Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[AlaskaMoose]

I think your anti EV stance is coming through again.

No-one having a car and walking everywhere is clearly the greenest option. However most people aren’t going to be able (or willing) to do that.

The next best option is mass public transport. But again this is only an option in larger city’s and even then has its limitations.

So we are left with the option of buying and owning cars. Now no car is maintenance free, but an EV uses substantially less parts for maintenance. They don’t have exhaust systems that fail or oil that needs changing every year.
Suspension is a tie.
Brakes tend to wear a lot less due to regenerative braking. Tyres tend to wear more.
So where does that leave us?
Fuel. An ICE vehicle will continue to burn fossil fuels for every mile it is driven. An EV just uses electricity. Some of that energy comes from renewable sources (this varies a lot from country to country of course). In the UK 40% came from renewable sources in 2022. Add in that the majority of EV’s charge at night so is probably more than the 40% during those low use hours.

So clearly it’s better to use a car that isn’t burning fuel each day.

1. Nothing to do with being anti or pro EV. All vehicles need all those parts I mentioned above. The only difference relates to tailpipe emissions, in this case ICE vehicles which continue emitting hazardous gasses and solid particles.

About:
a. Mufflers. I don't disagree with you that mufflers won't fail. I imagine that it depends of vehicular quality. For example I have a 2001 Silverado truck with an odometer reading of 216,000 miles, and I have never had to replace the muffler. You are correct about oil and filter replacements too. However EV's do have oil and coolant. The drive units have gears that are immersed in oil, and the battery have coolants. Just like ICE vehicles they have windshield wash fluids.

b. The brakes in ICE vehicles do wear sooner than most EV brakes, but this is by average. The brake-pads and shoes last quite a long time in some vehicles depending on how the driver uses the brakes of the vehicle. For example, I drove very large trucks and became quite proficient with manual-transmission driving. But lots of drivers of automatic transmission vehicles tend to wear the brakes sooner, specially those who ride the brake pedal and brake with the left foot while having the right foot on the accelerator.

2. You are also correct that ICE vehicles require more maintenance, but that is not what I referred to in my previous posts. What I was referring to is as follows: Both types of vehicles have windshields, cabin air filters, wipers, exterior and interior lights, tires, wheel, bearings, chassis, body panels, instrument clusters, seats of various kinds, steering wheels, carpeted interiors, seatbelts, airbags, windshield washer, windows, door handles, stick shifts, brake pedals, and so on. Just because it is an EV it does not mean that some of those parts will never malfunction nor wear. This happens to all automobiles, regardless of kind. Again, the main difference relating to "saving the planet" is that an ICE vehicle mitts hazardous chemicals through its life, while the EV doesn't.

So my point still stands: if one "were to save the planet," one could walk, or maybe ride a pedaled bicycle. The rest is just bunk, simply because of our need to live comfortable lives we choose to drive vehicles, fly from place to place in aircraft the burn thousand of gallons of fuel per fly, and on and on (trains, ships,.....).

People buy vehicles bases on needs, wants, and affordability, not based on saving the planet.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

A single one, no, but all of them, absolutely yes. It's not the only thing necessary, but it's a reasonably significant part. Gasoline will always pollute; electricity can be made entirely from renewables. Even if you live somewhere that uses a lot of fossil fuels to generate electricity now, that can and will change. It's pure denialism to claim otherwise.

Perhaps, but parts and services continue throughout the vehicle lifespan, regardless of vehicle type. Now, if the vehicle would be built like an iPhone, then we would buy a new one and return the old one to the automaker. However most drivers, I assume, drive their vehicles past the manufacturer's warranty, so sooner of later some parts and services will take place. No vehicle is made to be flawless till its end.

 

[Tagbert]

Perhaps, but parts and services continue throughout the vehicle lifespan, regardless of vehicle type. Now, if the vehicle would be built like a cellphone, then we would buy a new one and return the old one to the automaker. However most drivers, I assume, drive their vehicles past the manufacturer's warrant. At least I do.

The energy and CO2 production of that maintenance is is dwarfed by what it takes to power a vehicle. Especially an ICE.

 

[MmkLucario]

The energy and CO2 production of that maintenance is is dwarfed by what it takes to power a vehicle. Especially an ICE.

Well, you could say that powering the EV doesn’t take a lot of energy compared to producing it.

 

[Apple fanboy]

1. Nothing to do with being anti or pro EV. All vehicles need all those parts I mentioned above. The only difference relates to tailpipe emissions, in this case ICE vehicles which continue emitting hazardous gasses and solid particles.

About:
a. Mufflers. I don't disagree with you that mufflers won't fail. I imagine that it depends of vehicular quality. For example I have a 2001 Silverado truck with an odometer reading of 216,000 miles, and I have never had to replace the muffler. You are correct about oil and filter replacements too. However EV's do have oil and coolant. The drive units have gears that are immersed in oil, and the battery have coolants. Just like ICE vehicles they have windshield wash fluids.

b. The brakes in ICE vehicles do wear sooner than most EV brakes, but this is by average. The brake-pads and shoes last quite a long time in some vehicles depending on how the driver uses the brakes of the vehicle. For example, I drove very large trucks and became quite proficient with manual-transmission driving. But lots of drivers of automatic transmission vehicles tend to wear the brakes sooner, specially those who ride the brake pedal and brake with the left foot while having the right foot on the accelerator.

2. You are also correct that ICE vehicles require more maintenance, but that is not what I referred to in my previous posts. What I was referring to is as follows: Both types of vehicles have windshields, cabin air filters, wipers, exterior and interior lights, tires, wheel, bearings, chassis, body panels, instrument clusters, seats of various kinds, steering wheels, carpeted interiors, seatbelts, airbags, windshield washer, windows, door handles, stick shifts, brake pedals, and so on. Just because it is an EV it does not mean that some of those parts will never malfunction nor wear. This happens to all automobiles, regardless of kind. Again, the main difference relating to "saving the planet" is that an ICE vehicle mitts hazardous chemicals through its life, while the EV doesn't.

So my point still stands: if one "were to save the planet," one could walk, or maybe ride a pedaled bicycle. The rest is just bunk, simply because of our need to live comfortable lives we choose to drive vehicles, fly from place to place in aircraft the burn thousand of gallons of fuel per fly, and on and on (trains, ships,.....).

People buy vehicles bases on needs, wants, and affordability, not based on saving the planet.

You do. I purchased a green car because I care about the planet. Yes there are other factors in my choice, but I will never buy another ICE vehicle. It’s yesterday’s technology.

 

[Apple fanboy]

You keep talking about touchscreens being less safe (much less safe!) than buttons in a car. I’m curious if you have any data to back that up, such as data showing more crashes, or just more distracted-driver crashes, in cars with fewer buttons/a primarily touchscreen interface? Because I have not seen such data, and it’s neither my experience nor intuitively true.

I can see how it would be a safety issue to navigate through a bunch of submenus, but flicking your eyes to the right for a split second to see a button on the screen? How is that any different than glancing at turn by turn navigation, which everyone constantly does in all kinds of cars?

Apologies if you’ve stated this elsewhere in the thread, but how much time have you spent driving a Tesla or other touchscreen-based vehicle? Because your comments are just like what I used to say until I had one.

I’ve never driven a Tesla. When I was looking at buying an EV it didn’t make the shortlist. The design isn’t for me. Too big and I hate the interior.

I’ve driven vehicles with touchscreen like my Golf. But that had physical buttons as well. If I wanted to use the Sat Nav which was pure touchscreen it was only safe to do so if I stopped.
I can’t find the link now, but there was an article recently from one of the big car makers saying they were moving away from touchscreen only interfaces.
Obviously BMW have the I-drive which is better than a touchscreen having used both, but most of the stuff you use is on a physical button.
It’s just a really bad idea in a moving vehicle.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

You keep talking about touchscreens being less safe (much less safe!) than buttons in a car. I’m curious if you have any data to back that up, such as data showing more crashes, or just more distracted-driver crashes, in cars with fewer buttons/a primarily touchscreen interface? Because I have not seen such data, and it’s neither my experience nor intuitively true.

I can see how it would be a safety issue to navigate through a bunch of submenus, but flicking your eyes to the right for a split second to see a button on the screen? How is that any different than glancing at turn by turn navigation, which everyone constantly does in all kinds of cars?

Apologies if you’ve stated this elsewhere in the thread, but how much time have you spent driving a Tesla or other touchscreen-based vehicle? Because your comments are just like what I used to say until I had one.

My data would be actually trying to use a touchscreen to adjust the heating while driving along. It’s dangerous and distracting. You can get points and a £1k fine for touching a smartphone mounted to your dashboard yet it’s legal to scroll through the menus on a silly iPad style interface built into the car? Using a phone while driving has plenty of data to suggest it causes accidents which is why it is banned so apply that to a tablet in a car.

Just keep the infotainment stuff on a cars touchscreen and keep basic functions like heating, fans, AC as physical mechanical buttons. There’s already talk in Europe of going back to this as it’s contradicting laws for phone use behind the wheel.

 

[Apple fanboy]

My data would be actually trying to use a touchscreen to adjust the heating while driving along. It’s dangerous and distracting. You can get points and a £1k fine for touching a smartphone mounted to your dashboard yet it’s legal to scroll through the menus on a silly iPad style interface built into the car? Using a phone while driving has plenty of data to suggest it causes accidents which is why it is banned so apply that to a tablet in a car.

Just keep the infotainment stuff on a cars touchscreen and keep basic functions like heating, fans, AC as physical mechanical buttons. There’s already talk in Europe of going back to this as it’s contradicting laws for phone use behind the wheel.

Couldn’t agree more. It’s just common sense.

 

[JT2002TJ]

My data would be actually trying to use a touchscreen to adjust the heating while driving along. It’s dangerous and distracting. You can get points and a £1k fine for touching a smartphone mounted to your dashboard yet it’s legal to scroll through the menus on a silly iPad style interface built into the car? Using a phone while driving has plenty of data to suggest it causes accidents which is why it is banned so apply that to a tablet in a car.

Just keep the infotainment stuff on a cars touchscreen and keep basic functions like heating, fans, AC as physical mechanical buttons. There’s already talk in Europe of going back to this as it’s contradicting laws for phone use behind the wheel.

As said many times, when it comes to Teslas (and most newer EVs), you can use voice to control all functions of almost everything in the car. Voice is going to be safer than any physical non-steering wheel button.

Not to you specifically, but in general, you cannot compare touch screens in the past to EV UIs. There is a MAJOR jump in tech between ICE and EV UI systems. My 2015 Ram has the 8.4" U-Connect system are many buttons that are touch screen only, but my Tesla, I have never had to take my eyes off the road for the UI, and if I do need to take my eyes off the road for any reason, I turn on Autopilot/FSD (I usually have it on anyways).

I can say "Set temperature to 74 degrees" and the car will do it, if it was at 68 degrees before and you had physical buttons that you had to use (without voice commands) you would have to reach over, press temp up button 6 times, while looking at the temperature screen to see if you actually land on 74 degrees. Once you have successfully enabled a working voice command system for temperature, there no longer is a need for physical buttons, so removing them actually makes the system less complex, and safer as the driver will be less likely to take their eyes off the road and use voice commands.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I’ll buy an EV when they offer better range and I can get a decent spec car on the secondhand market. Not interested in paying more than £25k on any car, so I guess i’ll carry on driving a diesel until the car market gets a little more realistic about supplying the average motorist with a decent sized, affordable family car. Right now I just observe with interest and enjoy the experiences from a few people, not all, but those I value opinions from

I know you are UK based, so it is different, but here in the US the cheapest brand new Tesla model 3 is basically £25k.

I wanted FSD a $15k option, so I opted to buy used (I have never bought new).

 

[cyb3rdud3]

As said many times, when it comes to Teslas (and most newer EVs), you can use voice to control all functions of almost everything in the car. Voice is going to be safer than any physical non-steering wheel button.

Not to you specifically, but in general, you cannot compare touch screens in the past to EV UIs. There is a MAJOR jump in tech between ICE and EV UI systems. My 2015 Ram has the 8.4" U-Connect system are many buttons that are touch screen only, but my Tesla, I have never had to take my eyes off the road for the UI, and if I do need to take my eyes off the road for any reason, I turn on Autopilot/FSD (I usually have it on anyways).

I can say "Set temperature to 74 degrees" and the car will do it, if it was at 68 degrees before and you had physical buttons that you had to use (without voice commands) you would have to reach over, press temp up button 6 times, while looking at the temperature screen to see if you actually land on 74 degrees. Once you have successfully enabled a working voice command system for temperature, there no longer is a need for physical buttons, so removing them actually makes the system less complex, and safer as the driver will be less likely to take their eyes off the road and use voice commands.

Sorry just don't agree. Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar/Land Rover, Audi been doing that for many years. Even before EV became mainstream available.

Sure you can use voice control, some people enjoy that. I can't stand it, it is disruptive when I'm having conversation with my family in the car, it is also inappropriate when my driver were to use that when I'm being chauffeured. And yes, voice recognition is a lot better nowadays especially with natural language processing, but it still can't deal with the variety of accents around the world, not even the native English speaking countries so no hope for many others. I also seriously dislike voice assistants around the home/office. No need for everyone to listen in to my conversation. Then again I also think its rude for people to have public conversations on speaker phone.

I know it all sounds very negative, but I think it is a classless very new world, rude way of controlling things. Things that can easily and discretely controlled by a knob

 

[SalisburySam]

TL;DR - the oft-cited voice commands are a handy control adjunct in some if not most situations. But it is not a total replacement for other more basic control methods, at least for me.

The common “solution” to cumbersome (and too easily-changed through software updates) touch screen controls is usually to admonish the driver to use voice commands. And yes, they tend to be a useful backup to actually touching something, screen or button. But they are not a panacea for every situation:

• The biggest downside is that they may not work. Most require a fairly decent cellular signal to work at all since the voice decoding is not local to the car but done in the cloud on a server farm somewhere remote. No or poor cellular service means no voice commands. And here in the US, at least my part of it, weak and no cellular service areas are pretty common despite increasing numbers of new tower installations. At some point this issue should go away, but that is not today.
• Commands differ from car to car. To activate and moderate my seat heater is a different voice command in my Tesla Model 3 from doing so in my Ioniq5. Same for opening the charging port doors.
• Ambient noise (passengers talking, barking pets, etc.) affect the accuracy of the vehicle’s understanding of the driver’s command. Yes, you can ask everyone to be quiet, wait for the dog to get over its hissy fit, and repeat the command. That’s always an option. Yeah, great.

There is just nothing like a simple single-action control (e.g., a button/dial/stalk) that doesn’t move its location, has tactile feedback, does one thing flawlessly, is shaped for human fingers and motions, can be used with or without gloves, and doesn’t have to be watched such that muscle memory can be used to do something desired. Even designers of physical buttons can get this wrong. The fastest, easiest, most accurate way to control volume is a rotating dial. But designers have thought it “cool” (“kewl?”) to use alternatives like sliders, volume up and down buttons requiring multiple taps as on my Nissan LEAF, partially-exposed wheels as mounted on my Tesla’s steering wheel, and so on. Thankfully, my Ioniq5 has delivered both a voice command option as well as the much-welcomed push button on-off switch and its accompanying rotating volume control ring. Old school? Yeah. Works better than anything else? Yeah. Love it.

 

[Apple fanboy]

As said many times, when it comes to Teslas (and most newer EVs), you can use voice to control all functions of almost everything in the car. Voice is going to be safer than any physical non-steering wheel button.

Not to you specifically, but in general, you cannot compare touch screens in the past to EV UIs. There is a MAJOR jump in tech between ICE and EV UI systems. My 2015 Ram has the 8.4" U-Connect system are many buttons that are touch screen only, but my Tesla, I have never had to take my eyes off the road for the UI, and if I do need to take my eyes off the road for any reason, I turn on Autopilot/FSD (I usually have it on anyways).

I can say "Set temperature to 74 degrees" and the car will do it, if it was at 68 degrees before and you had physical buttons that you had to use (without voice commands) you would have to reach over, press temp up button 6 times, while looking at the temperature screen to see if you actually land on 74 degrees. Once you have successfully enabled a working voice command system for temperature, there no longer is a need for physical buttons, so removing them actually makes the system less complex, and safer as the driver will be less likely to take their eyes off the road and use voice commands.

Yes you said it many times. It’s just a lot of us don’t agree. Voice has its place for sure, but what about deaf drivers or people with other speech issues? Or if I want to adjust the heat whilst talking to someone? A physical button takes a second to turn.
Most cars have a dial you turn for heat. Just turn it counter clockwise to get cooler, clockwise to get warmer.
It doesn’t need to hit 74 degrees. You just turn it up or down.
Although to be honest I use the heated seats more as they use less battery.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Sorry just don't agree. Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar/Land Rover, Audi been doing that for many years. Even before EV became mainstream available.

Sure you can use voice control, some people enjoy that. I can't stand it, it is disruptive when I'm having conversation with my family in the car, it is also inappropriate when my driver were to use that when I'm being chauffeured. And yes, voice recognition is a lot better nowadays especially with natural language processing, but it still can't deal with the variety of accents around the world, not even the native English speaking countries so no hope for many others. I also seriously dislike voice assistants around the home/office. No need for everyone to listen in to my conversation. Then again I also think its rude for people to have public conversations on speaker phone.

I know it all sounds very negative, but I think it is a classless very new world, rude way of controlling things. Things that can easily and discretely controlled by a knob

Yes, they have been doing touch screen and voice commands for many years. But it is not the same as the new generation of EVs. Voice commands at least with every EV I looked into are worlds ahead, on par with Amazon/Google

Voice commands are local to the vehicle for Tesla (I cannot say that I know what it is for other companies).

 

[JT2002TJ]

Yes you said it many times. It’s just a lot of us don’t agree. Voice has its place for sure, but what about deaf drivers or people with other speech issues? Or if I want to adjust the heat whilst talking to someone? A physical button takes a second to turn.
Most cars have a dial you turn for heat. Just turn it counter clockwise to get cooler, clockwise to get warmer.
It doesn’t need to hit 74 degrees. You just turn it up or down.
Although to be honest I use the heated seats more as they use less battery.

I was only saying the voice command for heat because it was brought up earlier. I hardly have to use voice commands or hit buttons. Almost everything is fully automated with my Tesla. So, although the removal of the buttons are mitigated by voice commands, Tesla has solved the issue by automating the user experience.

You do have to spend time setting up your profile (which is now cloud based, so when I get into even a loaner all my settings travel with me), but once setup, you aren't actually needing to make changes. I set my AC to auto and my desired temperature, I set the seat warmers to auto, and they automatically come on and adjust as needed.

So, unless you have spent time with a Tesla, it would be unfair to say that their lack of buttons are an issue, because unless you have setup your profile and regularly use the vehicle, you end up with a false sense of needing to interact with buttons.

I have no idea how well BMW has executed the i3. But I am assuming since they are older, they are not on par with even the newer BWM EVs. A major benefit to Tesla is, all these new features that come out, are available to ALL Tesla models, even the old ones (as long as they are not hardware dependent).

EDIT: you do have a valid point about those who are unable to speak, and cyb3rdud3 does have a valid point about accents. The point still is, since everything is automated, you CAN use voice commands for missing buttons, but in reality, once your profile is setup, you likely don't need to use it as much as you think.

 

[ericgtr12]

I don't mind the Tesla so much but my next car will have tactile buttons, the touchscreen is just too cumbersome to use and feels less safe. I'm still all in on electric though, I can't see going back.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I don't mind the Tesla so much but my next car will have tactile buttons, the touchscreen is just too cumbersome to use and feels less safe. I'm still all in on electric though, I can't see going back.

It’s hard to find an EV driver who wants to go back to an ICE vehicle. Yet so many ICE drivers tell us EV’s won’t work. Strange isn’t it?

 

[Apple fanboy]

I was only saying the voice command for heat because it was brought up earlier. I hardly have to use voice commands or hit buttons. Almost everything is fully automated with my Tesla. So, although the removal of the buttons are mitigated by voice commands, Tesla has solved the issue by automating the user experience.

You do have to spend time setting up your profile (with is now cloud based, so when I get into even a loaner all my settings travel with me), but once setup, you aren't actually needing to make changes. I set my AC to auto and my desired temperature, I set the seat warmers to auto, and they automatically come on and adjust as needed.

So, unless you have spent time with a Tesla, it would be unfair to say that their lack of buttons are an issue, because unless you have setup your profile and regularly use the vehicle, you end up with a false sense of needing to interact with buttons.

I have no idea how well BMW has executed the i3. But I am assuming since they are older, they are not on par with even the newer BWM EVs. A major benefit to Tesla is, all these new features that come out, are available to ALL Tesla models, even the old ones (as long as they are not hardware dependent).

EDIT: you do have a valid point about those who are unable to speak, and cyb3rdud3 does have a valid point about accents. The point still is, since everything is automated, you CAN use voice commands for missing buttons, but in reality, once your profile is setup, you likely don't need to use it as much as you think.

The software updates are good on the Tesla. But don’t you have to pay a subscription for them? That is something many car companies are doing that I am not keen on.

 

[diamond.g]

The software updates are good on the Tesla. But don’t you have to pay a subscription for them? That is something many car companies are doing that I am not keen on.

So far, no, you do not have to pay for software updates.

EDIT: as of right now there are only 2 subscriptions: FSD Beta (299/mo) and the Connectivity Package (9.99/mo)

 

[JT2002TJ]

The software updates are good on the Tesla. But don’t you have to pay a subscription for them? That is something many car companies are doing that I am not keen on.

No. Updates are free. The premium service is only for satellite view maps, Realtime traffic, and streaming data.

Updates can only be downloaded on Wifi, and are free to everyone. I have heard that mandatory updates can be pushed to everyone OTA and will install without the user's input.

 

[Apple fanboy]

No. Updates are free. The premium service is only for maps, Realtime traffic, and streaming data.

Updates can only be downloaded on Wifi, and are free to everyone. I have heard that mandatory updates can be pushed to everyone OTA and will install without the user's input.

Thats good then.

 

[Apple fanboy]

So far, no, you do not have to pay for software updates.

EDIT: as of right now there are only 2 subscriptions: FSD Beta (299/mo) and the Connectivity Package (9.99/mo)

So far. Expect that to change at some point.

 

[JT2002TJ]

So far. Expect that to change at some point.

I don't expect it to change... Just like how Apple doesn't charge. Now I do expect at some point some vehicles will be excluded from updates to drop off legacy hardware.

 

[diamond.g]

So far. Expect that to change at some point.

Historically older MCUs have not gotten as many updates, I would expect that to continue with the trasition to MCU3 from MCU2.

I am not sure Tesla will ever charge for OTA (they use them for recalls as well which are supposed to be no cost to the end user). I am curious to see how GM deals with updates after the complementary period is over (WRT SuperCruise).

 

[SalisburySam]

Voice commands are local to the vehicle for Tesla…

Do you have a source for that? Not being snarky…genuine question. This is the antithesis of voice commands in almost any other situation and I don’t think it’s true. If I’m in an area without cellular service, I have no voice commands in my Model 3. Same for a friend in her Model S and another in both their Model X and Y. We have lots of weak service areas locally so easily tested. Voice commands are enabled in Tesla’s Standard Connectivity (one does not need to subscribe to the Premium Upgrade Package @ $10/mo.). Standard Connectivity is of unlimited duration for cars ordered before July 20, 2022. It only lasts for eight years in cars ordered after. Tesla also mentions that when Standard Connectivity expires, so will voice commands among other things. This all points to voice commands being dependent upon decoding outside the vehicle, not within it.