When will Apple directly compete with Surface Pro?

[kasakka]

W
I’ve been wondering why Apple couldn’t do a tablet that ran both MacOS and iOS, merely switching between the two environments. Running MacOS would disable all touch features. Two OS sharing the same hardware and processor and display, with a keyboard folio. That to me would be optimal as it would limit he size and weight of the device, while also reducing the cost of my investment, while keeping the best features of both devices without compromise. This is obviously not optimal for Apple, but would be ideal for most Apple customers I’d expect.

It would be jarring to switch between two distinct operating systems and running both simultaneously would be its own issue. Throw on top that MacOS runs on x86 and iOS on ARM architecture and you would need to port MacOS or run it in a virtual machine.

To me the way to go would be to relax the imposed limitations on what iOS can run (e.g. not allowing web rendering engines other than WebKit, not allowing to run say NodeJS in a terminal, not having a proper sandboxed file system to work with) and allow for better peripheral support for controlling the UI so it's not touch-only for everything but typing. Split screen multitasking support should be a mandatory supported feature of all apps so you don't have to try and be disappointed when an app doesn't work with it.

It's easier to make a touch-based UI work with a mouse than it's to make a mouse-based UI work with touch. Adding support for the Apple trackpad would give you the benefits of a mouse while keeping things like swipe gestures and multitouch.

There is no reason why iOS can't work as a full fledged desktop system, it just lacks the software and external hardware support to do so.

 

[tromboneaholic]

MacOS runs on x86 and iOS on ARM architecture and you would need to port MacOS or run it in a virtual machine.

I'd be willing to bet macOS has been running on ARM for years.

When Apple announced the switch from Motorola CPUs to Intel x86 in 2005, this is what Steve Jobs said:

"There are two major challenges in this transition. The first one is making Mac OS X sing on Intel processors, right? Now, I have something to tell you today. Mac OS X has been leading a secret double life for the past five years. ... And our rules have been that our designs for OS X must be processor-independent and that every project must be built for both the PowerPC and Intel processors. And so today for the first time, I can confirm the rumors that every release of Mac OS X has been compiled for both PowerPC and Intel. This has been going on for the last five years."

Since iOS is based on macOS, and Apple is designing their own ARM CPUs, there is no reason to think they wouldn't still be developing macOS as processor-independent, but with ARM in mind.

Now that ARM-based chips can be as powerful as Intel ones, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think Apple might be tired of intel's delayed schedule and getting close to putting ARM in the Mac. They probably already have prototypes.

Like the last switch, it's going to be the apps that need to be ported. Mojave introduced a framework for bringing iOS apps to the Mac, so it definitely seems apple is telegraphing it's move here.

 

[sracer]

There is no reason why iOS can't work as a full fledged desktop system, it just lacks the software and external hardware support to do so.

There is a big reason why iOS can't work as a full-fledged desktop system... at it's core, it is fundamentally a smartphone OS. Can Apple make changes to iOS to overcome the limitation imposed by that framework? Yes. But would it still be iOS?

This is the classic "Ship of Theseus" paradox.

 

[QquegChristian]

I think so many people get caught up calling the Surface a terrible tablet, that they don’t realize it is a fantastic pen tablet, like a Cintiq.

It’s a laptop you can disconnect and use to take handwritten notes in OneNote, draw in Illustrator etc, or edit photos in Photoshop.

The pen is the killer feature, not the tablet experience. You can’t tell me there aren’t a ton of artists, photographers, and even just note-takers who wouldn’t want to flip their MacBook Pro around and start writing on the screen with an Apple Pencil, even if all other touch (fingers) was disabled.

Wacom has been selling pen tablets for decades. The Surface is a laptop that replaces my Wacom in my bag, not an iPad.

The best actual iPad replacement is these big iPhones we have now...

 

[Mac 128]

It would be jarring to switch between two distinct operating systems and running both simultaneously would be its own issue. Throw on top that MacOS runs on x86 and iOS on ARM architecture and you would need to port MacOS or run it in a virtual machine.

No more jarring than putting the iPad down and picking up a MacBook and vice-versa. We’re already doing this, but my goal is to put both devices into one light 1lb device to carry around, instead of two 3+ lb devices. As @tromboneaholic writes so succinctly above, the Mac likely already runs on ARM architecture. If the hardware is not a limitation, then it would be nothing to log out of the iPad and into the Mac and use both OS as intended. Both OS would share the same common storage resources for files, so when one ran into limitations on the iPad OS, they simply switch to Mac and continue working on the same file. Likewise, when someone needs to use a Pencil, they switch out of the Mac and back to the iPad. It’s the exact same dance I do right now with two different devices, moving files back and forth with iCloud or airdrop, and managing two completely different devices with their own unique power requirements. Sharing USB-C at least simplifies that. But now let me share the same local storage and I’ve really sped up the process.

This solves the problem the surface has of being a great laptop, but a terrible tablet. Everything doesn’t need to use a touch interface just because there is one, but Apple could add a virtual Touch Bar for instance along the bottom of the Mac display. Add a trackpad to the keyboard which extends the current functionality of the virtual text editing trackpad on the iPad, while being a full fledged macOS trackpad, and of course Mouse support for the Mac but not the iPad. Those are literally the only differences between the two devices now. That and the Mac still has a headphone jack.

This is pure convenience for the customer, and will ultimately affect Apple’s bottom line, which many would say is the reason we haven’t seen it yet. Apple makes a lot more off two devices and accessories than they do off of one. But as chromebook and surface become a bigger threat, Apple will have to address the issue, or risk losing their Mac business entirely, and relegating the iPad solely to a less profitable casual and artistic niche. Apple has been pretty good at knowing the tipping point which is why I suspect we’ve seen some of the concessions we’re seeing now — switch to USB-C on both devices, AFS, keyboards as integral to iPad use, with virtual trackpads a marketed feature, rumored Macs running on ARM, and iOS app ports to Macs.

Apple already allows one device to boot into two different OS with boot camp, so this isn’t new territory for them, it’s just the first time they’ll do it with their own OS, and the only thing that stands in the way is the processor, which Apple has shown us in the past is not much of a barrier.

 

[Knowimagination]

Can you explain why the iPad sells more than any laptop if it is not giving what people want?

If people didn't want it they wouldn't buy it.

You may want an iPad with full OS on it, I don't and love the iPad for what it is. It is a computer replacement to those with limited needs, but is also a great companion device for those with a laptop whose needs are more in depth.

It is not the compromised product a surface is. It is a tablet primarily, and as far as I can see, barely has any competition.

I think you missed the point of my post.

Apple regularly removes things that users say they want or adds things that users don’t think they need they don’t have a history of just giving in to the consumer.

I have no desire to see an iPad with Mac OS on it. I love the iPad and want to see it continued to develop as an iPad.

People buying something doesn’t mean that Apple is giving them what they want, it means that people realize that they want what Apple had given them.

 

[flur]

I think so many people get caught up calling the Surface a terrible tablet, that they don’t realize it is a fantastic pen tablet, like a Cintiq.

It’s a laptop you can disconnect and use to take handwritten notes in OneNote, draw in Illustrator etc, or edit photos in Photoshop.

The pen is the killer feature, not the tablet experience. You can’t tell me there aren’t a ton of artists, photographers, and even just note-takers who wouldn’t want to flip their MacBook Pro around and start writing on the screen with an Apple Pencil, even if all other touch (fingers) was disabled.

Wacom has been selling pen tablets for decades. The Surface is a laptop that replaces my Wacom in my bag, not an iPad.

The best actual iPad replacement is these big iPhones we have now...

Yes, the pen is great, but I don’t enjoy using my Surface Pro as a pen tablet anywhere near as much as my iPad. It’s heavy and cumbersome. It’s better if I take they keyboard off, but then I have to have somewhere to put it and surprisingly (to me) I don’t always have a place to stick it. But even with the keyboard off, it’s still a lot heavier than my iPad. For how I work, in Procreate and when taking notes, I prefer the iPad. Also, I like to take breaks, check email, etc., and the iOS experience of moving from OneNote or Lightroom to another app is significantly better than Win10.

 

[secretk]

Yes, the pen is great, but I don’t enjoy using my Surface Pro as a pen tablet anywhere near as much as my iPad. It’s heavy and cumbersome. It’s better if I take they keyboard off, but then I have to have somewhere to put it and surprisingly (to me) I don’t always have a place to stick it. But even with the keyboard off, it’s still a lot heavier than my iPad. For how I work, in Procreate and when taking notes, I prefer the iPad. Also, I like to take breaks, check email, etc., and the iOS experience of moving from OneNote or Lightroom to another app is significantly better than Win10.

That's interesting. Sorry for asking. I just have not tried the Surface device. Can you elaborate on why do you think that switching between apps is more cumbersome? How do you do it and why does it take you longer to do it?

 

[flur]

That's interesting. Sorry for asking. I just have not tried the Surface device. Can you elaborate on why do you think that switching between apps is more cumbersome? How do you do it and why does it take you longer to do it?

In the tablet interface, you have to either pin all the apps you use to the tiles or you have to select all apps, then scroll through the alphabet to get to the app you want. You can’t organize them into homepages like you can in iOS, which is a much faster way of getting to them.

Also, there’s no home dock in tablet mode. You can, of course, work in laptop mode, which gets you the home dock, but that’s not a great experience as a tablet either.

 

[secretk]

In the tablet interface, you have to either pin all the apps you use to the tiles or you have to select all apps, then scroll through the alphabet to get to the app you want. You can’t organize them into homepages like you can in iOS, which is a much faster way of getting to them.

Ah I see. So there is no way to pin the most used apps somewhere for easy access? Or it takes a lot of time to be pinned. I guess if you have a lot of apps that you use regularly, it might take a while to pin them.

 

[flur]

Ah I see. So there is no way to pin the most used apps somewhere for easy access? Or it takes a lot of time to be pinned. I guess if you have a lot of apps that you use regularly, it might take a while to pin them.

Yeah, you could pin them to the tiles. But if you also use laptop mode, it’s easier to use the home dock than the tiles, so you wind up pinning them in two places. You can absolutely do it and make it work, it’s just annoying to me. I’d rather just flick up the home dock on the ipad and open my next app without even having to leave my current app.

 

[secretk]

Yeah, you could pin them to the tiles. But if you also use laptop mode, it’s easier to use the home dock than the tiles, so you wind up pinning them in two places. You can absolutely do it and make it work, it’s just annoying to me. I’d rather just flick up the home dock on the ipad and open my next app without even having to leave my current app.

I see when it can get annoying to be honest. I have issues with opening too many apps for a short period of time so I have issues with having only the 3 recent apps because I change them so quickly in the iPad. For now I circumvent this by keeping my most used apps on the dock on the left side which helps me changing apps faster. However on Surface Pro the changing between apps seems even worse.

My usual case is switching between browser and OneNote during meetings. I tend to check my work email via browser (if I use the mail app, my emails get deleted from my desktop app and this is not what I want) during meetings and I write down my notes in OneNote.

I usually color at home and then I just use my laptop to change apps.

 

[StellarVixen]

Apple won't compete with something that almost no one is buying.

IF the Surface starts biting significant pieces off from the Apple's profits, they might reconsider. But, for foreseeable future, I think Apple is gonna keep making the tablet with powerful hardware, running phone OS. Which is a shame.

 

[Dave-Z]

Yeah, you could pin them to the tiles. But if you also use laptop mode, it’s easier to use the home dock than the tiles, so you wind up pinning them in two places. You can absolutely do it and make it work, it’s just annoying to me. I’d rather just flick up the home dock on the ipad and open my next app without even having to leave my current app.

I'm pretty sure you can have quick launch in the task bar in tablet mode, it's just not enabled by default.

Having been experimenting with Windows 10 in tablet mode, it is NOT as good as iOS. But I do love that I can just switch tablet mode off and use a keyboard/mouse and windowed applications when I need it.

 

[flur]

I'm pretty sure you can have quick launch in the task bar in tablet mode, it's just not enabled by default.

Having been experimenting with Windows 10 in tablet mode, it is NOT as good as iOS. But I do love that I can just switch tablet mode off and use a keyboard/mouse and windowed applications when I need it.

It’s been a couple of years since I tried it, but when I did it previously, it didn’t stick - I had to reselect it each time I went into tablet mode. Maybe they’ve fixed that?

I just use it as a laptop, and ignore tablet mode entirely. It’s my company-issued machine so I don’t really need tablet mode. I don’t regularly use it for notes because I need my notes when I do my work, and I don’t much care for Win10 multi-tasking, it’s just a lot easier to have my notes in a paper notebook.

 

[Mac 128]

Apple won't compete with something that almost no one is buying.

IF the Surface starts biting significant pieces off from the Apple's profits, they might reconsider. But, for foreseeable future, I think Apple is gonna keep making the tablet with powerful hardware, running phone OS. Which is a shame.

Then why is Apple actively marketing the iPad as a “computer” replacement, complete with external keyboard, and touting a built-in trackpad for the virtual keyboard? All of that seems directly targeted at potential Surface and chromebook customers.

 

[StellarVixen]

Then why is Apple actively marketing the iPad as a “computer” replacement, complete with external keyboard, and touting a built-in trackpad for the virtual keyboard? All of that seems directly targeted at potential Surface and chromebook customers.

Apple has been offering keyboards as additional accessory for iPad since the very first iPad in 2010. Long before Surface even existed. Current keyboard is the evolution of that. Not a single iPad in its history came with keyboard out of box.

 

[J0ker]

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves."

 

[Mac 128]

Apple has been offering keyboards as additional accessory for iPad since the very first iPad in 2010. Long before Surface even existed. Current keyboard is the evolution of that. Not a single iPad in its history came with keyboard out of box.

Yup. But there was no trackpad feature, and they weren’t promoting it. In fact they discontinued the First keyboard dock pretty quickly, less than a year later, with no new attached keyboard offering for over 4 years. Now they’re doing commercials where parents ask their kids what they’re doing on their computers and the kids say “what’s a computer” about their iPads propped up on an Apple Smart Keyboard Folio. That’s not what was going on in 2010. Only once the Surface hit the market and caught on did Apple start Making, and pushing the attached keyboard again, as well as integrated laptop features. And, isn’t the Surface keyboard an optional add-on accessory as well? I don’t recall ever saying Apple included one in the box either.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/03/19/forgotten-history-obscure-apple-accessories/

 

[tromboneaholic]

Yup. But there was no trackpad feature, and they weren’t promoting it. In fact they discontinued the First keyboard dock pretty quickly, less than a year later, with no new attached keyboard offering for over 4 years. Now they’re doing commercials where parents ask their kids what they’re doing on their computers and the kids say “what’s a computer” about their iPads propped up on an Apple Smart Keyboard Folio. That’s not what was going on in 2010. Only once the Surface hit the market and caught on did Apple start Making, and pushing the attached keyboard again, as well as integrated laptop features. And, isn’t the Surface keyboard an optional add-on accessory as well? I don’t recall ever saying Apple included one in the box either.

https://9to5mac.com/2018/03/19/forgotten-history-obscure-apple-accessories/

Yes, but "what is a computer?"

It's certainly not a keyboard or a trackpad.

 

[secretk]

Yes, but "what is a computer?"

It's certainly not a keyboard or a trackpad.

Until we had smartphones and tablets a computer had either mouse (desktop) or trackpad (laptop) so people would associate computer with mouse/trackpad. You are right that now with having powerful smartphones and tablets it's not longer about mouse or trackpad. However I would argue that it never was. Or let's say it this way - it's not that specific question.

Keyboard, trackpad and mouse are tools to use to interact with the software you have installed on your advice. As we did not have touch displays this was our only way to interact with the software we have installed and to use it.

With touch screens here comes another way - touch. The question here is is touch enough and can it provide the same functionality that we receive from keyboard, mouse and/or trackpad. And this is not about the computer argument itself. It's about can you use your installed software up to its potential or not. And that to the core is the discussion we tend to have every other day in this board. A lot of threads under different titles but in the end of the day it comes to one's usage, preferences and overall needs.

For some touch is enough. We definitely have a lot of people like that in that board. For others it's not. We have two options. Either the people in the second groups would get used to touch interface or they will continue wanting to use something else (keyboard, trackpad/mouse). If people are in the second group they might not want having multiple devices (especially considering their prices) so they would have a specific demand for a device that offers all 4 input methods. And here comes this thread. It seems that the people that want the iPad to complete with Surface Pro are about this specific choice.

On the other hand companies could either say for us the touch interface is sophisticated enough you need to get used to it or they will invest time and money to improve it. I am willing to say that the second group of people would accept this alternative as well, but for this to happen they need to show the companies that the current touch capabilities are not enough for them. Hence this thread.

Only future will tell us what would happen. Of course it also depends on the criteria people use to choose a device. For some people hardware is most important, for others software and for some it's both. We have a lot of options now so people can choose between different devices (pure tablets, 2 in 1 laptops, pure laptops, desktops).

I do hope that this conversation takes different turn in 4/5 years and that things have changed. We will see.

 

[bensisko]

The good news is that the macOS tablet exists and you can buy one today - it’s called the ModBook.

The thing is, there really is an audience for about 50 of these things (yes, I exaggerate). Sure, a lot of people SAY they want one, but actual sales of such a device would be pretty low.

There is a big reason why iOS can't work as a full-fledged desktop system... at it's core, it is fundamentally a smartphone OS.

That may have been true years ago, but iOS has evolved way beyond being “a smartphone OS”. It’s capable of handing more complex apps, but developers don’t build them because they still have this mentality.

 

[Mac 128]

Yes, but "what is a computer?"

It's certainly not a keyboard or a trackpad.

That’s true. Prior to 1977 it was defined for the public by a room full of big boxes accessed by punch cards. Then it was a command line interface to a suitcase-sized box until about 1984, and for the last 30 years it has been a mouse and trackpad on ever shrinking boxes. So when the average person thinks of a “computer”, they think of that, even though a computer is actually so much more. And that’s what this thread is about — based on the commercial I reference, Apple is defining a computer as a device with a keyboard at least, and the iPad as something beyond that (perhaps touch?), while showing a child using it no differently than what the average consumer has known a computer to be for the last 30 years — except without a mouse/trackpad maybe (by all appearances it could be a Surface in that commercial). The implication is clear — this device can replace ... and perhaps surpass, the “computer” the public is currently using. Unfortunately it can’t, at least as far as the public expects it to.

But that doesn’t stop Apple from marketing it with all the things the public expects a computer to have, including a virtual trackpad — a term which also carries all sorts of expectations the iPad doesn’t deliver on. So the real question is why would Apple set up this expectation? Is it to re-educate the public about what a “computer” is? Or is it to offer them a hybrid touch-based tablet they can use the same way they can use a “computer”? And why market such a device if there’s no demand? Why get out of the iPad keyboard market before the surface comes out, then jump back into it once the surface gains traction in the marketplace? Why advertise a trackpad which is nothing of the kind?

I agree a computer is so much more than a keyboard and trackpad. But I gurantee the average consumer thinks a “computer” is exactly that, and Apple’s marketing to that expectation without necessarily delivering on it. Most of these threads are full of semantic debates, rather than addressing the intent. Maybe I’m wrong and Apple is embarking on a re-education campaign, but if so, I’d say they’re failing.

 

[sracer]

That may have been true years ago, but iOS has evolved way beyond being “a smartphone OS”. It’s capable of handing more complex apps, but developers don’t build them because they still have this mentality.

It's still true. The ability to handle more complex apps does not stop iOS from being a smartphone OS. The foundational structure of iOS is still geared toward a smartphone.

One of the distinctives of a smartphone OS is that it is app-centric. That is, the user's first step of interacting with the device is to select the app that provides the function they want to use. Want to make a phone call? select the "Phone" app. Send a message? Select the "message" app. In contrast, desktop OSes (in additional to app-centric operation) offer the ability to be data-centric. The user's first step of interacting with the device can be to select the data file to be operated on. Select the file and the app associated with that file type is launched to interact with the file.

iOS is app-centric and does not offer a data-centric option. The Files.app is simply Apple's workaround to attempt to provide a data-centric option....but it itself is an app and so the first interaction with the device is to launch an app... the first true step toward a data-centric option would be to allow individual data files to be placed on the homescreen.

Apple has added so many patches to that basic framework that the current UX is a mess. Just look at system and app settings as one example. The option trees in "Settings" may make sense to the Apple engineers but for the average user, they aren't intuitive. Unless one were to traverse all settings to see what is available, a person can miss a lot.

There's also no rhyme or reason as to why some app settings are located in the app and which are located in "Settings".

 

[tromboneaholic]

That’s true. Prior to 1977 it was defined for the public by a room full of big boxes accessed by punch cards. Then it was a command line interface to a suitcase-sized box until about 1984, and for the last 30 years it has been a mouse and trackpad on ever shrinking boxes. So when the average person thinks of a “computer”, they think of that, even though a computer is actually so much more. And that’s what this thread is about — based on the commercial I reference, Apple is defining a computer as a device with a keyboard at least, and the iPad as something beyond that (perhaps touch?), while showing a child using it no differently than what the average consumer has known a computer to be for the last 30 years — except without a mouse/trackpad maybe (by all appearances it could be a Surface in that commercial). The implication is clear — this device can replace ... and perhaps surpass, the “computer” the public is currently using. Unfortunately it can’t, at least as far as the public expects it to.

But that doesn’t stop Apple from marketing it with all the things the public expects a computer to have, including a virtual trackpad — a term which also carries all sorts of expectations the iPad doesn’t deliver on. So the real question is why would Apple set up this expectation? Is it to re-educate the public about what a “computer” is? Or is it to offer them a hybrid touch-based tablet they can use the same way they can use a “computer”? And why market such a device if there’s no demand? Why get out of the iPad keyboard market before the surface comes out, then jump back into it once the surface gains traction in the marketplace? Why advertise a trackpad which is nothing of the kind?

I agree a computer is so much more than a keyboard and trackpad. But I gurantee the average consumer thinks a “computer” is exactly that, and Apple’s marketing to that expectation without necessarily delivering on it. Most of these threads are full of semantic debates, rather than addressing the intent. Maybe I’m wrong and Apple is embarking on a re-education campaign, but if so, I’d say they’re failing.

Not that I entirely disagree, but the Surface keeps being brought up (as it should, being the subject of the thread).

For all of 2017, Microsoft sold 3 million Surface devices (including Pro). Apple sold a total of 43.8 million iPad units in 2017.

Apple needs to be careful that by adding complexity to the OS in order to attract a relatively small market, it will turn off a portion of its larger existing user base that choose iPad for ease of use.