When will Apple directly compete with Surface Pro?

[IowaLynn]

I detest trying to select text and getting the cursor where it needs to be. Multiple trial and errors. Unable to see what is under a finger as I move the cursor. A place where the Note 9 stylus works well. And even the Apple pencil while an improvement, for the price it should be, but cant use it in numbers spreadsheets as a pointing and text tool. Acts like I want to draw. So forced to use Excel.

Doesn't feel thought out.

Now trying out Surface Go as tablet to be a companion to 2017 IPP; and Surface Laptop 2 ($999) as desktop, replacing 2015 MacBook. And instead of 2018 IPP 12.9 should meet my needs.

This thread helps weigh my choices and options.

 

[duffyanneal]

I detest trying to select text and getting the cursor where it needs to be. Multiple trial and errors. Unable to see what is under a finger as I move the cursor.

There are better ways to select text. Check out the link.

https://www.imore.com/how-use-trackpad-mode-iphone-and-ipad

 

[Booji]

After really really trying to make my iPad Pro 9.7 and then 10.5 my go-to mobile computing device, after all the frustration I finally threw in the towel and went back to the Dark Side and got a Surface Pro 6.

So far, it has exceeded my expectations. Really no compromises in my workflow anymore, and I can use the full Adobe CC suite with no limitations. For when I use it as a tablet - Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop, the Microsoft Pen is as good or better than the Apple Pencil. For workflows on Excel and PowerPoint, there really is no comparison. Plus, the keyboard is so much better and backlit as well.

Finally, I no longer need to have my MacBook Air around to fill in the gaps, so it is essentially two devices in one. At home, I use the Surface plugged into a large monitor and the main device as second monitor and it is very elegant this way as I can remove the keyboard.

Yes, the tablet experience sucks on the Surface, and I really do love the elegance and simplicity of iOS and Mac OS, but the fact that I needed two devices actually added complexity in my overall workflow.

However, I am waiting to see what happens with iOS - when it finally allows me to do everything I want, I can go back to the iPad Pro.
[doublepost=1543023331][/doublepost]

I detest trying to select text and getting the cursor where it needs to be. Multiple trial and errors. Unable to see what is under a finger as I move the cursor. A place where the Note 9 stylus works well. And even the Apple pencil while an improvement, for the price it should be, but cant use it in numbers spreadsheets as a pointing and text tool. Acts like I want to draw. So forced to use Excel.

Doesn't feel thought out.

Now trying out Surface Go as tablet to be a companion to 2017 IPP; and Surface Laptop 2 ($999) as desktop, replacing 2015 MacBook. And instead of 2018 IPP 12.9 should meet my needs.

This thread helps weigh my choices and options.

Go for the Surface Pro 6. It has the same processor options as the Surface Laptop 2 and just a bit bigger than the Surface Go.

 

[ctg7w6]

It is just not Apple’s approach. From the beginning, Apple was against laptops with touch screens. I do not think Apple will ever make a convertible tablet running macOS. Apple will rather update the iPad Pro over the years to become a substitute for a laptop. But that will take time, not happening any time soon.

Here is my take on that: Apple follows its own vision for a long time... right until they can no longer ignore the market. We’ve seen this with big phones and styli. Sometimes the apple vision works out, like getting rid of floppy or dvd drives. Other times it doesn’t like large phones.

We will see a 2-in-1 iPad if 2 in 1s become a big thing. Otherwise, Apple will blindly keep following its vision. Apple is sometimes a leader and sometimes a follower, a follower especially when it has to give into market pressure.

 

[Dave-Z]

I ordered a Lenovo L380 Yoga on Black Friday. It's a 2-in-1 laptop; I'm going to try it out. The pricing was pretty good and this particular model is user upgradable so if I decide to keep it I can expand the storage and RAM. At first I was thinking Surface Pro 6 but I pretty much always have the Smart Keyboard Cover attached to my iPad so I figured I'd might as well get a convertable laptop. Plus the Lenovo might give me the option of Linux (which I generally prefer).

I still like my 12.9" iPad Pro, but I want to start exploring other options since pricing is getting out of hand with Apple products. This Lenovo was cheaper than the base model 2018 12.9" iPad Pro... by quite a bit, too. Only downsides are Windows and the unit's weight, but I'll get used to the latter.

 

[Mac 128]

There are better ways to select text. Check out the link.

https://www.imore.com/how-use-trackpad-mode-iphone-and-ipad

What’s ironic is that Apple takes that option away when the Apple Smart Keyboard Folio is attached. They do give you arrow keys (!?!).

After really really trying to make my iPad Pro 9.7 and then 10.5 my go-to mobile computing device, after all the frustration I finally threw in the towel and went back to the Dark Side and got a Surface Pro 6.

So far, it has exceeded my expectations. Really no compromises in my workflow anymore, and I can use the full Adobe CC suite with no limitations. For when I use it as a tablet - Adobe Illustrator and Photoshop, the Microsoft Pen is as good or better than the Apple Pencil. For workflows on Excel and PowerPoint, there really is no comparison. Plus, the keyboard is so much better and backlit as well.

Finally, I no longer need to have my MacBook Air around to fill in the gaps, so it is essentially two devices in one. At home, I use the Surface plugged into a large monitor and the main device as second monitor and it is very elegant this way as I can remove the keyboard.

Yes, the tablet experience sucks on the Surface, and I really do love the elegance and simplicity of iOS and Mac OS, but the fact that I needed two devices actually added complexity in my overall workflow.

However, I am waiting to see what happens with iOS - when it finally allows me to do everything I want, I can go back to the iPad Pro.
[doublepost=1543023331][/doublepost]

Go for the Surface Pro 6. It has the same processor options as the Surface Laptop 2 and just a bit bigger than the Surface Go.

Here’s the thing, the MBA is so thin and light now, that carrying an iPad and MBP around together is not really a burden, assuming price is not a concern. A nice folio designed to hold both would make it easy to carry them around together. If the Surface is ones only computer, then that’s a far more cost effective solution.

I’ve been wondering why Apple couldn’t do a tablet that ran both MacOS and iOS, merely switching between the two environments. Running MacOS would disable all touch features. Two OS sharing the same hardware and processor and display, with a keyboard folio. That to me would be optimal as it would limit he size and weight of the device, while also reducing the cost of my investment, while keeping the best features of both devices without compromise. This is obviously not optimal for Apple, but would be ideal for most Apple customers I’d expect.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Here is my take on that: Apple follows its own vision for a long time... right until they can no longer ignore the market. We’ve seen this with big phones and styli. Sometimes the apple vision works out, like getting rid of floppy or dvd drives. Other times it doesn’t like large phones.

We will see a 2-in-1 iPad if 2 in 1s become a big thing. Otherwise, Apple will blindly keep following its vision. Apple is sometimes a leader and sometimes a follower, a follower especially when it has to give into market pressure.

The thing about Apple historically is they say they are against it until they are for it. But when they are for it, they embrace it in ways the market didn't expect.

Take large-screen phones. I've read tech journalists and analysts speculating Apple has moved to the larger screens to support their upcoming streaming video service. They seem to forget people were clamoring for a large screen iPhone before iPhone 6 plus.

 

[Mr.Blacky]

I detest trying to select text and getting the cursor where it needs to be. Multiple trial and errors. Unable to see what is under a finger as I move the cursor. A place where the Note 9 stylus works well. And even the Apple pencil while an improvement, for the price it should be, but cant use it in numbers spreadsheets as a pointing and text tool. Acts like I want to raw. So forced to use Excel.

Doesn't feel thought out.

Now trying out Surface Go as tablet to be a companion to 2017 IPP; and Surface Laptop 2 ($999) as desktop, replacing 2015 MacBook. And instead of 2018 IPP 12.9 should meet my needs.

This thread helps weigh my choices and options.

Huh, What do you mean?

Don't you have this magnifying glass?

 

[duffyanneal]

What’s ironic is that Apple takes that option away when the Apple Smart Keyboard Folio is attached. They do give you arrow keys (!?!).

The article that I linked says that you can still user cursor mode with an external keyboard. I can confirm it works with an external keyboard, but I don’t have a Smart Keyboard to test.

 

[Mac 128]

The article that I linked says that you can still user cursor mode with an external keyboard. I can confirm it works with an external keyboard, but I don’t have a Smart Keyboard to test.

That’s an alternate method to invoke it (which continues to work with the keyboard attached since it doesn’t rely on the virtual keyboard). Which makes perfect sense if you’re using the touchscreen to type and edit. Once Apple moves the keyboard to the desktop and sits the display up vertically, then touching the screen for editing is the least desirable option, just like using the Pencil would be. Apple even says this is why they won’t bring a touch interface to the MBP display. The irony is that Apple makes the trackpad tool available, but doesn’t move the ability down to the physical keyboard as well when attached. Once the users hands are flat on the table, having to hold an unsupported hand up to the screen to do delicate maneuvers makes no sense. Using the pencil would be worse, as that’s a whole lot more effort to stop typing, pick up a pencil, hold it awkwardly, then put it down again, and resume typing. Supporting an optional trackpad would be the most logical option.

 

[DaveOZ]

Here’s the thing, the MBA is so thin and light now

Really? Twice the weight of a Surface Pro.

 

[Mac 128]

Really? Twice the weight of a Surface Pro.

I’m not saying it’s comperable, I’m saying it’s not the burden it once was. My 2012 MBP weighs almost 5lbs. A 2lb MBP and a 1lb iPad by comparison is nothing, not to mention the reduced bulk.

 

[DaveOZ]

I’m saying it’s not the burden it once was.

You're right. But just imagine is Apple allowed you to draw on the screen of the MacBook Pro and made the screen detachable and able to run iOS apps. We all know they can.

 

[flur]

Really? Twice the weight of a Surface Pro.

The Surface Pro 6 with type cover is 2.4 lbs. As the SP6 is a 12” screen, the comparable laptop from Apple is the 12” MacBook, which is 2 lbs. Add an iPad Pro or regular iPad for another 1 lb and you have 3 lbs to 2.4 lbs.

But, this scenario assumes that the SP6 has the same use case as the MacBook and an iPad. As an SP4 owner, I don’t feel it does. The tablet experience of the Surface Pro is significantly inferior to the experience of the iPad. When I travel with my SP4, I also bring my iPad.

 

[thunng8]

Really? Twice the weight of a Surface Pro.

Huh? It’s 2.4 for surface pro with type cover vs 2.75 for the air. Hardly twice. And the air has a significantly larger screen

 

[tromboneaholic]

Huh? It’s 2.4 for surface pro with type cover vs 2.75 for the air. Hardly twice. And the air has a significantly larger screen

MacBook weighs 2 pounds, if portability is the primary requirement.

 

[skaertus]

Can you explain why the iPad sells more than any laptop if it is not giving what people want?

If people didn't want it they wouldn't buy it.

You may want an iPad with full OS on it, I don't and love the iPad for what it is. It is a computer replacement to those with limited needs, but is also a great companion device for those with a laptop whose needs are more in depth.

It is not the compromised product a surface is. It is a tablet primarily, and as far as I can see, barely has any competition.

Let me give you my view on this.

I bought two iPads so far, and this was within five years. In the same period of time, I bought two different laptops: one from Apple, and one from Dell. I bought the same number of laptops and tablets in the same time period, but I bought double iPads than any specific laptop. This is of course because the iPad is unique among tablets, while there is a variety of different laptops to choose from. Macs are kind of unique, but they are still laptops.

The iPad is a beautiful device, it looks good and promises so much. I bought an iPad 3 (the new iPad) back in 2012, and it had a beautiful bright retina display. How not to love it?

But then I realized it was just a big iPhone. Of course I could do some more things with it, mainly because of its size. But it was still running iOS, which was a very limited operating system. It certainly could not replace my laptop, but it was a nice device.

But then, I carried my iPhone with me in my pocket all the time. And I had to carry the laptop around, as the iPad would not replace it. The iPad did not run Microsoft Office, and when it was released, it was very limited. With time, the iPad ended in a drawer, and I barely used it.

In 2016, Apple released the iPad Pro, and I bought it. It promised so much more. Four years later, the iPad was a far more powerful device than it was back in 2012. It had a pen(cil) and a keyboard. I would certainly be able to do much more with it now!

And then, in fact I could. I could write and draw on it, and the keyboard was nice. But then I realized it could still not replace my laptop. I use a lot Microsoft Office, especially Word. And the iPad is a poor device for writing. I could do nice things with it, but not all the things I needed. And a laptop can do everything I need.

So, in the end, the new iPad Pro, the pen, and the keyboard, are at home. I carry around my iPhone, and my laptop. I use the iPad Pro mainly for watching Netflix, and nothing much else. It is a great device, and I tried to make it fit my workflow. But it does not. A laptop is far better at this.

I am not alone in this. I talked to many people who bought iPads, and do not use them, or barely use it. The iPad is good, beautiful, and different. Apple seduced a lot of my friends into buying one, but they do not really need it. The only friend of mine who really uses the iPad said to me he only does it because he forces himself really hard to.

I may be biased, because I am an attorney, and I know too many people in my profession. We use a lot of Microsoft Office, and the iPad is poor at that. The iPad may be great for artists, and designers, and photographers, and musicians, but how many of those are there out there? Where I live, at least, there are far more attorneys than creative professionals.

So, while the iPad may be a great tool for some, it is still probably a distraction for the majority, who may have bought it mainly for the hype. Just a guess, though.

 

[pedregosa]

I may be biased, because I am an attorney, and I know too many people in my profession. We use a lot of Microsoft Office, and the iPad is poor at that. The iPad may be great for artists, and designers, and photographers, and musicians, but how many of those are there out there? Where I live, at least, there are far more attorneys than creative professionals.

I disagree. I’m also an attorney — an appellate specialist, so I have a very writing-intensive practice. I like writing on the iPad Pro. In some ways I prefer MS Word on that device to on a Mac — less clutter and unwanted features. And the iPad Pro makes for a more distraction-free experience because of its limited multitasking. I also like reading and annotating PDFs on the IPP. My main wish-list item would be Acrobat Pro DC. Can’t understand why Adobe doesn’t bring that to the iPad.

 

[Booji]

Let me give you my view on this.

I bought two iPads so far, and this was within five years. In the same period of time, I bought two different laptops: one from Apple, and one from Dell. I bought the same number of laptops and tablets in the same time period, but I bought double iPads than any specific laptop. This is of course because the iPad is unique among tablets, while there is a variety of different laptops to choose from. Macs are kind of unique, but they are still laptops.

The iPad is a beautiful device, it looks good and promises so much. I bought an iPad 3 (the new iPad) back in 2012, and it had a beautiful bright retina display. How not to love it?

But then I realized it was just a big iPhone. Of course I could do some more things with it, mainly because of its size. But it was still running iOS, which was a very limited operating system. It certainly could not replace my laptop, but it was a nice device.

But then, I carried my iPhone with me in my pocket all the time. And I had to carry the laptop around, as the iPad would not replace it. The iPad did not run Microsoft Office, and when it was released, it was very limited. With time, the iPad ended in a drawer, and I barely used it.

In 2016, Apple released the iPad Pro, and I bought it. It promised so much more. Four years later, the iPad was a far more powerful device than it was back in 2012. It had a pen(cil) and a keyboard. I would certainly be able to do much more with it now!

And then, in fact I could. I could write and draw on it, and the keyboard was nice. But then I realized it could still not replace my laptop. I use a lot Microsoft Office, especially Word. And the iPad is a poor device for writing. I could do nice things with it, but not all the things I needed. And a laptop can do everything I need.

So, in the end, the new iPad Pro, the pen, and the keyboard, are at home. I carry around my iPhone, and my laptop. I use the iPad Pro mainly for watching Netflix, and nothing much else. It is a great device, and I tried to make it fit my workflow. But it does not. A laptop is far better at this.

I am not alone in this. I talked to many people who bought iPads, and do not use them, or barely use it. The iPad is good, beautiful, and different. Apple seduced a lot of my friends into buying one, but they do not really need it. The only friend of mine who really uses the iPad said to me he only does it because he forces himself really hard to.

I may be biased, because I am an attorney, and I know too many people in my profession. We use a lot of Microsoft Office, and the iPad is poor at that. The iPad may be great for artists, and designers, and photographers, and musicians, but how many of those are there out there? Where I live, at least, there are far more attorneys than creative professionals.

So, while the iPad may be a great tool for some, it is still probably a distraction for the majority, who may have bought it mainly for the hype. Just a guess, though.

Spot on - if "Pro" definition includes those that use Word, PowerPoint and Excel a lot - especially the advanced features, there are just too many compromises with the iOS apps. Try pulling a large chunk of data from an Excel and building a detailed chart in PowerPoint - it is really crazy difficult. Oh, and Word with a lot of markups. Forget it.

 

[skaertus]

I disagree. I’m also an attorney — an appellate specialist, so I have a very writing-intensive practice. I like writing on the iPad Pro. In some ways I prefer MS Word on that device to on a Mac — less clutter and unwanted features. And the iPad Pro makes for a more distraction-free experience because of its limited multitasking. I also like reading and annotating PDFs on the IPP. My main wish-list item would be Acrobat Pro DC. Can’t understand why Adobe doesn’t bring that to the iPad.

Well, I never heard this from an attorney before. I do not like writing in the iPad Pro. I mean, the keyboard feels good, but there are too many compromises. I cannot adjust the position of the screen, like on a laptop or even on the Surface Pro. It is possible to use a PDF reader and Microsoft Word side-by-side, but the experience just feels better on a laptop. Microsoft Word has far fewer features: it cannot open PDFs, it does not have cross-references, and the list goes on. The "clutter" in fact is composed of features that save time for some users (such as me). And the keyboard of a laptop is better, and the iPad lacks the pointing device, which is very useful in word processing. So, I understand that you may like the iPad, but I was never able to write more than one page with it.

 

[charlituna]

I want an OS X tablet like the Suface Pro that can be a tablet or a docked laptop (with keyboard and trackpad). Why does Apple ignore this segment?

apple ignores that group because, and they have basically said this themselves, they think the Surface is a terrible device. especially the merging of a traditional computer OS with a tablet OS. Tim Cook himself has said that Apple will never merge their operating systems to both run on a single device.
[doublepost=1543131026][/doublepost]

I am not sure about “never”, but since the return of Steve Jobs, it is not...

steve started the idea of 'giving them what we think they should want'
[doublepost=1543131159][/doublepost]

Everyone wants an Apple product like the Surface Pro. Everyone.

no not EVERYONE does.
[doublepost=1543131322][/doublepost]

MacOS is not coming to the iPad.

that said, there are a few MacOS features that could and perhaps should. like something closer to the Mac OS version of Photos, especially things like adding keywords and faces that aren't detected by their machine learning. or a closer to Mac OS version of iMovie. or plug ins for new templates for Pages, fonts etc.
[doublepost=1543131412][/doublepost]

I I think Marzipan is an effort to bring more pro apps to the iPad, but that's about it.

other way. Marzipan is a UIKit for porting iOS apps to MacOS

 

[pedregosa]

Well, I never heard this from an attorney before. I do not like writing in the iPad Pro. I mean, the keyboard feels good, but there are too many compromises. I cannot adjust the position of the screen, like on a laptop or even on the Surface Pro. It is possible to use a PDF reader and Microsoft Word side-by-side, but the experience just feels better on a laptop. Microsoft Word has far fewer features: it cannot open PDFs, it does not have cross-references, and the list goes on. The "clutter" in fact is composed of features that save time for some users (such as me). And the keyboard of a laptop is better, and the iPad lacks the pointing device, which is very useful in word processing. So, I understand that you may like the iPad, but I was never able to write more than one page with it.

I'm not saying that an IPP would be a lawyer's only device. I don't know where you practice, but I suspect not in California, as they are pretty common around here.

 

[secretk]

Well, I never heard this from an attorney before. I do not like writing in the iPad Pro. I mean, the keyboard feels good, but there are too many compromises. I cannot adjust the position of the screen, like on a laptop or even on the Surface Pro. It is possible to use a PDF reader and Microsoft Word side-by-side, but the experience just feels better on a laptop. Microsoft Word has far fewer features: it cannot open PDFs, it does not have cross-references, and the list goes on. The "clutter" in fact is composed of features that save time for some users (such as me). And the keyboard of a laptop is better, and the iPad lacks the pointing device, which is very useful in word processing. So, I understand that you may like the iPad, but I was never able to write more than one page with it.

I am not a lawyer but I have the same sentiments when it comes to writing and iPad and Microsoft Office and iPad. For people like us that have to type a lot or to use Microsoft Office a lot, we need another device.

That being said I like to use the iPad (regular though, I don't need pro for this) to annotate PDF files. And to take handwritten notes. It definitely depends on the type of meetings a person has, but sometimes I can be faster with handwritten notes than typing. Especially when it comes to drawing stuff and adding touches on pictures.

It'a also sometimes easier to hand over to a colleague to read something so that it can be discussed.

For me iPad has its uses, but they are very narrow and specific and to the point where I can't justify buying a Pro. Regular yes, pro no. And honestly in few years once the one I currently have starts to slow down (I just bought my first one 2 months ago) I would definitely check Surface Pro as well. I have more usage for laptops than for tablets anyway so I don't care that the Surface is mediocre tablet.

 

[Booji]

Well, I never heard this from an attorney before. I do not like writing in the iPad Pro. I mean, the keyboard feels good, but there are too many compromises. I cannot adjust the position of the screen, like on a laptop or even on the Surface Pro. It is possible to use a PDF reader and Microsoft Word side-by-side, but the experience just feels better on a laptop. Microsoft Word has far fewer features: it cannot open PDFs, it does not have cross-references, and the list goes on. The "clutter" in fact is composed of features that save time for some users (such as me). And the keyboard of a laptop is better, and the iPad lacks the pointing device, which is very useful in word processing. So, I understand that you may like the iPad, but I was never able to write more than one page with it.

I am not a lawyer, but I have worked a lot with internal legal on contract work. Managing multiple versions to compare, and work with a marked up document on an iPad would be very difficult for me. However, for taking notes in meetings or writing drafts an iPad is just fine.

 

[DNichter]

apple ignores that group because, and they have basically said this themselves, they think the Surface is a terrible device. especially the merging of a traditional computer OS with a tablet OS. Tim Cook himself has said that Apple will never merge their operating systems to both run on a single device.
[doublepost=1543131026][/doublepost]

steve started the idea of 'giving them what we think they should want'
[doublepost=1543131159][/doublepost]

no not EVERYONE does.
[doublepost=1543131322][/doublepost]

that said, there are a few MacOS features that could and perhaps should. like something closer to the Mac OS version of Photos, especially things like adding keywords and faces that aren't detected by their machine learning. or a closer to Mac OS version of iMovie. or plug ins for new templates for Pages, fonts etc.
[doublepost=1543131412][/doublepost]

other way. Marzipan is a UIKit for porting iOS apps to MacOS

I think there is more value for Apple the other way around, but yes both ways will be utilized.