Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[Apple fanboy]

If I apply averages to my country then the costs for EV’s are still way over the affordability scale. The average annual salary here is £26k ($35,960) and the average selling price for a car is £13k ($17,980). This is why I say manufacturers have a serious amount of work to do to make sure EV’s are affordable by 2030. The average family are not going to pay £32k for a new EV and even 7 year old Tesla’s right now are over £20k. I couldn’t get by with some of the tiny EV’s coming out by Nissan, Renault and Peugeot right now as they are impractical.

Over the next 5 years we need a boom in releases and adoption if the 2030 mandate is achievable. I think the government will be forced to move this personally.

Absolutely. Even if you factor in the cheaper running costs, it’s just not practical right now. If you drive high mileage and are often having to go to the London congestion zone, maybe. But for me I need the prices to be comparable to an equivalent ICE car for me to look at switching.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I agree, I would say the average EV right now isn’t really in the realm for the majority of consumers in terms of being affordable. In the United States, President Biden mentioned a few months back, that he is advocating for auto manufacturers to ramp up EV production and have more slated models available by the end of this decade.

I live in a big city, so I see EV’s quite frequently, but in certain parts of North America, they’re not ready for EV’s, because the infrastructure doesn’t support it.

But more than anything, I think more over the price point, I see people still saying to themselves, ‘Why would I need/want an EV’? So their mindset hasn’t even been programmed to start considering an EV, regardless of the lacking infrastructure, being that if you live in California for example, EV’s are virtually everywhere (Also, they have significant tax incentives). So really it’s interesting to see how different it is depending on where you live.

Absolutely, there’s a lot of obstacles to overcome in the next 8 years and it still feels like the beta stage. We need over a £1T spent on our national grid and opinions need to change. Having recently changed my car I found looking at EV’s was rather slim in terms of options. To get one I can afford with the spec I am used to, I would need an extra £20k. I’d have to get an entry level EV the size of a VW Polo for the costs they are now. In the US I think it’ll be decades to convince remote residents that EV’s are worthwhile. I’m happy to move to new technology, but costs need to come down massively.

 

[pshufd]

Tesla builds first store on tribal land. I didn't realize that they couldn't build stores and repair shops because of state laws. So they are getting around this in NM with a store on tribal land.

 

[44267547]

At this point, I’m waiting for the Tesla Cybertruck dual motor. I’ve actually always wanted a truck, but backed out in place of a sports car or something of that nature. The Cybertruck will offer me the versatility, ride height and being that I live in a ‘snow state’, I think it will do really well with the machined roll stainless against road salt, and at least I won’t have to deal with road chips with with no paint.

As for the Model 3, I think there’s good and bad like every car, I just want something that’s ‘different’ this time around. And if Tesla gets the Cybertruck right the first time, especially with the current delays, I think this be really huge in the North American market, given EV incentives are growing, the infrastructure is expanding and the truck segment market is about 68% of the share of where I live.

Thanks for those who helped in private messaging.

 

[justanotherdave]

Absolutely going to get an electric car within the next 12 months. Already drove the Mustang Mach-E and liked it. Saw the early preview of the BMW i4 and iX and they looked good and the starting prices were better than I thought (esp the i4 which is very competitive against the Model 3). I just can’t get over Tesla quality and lack of basic features like CarPlay.

Unfortunately, even though I work for BMW I can’t get employee leasing on the new EVs as they restrict employee discounts to more common models (also can’t lease any M car).

I’m also interested in seeing what the Lyriq, Polestar and a few others are like.

Luckily I live in an area that not only has cheap electricity, but also gets over 90% of that electricity from Hydro. So no guilt about fossil fuel fired electricity.

 

[VictorTango777]

Within car manufacturers there seem to be some strange wording games, what "electric" means. Some seem to claim hybrid cars with fuel engines are "electric". So announcing "all our cars will be electric by the year XX" this can mean all cars will only be hybrid, maybe for legal or image reasons, but still rely on conventional piston engine fuel burn.

Let's not forget the Chevy Volt so-called "range extending electric car" (actually a plugin hybrid). Or Toyota's "self charging" BS.

I will be convinced when Toyota makes one. They are into easy, convenient, low-maintenance and quality. It can be difficult looking at other cars when you are used to the tops in quality and reliability. Even if they are ugly and boring.

Toyota is definitely slow-walking the transition to full EV so they can continue to milk their hybrids. Toyota can make whatever cars they want to make, and customers can buy EV's from other companies. But what's really galling is Toyota actively lobbying against stronger fuel efficiency and emissions standards while claiming to be environmentally conscious.

If I were buying an electric/hybrid SUV, it would be a Toyota RAV4 Prime. This year (2021), it's also a plug-in EV as well as hybrid allowing electric-only mode for shorter distances. Toyota has great reliability and longevity (Consumer Reports). For practicality purposes, I'm also waiting for a hybrid Tacoma that Toyota may introduce in the next year or so.

Whatever Toyota's plans are for full EV, it is no excuse for the way they treat their own plugin hybrids as an afterthought. Toyota doesn't care about people who have to use public charging stations. The Prius Prime only supports 3 kW charging. A full charge takes 2 hours on a Level 2 charger or 5 hours on 120 V. Most Level 2 public charging stations support 6 kW, but the Prime can’t make full use of it.

The RAV4 Prime comes standard with 3 kW charging. Due to the larger battery, a full charge takes 4.5 hours on Level 2 or 12 hours on 120 V. Faster 6 kW charging is available, but only on the higher end XSE model with the full options package, bringing the price close to a Tesla Model Y. And even then, it does not support DC fast charging like Tesla.

Toyota is purposely making EV charging inconvenient even for their own customers. They want people to think that since their cars charge slowly, all EVs must charge just as slow. By crippling the charging speed in their plugin hybrids, Toyota thinks there will be less demand for them to make full EVs.

Due to Toyota's crappy charging speed, people interested in a plugin hybrid should look elsewhere, such as the Honda Clarity PHEV. The Clarity has more interior space, more horsepower than the Prius Prime, longer electric range, and includes faster 6 kW charging standard.

Also would like to see hydrogen take off, but sadly all the car companies are putting their R&D £££ into electric.

The Mercedes GLC F-Cell hydrogen-plugin hybrid is interesting. Should be less complex than gas-electric hybrid since a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle uses the same electric motor as a hybrid. So a hydrogen-plugin hybrid does not need the gasoline engine and related emissions components.

 

[Mellofello808]

Let's not forget the Chevy Volt so-called "range extending electric car" (actually a plugin hybrid). Or Toyota's "self charging" BS.



Toyota is definitely slow-walking the transition to full EV so they can continue to milk their hybrids. Toyota can make whatever cars they want to make, and customers can buy EV's from other companies. But what's really galling is Toyota actively lobbying against stronger fuel efficiency and emissions standards while claiming to be environmentally conscious.



Whatever Toyota's plans are for full EV, it is no excuse for the way they treat their own plugin hybrids as an afterthought. Toyota doesn't care about people who have to use public charging stations. The Prius Prime only supports 3 kW charging. A full charge takes 2 hours on a Level 2 charger or 5 hours on 120 V. Most Level 2 public charging stations support 6 kW, but the Prime can’t make full use of it.

The RAV4 Prime comes standard with 3 kW charging. Due to the larger battery, a full charge takes 4.5 hours on Level 2 or 12 hours on 120 V. Faster 6 kW charging is available, but only on the higher end XSE model with the full options package, bringing the price close to a Tesla Model Y. And even then, it does not support DC fast charging like Tesla.

Toyota is purposely making EV charging inconvenient even for their own customers. They want people to think that since their cars charge slowly, all EVs must charge just as slow. By crippling the charging speed in their plugin hybrids, Toyota thinks there will be less demand for them to make full EVs.

Due to Toyota's crappy charging speed, people interested in a plugin hybrid should look elsewhere, such as the Honda Clarity PHEV. The Clarity has more interior space, more horsepower than the Prius Prime, longer electric range, and includes faster 6 kW charging standard.



The Mercedes GLC F-Cell hydrogen-plugin hybrid is interesting. Should be less complex than gas-electric hybrid since a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle uses the same electric motor as a hybrid. So a hydrogen-plugin hybrid does not need the gasoline engine and related emissions components.

The latest is that they are saying going EV will cause a large cut in jobs. Which actually is true to an extent. It takes much fewer people to build, and subsequently maintain an EV.

However IMO this all benefits the consumer who should be paramount in the discussion

Toyota CEO Says Going All-EV Will Hurt Jobs - The News Wheel

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda warns the company may have to move or cut 5.5 million Japanese jobs when the country bans combustion engines.

thenewswheel.com

 

[pshufd]

Toyota is definitely slow-walking the transition to full EV so they can continue to milk their hybrids. Toyota can make whatever cars they want to make, and customers can buy EV's from other companies. But what's really galling is Toyota actively lobbying against stronger fuel efficiency and emissions standards while claiming to be environmentally conscious.

Whatever Toyota's plans are for full EV, it is no excuse for the way they treat their own plugin hybrids as an afterthought. Toyota doesn't care about people who have to use public charging stations. The Prius Prime only supports 3 kW charging. A full charge takes 2 hours on a Level 2 charger or 5 hours on 120 V. Most Level 2 public charging stations support 6 kW, but the Prime can’t make full use of it.

The RAV4 Prime comes standard with 3 kW charging. Due to the larger battery, a full charge takes 4.5 hours on Level 2 or 12 hours on 120 V. Faster 6 kW charging is available, but only on the higher end XSE model with the full options package, bringing the price close to a Tesla Model Y. And even then, it does not support DC fast charging like Tesla.

Toyota is purposely making EV charging inconvenient even for their own customers. They want people to think that since their cars charge slowly, all EVs must charge just as slow. By crippling the charging speed in their plugin hybrids, Toyota thinks there will be less demand for them to make full EVs.

Due to Toyota's crappy charging speed, people interested in a plugin hybrid should look elsewhere, such as the Honda Clarity PHEV. The Clarity has more interior space, more horsepower than the Prius Prime, longer electric range, and includes faster 6 kW charging standard.

I've been a Toyota customer since 2000 and their vehicles have made my life a lot easier in terms of maintenance, repairs and service. We also have a Honda dealership in my area but I went with Toyota because they were closer to my workplace and the Honda dealership was rather congested and haphazard. The Toyota dealership built their campus in an uncongested area while the Honda dealership is in a heavily congested area that is difficult to get into and out of.

I'm a practical person and want convenience, reliability and maintainability. And that means Toyota or whoever can keep up with them in that area. And, at the current time, there aren't other companies in that space.

 

[pshufd]

The latest is that they are saying going EV will cause a large cut in jobs. Which actually is true to an extent. It takes much fewer people to build, and subsequently maintain an EV.

However IMO this all benefits the consumer who should be paramount in the discussion

Toyota CEO Says Going All-EV Will Hurt Jobs - The News Wheel

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda warns the company may have to move or cut 5.5 million Japanese jobs when the country bans combustion engines.

thenewswheel.com

Toyota has an excellent set of ICE engines, refined over a long period of time. And they want to monetize those assets. They are working on figuring out EVs and will have products when the supply chain can handle it. Similar to Apple in making and selling tens of millions of iPhones. They seem to know what they are doing.

 

[VictorTango777]

Tesla average battery degradation after 200,000 miles based on data collected

2020 Impact Report | Tesla

See how Tesla is accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy with highlights from our 2020 Impact Report.

www.tesla.com

 

[pshufd]

Tesla average battery degradation after 200,000 miles based on data collected

2020 Impact Report | Tesla

See how Tesla is accelerating the world's transition to sustainable energy with highlights from our 2020 Impact Report.

www.tesla.com

View attachment 1860146

Do they swap out dead cells during maintenance?

The great electricity shortage in China is a cautionary to moving to electric too quickly. I just heard that our nuclear power plant is having some problems with concrete. Our electric costs would shoot up (we'd have to buy it from Quebec Hydro I think) if we lost Seabrook Nuclear.

 

[VictorTango777]

Do they swap out dead cells during maintenance?

The great electricity shortage in China is a cautionary to moving to electric too quickly. I just heard that our nuclear power plant is having some problems with concrete. Our electric costs would shoot up (we'd have to buy it from Quebec Hydro I think) if we lost Seabrook Nuclear.

How is the progress of next generation nuclear reactors that promise to provide better protection against meltdowns and nuclear proliferation? Are established nuclear power companies like GE and Westinghouse lobbying against or otherwise trying to slow down next generation reactors so they can continue to profit from their existing plants, similar to what Toyota and all the other legacy automakers are doing?

 

[pshufd]

How is the progress of next generation nuclear reactors that promise to provide better protection against meltdowns and nuclear proliferation? Are established nuclear power companies like GE and Westinghouse lobbying against or otherwise trying to slow down next generation reactors so they can continue to profit from their existing plants, similar to what Toyota and all the other legacy automakers are doing?

The problem with new nuclear plants is NIMBY and the regulatory costs.

There's a second pad at Seabrook for a second plant. It's been empty for 30 or 40 years. There were protests as in people scaling the fences when it was being built. Our other plant is NG-fired and we export a lot of power from our state because we have a lot of excess capacity. But we'd be in bad shape without Seabrook. Also, our electricity prices are already among the highest in the country. We pay high prices for reliability (a lot of money is spent on the grid).

 

[pmiles]

I think people seem to forget what is required to make the batteries for electric cars. And no one ever asks what happens to all those batteries when they are no longer being used. Electric isn't better for the environment or the wallet. It's just a different resource. All resources come at a price.

 

[quagmire]

I think people seem to forget what is required to make the batteries for electric cars. And no one ever asks what happens to all those batteries when they are no longer being used. Electric isn't better for the environment or the wallet. It's just a different resource. All resources come at a price.

The batteries once used are recycled. Either the materials which Tesla claims the new process is able to recycle up to 92% of the materials( https://insideevs.com/news/525965/tesla-battery-recycling-no-waste/ ) or the batteries while not suitable for a car anymore, but go be used for power storage as backup power.

 

[Falhófnir]

I think people seem to forget what is required to make the batteries for electric cars. And no one ever asks what happens to all those batteries when they are no longer being used. Electric isn't better for the environment or the wallet. It's just a different resource. All resources come at a price.

With something like Al-Ion I think it would be feasible to switch wholesale, but that’s not been commercialised yet and I have my doubts we will see it in the next decade. Meanwhile Li-Ion is stagnant, woefully inadequate for many automotive use cases, and as you say heavily polluting in itself. I get the feeling a lot of the targets for stopping sales of new ICE vehicles will start slipping once we get to 2030 and the tech still hasn’t caught up. Instead maybe we should have a moratorium on large petrol engines in new cars sooner. Say you can have up to 1.0L displacement, and if you want any more power than that can provide it needs to come from an electric power plant. Hybrids can get ridiculously good fuel economy, very low emissions, and excellent range.

 

[VictorTango777]

With something like Al-Ion I think it would be feasible to switch wholesale, but that’s not been commercialised yet and I have my doubts we will see it in the next decade. Meanwhile Li-Ion is stagnant, woefully inadequate for many automotive use cases, and as you say heavily polluting in itself. I get the feeling a lot of the targets for stopping sales of new ICE vehicles will start slipping once we get to 2030 and the tech still hasn’t caught up. Instead maybe we should have a moratorium on large petrol engines in new cars sooner. Say you can have up to 1.0L displacement, and if you want any more power than that can provide it needs to come from an electric power plant. Hybrids can get ridiculously good fuel economy, very low emissions, and excellent range.

How about a requirement for plugin cars to have a minimum Level 2 charging capability (at least 6 kW to match most public charging stations) so companies like Toyota can’t sell plugin hybrids with purposely crippled charging speed like they currently do?

 

[jz0309]

How about a requirement for plugin cars to have a minimum Level 2 charging capability (at least 6 kW to match most public charging stations) so companies like Toyota can’t sell plugin hybrids with purposely crippled charging speed like they currently do?

don't spread bad information, my 2017 Prius Prime DOES have L2 charging as all other Toyota plug-ins have and had.

 

[pshufd]

Outside of the Prius, it appears to me that Toyota's hybrid and plugins are really to check the box and capture the tax credits rather than really decrease gasoline use. Also, electrified enhances performance and can power AWD using electric motors in the back.

 

[VictorTango777]

don't spread bad information, my 2017 Prius Prime DOES have L2 charging as all other Toyota plug-ins have and had.

As I noted in a previous post:

The Prius Prime only supports 3 kW charging. A full charge takes 2 hours on a Level 2 charger or 5 hours on 120 V. Most Level 2 public charging stations support 6 kW, but the Prime can’t make full use of it.

The RAV4 Prime comes standard with 3 kW charging. Due to the larger battery, a full charge takes 4.5 hours on Level 2 or 12 hours on 120 V. Faster 6 kW charging is available, but only on the higher end XSE model with the full options package, bringing the price close to a Tesla Model Y. And even then, it does not support DC fast charging like Tesla.

Meanwhile, the Honda Clarity PHEV includes 6 kW charging as standard equipment.

Did you honestly not know about the differences in Level 2 charging power on different cars or did you purposely decide to ignore it just so you can argue?

 

[jz0309]

As I noted in a previous post:



Meanwhile, the Honda Clarity PHEV includes 6 kW charging as standard equipment.

Did you honestly not know about the differences in Level 2 charging power on different cars or did you purposely decide to ignore it just so you can argue?

L2 charging depends on what your circuit can provide, so rather than quoting your own post - provide a link to the spec to the charger in the Prius Prime ...

 

[quagmire]

L2 charging depends on what your circuit can provide, so rather than quoting your own post - provide a link to the spec to the charger in the Prius Prime ...

Incorrect.

I can install an 80A circuit, but my Tesla Model 3 Long Range will only charge at its max capability of 48A/11Kw even if I use the 2nd gen Tesla Wall Connector that is capable of using that 80A circuit. The Model 3 SR+ is only capable of charging at 32A. As the chargers are built into the car. All the plug is an interface between the house and car.

And it isn't hard to figure out how many kw's it max's out at. Toyota advertises ~ 2 hour charging time on 240V. The Prime's battery is 8.8Kwh. Not all of that battery capacity is usable( usually 1-2 kwh in reserve) so lets just say only 7 kwh is usable in the Prius prime. Divide that by the charging time of 2 hours and you get ~3.5 kw charging capability.

 

[jz0309]

Incorrect.

I can install an 80A circuit, but my Tesla will only charge at its max capability of 48A/11Kw even if I use the 2nd gen Tesla Wall Connector that is capable of using that 80A circuit. The Model 3 SR+ is only capable of charging at 32A. As the chargers are built into the car. All the plug is an interface between the house and car.

And it isn't hard to figure out how many kw's it max's out at. Toyota advertises ~ 2 hour charging time on 240V. The Prime's battery is 8.8Kwh. Not all of that battery capacity is usable( usually 1-2 kwh in reserve) so lets just say only 7 kwh is usable in the Prius prime. Divide that by the charging time of 2 hours and you get ~3.5 kw charging capability.

and not everyone can install an 80A circuit in their house ...

And yes, the charger is built in, and actually the Prime uses ~ 6.6kWh of the 8.8 kWh battery, so when plugged in, it's ~ 3.3kW, but, the Prime has what is called "Charge Mode", that let's you actually charge the battery from 0 to 80% max using the ICE, and I've tried it, it takes ~ 40 or so min to go from 0 to 80%, which is ~ 5.2kWh, which means the built in charger is capable of much more than 3.3 kWh, it is limited when plugged in ...

 

[quagmire]

and not everyone can install an 80A circuit in their house ...

And yes, the charger is built in, and actually the Prime uses ~ 6.6kWh of the 8.8 kWh battery, so when plugged in, it's ~ 3.3kW, but, the Prime has what is called "Charge Mode", that let's you actually charge the battery from 0 to 80% max using the ICE, and I've tried it, it takes ~ 40 or so min to go from 0 to 80%, which is ~ 5.2kWh, which means the built in charger is capable of much more than 3.3 kWh, it is limited when plugged in ...

You first stated that the capability of L2 charging is dependent on the circuit. Now the goal post is not everyone can install an 80A circuit......

There you go.... The Prius Prime's L2 charging capability is only 3.3 kwh. Nothing wrong with VictorTango's post.

 

[VictorTango777]

You first stated that the capability of L2 charging is dependent on the circuit. Now the goal post is not everyone can install an 80A circuit......

There you go.... The Prius Prime's L2 charging capability is only 3.3 kwh. Nothing wrong with VictorTango's post.

And moving the goal post again going from plugin charging to Charge Mode which runs the engine and burns gas. Which is pretty much what the standard Prius and other standard hybrids do, aka Toyota’s “self-charging hybrid” marketing BS.

Proof of Toyota’s crippled plugin charging speed compared to other manufacturers. The vast majority of Level 2 public charging stations are capable of 6 kW charging which the Prius Prime and most RAV4 Primes can’t fully use. If EV naysayers want to criticize Tesla’s charging speed, then they should be crapping all over Toyota for this.

2024 Toyota Prius Prime FAQ | Toyota.com

Head to Toyota.com to find answers to frequently asked questions about the 2024 Toyota Prius Prime, including FAQs on charging time and more.

www.toyota.com

2024 Toyota RAV4 Prime Specifications |Toyota.com

Visit the official Toyota website to find the 2024 Toyota RAV4 Prime specifications. These specs include information on performance and dimensions as well as details on standard and available features.

www.toyota.com

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