Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[danny_w]

Not me!

100% electric is not practical in a hurricane prone tropical climate where power can be out for weeks at a time.

I like to keep my cars for 10+ years to lower annual cost of ownership, thus the higher acquisition and battery replacement is cost prohibitive.

But if I won the lottery, where cost was no longer a factor, I would get a Porsche. Tesla build quality is just not there.

Porsche Electromobility with Porsche E-Performance. - Porsche USA

Experience Porsche electric and hybrid vehicles and discover our electromobility solutions.

www.porsche.com

Agreed. My wife and I are retired and both of our cars (Miata and Camry) are over 10 years old but just now getting broken in so to speak (65K and 105K miles respectively). I have no desire for a new car in the near future, and when I do buy a new car, the battery life of an electric car is a real concern for me. Basically an electric car becomes disposable much earlier than an ICE car, and for me that is a real problem. It seems to me in many ways that we are actually going backwards by making cars with limited lifespans. I don't need a new car anytime in the near future, but I would like my next car to last for the rest of my (driving) life (I'm 68 now). With an electric car I don't see this as a possibility.

 

[44267547]

As of today, if I would be willing to buy an electric car.

There are many options, relatively inexpensive, with ranges greater than 500km.Speaking of Europe, where I live, we have the VW ID.3 77 kWh with 550km of autonomy, the Cupra Born, derived from the VW ID.3 with identical specifications, but a more refined interior and more power, and at the dynamic level, something more sporty. The Renault Megane E-Tech Electric, with similar specifications, has recently been presented.

In SUVs we have the VW ID.4/Skoda Enyaq/Audi Q4, with 510-520km of autonomy, the Kia EV6/Hyundai Ioniq 5 with 500km of autonomy and 350kw charge.

All are around 30-50,000 euros, before government subsidies, which will depend on the country where we live. In Spain, it is between 5000-10000 euros.

However, in Spain there is a great deficit of chargers on the roads, and even more of fast charging chargers, more than 150kW. Only Tesla has more or less well distributed superchargers for their cars (well, when they release them, also for the rest).

I think Tesla is a great manufacturer at the software and battery management level, but their cars are not up to their price. They have quality deficiencies that you don't find in a Peugeot 208 or a sub-€20,000 utility car. Poorly fitted roof panels on absolutely every Model 3 since its launch, gaps between the doors, bumpers, hood, trunk, which they do not fix, dampness in the tail lights, etc.

In the US, Rivian or Lucid seem to me much more interesting brands than Tesla, they go slow, but if so much... swagger. Slow, doing things little by little, but without pause, without self-bragging, bringing out very solid and interesting products, like the Lucid Air or the Rivian R1T/S.

GM's electric models also look very good. The Cadillac Liriq looks beautiful, futuristic and with very good specifications.

Every time I test drive an electric car, it makes me feel like I'm in the last century when I get in my car. The silence, the instant power, the ability to use it with one pedal in the city, makes it a perfect everyday car.

To use it as a travel car, it depends more on the country in question in which you live, there are some very advanced and others, not so much.

What we’re seeing the likes of with Rivian, is that it’s a company that looks like it has a really promising product for the future, (Given the truck segment really doesn’t have that many EV options aside from the Ford Lightning and Cybertruck), the Rivian R1T for the base model, starts at almost $68,000, followed by the R1S at $70,000. To me, that’s a bit excessive for a first GEN product. But then again, this is what you have to pay for new technology, and a company that needs to capitalize on their investment.

As for the Lucid Air, that is a beautiful looking car, (which I posted photos in here), but that’s a luxury electric Segment. The Lucid Air base model starts at $70,000 and range all the way to $130,000 depending which model you choose.

So looking at Rivian, It has to compete with the likes of the Cybertruck starting at a considerably less price point, also with the Ford Lightning starting at $40,000.

And then Lucid, has to compete with the likes of Tesla, which has a greater maturity point and also significantly less expensive with the Model 3. Then again, I think Lucid is not targeting just someone who wants an EV, they’re targeting those who want the full ‘luxury experience’.

 

[44267547]

Agreed. My wife and I are retired and both of our cars (Miata and Camry) are over 10 years old but just now getting broken in so to speak (65K and 105K miles respectively). I have no desire for a new car in the near future, and when I do buy a new car, the battery life of an electric car is a real concern for me. Basically an electric car becomes disposable much earlier than an ICE car, and for me that is a real problem. It seems to me in many ways that we are actually going backwards by making cars with limited lifespans. I don't need a new car anytime in the near future, but I would like my next car to last for the rest of my (driving) life (I'm 68 now). With an electric car I don't see this as a possibility.

I don’t think your mindset though is how people generally think, and you may not be the appropriate segment for an EV target for your ‘daily driving’ needs and technology considerations.

If you think about it, let’s say somebody purchases a new EV vehicle, one would reasonably expect that the battery lifespan is likely 10 years, and probably with minimalistic problems given there’s no drivetrain components other than the actual drive unit(s). Now, how many consumers generally keep their vehicles for 10 years or longer? (Just asking rhetorically) I don’t know anybody that does, most people probably keep a vehicle 3 to 7 years as a guesstimate median. Even though your mindset is that it has a ‘limited lifespan’ (Which is true), but why would that matter to the consumer that wouldn’t keep the vehicle that long anyways before they upgrade to a newer model or switch brands.

So in theory, I suspect most EV owners will probably drive their EV until 3 to 5 years before they upgrade to something else and/or it’s paid off, etc. So the whole limited lifespan doesn’t really apply to these people, because they’re already onto their next ride well before the EV actually has significant problems where it becomes costly due to aging.

 

[pshufd]

I don’t think your mindset though is how people generally think, and you may not be the appropriate segment for an EV target for your ‘daily driving’ needs and technology considerations.

If you think about it, let’s say somebody purchases a new EV vehicle, one would reasonably expect that the battery lifespan is likely 10 years, and probably with minimalistic problems given there’s no drivetrain components other than the actual drive unit(s). Now, how many consumers generally keep their vehicles for 10 years or longer? (Just asking rhetorically) I don’t know anybody that does, most people probably keep a vehicle 3 to 7 years as a guesstimate median. Even though your mindset is that it has a ‘limited lifespan’ (Which is true), but why would that matter to the consumer that wouldn’t keep the vehicle that long anyways before they upgrade to a newer model or switch brands.

So in theory, I suspect most EV owners will probably drive their EV until 3 to 5 years before they upgrade to something else and/or it’s paid off, etc. So the whole limited lifespan doesn’t really apply to these people, because they’re already onto their next ride well before the EV actually has significant problems where it becomes costly due to aging.

I bought an Avalon in 2000. Traded it in in 2012 with 250K miles on it. Car was fine though. Bought a 2012 Camry which I still drive. Car is still fine. There are lots of people that keep cars for a long time, drive old cars or buy them when they are 5, 6, 7 years old. Something that you definitely see with Hondas and Toyotas because they will typically go the distance without killing you on maintenance costs.

 

[RSB96]

What we’re seeing the likes of with Rivian, is that it’s a company that looks like it has a really promising product for the future, (Given the truck segment really doesn’t have that many EV options aside from the Ford Lightning and Cybertruck), the Rivian R1T for the base model, starts at almost $68,000, followed by the R1S at $70,000. To me, that’s a bit excessive for a first GEN product. But then again, this is what you have to pay for new technology, and a company that needs to capitalize on their investment.

As for the Lucid Air, that is a beautiful looking car, (which I posted photos in here), but that’s a luxury electric Segment. The Lucid Air base model starts at $70,000 and range all the way to $130,000 depending which model you choose.

So looking at Rivian, It has to compete with the likes of the Cybertruck starting at a considerably less price point, also with the Ford Lightning starting at $40,000.

And then Lucid, has to compete with the likes of Tesla, which has a greater maturity point and also significantly less expensive with the Model 3. Then again, I think Lucid is not targeting just someone who wants an EV, they’re targeting those who want the full ‘luxury experience’.

It is true that Rivian and Lucid, for the moment, are aiming higher in the price range.

The Lucid Air I think you have to compare it with the Mercedes-Benz EQS, or the Model S. More or less start at the same price, I think the Mercedes is more expensive, at least in Europe.

The Rivian looks like a more premium product, maybe competing with the future electric GMC. The Hummer, by specifications I think it will be above, not only in price.

Both brands start at the top (as Tesla started, on the other hand), to gradually go down in price, once more or less amortized the initial investment.

 

[44267547]

I bought an Avalon in 2000. Traded it in in 2012 with 250K miles on it. Car was fine though. Bought a 2012 Camry which I still drive. Car is still fine. There are lots of people that keep cars for a long time, drive old cars or buy them when they are 5, 6, 7 years old. Something that you definitely see with Hondas and Toyotas because they will typically go the distance without killing you on maintenance costs.

Of course there is a demographic that will drive cars until the wheels fall off. There’s a demographic for every category. But what metric am I using that consumers generally will keep cars between three and seven years before they trade/upgrade? In my circle, I’m using a metric base of people that I have a direct contact with in the auto industry, [which I talked many times in the ‘car thread’], through dealer purchasing in auctions, dealer owners, etc. Some of my closest friends have 30+ years in the automotive industry, so I generally have a pretty good idea living in a fairly large city.

Plus, When you look at cars like the garbage has been put out by GM with the Cruise and Equinox for example, I do believe consumers are upgrading in a shorter time span, because those cars aren’t very well-built that barely make it 60,000 miles with drivetrain problems. But I will concede that Toyota and Honda have very well renowned reliability, excellent resale value, but they’re just a small part of all the automotive options consumers have.

 

[CartesianProduct2014]

I don’t see myself going electric. I have three cars for personal use, two with low mileage.

 

[Strelok]

Got a 2021 Model 3 LR in March. ~50 miles a day and I still get by fine just using a standard 120V outlet. For 90%+ of driving, EVs make more sense than gas. The only time that’s not true is if you drive 250+ miles daily and/or care about towing.

 

[pshufd]

Of course there is a demographic that will drive cars until the wheels fall off. There’s a demographic for every category. But what metric am I using that consumers generally will keep cars between three and seven years before they trade/upgrade? In my circle, I’m using a metric base of people that I have a direct contact with in the auto industry, [which I talked many times in the ‘car thread’], through dealer purchasing in auctions, dealer owners, etc. Some of my closest friends have 30+ years in the automotive industry, so I generally have a pretty good idea living in a fairly large city.

Plus, When you look at cars like the garbage has been put out by GM with the Cruise and Equinox for example, I do believe consumers are upgrading in a shorter time span, because those cars aren’t very well-built that barely make it 60,000 miles with drivetrain problems. But I will concede that Toyota and Honda have very well renowned reliability, excellent resale value, but they’re just a small part of all the automotive options consumers have.

The average age of vehicles on the road is over 12 years (source: IHS Markit). Higher new car (and used car too) prices are pushing people to keep cars longer than before. New car sales made up 6.1% of the fleet last year which is a small amount and certainly indicates that a much longer turnover rate than 3-5 years.

The largest car companies by marketcap are now Tesla ($911B), Toyota ($241B) and Volkswagen ($142B). GM ($84B), F ($65B), HMC ($52B), and Chrysler ($29B) don't come close. But car companies are global today so that represents global sales. Still, Toyota is killing it. The top four vehicles sold in the United States so far in 2021 are:

1) Ford F-Series, 534,831
2) Ram Pickup 434,772
3) Chevrolet Silverado 407,266
4) Toyota RAV4 313,447
5) Honda CR-V 290,140
6) Toyota Camry 256,769
7) Nissan Rogue 234,647
8) Toyota Corolla 212,727
9) Honda Civid 216,575
10) Toyota Highlander 207,564
11) Toyota Tacoma 191,186
12) GMC Sierra 191,186
13) Jeep Grand Cherokee 189,727
14) Jeep Wrangler 164,709
15) Ford Explorer 160,174
16) Honda Accord 157,988
17) Chevrolet Equinox 151,110
18) Mazda CX-5 137,343
19) Tesla Model Y 132,400
20) Subaru Forester 132,254
21) Subaru Outback 122,978
22) Hyundai Tucson 116,047
23) Honda Pilot 114,667
24) Ford Escape 111,791
25) Nissan Sentra 110,821

The list above indicates that Toyota sells more vehicles, with Fiat Chrysler in second place. Tesla Model Y still has very small marketshare.

One other factor affecting new car purchases is rising prices and this may be why Toyota does so well in the United States - Total Cost of Ownership.

 

[pshufd]

Got a 2021 Model 3 LR in March. ~50 miles a day and I still get by fine just using a standard 120V outlet. For 90%+ of driving, EVs make more sense than gas. The only time that’s not true is if you drive 250+ miles daily and/or care about towing.

The vast majority of US drivers disagree with your assessment.

 

[Adarna]

I live in a poor country and the infrastructure where I live has me buying a hybrid for the first 100,000km of use then going full EV for the next 100,000km

 

[JT2002TJ]

The vast majority of US drivers disagree with your assessment.

I personally think he/she/they are right with the comment you quoted. Most people do not drive enough to need a gas vehicle for there day-to-day commutes (as long as their daily commute is <250 miles per day). There are exceptions, which include people who do not have access to an outlet when parking at home (out door apartments without electric car parking), or as they said need a specialty vehicle (pickup,...).

Now, the 10% of driving that you would suffer with an electric vehicle (road trips) may be a deal breaker, along with the added initial cost of an EV.

The vast majority of US drivers do not have a new enough vehicle where EVs were even an option...

 

[pshufd]

I personally think he/she/they are right with the comment you quoted. Most people do not drive enough to need a gas vehicle for there day-to-day commutes (as long as their daily commute is <250 miles per day). There are exceptions, which include people who do not have access to an outlet when parking at home (out door apartments without electric car parking), or as they said need a specialty vehicle (pickup,...).

Now, the 10% of driving that you would suffer with an electric vehicle (road trips) may be a deal breaker, along with the added initial cost of an EV.

The vast majority of US drivers do not have a new enough vehicle where EVs were even an option...

And my comment is correct. The vast majority of people do disagree with his statement in how they make their purchasing decisions.

All of the people I know with Teslas also have at least on additional ICE vehicle. These folks are all retired so they have no daily commute. But they do travel and they use their ICE vehicles for that.

The vast majority of new buyers don't even consider an EV.

One other factor is that people in colder climates probably want a garage.

 

[quagmire]

Got another convert. My mom just placed an order for a Model Y yesterday.

 

[Olv]

My plan is to never buy a car again, but I’d go for an electric car should I have to buy one. More than 50% of all sold (new) cars here are electric cars.

 

[danny_w]

The average age of vehicles on the road is over 12 years (source: IHS Markit). Higher new car (and used car too) prices are pushing people to keep cars longer than before. New car sales made up 6.1% of the fleet last year which is a small amount and certainly indicates that a much longer turnover rate than 3-5 years.

The largest car companies by marketcap are now Tesla ($911B), Toyota ($241B) and Volkswagen ($142B). GM ($84B), F ($65B), HMC ($52B), and Chrysler ($29B) don't come close. But car companies are global today so that represents global sales. Still, Toyota is killing it. The top four vehicles sold in the United States so far in 2021 are:

1) Ford F-Series, 534,831
2) Ram Pickup 434,772
3) Chevrolet Silverado 407,266
4) Toyota RAV4 313,447
5) Honda CR-V 290,140
6) Toyota Camry 256,769
7) Nissan Rogue 234,647
8) Toyota Corolla 212,727
9) Honda Civid 216,575
10) Toyota Highlander 207,564
11) Toyota Tacoma 191,186
12) GMC Sierra 191,186
13) Jeep Grand Cherokee 189,727
14) Jeep Wrangler 164,709
15) Ford Explorer 160,174
16) Honda Accord 157,988
17) Chevrolet Equinox 151,110
18) Mazda CX-5 137,343
19) Tesla Model Y 132,400
20) Subaru Forester 132,254
21) Subaru Outback 122,978
22) Hyundai Tucson 116,047
23) Honda Pilot 114,667
24) Ford Escape 111,791
25) Nissan Sentra 110,821

The list above indicates that Toyota sells more vehicles, with Fiat Chrysler in second place. Tesla Model Y still has very small marketshare.

One other factor affecting new car purchases is rising prices and this may be why Toyota does so well in the United States - Total Cost of Ownership.
View attachment 1880596

Yes I think it is short sighted to only consider the original owners and the length of time that they own a car. Most cars today have a useful life considerably longer than the 3-5 years that has been quoted for the first owner, and then what happens to the car? Rusting away in a junkyard? It seems to me that with EVs we are trading one environmental problem for another down the road if in the process we produce cars that must be junked earlier in life (this seems especially true with the idea of making the car body the battery - how can the battery then be replaced or recycled?). Realistically speaking how many are going to be willing to invest the money to replace the (very expensive) batteries in an EV when they die, especially considering that many people who drive these older cars are on a very tight budget? Humans always seem to only see the now and push off the problems we create to future generations. This doesn't even consider the added damage to our roadways caused by heavier EVs and the extra torque that they produce. Please understand that I don't have the solution for any of this, but am concerned about the environmental damage our short sightedness is going to cause in the future. I just don't see EVs as the panacea that many people seem to think that they are.

 

[Strelok]

And my comment is correct. The vast majority of people do disagree with his statement in how they make their purchasing decisions.

All of the people I know with Teslas also have at least on additional ICE vehicle. These folks are all retired so they have no daily commute. But they do travel and they use their ICE vehicles for that.

The vast majority of new buyers don't even consider an EV.

One other factor is that people in colder climates probably want a garage.

There are a lot of reasons why EVs are still a fraction of the sales of ICE. Most of the EVs before the Model 3 had issues, including range and looks. You can get a perfectly reliable ICE vehicle for less than half the cost of a Model 3 LR as well. The choices are pretty limited and the prices are pretty high for EVs.

If you can charge at home and can afford it, an EV makes a lot more sense than ICE for daily commuting and most of the driving we do.

Quite frankly I don't care what other people do, if they want to continue buying ICE vehicles that's fine by me. There are a lot of emotional reasons why someone would want ICE over EV and there's nothing wrong with that. From a practical point of view, EVs make more sense in my opinion. Full "tank of gas" everyday, power is instant and less noise pollution.

 

[44267547]

I know the whole ICE—versus—EV topic can get really divisive. Part of me actually believes, that maybe earlier generations of people are inclined to believe why they don’t need (v.s. want) an electric vehicle, for reasons that it’s ‘bad for the environment’, ‘will be expensive for repairs’, possible re-sale problems, ect, because they’re from a generation where they don’t see how this would advantage them because ICE has been so predominant in their lifetime. I’ve said it already, then EV is not an appropriate option for certain people.

My Dad for example, he ordered a $90,000 Model S back in August, and ultimately canceled because of uncertainty if that’s what he wanted, plus he had a longer ship time. And even though he won’t admit it to me, I know he partially canceled because he’s not entirely sure if he wants to graduate away entirely from ICE.

Then, you might have a younger generation who likely appreciates tech, (which EV’s offers plenty of), Tesla is very much like Apple, they’re not just a ‘car company’, they’re a brand. And that’s one of the reasons in the appeal to a younger demographic.

But, it really depends where you live, that supports the infrastructure for charging based on your needs and how far you travel. The Midwest is probably the biggest black hole in terms of not having an appropriate infrastructure for EV’s, but that’s changing every day.

For me as a candidate, this is still a very dynamic category that’s changing all the time, and will continue to grow immensely in the upcoming years with more options, and more price ranges for consumers. I was just talking to a mechanic today who is upgrading to the Ford Lightning, and I think it’s worth waiting to see how it performs personally.

Being I’ve never owned a full EV vehicle, this is all new to me, and I’m ready to bridge that gap, but I want to make sure I’m being thorough with my homework.

 

[pshufd]

I know the whole ICE—versus—EV topic can get really divisive. Part of me actually believes, that maybe earlier generations of people are inclined to believe why they don’t need (v.s. want) an electric vehicle, for reasons that it’s ‘bad for the environment’, ‘will be expensive for repairs’, possible re-sale problems, ect, because they’re from a generation where they don’t see how this would advantage them because ICE has been so predominant in their lifetime. I’ve said it already, then EV is not an appropriate option for certain people.

My Dad for example, he ordered a $90,000 Model S back in August, and ultimately canceled because of uncertainty if that’s what he wanted, plus he had a longer ship time. And even though he won’t admit it to me, I know he partially canceled because he’s not entirely sure if he wants to graduate away entirely from ICE.

Then, you might have a younger generation who likely appreciates tech, (which EV’s offers plenty of), Tesla is very much like Apple, they’re not just a ‘car company’, they’re a brand. And that’s one of the reasons in the appeal to a younger demographic.

But, it really depends where you live, that supports the infrastructure for charging based on your needs and how far you travel. The Midwest is probably the biggest black hole in terms of not having an appropriate infrastructure for EV’s, but that’s changing every day.

For me as a candidate, this is still a very dynamic category that’s changing all the time, and will continue to grow immensely in the upcoming years with more options, and more price ranges for consumers. I was just talking to a mechanic today who is upgrading to the Ford Lightning, and I think it’s worth waiting to see how it performs personally.

Being I’ve never owned a full EV vehicle, this is all new to me, and I’m ready to bridge that gap, but I want to make sure I’m being thorough with my homework.

It's really very simple for me.

When Toyota sells one, then I'll be interested.

Toyota gives you quality, logistics for parts, service, and, if they build it, it means that they think that it will be a mass-market seller in price ranges where you don't have to be wealthy to afford them.

 

[CartesianProduct2014]

Assume I needed to drive 500 miles in an electric car and the freeway speeds are 70 mph.

Can I make it in one charge? If not how long would it take including the recharge?

 

[JT2002TJ]

Assume I needed to drive 500 miles in an electric car and the freeway speeds are 70 mph.

Can I make it in one charge? If not how long would it take including the recharge?

An EV is not for everyone... If you drive 500 miles in one day regularly, an EV isn't for you. Your best options are hybrids, or gas/diesel.

It still seems like if you commute more than 250 miles per day, you have to really do an analysis to see if you can survive with an EV.

Most people don't commute this far, except a few times a month/year. In those instances, if you have an EV, you can either plan your trip around charging, rent a vehicle, or have another vehicle for those trips.

For me, I don't buy new vehicles, I commute a 2003 3 series and get around 26 mpg in the Long Island - NYC rat race. I could benefit from an EV, and have my wife drive the gas vehicle (with her shorter commute) that is used for those longer trips. The only issue is, I don't have any new vehicles, and don't plan on buying one for a while. I have never, and never plan on buying a new vehicle, I only buy CPO or older vehicles.

 

[CartesianProduct2014]

An EV is not for everyone... If you drive 500 miles in one day regularly, an EV isn't for you. Your best options are hybrids, or gas/diesel.

It still seems like if you commute more than 250 miles per day, you have to really do an analysis to see if you can survive with an EV.

I agree. But does anyone have a estimate for my scenario?

 

[44267547]

It's really very simple for me.

When Toyota sells one, then I'll be interested.

Toyota gives you quality, logistics for parts, service, and, if they build it, it means that they think that it will be a mass-market seller in price ranges where you don't have to be wealthy to afford them.

Three things:

1.) I don’t rely on brand loyalty at all, nor will I ever. Toyota doesn’t get a pass because of past reliability. My money goes to the manufacturer that puts out the best possible product in terms of build, reliability and backed by service that I determine, and Toyota isn’t an exception here.

I have three modernized muscle cars sitting in my garage from three different manufacturers, all of which why I like for different reasons, but they all have substantial build quality, have the fun factor and are easily modifiable. Point is, I would never subject myself to one brand, when I like all flavors for different reasons.

2.) Your parts logistics point is sort of flawed, because EV poses totally different segments with availability of parts compared to ICE, which obviously has far more availability.

3.) What are you determine ‘wealthy’ to afford an EV is very subjective. There are many avenues what people will do to afford a vehicle, i.e- trade-in value for previous vehicles, tax incentives, overall cost ratio savings of fuel & mainentance, ect, all are considerations.

 

[JT2002TJ]

I agree. But does anyone have a estimate for my scenario?

You would need to stop for a fast charge at some point during that 500 miles. So add about 15-20 minutes to the trip (assuming there is a fast charger on your route, without adding time getting to the charger, and/or waiting for the charger spot).

I have noticed that on the rest stops I pass through in the NY-MA corridor if the chargers aren't filled by vehicles charging, they are filled by non-EV using the spot because it is closer to the building.

 

[pshufd]

Three things:

1.) I don’t rely on brand loyalty at all, nor will I ever. Toyota doesn’t get a pass because of past reliability. My money goes to the manufacturer that puts out the best possible product in terms of build, reliability and backed by service that I determine, and Toyota isn’t an exception here.

I have three modernized muscle cars sitting in my garage from three different manufacturers, all of which why I like for different reasons, but they all have substantial build quality, have the fun factor and are easily modifiable. Point is, I would never subject myself to one brand, when I like all flavors for different reasons.

2.) Your parts logistics point is sort of flawed, because EV poses totally different segments with availability of parts compared to ICE, which obviously has far more availability.

3.) What are you determine ‘wealthy’ to afford an EV is very subjective. There are many avenues what people will do to afford a vehicle, i.e- trade-in value for previous vehicles, tax incentives, overall cost ratio savings of fuel & mainentance, ect, all are considerations.

I go on brand loyalty. Those that have it want to keep it and put forth more effort to maintain it.

They do get a pass from me until they lose the privilege. I've been with them for 22 years and wish that I had started 40 years ago instead.

The vast majority of people don't buy muscle cars. They buy practical vehicles.

I want to be able to go to AAP to get parts for my vehicle that I can maintain myself. Or go to the local dealer. And I want body shops that can fix my vehicle in the event of a crash.

What is Tesla's target market? The kid out of college with a $40,000 job? Or the older person with assets? Do they go after the Corolla buyer?