What should I limit my battery charge level to?

[Broko Fankone]

I understand the idea behind not letting it reach 100% (been a fan of batteries since I started vaping 6 years ago and they also have the same rules behind them). My biggest fear is how much real damage does the battery take by sitting at 0% and is there a chance for the mac to have some kind of cut-off where it won't start but the battery still has enough capacity to not take chemical damage.

Having to replace the battery is a dreadful idea because the shop I got this mac from is utterly incompetent. I think it would better if I tried to do that myself when I have to, in the future, I just hope it's not soon. I also fear of swelling due to the 0% damage it could have suffered.

As for Al Dente, I assume that one user had a different problem and in theory limiting to 50% should be ideal for every LiPo battery of this type.

 

[johnmacward]

DISCLAIMER:

Before some smartass decides to tell me that it won't help increase the longevity of my battery, I don't need your opinion. My motive is to keep the battery cycle count low to increase resale value when I sell it next year. I know a bunch of smartasses will try to tell me that there's no difference, but a fact you can't argue with is that a lower cycle count increases resale value.

Once again, if you want to be a smartass, please don't comment. I mean I'm not stopping you, but I'll pretty much just ignore you. So don't waste your time telling me how it won't help my battery health. I know, and I don't give a f. It's not the point of the discussion, keep your comment spam somewhere else.

Wouldn't you just be better off ignoring the unwanted comments, focusing on the responses that are useful and keeping the insults to others in this, your introductory post to a minimum. You sound like someone who's on their hind legs growling like a pitbull and this is just a question about a battery.

 

[maik_is_here]

My MBP16 has gone from 86% Capacity since I started using al dente (set at 70%, I need battery some times) 1 week ago to 84%. Hmm. Not what I hoped. Need to monitor more.

I am worried that the battery still keeps trickle charging at this stage, but I Guess that’s better than at 100%?

one question to you all: should we disable battery health management when using al dente? Do they conflict?

thanks!

 

[Broko Fankone]

My MBP16 has gone from 86% Capacity since I started using al dente (set at 70%, I need battery some times) 1 week ago to 84%. Hmm. Not what I hoped. Need to monitor more.

I am worried that the battery still keeps trickle charging at this stage, but I Guess that’s better than at 100%?

one question to you all: should we disable battery health management when using al dente? Do they conflict?

thanks!

Capacity is acting weird for me. I just charged the laptop to 100% to check how it is and it said 95%... after 17 cycles. But then, after removing the charging cable, a couple of minutes later it went to 98.2%, then 97.7%, and then back to 98.2%. All in the span of about 2 mins. The fluctuations are too often to determine what exactly is going on. (Edit: it went to 99% and then to 97.6% - I don't know what is real...)

 

[BigMcGuire]

I have seen on the last Mac OS update - the capacity flucate more than ever. In the past (I have spreadsheets going back to 2015) - it was pretty solid, but as of last Mac OS update (not counting one yesterday) - it has been moving around a lot.

I have just chalked it up to the battery health management? I figure it is reducing capacity to protect the battery slightly.

Like others I've noticed my capacity fluctuating significantly more than ever from 90-96%.

I also noticed the constant trickle charging having this little app running. This vs having the battery at 100% and "not charging" ..... probably healthier to have battery at 55% and trickle charging vs at 100% and not being used. But you'll see the benefits of that in the long run (2-3+ years), not right away.

 

[Broko Fankone]

I have not noticed trickle charging, or if there is some - it's not really noticeable. The battery states "Not charging" and I see "On external power" too - while coconut says 0 watts charging when it sits limited at 55% with Al Dente.

Btw I did turn off battery health and still get these fluctuations, so IDK. As long as the capacity stays in that 95-100% range for a very long time I wouldn't mind it. Hope it doesn't drop as drastically as some of the new 16" MBPs.

Also, keep in mind heat affects battery in a negative way. These newer MBPs from the last few years tend to let the battery sit at 40C and above. Especially when you use external monitors and USB devices that might draw power from the mac.

This is why I am considering buying a dock like TS3+, just so all of my devices draw power from it instead.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Basically popping back from 96% to 93% and back.

This doesn't bother me, just want to make that clear - just an observation.

I'm using Charge Limiter atm.

 

[Broko Fankone]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry about it (even though I check the health daily, lmao). I guess I lied - I do kinda worry about it, but the readings from my history seem to be looking good. I am not sure how it decided the % for each day, given fluctuations occur so many times in the span of 24h.

Here's the last week for me:

I think I'll have to wait and see how the condition changes over the next few months, while using Al Dente. If it remains in those high percentages then I'd be very glad!

 

[teidon]

I'm pretty sure you have to deep cycle the battery to get accurate health information. Also worth pointing out that the health can only go one direction. Any and all damage that happens to Li-ions over time is permanent. You can only slow down the degradation, not reverse it.

 

[Broko Fankone]

I'm pretty sure you have to deep cycle the battery to get accurate health information. Also worth pointing out that the health can only go one direction. Any and all damage that happens to Li-ions over time is permanent. You can only slow down the degradation, not reverse it.

Obviously - there are no health-regenerating batteries yet as far as I know These increases in % are fluctuations and incorrect readings, so they are not as reliable without a deep cycle, as you said. The problem is that a deep cycle is a full cycle, so it's best to do that rarely. It's better to save the battery vs to obsess about the exact health percentage.

 

[yukari]

The battery health % is dependent on the temperature of the battery at the time of measurement.
So I am not worried about a few % fluctuations.

It is the long term trend that I am interested in.

 

[Broko Fankone]

By the way, can anyone link me the Charge limiter app used for Mojave?

 

[yukari]

By the way, can anyone link me the Charge limiter app used for Mojave?

GitHub - itsjoshpark/charge-limiter: macOS app to set battery charge limit for Intel MacBooks

macOS app to set battery charge limit for Intel MacBooks - itsjoshpark/charge-limiter

github.com

 

[lambertjohn]

My bad, should have clarified. Apple's health management thing drains and refills it between 90 and 100, and that eventually adds cycles. I could turn it off, but then it'd be around 100% for months, and I think it's better if I just leave it at say 50% for a few months.

Why would you be at 100% for months?? Do what I do and run the computer on battery only, down to 15% or so at least once a month. Then plug the AC back in and charge it back up. Been doing that with my MacBooks for years and my batteries have always been in great shape. Even the battery in my 2010 MBP still holds a great charge, six hours at least.

 

[mcaswell]

Why would you be at 100% for months?? Do what I do and run the computer on battery only, down to 15% or so at least once a month. Then plug the AC back in and charge it back up.

Running the battery down every now and then is good practice, but with this method the battery (assuming usually leave it plugged in) will still be spending about 95% of its time fully charged. Not that this automatically means it's not going to have a satisfactory life (as you note your 2010 is still fine), but it just goes against the current advice of not letting lithium ion batteries stay fully charged all/most of the time.

 

[0906742]

Does this Charge Limiter app also work if you charge MacBook powered off so that it will not charge past percentage you adjusted it? Also does this app actually stop charging battery above set limit and then use computer from charger only if it is plugged, or will it just constantly use a little battery and then charge again until set limit? I mean will it increase battery charge cycles considerably vs. just letting it charge fully until it stops and then it will run on the charger only?

 

[BigMcGuire]

Does this Charge Limiter app also work if you charge MacBook powered off so that it will not charge past percentage you adjusted it? Also does this app actually stop charging battery above set limit and then use computer from charger only if it is plugged, or will it just constantly use a little battery and then charge again until set limit? I mean will it increase battery charge cycles considerably vs. just letting it charge fully until it stops and then it will run on the charger only?

I'd definitely make sure you hear from several users (not just myself). My experience with the app - it actually sits in a "not charging" state and runs off wall power. However, because the battery is <100% it does use the cycles a little bit more (but this is a good thing as it keeps the battery healthier). Apple's own battery management tries to utilize 20% of the battery a day based on what I've seen (it'll drain down to 80% then charge back to 100% at least once a day).

I have the Charge Limiter set to 80% now because sometimes I need to use my battery a little. It keeps it at 80% even when the laptop is off and plugged in - in my experience.

So: No, won't increase cycles considerably - just slightly more (not even worth worrying about) - it does run 100% off of wall power when it reaches whatever you set it to.

 

[Broko Fankone]

In my experience with AlDente I go through 1 cycle over ~10 days by keeping the battery at ~50%.

If we do the math, it means it approximately charges through 10% per day, although this can vary and quite frankly I think it's way less. The reason I got this number is because I left my laptop to sleep daily and it didn't sleep properly, discharging about 3% per night a few times. I believe the cycles will amount much, much more slowly if the laptop is plugged in all the time so that it doesn't have to charge full percentages at any point. But that is not realistic.

Here's how the history from the last few weeks looks like: (I do 1 full cycle every 1-2 weeks but I plan to do that more rarely in the future)

 

[BigMcGuire]

Just checked coconutBattery history online and wow...

If this isn't a stark reason to use Charge Limiter ... I don't know what is. Health is going back up!

28 months old now.

 

[Fean0r]

Great thread - I've been itching for a technical discussion like this. And I've been searching all week on Google for a battery charge limiter but couldn't find anything, so thank you for posting these links! For those who have used both Charge Limiter and AlDente, which do you prefer and why?

Do you use either app alongside the new Battery Health Management in MacOS, or do you switch off BHM?

Also - for the battery experts here, particularly the guy who's got a degree in this tech, how much damage does heat from the system do to the internal battery? I've another thread here about keeping the Macbook cool when running demanding apps to avoid this.

That's a bummer because I often go to bed with it to do some number crunching overnight (so its ready with the results the next morning).

Honestly, I wouldn't worry about that. Your laptop is a tool to be used, and I'm sure that either of the charge limiting apps posted here will protect your battery from over-use perfectly adequately without disconnecting over night.

Fast discharge and charge rates are bad for Li-Ions. For example Android users are so happy to have and eager to use fast charging on their devices but that feature actually kills your battery. But fast discharging is also an issue and especially problematic with MBPs because you might do some serious work on those devices while on battery which will not only discharge the battery rapidly but also elevate the temperature due to heavy CPU/GPU use.

But I do not have an answer right now how bad it actually is. But if possible avoid super fast charging/discharging, high temperatures (over 30°C) and low (below 30%) and high (over 80%) charge levels.

“if possible” meaning that it’s a tool you use for a purpose and the battery is going to fail sooner or later. So when you can, avoid the harmful states, but use the device as intended when you can’t.


EDIT: Fast discharge is bad for Energy Cell kind of Li-Ions, but they have protective circuits to prevent it. Power Cells can be discharged at much higher rate than energy cells.

I've been wondering whether charging the Macbook with a 45W or 60W USB-C charger might reduce battery wear. Obviously just for charging, not for running the Macbook (or at least, not for demanding apps) - what do our resident battery experts think about that?

My observations of using Charge Limiter - while I see no difference in battery temperatures (monitoring via coconutBattery) --- it seems the armrests are a lot warmer than I remember them being. But could just be me. I'm still using it. I have it set to 75% now because I'm using my laptop ... on my lap, a bit more than usual. Working all day at my desk = I don't wanna sit at my desk for the rest of the day.

In the past I've seen value in keeping my battery 90-100 because the charging is slow (trickle charging). So I think I might set the charge limiter to 85% - that may keep the armrests cool? Something I'm going to try soon.

Haven't noticed much of a difference between 60% and 75%. Will be upping it to 85% soon.

This makes no sense to me. By armrests I presume you mean the space either side of the trackpad? I can't for the life of me understand why your laptop would be warmer when the battery's held at a different level, whether that's higher or lower. If the battery isn't charging, whether it's at 50%, 75% or 100%, no heat should be being created (and I doubt trickle-charging at 100% would make any noticeable difference either).

 

[BigMcGuire]

This makes no sense to me. By armrests I presume you mean the space either side of the trackpad? I can't for the life of me understand why your laptop would be warmer when the battery's held at a different level, whether that's higher or lower. If the battery isn't charging, whether it's at 50%, 75% or 100%, no heat should be being created (and I doubt trickle-charging at 100% would make any noticeable difference either).

Agreed, it didn't to me either. I concluded, after some time of usage, that this was just me not being used to using my laptop ... on my lap. I tested heat at 100% and 50% and found little difference - because like you said the battery isn't charging. It was just my initial impression that this could have been the cause. I will update that post to reflect this cuz I completely forgot I posted it. Thanks

 

[yukari]

... For those who have used both Charge Limiter and AlDente, which do you prefer and why?

Do you use either app alongside the new Battery Health Management in MacOS, or do you switch off BHM?

Also - for the battery experts here, particularly the guy who's got a degree in this tech, how much damage does heat from the system do to the internal battery? I've another thread here about keeping the Macbook cool when running demanding apps to avoid this.
...

As far as I am aware, Charge Limiter is for Mojave (it does NOT work on Catalina) and Al Dente is for Catalina OSX.

Temperature does a quite of bit of damage to the polymer. Basically, higher temperature degrades the polymer in Li-ion battery faster. Therefore, cooler you can keep the battery is better.

 

[Fean0r]

As far as I am aware, Charge Limiter is for Mojave (it does NOT work on Catalina) and Al Dente is for Catalina OSX.

Temperature does a quite of bit of damage to the polymer. Basically, higher temperature degrades the polymer in Li-ion battery faster. Therefore, cooler you can keep the battery is better.

Thanks. Fingers crossed AlDente will work on or be updated for Big Sur.

Re: temperature damage that's my understanding too, but all the temperature threads seem to focus on concern about the CPU - but that doesn't concern me in the slightest as long as the system isn't thermal throttling. I just want to minimise battery aging and that's why I'm wondering about whether a cooling pad might help with that.

What are your thoughts about using a lower wattage charger for charging to reduce aging?

I'm also thinking of getting a PD battery bank, but the 100W ones are eye-wateringly expensive with a few reviews saying they damaged equipment. I'm wondering whether using a 45W one when the internal battery has plenty of charge might also reduce stress on the internal battery, especially when running demanding apps causing the system to draw a lot of current. What are your thoughts on that? I haven't been able to get a sensible technical answer on other forums.

 

[hollandog]

As far as I am aware, Charge Limiter is for Mojave (it does NOT work on Catalina) and Al Dente is for Catalina OSX.

Temperature does a quite of bit of damage to the polymer. Basically, higher temperature degrades the polymer in Li-ion battery faster. Therefore, cooler you can keep the battery is better.

I'm using Charge Limiter on Catalina it's working.

 

[magbarn]

Thanks. Fingers crossed AlDente will work on or be updated for Big Sur.

Re: temperature damage that's my understanding too, but all the temperature threads seem to focus on concern about the CPU - but that doesn't concern me in the slightest as long as the system isn't thermal throttling. I just want to minimise battery aging and that's why I'm wondering about whether a cooling pad might help with that.

What are your thoughts about using a lower wattage charger for charging to reduce aging?

I'm also thinking of getting a PD battery bank, but the 100W ones are eye-wateringly expensive with a few reviews saying they damaged equipment. I'm wondering whether using a 45W one when the internal battery has plenty of charge might also reduce stress on the internal battery, especially when running demanding apps causing the system to draw a lot of current. What are your thoughts on that? I haven't been able to get a sensible technical answer on other forums.

I fly RC helis for fun so I’ve played with quite a few lithium batteries throughout the years. Some use big batteries as large as 12 cell lipos running at 52 volts. Anyways, some of my packs I’ve left at 100% all the time as I end up using them almost weekly while others are kept at a 55% charge level most of the time and are only charged when I’m ready to fly. Some packs I charge at 4C which charges the packs very fast and are done in about 20 minutes. Others I charge at 1C which takes over a hour. In my experience, the charge level and number of cycles affects the battery much more than charge rate. Also, heat is a bigger killer depending what the charge level the battery is at. In other words a 100% charged battery will be much more susceptible to damage than a battery at 50%.