When will Apple directly compete with Surface Pro?

[rowspaxe]

I want an OS X tablet like the Suface Pro that can be a tablet or a docked laptop (with keyboard and trackpad). Why does Apple ignore this segment?

You can consider the last three years as the slowest ineffectual walk toward this goal. Keyboard support--
but no track pad. Monitor support--sort of. File system--but not really. Hard drive support--more or less.
Throw this together with a keyboard cover which is a fabric oragami souffle. Apple will get this right
when they are ready, and prepare yourself for the revolutionary Apple dock.
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I detest trying to select text and getting the cursor where it needs to be.

Maybe your not apple material? I saw a video today a guy doing video edits with the pencil: even for the
brand enthusiasts this a painful mess.

 

[dwig]

...
For all of 2017, Microsoft sold 3 million Surface devices (including Pro). Apple sold a total of 43.8 million iPad units in 2017.
...

While these numbers may be accurate, they are not the appropriate numbers to use as part of this discussion as they ignore all of the other manufacturers Windows machines in the same market segment. You need to include ALL Windows tablets to get decent comparison numbers.

 

[tromboneaholic]

While these numbers may be accurate, they are not the appropriate numbers to use as part of this discussion as they ignore all of the other manufacturers Windows machines in the same market segment. You need to include ALL Windows tablets to get decent comparison numbers.

This is the best compare I can find (from IDC):

In the 4th quarter of 2017 detachable 2 in 1 tablets sold 6.5 million worldwide.
In the 4th quarter of 2017 traditional slate tablets sold 43.1 million units worldwide.

 

[bensisko]

It's still true. The ability to handle more complex apps does not stop iOS from being a smartphone OS. The foundational structure of iOS is still geared toward a smartphone.

One of the distinctives of a smartphone OS is that it is app-centric. That is, the user's first step of interacting with the device is to select the app that provides the function they want to use. Want to make a phone call? select the "Phone" app. Send a message? Select the "message" app. In contrast, desktop OSes (in additional to app-centric operation) offer the ability to be data-centric. The user's first step of interacting with the device can be to select the data file to be operated on. Select the file and the app associated with that file type is launched to interact with the file.

iOS is app-centric and does not offer a data-centric option. The Files.app is simply Apple's workaround to attempt to provide a data-centric option....but it itself is an app and so the first interaction with the device is to launch an app... the first true step toward a data-centric option would be to allow individual data files to be placed on the homescreen.

Apple has added so many patches to that basic framework that the current UX is a mess. Just look at system and app settings as one example. The option trees in "Settings" may make sense to the Apple engineers but for the average user, they aren't intuitive. Unless one were to traverse all settings to see what is available, a person can miss a lot.

There's also no rhyme or reason as to why some app settings are located in the app and which are located in "Settings".

I don’t think “app-centric” or “data-centric” defines it as a “smartphone OS” vs. a “desktop-os”. Personall, I would HOPE the future is more App-centric. I’ve said it before but a file-centric workflow is amazingly outdated (to me). Dealing with individual files, organizing and sorting them is something the computer should be doing by now for me. I MUCH prefer a gallery view in the app to “save as” dialog.

I seriously have a problem with thinking my future computing experience is going o continue to be defined by a File Browser.

It’s clear to me that Apple doesn’t want iOS/iPad to become yet another “desktop” device, especially given the definition above. The point of iOS is to have a device where the OS gets out of your way. With other OSes, there’s too much presence of the OS - I just want to be in the app.

I will grant that iOS is “mobile-centric”, but I think “computer” use as a whole is going more toward that. I think defining it as a “smartphone” OS is undervaluing it.

As for the Settings, I have never had a problem with Settings in iOS, especially with the Search.

I do agree about the Settings being in both the App and the Conrol Panel, but that’s true on the Desktop as well (though it’s not as big of an issue).

 

[secretk]

When it comes to settings menu I give the apple the reward of having the most ridiculous settings menu ever. Like even Windows cannot accomplish this (they are in second place only because at least their settings are only system settings and not app settings). Apple prides themselves in having intuitive iOS. It's far from it. It's absurd.

I have 70 apps installed on my iPad. And I have 70 tabs on the left side of my settings. Again absurd. It's too cluttered. I cannot find anything there. Yes, it has search but that only further proves how not usable this is. Apps have no place in the Apple's device settings menu and they should not be there at all.

You said it yourself. iOS is app basic system. Then why I can't change the apps settings from the app but have to go to the main Settings menu? On top of it there is no logic in the way Apple groups the settings there.

As for the rest it's preference. I am all for files base centered system. It's easy for me to start from the file and open it then to think what I want to do, then to go the specific app (that is not easy to find when you have 70 apps like me) and open it. It takes more time.

I do see that the file base approach could be cumbersome to organize and work with.

 

[flur]

When it comes to settings menu I give the apple the reward of having the most ridiculous settings menu ever. Like even Windows cannot accomplish this (they are in second place only because at least their settings are only system settings and not app settings). Apple prides themselves in having intuitive iOS. It's far from it. It's absurd.

I have 70 apps installed on my iPad. And I have 70 tabs on the left side of my settings. Again absurd. It's too cluttered. I cannot find anything there. Yes, it has search but that only further proves how not usable this is. Apps have no place in the Apple's device settings menu and they should not be there at all.

You said it yourself. iOS is app basic system. Then why I can't change the apps settings from the app but have to go to the main Settings menu? On top of it there is no logic in the way Apple groups the settings there.

As for the rest it's preference. I am all for files base centered system. It's easy for me to start from the file and open it then to think what I want to do, then to go the specific app (that is not easy to find when you have 70 apps like me) and open it. It takes more time.

I do see that the file base approach could be cumbersome to organize and work with.

I just counted and have 96 apps on my iPad. I have no trouble finding stuff in settings. IMO that’s a preference thing as well. I like that if I want to make changes to the settings for a particular app I can do it there, and it’s easy to find the app as, other than the Apple apps, everything is alphabetical. What makes no sense to me is that for several of my apps, there are settings both in the app and in the iPad settings. That fragmentation drives me crazy.

 

[secretk]

I just counted and have 96 apps on my iPad. I have no trouble finding stuff in settings. IMO that’s a preference thing as well. I like that if I want to make changes to the settings for a particular app I can do it there, and it’s easy to find the app as, other than the Apple apps, everything is alphabetical. What makes no sense to me is that for several of my apps, there are settings both in the app and in the iPad settings. That fragmentation drives me crazy.

You are right. It might be preference. Sorry this makes me crazy on iOS. On Windows I use Search to find settings. On iOS I need to use Internet because even Search cannot help. It's too cluttered. I am a fan of simplistic design. And having the apps in the Settings menu just contradicts with this. Honestly if I want to change an app setting I would go to the app. If I want to change system setting I would go to the Settings app. Having them both in one place is just weird for me. That's intuitive way for me.

I agree with you that the worst is when you can change some settings in the app and others in the system settings.

Any idea why it's done like that? Is it because Apple does not want to allow apps to make certain system changes?

An example how iOS settings just do not work for me. I read about multilingual support in iOS. The suggestion was to look for Dictionary settings. First of all finding this setting just by exploration is a mission impossible. So I used Search (after Internet of course) and the search found 7 different menus. None of them had anything to do with the page. It's about this.

 

[Mac 128]

Not that I entirely disagree, but the Surface keeps being brought up (as it should, being the subject of the thread).

For all of 2017, Microsoft sold 3 million Surface devices (including Pro). Apple sold a total of 43.8 million iPad units in 2017.

Apple needs to be careful that by adding complexity to the OS in order to attract a relatively small market, it will turn off a portion of its larger existing user base that choose iPad for ease of use.

Right, and what were the sales stats last year? I bet Surface sold less. 3MM is not an insubstantial number of devices. That's similar to early projections of the Apple Watch, which enthusiasts claimed as an unmitigated success. If that number is increasing, that suggests a likely erosion of the iPad market, which has to be terrifying for Apple.

I don't disagree that that they have to be careful, but right now, they seem to be teetering on the verge of making promises the iPad can't live up to, and it's not just potential surface and chromebook customers, Apple customers see those ads too, and with rising prices, being forced to make a decision between MacBook and iPadPro, or looking elsewhere. I mean it's got to cost Apple something when a customer gets their new iPadPro and Smart Keyboard Folio home and return it after they figure it out doesn't replace their "computer".

Regardless of motivation, Apple seems to have cobbled together what appears to be a stop-gap measure, that doesn't really address the needs of those they seem to be courting. But I also don't think it harms anything having options there the typical iPad user doesn't need, so long as it doesn't cost Apple anything. Assuming Apple supported a global trackpad/mouse pointer, how would that really affect anyone who didn't have a need for that? I'd probably never plug a mouse into my iPad, just as I've never plugged a keyboard into it. But if I did, I'd probably want a mouse, merely from an ergonomic perspective. That said, I've been on vacation where I left my MacBook at home, and wished I hadn't, or had a keyboard and mouse to use with my iPad -- it just would have made some things easier -- along with the ability to plug it into my TV for a bigger screen to work on. And really, all of that is a reasonable ask -- only the lack of a remote pointing device keeps that from being an acceptable solution for most in that common predicament.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Right, and what were the sales stats last year? I bet Surface sold less. 3MM is not an insubstantial number of devices. That's similar to early projections of the Apple Watch, which enthusiasts claimed as an unmitigated success. If that number is increasing, that suggests a likely erosion of the iPad market, which has to be terrifying for Apple.

Those are the sales stats for all of last year.

I don't understand the comparison between a year of Surface sales in 2017 (after 4 years) and Apple Watch with 4.2 million in its first quarter in 2015.

But if you want to compare, in all of 2017 all surface devices combined totaled 3 million units. Apple Watch shipments totaled 18 million in 2017.

The Surface business hasn't really gained any meaningful traction in 5 years. There is no reason to expect it will.

 

[rowspaxe]

Apple gave the developers the hardware necessary for pro-level work...isn't it up the App creators to produce pro level software?

the issue ios lack of finder, no trackpad/mouse support, limited external drive support, limited external
monitor support

Once Adobe releases Photoshop for the iPad next year, that's a huge step forward for creative professionals to leave the Mac behind.

Not likely.
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Maybe. There are definitely times editing text that I wish I had a trackpad to move the insertion point and select text. However, I think the bigger issue is that users have decades of muscle memory from using computers a certain way and developers have decades of design philosophy; the iPad challenges that.

And loses. ios is good enough for a secondary computer, but lack of mouse/keyboard is fatal

 

[IowaLynn]

When I use iOS to crop a screenshot, the photo frame "jumps" as it is edited. Not so on Android. And takes multiple attempts to get the area just right.

When I edit and crop in Photos, I never want the auto changes it insists upon and as always have to revert. Turn it off for Pete's sake, it's an annoyance and peeve.

Settings for apps when an app may be found in different areas, and not in the app itself is another... peeve.

If I hadn't used other platforms, was an Apple only customer I might not see - things can be different - and better. Think Different was marketing hype, good at the time, but, short lived.

Android Pie 9.0 is different on different vendor devices, which can take getting use to. Some give up in frustration I imagine and go back to the walled garden.

 

[Jedimindtrick]

I want a Surface Pro competitor as well. However, a desktop OS is very cumbersome in “tablet” mode.

I bought a surface pro, took it back the next day because it’s basically just a laptop IMO. I already own a MacBook Pro Touch Bar.

Apple needs to be the innovators they are and design the first true “Pro” tablet OS.

 

[sracer]

I want a Surface Pro competitor as well. However, a desktop OS is very cumbersome in “tablet” mode.

I bought a surface pro, took it back the next day because it’s basically just a laptop IMO. I already own a MacBook Pro Touch Bar.

Apple needs to be the innovators they are and design the first true “Pro” tablet OS.

If Google is successful in doing that with Chrome OS (especially with support for Android, Linux, and Windows apps) we may very well see Apple get a fire lit under its butt to respond. Chrome OS 70 took a giant step toward that... allowing 2-in-1 Chromebooks and Chrome OS tablets to look and feel more like tablets when operating in tablet mode.

 

[Knowimagination]

And loses. ios is good enough for a secondary computer, but lack of mouse/keyboard is fatal

For you....

 

[tromboneaholic]

And loses. ios is good enough for a secondary computer, but lack of mouse/keyboard is fatal

For me it's a strength.

 

[Mac 128]

Those are the sales stats for all of last year.

I don't understand the comparison between a year of Surface sales in 2017 (after 4 years) and Apple Watch with 4.2 million in its first quarter in 2015.

But if you want to compare, in all of 2017 all surface devices combined totaled 3 million units. Apple Watch shipments totaled 18 million in 2017.

The Surface business hasn't really gained any meaningful traction in 5 years. There is no reason to expect it will.

I'm discussing trends. What were the Surface sales for 2016? And 2015? 2014, 2013, 2012? 8 years is an awfully long time to support a device that isn't gaining any traction. Apple Watch shipments are fabrications. No one knows how many are sold. It's all an educated guess that varies widely depending on who's doing the guessing. As I recall it was widely estimated that first year AW sales were only around 10MM, which is a very small percentage of the iPhone market as a whole, which was required to support them. Obviously those sales appear to have steadily grown year after year, establishing a successful trend, but in way come close to matching the iPhone market for which they are required companions, nor the iPad market. Should Apple get out of that business? Of course not.

Again, 3 million units in a year is not a terrible number, and would be a very successful business for anyone. Apple only sold 19MM Macs in 2017 -- broken down by category, individual Mac models would have likely all sold less units than the Surface, which as I've read is primarily considered a notebook, with poor tablet functionality. Compared to even one PC vendor, HP sold almost 60MM computers, not to mention an industry which sold over 240MM PCs, not including Apple. The point being, if someone wanted to start basing the success of a notebook model based on the MacBook Air for instance, the results would likely be worse than the Surface. So does that mean it's not doing well and Apple should discontinue it? Of course not. The fact the Surface isn't selling as well as the iPad has less to do with the fact it's a hybrid, and more to do with the fact it's a poor tablet, and an expensive PC relative to the competition. It does not mean that adding a trackpad to the iPad is a bad idea.

 

[tromboneaholic]

I'm discussing trends. What were the Surface sales for 2016? And 2015? 2014, 2013, 2012? 8 years is an awfully long time to support a device that isn't gaining any traction.

 

[Mac 128]

Perfect. Thanks. So the surface has been on a steady increase in the last 4 years, while the iPad has been on a steady downward trajectory. So that's something Apple is likely paying attention to. Interesting that Mac sales seem steady. It would be interesting indeed to see the Mac models broken out, but even more interesting to see the iPad models broken out. How well are the Pros actually selling over the minis, and regular iPads? We'll likely never get those numbers though.

 

[tromboneaholic]

Perfect. Thanks. So the surface has been on a steady increase in the last 4 years, while the iPad has been on a steady downward trajectory. So that's something Apple is likely paying attention to. Interesting that Mac sales seem steady. It would be interesting indeed to see the Mac models broken out, but even more interesting to see the iPad models broken out. How well are the Pros actually selling over the minis, and regular iPads? We'll likely never get those numbers though.

A dismal Q1 and abysmal Q2 2014 skews the trend upward for Surface. After that it's relatively flat.

Apple Watch is a better example of a nascent product gaining traction as the growth driver in its category.

 

[richinaus]

A dismal Q1 and abysmal Q2 2014 skews the trend upward for Surface. After that it's relatively flat.

Apple Watch is a better example of a nascent product gaining traction as the growth driver in its category.

Thanks for posting all the figures and chart.

For all everyone on here [a vocal minority] asking for the iPad to be like the surface, if it was so great why don't the figures reverse? So many times I have looked at the surface devices thinking I should get one when I conclude that the MBP and an iPad Pro is a vastly better solution for my needs. The only thing I would like to see on the iPad is the flip stand which is the killer surface feature.

For those doing a lot of text editing etc, maybe the iPad is not the right solution for you as a 'laptop replacement'. I agree editing on the iPad is a total pain, but I rarely do it, so can accept it.

However the surface surely isn't a tablet replacement, and the mbp is a better laptop [thunderbolt, faster CPU, thinner and lighter and a proper charger].

 

[Mac 128]

A dismal Q1 and abysmal Q2 2014 skews the trend upward for Surface. After that it's relatively flat.

Apple Watch is a better example of a nascent product gaining traction as the growth driver in its category.

You see what you want I suppose. Even a small gain is a gain -- there 's nothing wrong with steady either. And I really don't know where these numbers are coming from or how accurate they are; certainly the Apple Watch numbers are ALL guesswork. Again, I'd like to see how it compares against individual MacBook products, or individual iPads -- it would be interesting indeed to see if a particular model had a similar curve. And the Macs in general would likely have similar performance, and sales figures for individual models -- yet nobody's calling them an abysmal failure.

Besides, all of this fails to take into account the fact that the iPad set the standard for tablets, and nobody, even relatively good Android devices, have been able to catch up -- even Android phone users likely own iPads. Comparing the Surface to the success of the iPad, and suggesting nobody wants it, or its features, based on the relative success discounts the fact that it is currently selling steadily year after year, despite its flaws, specifically as a tablet. Suggesting that is a primary reason not to add a trackpad to the iPad is at least flawed -- if that's indeed your suggestion.

iPad sales are dropping during the same period the Surface is rising and holding steady or edging up. Is it just a coincidence that Apple has started to market the iPad more like a Surface-type device? Maybe. I'm certainly not suggesting Apple compete directly with the Surface, as I have no great desire to see a touch interface added to the macOS (despite the fact they've added one in the form of the much maligned Touch Bar), but I certainly wouldn't balk at carrying a single tablet device that could instantly switch from iOS into service as a Mac simply by adding a keyboard and trackpad. And I would definitely like to see the same tools made available to me when attaching an external keyboard and display to an iPad, namely the ability to control the device with a remote pointer; and if nothing else, at least the text cursor to increase ergonomic workflow.

 

[OdT22]

Thanks for posting all the figures and chart.

For all everyone on here [a vocal minority] asking for the iPad to be like the surface, if it was so great why don't the figures reverse? So many times I have looked at the surface devices thinking I should get one when I conclude that the MBP and an iPad Pro is a vastly better solution for my needs. The only thing I would like to see on the iPad is the flip stand which is the killer surface feature.

For those doing a lot of text editing etc, maybe the iPad is not the right solution for you as a 'laptop replacement'. I agree editing on the iPad is a total pain, but I rarely do it, so can accept it.

However the surface surely isn't a tablet replacement, and the mbp is a better laptop [thunderbolt, faster CPU, thinner and lighter and a proper charger].

I think Apple marketed the iPad to a lot of people who never owned a computer before (seniors and kids), and that it contributed to most of the success of the iPad. You can't type? No problem. There's no keyboard! Can't understand file structure? We have you covered. No access to files! Can't understand tech? No worry, there isn't any. Now you can share/spam memes and photos with your kids or parents without you understanding how to do it!

And then a lot of the rest of us got sucked in, myself included. I owned 4 or 5 of them, with the expectation of a simplified OS that never happened. Wish I had skipped it in hindsight.

 

[tromboneaholic]

You see what you want I suppose. Even a small gain is a gain -- there 's nothing wrong with steady either. And I really don't know where these numbers are coming from or how accurate they are; certainly the Apple Watch numbers are ALL guesswork. Again, I'd like to see how it compares against individual MacBook products, or individual iPads -- it would be interesting indeed to see if a particular model had a similar curve. And the Macs in general would likely have similar performance, and sales figures for individual models -- yet nobody's calling them an abysmal failure.

Besides, all of this fails to take into account the fact that the iPad set the standard for tablets, and nobody, even relatively good Android devices, have been able to catch up -- even Android phone users likely own iPads. Comparing the Surface to the success of the iPad, and suggesting nobody wants it, or its features, based on the relative success discounts the fact that it is currently selling steadily year after year, despite its flaws, specifically as a tablet. Suggesting that is a primary reason not to add a trackpad to the iPad is at least flawed -- if that's indeed your suggestion.

iPad sales are dropping during the same period the Surface is rising and holding steady or edging up. Is it just a coincidence that Apple has started to market the iPad more like a Surface-type device? Maybe. I'm certainly not suggesting Apple compete directly with the Surface, as I have no great desire to see a touch interface added to the macOS (despite the fact they've added one in the form of the much maligned Touch Bar), but I certainly wouldn't balk at carrying a single tablet device that could instantly switch from iOS into service as a Mac simply by adding a keyboard and trackpad. And I would definitely like to see the same tools made available to me when attaching an external keyboard and display to an iPad, namely the ability to control the device with a remote pointer; and if nothing else, at least the text cursor to increase ergonomic workflow.

Again I can't disagree with you in concept, but some comments from others are basically asking for the iPad to be a laptop.

I do hope Apple will be "innovative" in continuing to make the iPad a tool for productivity and creativity even (or especially) if it leads to improved workflows than current laptops offer.

 

[secretk]

Interesting comparison:

.

Maybe people that want the iPad to compete with Surface have to think about what they want the iPad to have from the Surface device.

For me personally those are the two things I care about:

1. Being able to install Eclipse/Visual Studio on the machine
2. Being able to use Microsoft Office to its potential
3. Being able to use all of the Development tools for the browsers
4. Better user experience when it comes to text editting

 

[Booji]

Again I can't disagree with you in concept, but some comments from others are basically asking for the iPad to be a laptop.

I do hope Apple will be "innovative" in continuing to make the iPad a tool for productivity and creativity even (or especially) if it leads to improved workflows than current laptops offer.

This time, after many years I've jumped off the iPad upgrade bandwagon. Apple just pushed to too far on pricing of a device that continues to be an accessory to my needs. I got an SP 6, and so far I'm very happy with the promise of two devices in one. It gives me both the total functionality of a full computer, plus the ability to use tablet functionality for drawing and photo editing with the Pen.

The thing I am missing so far is LTE but it is not a deal-killer.

I'm hoping for the future when iOS will evolve to do the Pro tasks and workflows that are important to me.