally well argued) book on the First World War. (I recommend it, @LizKat).

It opened with a characteristically arresting and thought-provoking sentence which read something as follows: "The Archduke Franz Ferdinand was a very unpleasant man, but he had one redeeming quality: He truly loved his wife."

The book proceeds to explain how theirs was a genuine love match, but the antique protocol (dating from the time of the Spanish Habsburgs) which governed relationships within the Imperial & Royal family decreed that one could only marry someone of similar (ducal, or arch-ducal) rank. Thus, when they married (in defiance of the wishes of the Royal family), Franz Ferdinand was obliged to make a morganatic marriage, which meant that his wife could not share his royal rank - or titles, or precedence - at official State functions. As a 'mere' countess, Sophie Chotek, was treated as such, and regularly snubbed, which bitterly rankled with Franz Ferdinand (and although she was subsequently elevated to a higher peerage, it still remained lower than the royal rank held by her spouse).

However, as a military officer, (and he was obsessively interested in matters military) and at military functions, his spouse would be treated as though she held his rank ('Frau General' and so on), and viewed and treated as his social equal, and so, he sought engagements where his wife could accompany him in his capacity as colonel-in-chief, or commander of regiments.

This is the background to the reason why he was in Sarajevo on June 28, 1914. He had come to review regiments and garrisons - a ceremonial series of functions with a military flavour, where his wife would be accorded his rank, and treated as his equal.

As is well known, radical Serb nationalists (viewed with horror by most of the actual Serbian political and military elite and establishment, but not by a special section of Serb military intelligence) had long plotted against the Austrian authorities in Bosnia. The country itself had been annexed by the Austrians in 1908, having been ruled and occupied (with international agreement) by them since 1878.

Earlier that morning, one of the conspirators had hurled a bomb at the cavalcade of cars transporting the Archduke and his party; Franz Ferdinand saw the bomb coming, and swiftly deflected it with his arm, (where it then bounced on the bonnet of the following motor-car, and exploded, seriously injuring some of the occupants). The conspirators fled and dispersed, the bomb thrower, meanwhile, easily captured after trying - unsuccessfully - to throw himself into the river, which - after an incredibly warm summer - was rather low.

Franz Ferdinand proceeded to a formal meeting at the City Hall, accompanied by his wife, shocked and incandescent with rage, where he furiously berated the Mayor and assembled local officials for their casual and utterly unprofessional attitude to security related matters. Photographs of the day show him livid with fury striding out of the meeting which was hosted for him by local dignitaries, cramming his shako on his head.

The official tour proceeded, along the quays, and the car containing the Archduke took a wrong turn (what a metaphor, for life, for conflict, collapse) from the quays along the river, where the quays run parallel to the old town, down a somewhat steep, quite short hill, which leads straight into the Old Town. This error was quickly realised - the rest of the entourage still on the quays - and the driver stopped, seeking to put the car into reverse gear, to reverse back out onto the quays, a few short metres (yards) away.

One of the conspirators from the morning's botched assassination by bomb-throwing was sitting, sipping coffee, feeling very sorry for himself, (but as yet unarrested, unlike his other colleagues) when the Archduke's open-topped car ground to a halt in front of him, the driver fumbling for the reverse gear.

Gavrilo Princip, 18 years old, tubercular, (already turned down for formal terrorism activities by Serb military intelligence on the grounds of inexperience, possible incompetence, immaturity, youth, and ill-health) couldn't believe his eyes or his luck. He rose from his seat, leapt onto the running board of the momentarily stationary car, and poured the contents of his revolver into the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, the Countess Sophie Chotek who both sat in the wide back seat, side by side, and who gamely tried to protect each other. They both were killed, (Franz Ferdinand crying out 'Sophie - don't die - live for the children').

Within days, the Austrian Government had dispatched an ultimatum to the Government of Serbia; after some thought, the Serbs accepted all sections of the ultimatum, with the exception of one. That was not considered sufficient. Within six weeks, Europe was at war, a war that became known as the First World War.
 
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Gutwrench

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Think Dog, by Brian Fisher.
[doublepost=1523967709][/doublepost]
Gavrilo Princip, 18 years old, tubercular, (already turned down for formal terrorism activities by Serb military intelligence on the grounds of inexperience, possible incompetence, immaturity, youth, and ill-health) couldn't believe his eyes or his luck. He rose from his seat, leapt onto the running board of the momentarily stationary car, and poured the contents of his revolver into the Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his wife, the Countess Sophie Chotek who both sat in the wide back seat, side by side, and who gamely tried to protect each other. They both were killed, (Franz Ferdinand crying out 'Sophie - don't die - live for the children').

Within days, the Austrian Government had dispatched an ultimatum to the Government of Serbia; after some thought, the Serbs accepted all sections of the ultimatum, with the exception of one. That was not considered sufficient. Within six weeks, Europe was at war, a war that became known as the First World War.

I’m an avid reader of History.com as well.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/austria-hungary-issues-ultimatum-to-serbia
 
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MacDawg

Moderator emeritus
Mar 20, 2004
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Finished up the Red Sparrow trilogy

Overall, it was pretty good although it was uneven in spots. Some things just felt more realistic and believable, while others required you to remind yourself, "well, its just a book after all." For instance, sometimes they went to extreme lengths to 'get black' while others it seemed they could do whatever the hell they wanted and it was OK.

Personally, I liked the strategy and intrigue far more than I did the interactions between Nate and Dominika. In fact, Nate was prolly my least favorite of the major characters. He seemed to be strong operationally (at times), but so weak and whiny personally at others. Some of the characters were very good, while others seemed to be cartoon characters or stereotypical caricatures (Putin).

That said, I was pretty disappointed with how the last book ended. It seemed like the author grew weary of writing and just tied things up and sent it to the publisher. I'm not saying it should have had a fairy tale ending, far from it, but I would have preferred there be more substance.
 
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LizKat

macrumors 604
Aug 5, 2004
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Think I'm not going to scout this one up, but the tweet is a hoot.

PlausibleDeniabilitySquared.jpg
 

0388631

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I wouldn't say it's an awful idea of how a woman may feel and or appear after three days of no sleep. Just an awful idea of what a person may look and feel like after three days of no sleep. You'd be surprised of the books written by both men and women with opposite sex pen names.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
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In a coffee shop.
Think I'm not going to scout this one up, but the tweet is a hoot.

View attachment 759223

Agreed.

How perfectly idiotic; the sort of nonsensical writing that men used to be prone to when writing - cluelessly - about women. "Come to bed eyes" after three days without sleep? What utter tosh. No, it is more likely to be a case of "fall on floor with catatonic exhaustion, eyes glued shut."

Taking a quick trot through "The Horn of Africa - State Formation and Decay" by Christopher Clapham.
 
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0388631

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What exactly are "come to bed eyes," because it's only something I've seen in written material. I wasn't aware you could tell emotions from the dilation of pupils.

It's one of those literary phrases that don't quite make any sense. One I recall was about the tautness of skin between the fingers in some sensual passage of an old 1970s thriller, where the main character was having a liaison with a woman.

Liaison isn't quite the correct word to use, but I can't think quite clearly at this hour. There used to be a very dated term for those meetings that died out in the late 1950s.


Edit: Amorous. I think.
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
What exactly are "come to bed eyes," because it's only something I've seen in written material. I wasn't aware you could tell emotions from the dilation of pupils.

It's one of those literary phrases that don't quite make any sense. One I recall was about the tautness of skin between the fingers in some sensual passage of an old 1970s thriller, where the main character was having a liaison with a woman.

Liaison isn't quite the correct word to use, but I can't think quite clearly at this hour. There used to be a very dated term for those meetings that died out in the late 1950s.


Edit: Amorous. I think.

Seriously, I cannot envisage how anyone - traumatised by a murder and without sleep for three nights - would be able to produce amorous eyes in such a situation; I thought this sort of nonsense in print had died out.
 

0388631

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Seriously, I cannot envisage how anyone - traumatised by a murder and without sleep for three nights - would be able to produce amorous eyes in such a situation; I thought this sort of nonsense in print had died out.

I can think of one person who would skin a ginger tom and solicit the services of a woman of the night.
 
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