Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[burgman]

Another reason I dislike Tesla - too many in my neighborhood - almost all of them are white - like clones.

Still patiently waiting on my 11 month ordered Ford Mustang Mach E to complement my Ford Lightning EV truck...

View attachment 2172561

Nice screen saver photo. My complaint about GM, Ford, and started by Mercedes is the subscription business model they are rolling out on features that normally are purchased with vehicles. Things like more horsepower, faster charging, heated seats etc. An increasing list if they get away with it. They can build one vehicle with everything on it then turn on and off options over the air because all are computerized and CAN bus controlled.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

You might check out Tesla sales in Germany since prices were cut. Now VW has cut prices in response.

The biggest customers for new cars in Europe are lease companies. I certainly won’t ever be buying a secondhand Tesla either. There’s much better built EV’s out there and the Polestar I drove recently was much more solid in regards to build quality. American cars haven’t got the best reputation in Europe as the offerings from Chrysler, Chevrolet, Dodge and Cadillac have all been rather crap and eventually discontinued.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

You might check out Tesla sales in Germany since prices were cut. Now VW has cut prices in response.

No matter how cheap Tesla get, I still won't buy one. I don't like a race to the bottom. But let's face it, Tesla was always the Toyota type car of the EV, it was just (and still is) way overpriced for what it delivers. It has no place to play in the luxury segments, it also doesn't play in the driver car segment if there was one, its a vehicle for those who aren't into cars in my opinion.

 

[millerj123]

I suppose we all have definitions of being fine, using "triggered" seriously? What year do you think it is?

Haha! Inhospitable for humans is still fine for the earth, just bad for us. Are you always this hostile? Kinda ugly online persona.

 

[Apple fanboy]

The biggest customers for new cars in Europe are lease companies. I certainly won’t ever be buying a secondhand Tesla either. There’s much better built EV’s out there and the Polestar I drove recently was much more solid in regards to build quality. American cars haven’t got the best reputation in Europe as the offerings from Chrysler, Chevrolet, Dodge and Cadillac have all been rather crap and eventually discontinued.

I’ve heard Tesla model 3 called the Mondao of EV’s. All driven by sales reps as company cars. But agree I’d not touch a second hand (or new!) one.

 

[JT2002TJ]

There is a lot of Telsa hate. Tesla still is the king of 2 the most important parts of the EV... The HV battery, and charging network. Tesla's HV batteries are still the most efficient for the price point. Access to the Tesla charging network at the Tesla rate (the newly opened up magic docks have a higher rate for non-Tesla vehicles). And as a new 2nd hand Tesla owner, with FSD and Acceleration Boost, I can tell you that if you think Tesla secondhand vehicles aren't good/reliable, that is fine, but in reality, they are.

I looked at all of the other EV's available, and ALL of them lacked when compared to Tesla or many reasons:
Rivian - Lack of service centers, 1 in the NY metroplex serving VA up to CT and west PA. Log waiting list.
Lucid - Same as above and the COST...
Hyundai - Good option, but when it comes to usable features not as good as Tesla (problems using the new Tesla chargers, but this came after I bought my Tesla)
MB/Audi/BMW - EV's are too expensive compared to Tesla M3/MY price (and not 2x the quality)
Ford - A good option, but still not as good, lots of complaints about the only efficient model the Mustang E

When you look at the total package, of efficiency, range, user interface, charging network it currently is impossible to beat the Model 3/Y, or even the S/X. Also, when it comes to usable features, Tesla is still the top. You can add a million features and say Tesla is lacking, but if you never use them, you are paying for useless features.

The reason you see an endless number of White Tesla vehicles is, paint colors cost money, currently white is the base 0 cost option. It used to be black. Tesla has done a great job of keeping production costs down with things like this.

Also, when it comes to the sustainability of companies, Rivian and Lucid, are at risk, while Tesla has set themselves up right. They entered the game at the right time, they set up the #1 charging network, and are not over leveraged. They are really restrictive about adding features, much like how Apple tends to be, only adding features that are used, vs a ton of features that aren't used, and simply do not give the best user experience. They really are an energy company, that happens to make vehicles.

Tesla has outsold MB/Audi/BWM in the US, with only 4 models.

EDIT: Also, typical service costs at Tesla tends to be way less than other places. Tesla, like all other manufacturers has revisions of parts. I had my 2019 at Tesla on Saturday for a few out of pocket things I wanted. I had the side repeater camera/indicators replaced to the latest revision, had the drivers side wiper arm replaced to the latest revision, and had the 12V battery replaced (still tested good, but it was the original and I plan to change it every 3-5 years). Total out of pocket cost $553.43 (parts, labor, and tax). Getting the 12V battery replaced on my Ram at the dealership would have cost about $500.

EDIT 2: There was a design flaw with the original side repeater cameras, that caused indicator light bleed into the camera optics. This is only noticeable at night, I do a lot of night driving, so I decided I wanted to do the upgrade. The drivers side wiper arm has a revision with where the windshield washer spray comes out, they added a set of nozzles half way down the arm, which significantly improves the spray pattern and cleaning.

 

[burgman]

No matter how cheap Tesla get, I still won't buy one. I don't like a race to the bottom. But let's face it, Tesla was always the Toyota type car of the EV, it was just (and still is) way overpriced for what it delivers. It has no place to play in the luxury segments, it also doesn't play in the driver car segment if there was one, its a vehicle for those who aren't into cars in my opinion.

Have you ever driven a AWD performance, or a Plaid? I'm not a cheerleader for Tesla, can't stand the cult that has flocked to the man. I do acknowledge what they have done in all segments of solar energy, especially commercial side storage. "not being into cars" is as subjective as fashion choices to me. Given Toyota's marketplace reputation worldwide how one can use that as a slap is laughable.
Nürburgring videos:
Taycan:

Plaid:

Record runs all cars: https://www.nuerburgring.de/info/nuerburgring/records

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Have you ever driven a AWD performance, or a Plaid? I'm not a cheerleader for Tesla, can't stand the cult that has flocked to the man. I do acknowledge what they have done in all segments of solar energy, especially commercial side storage. "not being into cars" is as subjective as fashion choices to me. Given Toyota's marketplace reputation worldwide how one can use that as a slap is laughable.
Nürburgring videos:
Taycan:

Plaid:

Record runs all cars: https://www.nuerburgring.de/info/nuerburgring/records

Yup, there are many fast cars. Don't make them good cars to me. And when you get into the price bracket of the Plaid you are talking about the exception in the Tesla line up. The majority is Model 3/Y cheap lease/salary sacrifice cars. And yes Toyota got a reputation of cheap reliable cars, great if that is what you want. But luxury, comfort and a nice experience it isn't.

Tesla had market advantage, they still have it in some parts of the word, it is rapidly declining in many others. Their charging network has been open for a while now to others, at first I was excited but in reality in the last 20K miles I've never had a need to actually use it. It's like a master mind mind trick where people think that network is required and the best there is. In reality it is not, and more expensive.

 

[Apple fanboy]

There is a lot of Telsa hate. Tesla still is the king of 2 the most important parts of the EV... The HV battery, and charging network. Tesla's HV batteries are still the most efficient for the price point. Access to the Tesla charging network at the Tesla rate (the newly opened up magic docks have a higher rate for non-Tesla vehicles). And as a new 2nd hand Tesla owner, with FSD and Acceleration Boost, I can tell you that if you think Tesla secondhand vehicles aren't good/reliable, that is fine, but in reality, they are.

I looked at all of the other EV's available, and ALL of them lacked when compared to Tesla or many reasons:
Rivian - Lack of service centers, 1 in the NY metroplex serving VA up to CT and west PA. Log waiting list.
Lucid - Same as above and the COST...
Hyundai - Good option, but when it comes to usable features not as good as Tesla (problems using the new Tesla chargers, but this came after I bought my Tesla)
MB/Audi/BMW - EV's are too expensive compared to Tesla M3/MY price (and not 2x the quality)
Ford - A good option, but still not as good, lots of complaints about the only efficient model the Mustang E

When you look at the total package, of efficiency, range, user interface, charging network it currently is impossible to beat the Model 3/Y, or even the S/X. Also, when it comes to usable features, Tesla is still the top. You can add a million features and say Tesla is lacking, but if you never use them, you are paying for useless features.

The reason you see an endless number of White Tesla vehicles is, paint colors cost money, currently white is the base 0 cost option. It used to be black. Tesla has done a great job of keeping production costs down with things like this.

Also, when it comes to the sustainability of companies, Rivian and Lucid, are at risk, while Tesla has set themselves up right. They entered the game at the right time, they set up the #1 charging network, and are not over leveraged. They are really restrictive about adding features, much like how Apple tends to be, only adding features that are used, vs a ton of features that aren't used, and simply do not give the best user experience. They really are an energy company, that happens to make vehicles.

Tesla has outsold MB/Audi/BWM in the US, with only 4 models.

Not a hater of Tesla. They just aren’t for me. But your view is very US centric. Over here they cost more, we have better alternative charges and different tastes.
I’d never buy one until the design evolves. They are too big and heavy. The interior is definitely not a space I want to be in. The lack of physical buttons is also a concern.

 

[panjandrum]

At this point no company makes an electric car I would actually want. When they do, I would absolutely love to get one, but I think it's still going to be a very long time. I prefer light, nimble, small and "underpowered." My ideal cars are classic rear-engined Porsches, the Alpine A110, the Miata, Many Lotus models, etc. I do amateur motorsports and long ago learned that "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." That's just as true when it comes to street driving. If you love the driving experience do you want to experience 3 seconds of "I can mash a pedal and my computer will do the rest and I'll be going the speed limit and WOW I'M SO GREAT!" - or, do you want to drive a car where you (no exaggeration) have to plan your ramp-corner entry precisely in order to maintain your momentum and thus get even close to hitting highway speed for the merge? Where you have to learn to draft to overtake in any reasonable timeframe? Where you have to run up and down through your manual gearbox just in normal around-town driving? Where you are beating cars with 4x (or more) your horsepower because your car can *gasp* go around corners? Every time I drive my cars I'm having a great time; engaged with the process and enjoying it. So I'm waiting for an electric car with small motors, just enough torque and horsepower to get the job done and nothing more, and that is as light as possible and built around the philosophy of nimble, nimble, nimble. The current design philosophy for electrics just offers nothing at all that even comes close to interesting me last time I checked. (I've also witnessed the effects of all that mass at motorsports events. Just watch a Tesla - they handle amazing well for what they are, but the moment the driver passes the driver/car capability and they start to slide? They just turn into uncontrollable slide monsters. They slide forever and forever and forever because that mass does NOT want to stop once grip is broken / control is lost. Seriously dangerous to bystanders IMHO.)

 

[Apple fanboy]

At this point no company makes an electric car I would actually want. When they do, I would absolutely love to get one, but I think it's still going to be a very long time. I prefer light, nimble, small and "underpowered." My ideal cars are classic rear-engined Porsches, the Alpine A110, the Miata, Many Lotus models, etc. I do amateur motorsports and long ago learned that "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." That's as true, or even more true, when it comes to street driving. If you love the driving experience do you want to experience 3 seconds of "I can mash a pedal and my computer will do the rest and I'll be going the speed limit and WOW I'M SO GREAT!" - or, do you want to drive a car where you (no exaggeration) have to plan your ramp-corner entry precisely in order to maintain your momentum and thus get even close to hitting highway speed for the merge? Where you have to learn to draft to overtake in any reasonable timeframe? Where you have to run up and down through your manual gearbox just in normal around-town driving? Where you are beating cars with 4x (or more) your horsepower because your car can *gasp* go around corners? So I'm waiting for an electric car with small motors, just enough torque and horsepower to get the job done and nothing more, and that is as light as possible and built around the philosophy of nimble, nimble, nimble. The current design philosophy for electrics just offer nothing at all that even comes close to interesting me last time I checked.

Try some fast corners in an BMW i3. Handles very well with its low centre of gravity and lightweight body. I’d love to take it for a track day.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

At this point no company makes an electric car I would actually want. When they do, I would absolutely love to get one, but I think it's still going to be a very long time. I prefer light, nimble, small and "underpowered." My ideal cars are classic rear-engined Porsches, the Alpine A110, the Miata, Many Lotus models, etc. I do amateur motorsports and long ago learned that "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow." That's as true, or even more true, when it comes to street driving. If you love the driving experience do you want to experience 3 seconds of "I can mash a pedal and my computer will do the rest and I'll be going the speed limit and WOW I'M SO GREAT!" - or, do you want to drive a car where you (no exaggeration) have to plan your ramp-corner entry precisely in order to maintain your momentum and thus get even close to hitting highway speed for the merge? Where you have to learn to draft to overtake in any reasonable timeframe? Where you have to run up and down through your manual gearbox just in normal around-town driving? Where you are beating cars with 4x (or more) your horsepower because your car can *gasp* go around corners? So I'm waiting for an electric car with small motors, just enough torque and horsepower to get the job done and nothing more, and that is as light as possible and built around the philosophy of nimble, nimble, nimble. The current design philosophy for electrics just offer nothing at all that even comes close to interesting me last time I checked.

I like all that as well; but not in a daily driver. That is just too tiring to drive like that all the time and on the public road. Hence I've got multiple cars The general public wouldn't want to drive like that either. But there is nothing stopping you from creating (converting) such a car yourself, well other than ability and financial funds most likely.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Try some fast corners in an BMW i3. Handles very well with its low centre of gravity and lightweight body. I’d love to take it for a track day.

LOL No, just no. Doesn't even come close to what he is talking about...

 

[JT2002TJ]

Not a hater of Tesla. They just aren’t for me. But your view is very US centric. Over here they cost more, we have better alternative charges and different tastes.
I’d never buy one until the design evolves. They are too big and heavy. The interior is definitely not a space I want to be in. The lack of physical buttons is also a concern.

Yeah, I am aware of the cost difference in different parts of the world. And how we only have fewer options of the German vehicles (I grew up overseas). I still think at the price were talking about, in the class vehicle (size), even in your part of the world the price still stands. You opted to go for a smaller class vehicle that Tesla doesn't make. But if you do an apples-to-apples comparison (M3/MY vs midsized BMW/Audi/MB EV) I stand by what I said.

I agree that the charging infrastructure is different outside of the US, with CCS chargers and even Tesla has CCS charging ports (with in the US they do not). So, the charging infrastructure point I made is not necessarily true outside the US.

 

[burgman]

Not a hater of Tesla. They just aren’t for me. But your view is very US centric. Over here they cost more, we have better alternative charges and different tastes.
I’d never buy one until the design evolves. They are too big and heavy. The interior is definitely not a space I want to be in. The lack of physical buttons is also a concern.

US centric you say? Hmm

Yeah, I am aware of the cost difference in different parts of the world. And how we only have fewer options of the German vehicles (I grew up overseas). I still think at the price were talking about, in the class vehicle (size), even in your part of the world the price still stands. You opted to go for a smaller class vehicle that Tesla doesn't make. But if you do an apples-to-apples comparison (M3/MY vs midsized BMW/Audi/MB EV) I stand by what I said.

I agree that the charging infrastructure is different outside of the US, with CCS chargers and even Tesla has CCS charging ports (with in the US they do not). So, the charging infrastructure point I made is not necessarily true outside the US.

US centric??​

Best-Selling Electric Cars in the UK in 2022​

Tesla dominates 2022’s top 10 list, pushing the Kia e-Niro and Volkswagen ID.3 down a place from 2021, whilst the Renault Zoe and Hyundai Kona fail to make the list this time, making space for Polestar and BMW.

Top 10 Best-Selling EVs:​

1. Tesla Model Y (35,551)
2. Tesla Model 3 (19,071)
3. Kia e-Niro (11,197)
4. Volkswagen ID.3 (9,832)
5. Nissan Leaf (9,178)
6. MINI Electric (7,425)
7. Polestar 2 (7,345)
8. MG5 EV (7,030)
9. BMW i4 (6,699)
10. Audi Q4 e-tron (6,594)

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

US centric you say? Hmm

US centric??​

Best-Selling Electric Cars in the UK in 2022​

Tesla dominates 2022’s top 10 list, pushing the Kia e-Niro and Volkswagen ID.3 down a place from 2021, whilst the Renault Zoe and Hyundai Kona fail to make the list this time, making space for Polestar and BMW.

Top 10 Best-Selling EVs:​

1. Tesla Model Y (35,551)
2. Tesla Model 3 (19,071)
3. Kia e-Niro (11,197)
4. Volkswagen ID.3 (9,832)
5. Nissan Leaf (9,178)
6. MINI Electric (7,425)
7. Polestar 2 (7,345)
8. MG5 EV (7,030)
9. BMW i4 (6,699)
10. Audi Q4 e-tron (6,594)

It’s still a small market whether Tesla top it or not though. A lot of Tesla’s, Kia’s and Polestars are lease/company cars due to tax incentives. Pretty much any supplier or sales rep who turns up in an EV these days seems to have one of those three. The EV segment is growing fast but latest figures suggest there are around 690k on British roads out of 32.7m registered cars. I think we’ll know more about how popular these brands are when a higher number of motorists start making the step over to electric. Unfortunately most new EV’s are £35k+ and very few people buy a car that costs more than their annual salary for instance. In fact consumer advice groups advise you pay no more than 20% of your annual salary on car costs. Standby for lots more people leasing or taking out longterm loans unless EV manufacturers workout how to compete in the sub £30k bracket.

 

[burgman]

It’s still a small market whether Tesla top it or not though. A lot of Tesla’s, Kia’s and Polestars are lease/company cars due to tax incentives. Pretty much any supplier or sales rep who turns up in an EV these days seems to have one of those three. The EV segment is growing fast but latest figures suggest there are around 690k on British roads out of 32.7m registered cars. I think we’ll know more about how popular these brands are when a higher number of motorists start making the step over to electric. Unfortunately most new EV’s are £35k+ and very few people buy a car that costs more than their annual salary for instance. In fact consumer advice groups advise you pay no more than 20% of your annual salary on car costs. Standby for lots more people leasing or taking out longterm loans unless EV manufacturers workout how to compete in the sub £30k bracket.

Just stop, the numbers are the numbers worldwide and are easy to find, you and others have narrative😫, and it is what it is. Never had someone say a lease isn't a sold car, but hey it's the internet.

 

[Vref]

After watching the plaid fight the corners at nuremberg, I’ll pass

I will say their straight line is impressive, but stopping and especially cornering is decades behind the ICE sports cars

There was a guy on the JRE that LS swapped his Tesla, said from going electric to gas the car lost 1,000lbs!


That being said, for a around the airport vehicle I like electric golf carts

 

[PauloSera]

AntiEV delusion I see much of it.

Weird way to spell realism.

I'm not anti-EV in any way. I am just realistic about it, which EV hounds are not.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Just stop, the numbers are the numbers worldwide and are easy to find, you and others have narrative, and it is what it is. Never had someone say a lease isn't a sold car, but hey it's the internet.

I clearly unintentionally touched a nerve there I think with what I thought was a respectful response to an interesting discussion.

 

[JT2002TJ]

After watching the plaid fight the corners at nuremberg, I’ll pass

I will say their straight line is impressive, but stopping and especially cornering is decades behind the ICE sports cars

There was a guy on the JRE that LS swapped his Tesla, said from going electric to gas the car lost 1,000lbs!


That being said, for a around the airport vehicle I like electric golf carts

Going to disagree, and call you out on this...

You have to remember that a MS plaid, is a full-sized car. Imagine a 7-series, A8, or S500, that is the Model 7's size. This is a true 5 seater, that is up there with Porsche's specialty 911's. The Model S Plaid isn't a sports car. It's a full-size car that is eff'ing fast.

If this Wiki is true, the MSP with all its cornering decades behind the ICS sports cars beat the F90 M5, and fell right behind the RS3. Look at the long list of ICE sports cars that are slower on the most well-known track that demonstrates a vehicles ability to handle.

Seems like the sports cars are decades behind the MSP...

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JT2002TJ]

I clearly unintentionally touched a nerve there I think with what I thought was a respectful response to an interesting discussion.

Sales are sales. If leasing companies weren't acutely able to lease the cars, they wouldn't be buying them. Also, one cannot say, Tesla only has the sales numbers because of incentives, the incentives apply to other EV companies as well.

So, I stand by what I said, Tesla's have the highest real-world value in the EV space they are competing against. To say they are too expensive for what you get, is not true. One cannot say a M3 costs too much then say, my EV Golf was cheaper. They are not the same class vehicle. If you want to compare compact vehicles, Tesla loses because none of their vehicles fit that class. But M3/MY compared to mid-size vehicles, I do not know of any EV that is better all-around for the price.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Sales are sales. If leasing companies weren't acutely able to lease the cars, they wouldn't be buying them. Also, one cannot say, Tesla only has the sales numbers because of incentives, the incentives apply to other EV companies as well.

So, I stand by what I said, Tesla's have the highest real-world value in the EV space they are competing against. To say they are too expensive for what you get, is not true. One cannot say a M3 costs too much then say, my EV Golf was cheaper. They are not the same class vehicle. If you want to compare compact vehicles, Tesla loses because none of their vehicles fit that class. But M3/MY compared to mid-size vehicles, I do not know of any EV that is better all-around for the price.

For me Tesla is cheap built car with a higher than mid range price tag. I would take an electric VW Golf over a Tesla Model 3 any day of the week and no, they are not the same class of vehicle by any stretch. Personally I think as the options for EV’s increase over the next 7 years, the Tesla novelty will wear off in Europe. I can’t say the same about America as I have no idea what market trends are there in Tesla’s home market. Right now, the main viable options for affordable EV’s seem to come from Kia, Nissan, Hyundai and MG. I can’t say I’d be rushing out to buy any of those either if I am honest. Still a lot of work to do by manufacturers, the clock is ticking.

 

[Vref]

Going to disagree, and call you out on this...

You have to remember that a MS plaid, is a full-sized car. Imagine a 7-series, A8, or S500, that is the Model 7's size. This is a true 5 seater, that is up there with Porsche's specialty 911's. The Model S Plaid isn't a sports car. It's a full-size car that is eff'ing fast.

If this Wiki is true, the MSP with all its cornering decades behind the ICS sports cars beat the F90 M5, and fell right behind the RS3. Look at the long list of ICE sports cars that are slower on the most well-known track that demonstrates a vehicles ability to handle.

Seems like the sports cars are decades behind the MSP...

List of Nürburgring Nordschleife lap times - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So I just drilled down on lap times, there are cars approaching 2 decades old that are faster than any of the electrics

The only electric cars come somewhat close beat the ICE on a road coarse are like single seat cars

Plus look at the cannonball run, EVs need their own class as they can’t compete with ICE, same with a 24hr lemans

I like tech, but unless we have have a quantum leap in battery tech, electric is still a bit of a novelty outside of people who live in “15minute cities”, or those who are content with just straight line drag racing type speed IMHO

 

[JT2002TJ]

For me Tesla is cheap built car with a higher than mid range price tag. I would take an electric VW Golf over a Tesla Model 3 any day of the week and no, they are not the same class of vehicle by any stretch. Personally I think as the options for EV’s increase over the next 7 years, the Tesla novelty will wear off in Europe. I can’t say the same about America as I have no idea what market trends are there in Tesla’s home market. Right now, the main viable options for affordable EV’s seem to come from Kia, Nissan, Hyundai and MG. I can’t say I’d be rushing out to buy any of those either if I am honest. Still a lot of work to do by manufacturers, the clock is ticking.

Fair enough. But in the space that Tesla sits, they still are the king. There are other spaces out there. But to me, the most important thing about an EV, is the battery, and right now Telsa rules that regardless of class.