Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[BigMcGuire]

Part 2:

We got the Tesla cuz of the advantages it gave us, and the 3.8 0-60 was intriguing to me. I'm also a huge battery hobbyist so having a big battery as a vehicle is something I've always wanted.

That was more the factor than anything.

We've put 30k miles on the thing since we've had it for a year. So I imagine that's a lot less polluting than a civic driving that same mileage in Southern CA Traffic over a year. It is amazing how the eMPG doubles when in traffic. I went from HATING slamming on my brakes to enjoying the regen sounds/indications when in traffic, lol (the times I went to my wife's work with her).

I think there's a lot of negatives for an EV outside of this environment that we're in (Southern CA - works for us). (Example: Midwest or any environment with snow, lots of kids, needing to haul anything, no access to a garage, dirt roads, etc.)

 

[Apple fanboy]

If truth was to be told, the great majority of the consumers buy automobiles and everything else one can imagine based on wants and needs. Affordability plays a role, of course. I doubt that anybody is going to worry more about the planet than oneself, or even saving the planet ahead of one's family. My words may sound mean, and even hurtful to some, but these are truths that deep inside one can't deny.

I think times are changing. For older people that maybe true, but many young people have a different attitude.
I agree most people buy what they want or suits them. But I also think there is a growing number of people who consider the environment a lot more in their choices. That can only be a good thing.
The people that spent decades denying global warming was real have a lot to answer for.
We can all do more. We all need to do more.

 

[Tagbert]

If truth was to be told, the great majority of the consumers buy automobiles and everything else one can imagine based on wants and needs. Affordability plays a role, of course. I doubt that anybody is going to worry more about the planet than oneself, or even saving the planet ahead of one's family. My words may sound mean, and even hurtful to some, but these are truths that deep inside one can't deny.

I would say that impact to the environment is one of the factors that make me choose an EV over an ICE. There are other factors, of course, but that is a major differentiator. You don't have to worry about "the planet" more than yourself to factor in a reduction in harm. I am will to spend more money or have some things be less convenient if it results on less impact on the climate. There are of course other features of EVs that are just objectively better and that is just icing on the cake.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Oh yeah, most people don't have a budget to afford a $60k+ car in the first place, let alone because of saving the earth. A lot of people can't be bothered to throw trash into a trash bin that's 15 feet away...

My wife and I went EV because her work offered free charging. It was an opportunity to get something fast AND save $300/mo in gas and get her access to the carpool lane. Our insurance went down ~$150/mo weirdly enough (from 2 cars to 1).

It has been amazing the year we've had it, but it works for us because our special situation. We got a used 2018 Tesla Model 3 for about the same cost of our 2 Civics. Of course, now, one can get the same car for a lot cheaper (~$10k less) than we're paying for it thanks to the used car market drop, lol.

I work 100% remote, so what we did won't work for MOST people out there - especially if I still had to drive.

Yes, agree with you. The EV you purchased serves your and your family's needs, and by selling the Civics iy opened the door for buying an EV. A lot of working people, at least the wise ones, don't take on large car payments. My wife an I are older now and are doing well financially, but even so we don't buy vehicles that cost over $20,000 (we buy used) and maintain them.

 

[mittencuh]

I have been wanting to upgrade my gasoline-powered car to an EV(Electic Vehicle) car due to the many benefits that are present.
EVs produce zero emissions while driving, making them much cleaner for the environment compared to gasoline-powered cars. By driving an EV, you can reduce your carbon footprint and help combat climate change.
Although EVs can have a higher upfront cost than gasoline-powered cars, they can be more cost-effective in the long run due to lower fuel costs and maintenance expenses. Additionally, some governments offer tax incentives or rebates for EV purchases.
Many EVs have quick acceleration and a quiet, smooth ride. They may also require less maintenance since they have fewer moving parts than traditional cars.
With more charging stations popping up in public areas and at homes, it can be easier to charge an EV than find a gas station. Additionally, some EVs have a longer range than in the past, making them more practical for longer road trips.

These are the few advantages I came about when learning more about EV's.

Ok ChatGPT.

 

[mittencuh]

Yes, agree with you. The EV you purchased serves your and your family's needs, and by selling the Civics iy opened the door for buying an EV. A lot of working people, at least the wise ones, don't take on large car payments. My wife an I are older now and are doing well financially, but even so we don't buy vehicles that cost over $20,000 (we buy used) and maintain them.

Decent used cars for $20,000 are a thing of the past. I had to buy a car due to divorce last year, best/most practical I could find for the money was a 4 year old Golf just over $20,000. New car transactions are nearly averaging $50k now.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Decent used cars for $20,000 are a thing of the past. I had to buy a car due to divorce last year, best/most practical I could find for the money was a 4 year old Golf just over $20,000. New car transactions are nearly averaging $50k now.

It’s something that will have to come back though as it’s unrealistic to expect everybody to be able to afford more than £20k for a used car. The average price for a secondhand car here is £17,650 and that is based on what people pay annually in the market. Those on minimum wage aren’t going to buy £40k-£60k cars and this is something manufacturers need to take onboard as we move to electric, which I am sure they are. It would be economic suicide to not make cars that are affordable to the lowest earners and is something that will need to be managed. If we want to meet this 2030 deadline, the industry has a lot to do to make cars more affordable.

 

[Apple fanboy]

It’s something that will have to come back though as it’s unrealistic to expect everybody to be able to afford more than £20k for a used car. The average price for a secondhand car here is £17,650 and that is based on what people pay annually in the market. Those on minimum wage aren’t going to buy £40k-£60k cars and this is something manufacturers need to take onboard as we move to electric, which I am sure they are. It would be economic suicide to not make cars that are affordable to the lowest earners and is something that will need to be managed. If we want to meet this 2030 deadline, the industry has a lot to do to make cars more affordable.

There are still chip shortages, so it’s only natural that car manufacturers are likely to focus on selling the higher end, higher margin cars. The only thing that will force them to change tack, is when they are making more cars than we are buying. There are some cheaper options. But by the time you spec the trim level you want it pushes the price up significantly.
I think there is more swing between the base price of a car model and the top end than there used to be.
But specifying heat pumps, all wheel drive, extended battery on top of the usual leather seats, electric this that and the other, adds a lot of £££.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

There are still chip shortages, so it’s only natural that car manufacturers are likely to focus on selling the higher end, higher margin cars. The only thing that will force them to change tack, is when they are making more cars than we are buying. There are some cheaper options. But by the time you spec the trim level you want it pushes the price up significantly.
I think there is more swing between the base price of a car model and the top end than there used to be.
But specifying heat pumps, all wheel drive, extended battery on top of the usual leather seats, electric this that and the other, adds a lot of £££.

Which reinforces my concerns that we are going to struggle to adapt by 2030. There’s millions of drivers out there that don’t spend more than £4k- £8k on a used car yet the expectation is beyond 2030, these same people are going to be buying used EV’s that are either 10 years old and needing expensive maintenance, or spend several times what they can afford on a car. This chip shortage is holding car prices artificially high and for too long as we need depreciation to take its natural course in order for used cars to remain affordable.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Which reinforces my concerns that we are going to struggle to adapt by 2030. There’s millions of drivers out there that don’t spend more than £4k- £8k on a used car yet the expectation is beyond 2030, these same people are going to be buying used EV’s that are either 10 years old and needing expensive maintenance, or spend several times what they can afford on a car. This chip shortage is holding car prices artificially high and for too long as we need depreciation to take its natural course in order for used cars to remain affordable.

You’ll still be able to buy second hand cars in 2030. It’s only new ICE cars that will stop being sold then. Not sure if that will push second hand car prices higher or if ICE vehicles will be lower by then. I guess it depends on the price of petrol and road tax etc for ICE vehicles by then.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

You’ll still be able to buy second hand cars in 2030. It’s only new ICE cars that will stop being sold then. Not sure if that will push second hand car prices higher or if ICE vehicles will be lower by then. I guess it depends on the price of petrol and road tax etc for ICE vehicles by then.

You know I know what the 2030 directive concerns from previous conversations btw, plus you know I am a British motorist. I’m sure there will be measures in place to squeeze anybody unfortunate enough not to be able to afford an EV by then. Fuel will be past £2 a litre, annual fee (can’t use the word as against the forum rules) will get a hike and most towns and cities will have stricter congestion zones. All very good things as long as EV’s are affordable by then. Personally I think I will be driving an ICE vehicle until there is no other option. There’s also a couple of cars I want to own before we go electric.

 

[Apple fanboy]

You know I know what the 2030 directive concerns from previous conversations btw, plus you know I am a British motorist. I’m sure there will be measures in place to squeeze anybody unfortunate enough not to be able to afford an EV by then. Fuel will be past £2 a litre, annual fee (can’t use the word as against the forum rules) will get a hike and most towns and cities will have stricter congestion zones. All very good things as long as EV’s are affordable by then. Personally I think I will be driving an ICE vehicle until there is no other option. There’s also a couple of cars I want to own before we go electric.

I'm sure you do. The fact that my EV will cost more in road tax in 2024 than my old Golf was costing me is beyond me. But there you go. It is what it is. If you look at the EV choices 7 years ago compared to now, there are so many more choices. I think in the next 7 that will be so many more at a range of budgets.
The biggest problem at the moment is the obsession with range. If you want a long range car then it either has to have a large battery (expensive), be light weight (also expensive) or ideally both.
When more people consider a car that does less range they will become more affordable. But for that to happen the charging infrastructure needs to improve (which it is every day).

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I'm sure you do. The fact that my EV will cost more in road tax in 2024 than my old Golf was costing me is beyond me. But there you go. It is what it is. If you look at the EV choices 7 years ago compared to now, there are so many more choices. I think in the next 7 that will be so many more at a range of budgets.
The biggest problem at the moment is the obsession with range. If you want a long range car then it either has to have a large battery (expensive), be light weight (also expensive) or ideally both.
When more people consider a car that does less range they will become more affordable. But for that to happen the charging infrastructure needs to improve (which it is every day).

I don’t think it’s an obsession but more a concern. People don’t want to adopt something that is less convenient. I’ve seen it discussed on this thread where EV owners suggest we will just have to accept that longer journeys will take longer in future but it’s ok because we can just take longer breaks. For me that is less than ideal and I don’t want to go from a car with a 600 mile range down to one that does just 150-200 miles if driven conservatively. I hope in the next 7 years this issue will be resolved to be honest. Another issue at the moment which is purely superficial is the appearance of EV’s generally (not all). If you look at the affordable options from the likes of Kia, MG and Nissan, they are all pretty ugly. When you consider right now you can get an Audi, BMW or a Merc secondhand for a similar price, it’s difficult further convincing people to switch. That’s before the upfront fee for installing a charger at home. There is still a lot to address before the 32M other motorists join the 600k who have already switched. Progress is being made but slower than I’d like to see.

The emissions tax being higher on EV’s is absurd but not unexpected. It was sold to us initially as being greener and cheaper but that money has to be recovered from somewhere. Yet another hurdle people will consider.

 

[QCassidy352]

I’ve never driven a Tesla. When I was looking at buying an EV it didn’t make the shortlist. The design isn’t for me. Too big and I hate the interior.

I’ve driven vehicles with touchscreen like my Golf. But that had physical buttons as well. If I wanted to use the Sat Nav which was pure touchscreen it was only safe to do so if I stopped.
I can’t find the link now, but there was an article recently from one of the big car makers saying they were moving away from touchscreen only interfaces.
Obviously BMW have the I-drive which is better than a touchscreen having used both, but most of the stuff you use is on a physical button.
It’s just a really bad idea in a moving vehicle.

Agree to disagree. it works great. I’d really encourage you to try a Tesla (with an open mind!) some time. I think you’ll “get it” almost instantly.

My data would be actually trying to use a touchscreen to adjust the heating while driving along. It’s dangerous and distracting. You can get points and a £1k fine for touching a smartphone mounted to your dashboard yet it’s legal to scroll through the menus on a silly iPad style interface built into the car? Using a phone while driving has plenty of data to suggest it causes accidents which is why it is banned so apply that to a tablet in a car.

Just keep the infotainment stuff on a cars touchscreen and keep basic functions like heating, fans, AC as physical mechanical buttons. There’s already talk in Europe of going back to this as it’s contradicting laws for phone use behind the wheel.

I’m glad to have a handful of physical controls on my Tesla, like music control, autopilot engagement and spacing, wipers, high beams (the latter two are also auto though), etc. If I were designing the car, I’d probably add physical controls for the side mirrors and temp, but that’s it. There’s really nothing else I need to access while in motion that’s buried in the touchscreen UI.

On the other hand, my wife’s 2021 Prius has a touchscreen AND a mini screen AND a nightmarish array of physical buttons. It’s WAY harder and more distracting to find what you need than on a Tesla.

I guess it’s a question of where is the right balance. I’ve driven mainstream ICE cars most of my life, and within a couple of months of getting a model 3, it was clear to me that Tesla gets it way closer to right than most legacy automakers. Not perfect, but way closer.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Agree to disagree. it works great. I’d really encourage you to try a Tesla (with an open mind!) some time. I think you’ll “get it” almost instantly.

I’m glad to have a handful of physical controls on my Tesla, like music control, autopilot engagement and spacing, wipers, high beams (the latter two are also auto though), etc. If I were designing the car, I’d probably add physical controls for the side mirrors and temp, but that’s it. There’s really nothing else I need to access while in motion that’s buried in the touchscreen UI.

On the other hand, my wife’s 2021 Prius has a touchscreen AND a mini screen AND a nightmarish array of physical buttons. It’s WAY harder and more distracting to find what you need than on a Tesla.

I guess it’s a question of where is the right balance. I’ve driven mainstream ICE cars most of my life, and within a couple of months of getting a model 3, it was clear to me that Tesla gets it way closer to right than most legacy automakers. Not perfect, but way closer.

I’m not going to be in the market for another car for 3-5 years hopefully. But unless Tesla produce something smaller it won’t make the cut. 99% of my journeys just have me. The other 1% are only with Mrs AFB.
That’s before other design considerations.

 

[VictorTango777]

I remain convinced that car touchscreen user interface engineers whether it is Tesla, Apple CarPlay, etc, don't bother to test in actual vehicles while sitting in the drivers seat, with the screen at arm's length, while the car is moving. They assume that just because the UI is readable while sitting in front of their big desktop monitors, it is also readable on a much smaller screen viewed at arm's length. Most if not all car screens don't have a way to increase the text size.

I also see the same tiny, difficult to read text in:

Insurance cards - The graphic designer sitting in front of a big desktop monitor with magnified view did not bother to inspect a printed sample of the card.

Restaurants that display their menus on TV screens - Again, the designer did not bother to test readability from the same distance that a customer would be viewing from.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I remain convinced that car touchscreen user interface engineers whether it is Tesla, Apple CarPlay, etc, don't bother to test in actual vehicles while sitting in the drivers seat, with the screen at arm's length, while the car is moving. They assume that just because the UI is readable while sitting in front of their big desktop monitors, it is also readable on a much smaller screen viewed at arm's length. Most if not all car screens don't have a way to increase the text size.

I also see the same tiny, difficult to read text in:

Insurance cards - The graphic designer sitting in front of a big desktop monitor with magnified view did not bother to inspect a printed sample of the card.

Restaurants that display their menus on TV screens - Again, the designer did not bother to test readability from the same distance that a customer would be viewing from.

Restaurants that display menu’s on TV screens? Is that even a thing? I know I don’t eat out very often, but I’ve never seen that.
Small print menus in dimly lit restaurants definitely an issue.

Hopefully the fashion for touchscreens in cars will fade quickly enough. Put them in the back for the kids. Give the driver a way to adjust things with a nice safe knob, slider or switch.

 

[diamond.g]

I remain convinced that car touchscreen user interface engineers whether it is Tesla, Apple CarPlay, etc, don't bother to test in actual vehicles while sitting in the drivers seat, with the screen at arm's length, while the car is moving. They assume that just because the UI is readable while sitting in front of their big desktop monitors, it is also readable on a much smaller screen viewed at arm's length. Most if not all car screens don't have a way to increase the text size.

I also see the same tiny, difficult to read text in:

Insurance cards - The graphic designer sitting in front of a big desktop monitor with magnified view did not bother to inspect a printed sample of the card.

Restaurants that display their menus on TV screens - Again, the designer did not bother to test readability from the same distance that a customer would be viewing from.

Upcoming update for Tesla (2023.12) is going to allow users to change the text size on the display.

I guess there is a difference, though I am not sure if it is enough of one.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Upcoming update for Tesla (2023.12) is going to allow users to change the text size on the display.
I guess there is a difference, though I am not sure if it is enough of one.

I was just going to mention this. Tesla is about to implement one of, if not the first option to change font sizes in a cars UI. This is an important step as it will force others to do the same, and make the Tesla user experience even better. This is more for the important information needed while driving, not so the driver can spend more time in the menus.

The way of the future still is ways to control the UI without taking your hands off the wheel, which can only be accomplished by voice commands (otherwise you would need a TON of steering wheel buttons). Amazon had to start somewhere with Echo devices, they were able to do a fantastic job with voice interpretation, and integration. I use my Echo to control almost all my smart devices at home. I would expect nothing less from my vehicle.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I was just going to mention this. Tesla is about to implement one of, if not the first option to change font sizes in a cars UI. This is an important step as it will force others to do the same, and make the Tesla user experience even better. This is more for the important information needed while driving, not so the driver can spend more time in the menus.

The way of the future still is ways to control the UI without taking your hands off the wheel, which can only be accomplished by voice commands (otherwise you would need a TON of steering wheel buttons). Amazon had to start somewhere with Echo devices, they were able to do a fantastic job with voice interpretation, and integration. I use my Echo to control almost all my smart devices at home. I would expect nothing less from my vehicle.

Voice controls will only ever be an extra form of functionalty and never a replacement for physical controls applied by a users fingers though. Lets hope Apple aren't involved with any automakers considering how dismal Siri has been over the past 12 years too. VW announced late last year that some touchscreen controls would be coming back to physical buttons in newer cars due to pressure from the motoring press and studies now confirming touchscreens are more distracting than actual dedicated buttons. I'd expect other manufacturers to follow for European brands.

As previously said here, we get heavy penalties for touching our phones whilst driving, so the touchscreen element does contradict the law somewhat. I can scroll through 4 menu screens to change the radio or turn the heater down, but I will get 3 points on my license and a £1k fine for accepting a route change on Google Maps if the screen I touch is my iPhone. The lines are blurred indeed.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I was just going to mention this. Tesla is about to implement one of, if not the first option to change font sizes in a cars UI. This is an important step as it will force others to do the same, and make the Tesla user experience even better. This is more for the important information needed while driving, not so the driver can spend more time in the menus.

The way of the future still is ways to control the UI without taking your hands off the wheel, which can only be accomplished by voice commands (otherwise you would need a TON of steering wheel buttons). Amazon had to start somewhere with Echo devices, they were able to do a fantastic job with voice interpretation, and integration. I use my Echo to control almost all my smart devices at home. I would expect nothing less from my vehicle.

Any car that can only be controlled by voice sounds like a terrible idea. Definitely wouldn’t be one I’d consider.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Voice controls will only ever be an extra form of functionalty and never a replacement for physical controls applied by a users fingers though. Lets hope Apple aren't involved with any automakers considering how dismal Siri has been over the past 12 years too. VW announced late last year that some touchscreen controls would be coming back to physical buttons in newer cars due to pressure from the motoring press and studies now confirming touchscreens are more distracting than actual dedicated buttons. I'd expect other manufacturers to follow for European brands.

As previously said here, we get heavy penalties for touching our phones whilst driving, so the touchscreen element does contradict the law somewhat. I can scroll through 4 menu screens to change the radio or turn the heater down, but I will get 3 points on my license and a £1k fine for accepting a route change on Google Maps if the screen I touch is my iPhone. The lines are blurred indeed.

Glad VW can see sense. I wonder if it’s cheaper to produce a car with no physical buttons and that’s the attraction for car makers? Hopefully more will follow and either keep physical buttons or start putting them back in.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I have no doubt that eventually all manufactures will end up like the Model 3/Y, with as minimal physical buttons as possible, using voice commands or some newer technology that will keep the drivers' hands and eyes on the road. I am not saying it will be voice, it may be some tech that isn't out right now, but the days of physical buttons are limited.

The individual's preference for having buttons is related to age and previous driving experience. Today's youth that has only lived in a world of automation and voice activation will have a different perspective on physical buttons...

Another example is autonomous driving, if it is properly implemented, and fully used, why would someone need a physical indicator stalk? (Assuming successful implementation).

Eventually, you will have to pay more in insurance when you buy a vehicle that you have the ability to take over and manually drive, as it will be safer to use automation.

So far in my life, I have heard the following driving components complained about:

Seatbelts (When I was a child, there were many older vehicles on the road that didn't have 3-point belts)
2 point to 3 point seat belt change (I remember when people use to put the shoulder strap behind them)
Automatic Headlights
AC
Power Windows
Power Door locks
Automatic Transmissions (they were TERRIBILE back in the day, today with DSC they are better than manual)
Cruise Control
Auto Wipers
Airbags
Backup cameras
Blind spot/Cross traffic monitoring
Lane Departure Warnings
Fatigued Driver Monitoring
Auto Trans Park when driver door is open and seat belt removed

Every single one of these I distinctly remember hearing the elder generations complaining how they weren't needed.

EVs are an opportunity, as the newest vehicles on the road, to make a major shift and change the way someone drives. I have not missed a single physical button in the 3 months I have owned my Tesla, and I drive 3 hours a day. I own 2 other vehicles with plenty of physical buttons that I never use (I do use the AC temp and speed dials in my Ram, because I didn't get the auto AC in my model)...

 

[diamond.g]

Glad VW can see sense. I wonder if it’s cheaper to produce a car with no physical buttons and that’s the attraction for car makers? Hopefully more will follow and either keep physical buttons or start putting them back in.

It is cheaper, less wires to run (each button needs a wire) and no need for the button themselves, plus whatever ECU the buttons are connected to likely isn't needed (not sure how many are directly connected to the main ECU).

I've noticed cars having duplicate controls as well (typically touchscreen and buttons to do the same thing). Which means there has to be duplicate programing made (right?).

 

[Apple fanboy]

I have no doubt that eventually all manufactures will end up like the Model 3/Y, with as minimal physical buttons as possible, using voice commands or some newer technology that will keep the drivers' hands and eyes on the road. I am not saying it will be voice, it may be some tech that isn't out right now, but the days of physical buttons are limited.

The individual's preference for having buttons is related to age and previous driving experience. Today's youth that has only lived in a world of automation and voice activation will have a different perspective on physical buttons...

Another example is autonomous driving, if it is properly implemented, and fully used, why would someone need a physical indicator stalk? (Assuming successful implementation).

Eventually, you will have to pay more in insurance when you buy a vehicle that you have the ability to take over and manually drive, as it will be safer to use automation.

So far in my life, I have heard the following driving components complained about:

Seatbelts (When I was a child, there were many older vehicles on the road that didn't have 3-point belts)
2 point to 3 point seat belt change (I remember when people use to put the shoulder strap behind them)
Automatic Headlights
AC
Power Windows
Power Door locks
Automatic Transmissions (they were TERRIBILE back in the day, today with DSC they are better than manual)
Cruise Control
Auto Wipers
Airbags
Backup cameras
Blind spot/Cross traffic monitoring
Lane Departure Warnings
Fatigued Driver Monitoring
Auto Trans Park when driver door is open and seat belt removed

Every single one of these I distinctly remember hearing the elder generations complaining how they weren't needed.

EVs are an opportunity, as the newest vehicles on the road, to make a major shift and change the way someone drives. I have not missed a single physical button in the 3 months I have owned my Tesla, and I drive 3 hours a day. I own 2 other vehicles with plenty of physical buttons that I never use (I do use the AC temp and speed dials in my Ram, because I didn't get the auto AC in my model)...

You must be very old to remember cars without power windows and seatbelts.

I think you are in the minority on this one. Big difference between power windows and a touchscreen to put the wipers on!