Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[GrayFlannel]

But you said no car can refuel in the time it takes for a wee and a coffee. But that’s not true is it.

It was all a bit rhetorical but yeah it can still be proven true.
I can use the facilities and grab a drink in 5 minutes. Will that 5m put on 175m? Probably not. I would still need to kill 10 minutes.

But this is a silly point and added nothing but a distraction to depreciation topic.

Cost is free at work verses £60 a week for my old petrol car.

As I said, I didn’t factor in many things.

I didn’t factor in many things like subsidies, insurance cost, miscellaneous incentive credits, and dealerships marking up the price of fossil fuel cars to cover their exposure on EV sales. No need to go down that rabbit hole my friend.

 

[Apple fanboy]

It was all a bit rhetorical but yeah it can still be proven true.
I can use the facilities and grab a drink in 5 minutes. Will that 5m put on 175m? Probably not. I would still need to kill 10 minutes.

But this is a silly point and added nothing but a distraction to depreciation topic.


As I said, I didn’t factor in many things.

It’s not a depreciation topic though. The topic is “Who has or is planning to get an electric car/EV Talk” as defined in the thread title.

You can’t just pick and choose what we discuss. Or when it is shown what you have written is incorrect change the subject.

But there is no point debating this with you. Clearly those extra 10 minutes (although I can’t ever recall walking to a rest room, washing my hands, going to the coffee shop, ordering a coffee and getting back to my car in 5 minutes) are not worth the switch to a EV for you.

I guess I’ll just keep breathing the pollution from your car so you aren’t put out a few minutes every few weeks.

Sadly there are a lot who think like you do.

 

[GrayFlannel]

It’s not a depreciation topic though. The topic is “Who has or is planning to get an electric car/EV Talk” as defined in the thread title.

You can’t just pick and choose what we discuss.

The conversation at that point (within the thread topic) was about EV depreciation and growing the EV market.

 

[Apple fanboy]

The conversation at that point (within the thread topic) was about EV depreciation and growing the EV market.

The conversation is not defined by you. But like I said I’m not going to debate with you any longer.

 

[GrayFlannel]

…not worth the switch to a EV for you.

I guess I’ll just keep breathing the pollution from your car so you aren’t put out a few minutes every few weeks.

I see EVs are clearly the future and how we get there a valid point of discussion. I might make the EV switch now if it were practical and financially sound.

 

[I7guy]

I see EVs are clearly the future and how we get there a valid point of discussion. I might make the EV switch now if it were practical and financially sound.

The definition of practical and financially sound is very subjective. To me my Tesla is very practical.

My direct expenses for running the car over the last year is $350 for electricity plus $350 for an alignment, due to a pothole. For the $350 I didn’t Have to visit a gas station except for coffee. In the winter my car warms up in the garage with the garage door closed. It’s very convenient and practical.

As far as depreciation I bought it and plan and keeping it for a few years so depreciation isn’t an issue.

But we understand ymmv.

 

[GrayFlannel]

The definition of practical and financially sound is very subjective.

I agree.

As far as depreciation I bought it and plan and keeping it for a few years so depreciation isn’t an issue.

That definitely seems like the smart move. 👍

 

[jz0309]

Yesterday I was at an event with Renault in the Netherlands for the launch of their Renault 5 electric vehicle. I've also had a warm spot in my heart for them ever since I've seen and heard the original Renault 5 Turbo And yes, they had a selection on display of those.

View attachment 2433541

My test drive was short, apparently regular press is only getting it next week, but I managed to do the route they laid out twice to get a better feel for the car. It is just a nippy little city car. Perhaps if I was 24 years younger I'd go to Italy or the South of France in it, but now I prefer a larger, more luxury vehicle. However, for nearly anywhere in the Netherlands, it is fine. Great little car. Never felt sluggish. Standard pedal mapping was a bit weird, the brake super stiff, and the throttle super spongy. But on the second route I played with the settings and changed the drive selector to sport, and switched to 'almost one pedal driving' which is their gear lever in B, and it was fun. Yes, you do have to press the brake pedal at that final moment, but actually, it felt natural. And I got there with my daughter in my Porsche Panamera and not our Polestar 2, so was in the mode of using the brakes anyway.


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The in-car infotainment system is based on the excellent Google Android Automotive Operating System. I'm used to that from our Polestar and really like it. Naturally, this version was skinned for Renault, but the features remained the same. I did notice they are using the latest generation chipsets, it was super snappy like on a current modern smartphone. And as it is AAOS it integrates naturally with iOS and Android. Apple CarPlay is also supported, but I don't use that as AAOS is so good as it is. But those wanting Apple Music instead of Spotify can use that.


View attachment 2433539

The interior room was surprisingly spacious. The materials used are splendid, nice soft, and no scratchy plastics. Nice mood lighting as well. But I would definitely tick the audio upgrade, as the standard system is only just about passable if you listen to MW radio. The rear seating is slightly elevated, but my daughter liked that as it gives a good view of the road ahead.

The front seats are super comfortable, my choice would be the blue with yellow seats. Although to be honest, if we are getting one as a second car, it likely be the Alpine version.


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Off EV topic for 1 post: R5 indeed was very iconic and popular back in the days, reminded me of some photos I took in 1979 on the Nurburgring, exact location I do not remember though but Brunnchen comes to mind ... and I think it was called the R5 Cup, photos are not great quality but though you might get a kick out of them

 

[Tagbert]

Nope, not wrong at all. A gasoline car can add 350 mi in 8m and never need to leave the pump.

But how often do you need to do that? I do about one longer road trip a year. I’m not going to arrange my life and my car choices around that.

With my EV, my ‘tank’ is full every morning. That 8 minutes and the time it takes to drive to where gas stations are seems an imposition.

 

[Michael Scrip]

But how often do you need to do that? I do about one longer road trip a year. I’m not going to arrange my life and my car choices around that.

With my EV, my ‘tank’ is full every morning. That 8 minutes and the time it takes to drive to where gas stations are seems an imposition.

Exactly. Most people take a road trip once or twice a year... so there's maybe two weeks of long-distance travel in a year.

But the other 50 weeks a year it's mostly local driving.

Of course if you live in an apartment or condo you might not be able to charge at home.

I'd love to see a Venn diagram of people who live in apartment who also take dozens of 600 mile road trips every year.

 

[dmr727]

I'd love to see a Venn diagram of people who live in apartment who also take dozens of 600 mile road trips every year.

They all seem to love making their opinions known in threads like these. 😂

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I was referring to the entire EV technology improvements and being optimistic about a genuine problem with growing the EV market popularity through voluntary adoption. The EV depreciation issue is a settled fact.

No car on this planet charges faster than a person who uses a restroom and grabs a drink. That’s preposterous and even if remotely accurate it is irrelevant.

By the way, just like the 2023 Polestar 2 Long Range, a two year old Taycan is even worse with a trade value of about $45k…slightly more if sold privately. That factors to a 63% drop in value. That would put a buyer upside down on a loan by $22k-ish. A cash buyer will have to kiss it goodbye.

And Parkers says an Audi e-Tron GT will lose 50% in value in the first year. None of these examples work in your advantage. As a matter of fact The Polestar 2 LR, Taycan, and e-Tron are the top offenders of depreciation.

The depreciation exists partly because consumers are terrified to buy them secondhand. It’s not because the technology is poor or lacking, it’s because demand is being affected by people believing every meme and fuel lobby post created on social media. My experience yesterday talking to some blokes at a kids party was like a full blown social media stereotype which I’d been through so many times in written form. I was completely prepared yet completely wasting my time.

 

[GrayFlannel]

The depreciation exists partly because consumers are terrified to buy them secondhand. It’s not because the technology is poor or lacking, it’s because demand is being affected by people believing every meme and fuel lobby post created on social media. My experience yesterday talking to some blokes at a kids party was like a full blown social media stereotype which I’d been through so many times in written form. I was completely prepared yet completely wasting my time.

There’s plenty of available literature on the depreciation problem and the reasons for it. See below.

EVs are currently experiencing what it calls “exceptional depreciation.” Over the past two years, the residual value of electric cars (how much a car is worth after three years) has dropped sharply. While a typical new EV might retain 60% of its value after three years in 2022, that figure has since plunged to just 35%. In other words, a £50,000 electric car is now likely to be worth only £17,500 after three years, instead of £30,000.

Several factors contribute to the accelerated depreciation of EVs:

1. Weak Consumer Demand
   One of the primary reasons behind falling used EV prices is a slump in consumer demand. Despite growing interest in electric cars, high upfront costs continue to deter many potential buyers, even for second-hand models. As demand weakens, it drives down the value of used EVs.
   
   
2. Manufacturer Discounts on New EVs
   With slower-than-expected sales of new electric vehicles, manufacturers have begun offering more aggressive discounts to attract buyers. While this is good news for those in the market for a new EV, it further devalues used EVs. When new models are available at discounted prices, the appeal of purchasing a second-hand vehicle diminishes, pushing used prices even lower.
   
   
3. Technology Advancement
   The rapid pace of innovation in EV technology also plays a role. As newer models with better range, faster charging, and more advanced features hit the market, older EVs quickly lose their appeal. The perceived obsolescence of older models can lead to faster depreciation compared to petrol or diesel cars, which tend to see slower technological advances.
   
   
4. Government Incentives and Policy Uncertainty
   Government incentives, such as UK salary sacrifice schemes, tax breaks or grants for EV buyers, have boosted new EV sales. However, uncertainty around future policies, including changes in subsidies or tax rates, adds to the volatility in both the new and used EV markets. Some potential buyers are hesitant to commit to purchasing a used EV, fearing that they may miss out on future incentives.

Those looking to purchase a second-hand electric vehicle may find some good deals due to the falling prices. However, buyers should also be cautious about further depreciation, especially if they plan to sell the vehicle in a few years. The rapid pace of innovation in the EV market could mean that today’s models will lose value even faster as more advanced vehicles become available.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

There’s plenty of available literature on the depreciation problem and the reasons for it. See below.



Those looking to purchase a second-hand electric vehicle may find some good deals due to the falling prices. However, buyers should also be cautious about further depreciation, especially if they plan to sell the vehicle in a few years. The rapid pace of innovation in the EV market could mean that today’s models will lose value even faster as more advanced vehicles become available.

I know, I’ve read so many articles on it and am more than aware why EV’s are depreciating faster than equivalent ICE vehicles. Notice I used the word ‘partly’ and this was a deliberate point.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Off EV topic for 1 post: R5 indeed was very iconic and popular back in the days, reminded me of some photos I took in 1979 on the Nurburgring, exact location I do not remember though but Brunnchen comes to mind ... and I think it was called the R5 Cup, photos are not great quality but though you might get a kick out of them View attachment 2433799 View attachment 2433798

Love it, fun little cars they were. And the new Renault 5 full EV is designed very much so to be a modern-day lookalike of that classic. I'd not have any problem driving one for everyday short trips. Although saying that, I'm using my other EV for that in the Netherlands, way more healthy. Feels like I've always got the wind in my back.

Mid engined shimano steps 5000 with 418Wh detachable battery 40 Nm torque, 7 gears and front/rear disc brakes. Recharges whilst I'm asleep, gives me a rang of 80 km, max speed of 25 km/h. But strictly need to use pedal power through a force and rotation sensor. The more you pedal, the more support it will give. A very natural assistance system.

 

[hobowankenobi]

I had an interesting conversation at a kids birthday party yesterday while stood around chatting cars with some fellow Dads. One said he can fill his 2.2l diesel and go 600 miles and doesn’t have to ‘stand around like an absolute lemon charging a silly Noddy car’… I asked him why he doesn’t stop for a break on a continuous 600 mile drive? He said, he doesn’t drive 600 miles in one go but it’s back and forth to work.. I pointed out that we plug our EV in overnight and while it’s not being used it’s charging. His face just looked at me in disgust. Then he told me I pay 3 times more than him as that’s what it is with EV’s as electricity is more expensive than fuel. I showed him our Octopus Energy app and his instantly became suspicious that we had a special business rate etc.

Another Dad told me EV’s need new brakes every 5k miles because they are heavier on braking due to their weight and tyres only last 10k miles. I explained regenerative braking and told them we’ve done 13k in ours and still have 7mm of tread on our tyres and brakes are fine. They just didn’t want to know any of it though because they just don’t like EV’s.

This is what we are up against, a public terrified of change and who believe absolutely everything they read on the internet.

Funny (and sad) stuff.

My 2018 Model 3 went 100,000 miles without need of brakes....and it might make it to close to 200K depending on driving habits. The amount of self-serving misinformation out there is staggering.

 

[JT2002TJ]

A few years before I got an EV, I was convinced that the only way EVs could be successful was if they used common batteries that could be hot swapped at battery stations. You could pay to get 3 different ranges based on needs. I still think it would be cool, but in reality of owning 2 EVs now is, it’s not necessary. It’s also too late as we are well beyond a common battery design now.

Real world experience makes you realize that all the things you think are design flaws really aren’t flaws, they’re just unnecessary complexities.

I’m 1.5 years into EV only life. I can’t and won’t go back.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

But how often do you need to do that? I do about one longer road trip a year. I’m not going to arrange my life and my car choices around that.

With my EV, my ‘tank’ is full every morning. That 8 minutes and the time it takes to drive to where gas stations are seems an imposition.

But if you think about it, if you fill the tank and then drive home and park your car after driving 30 miles, you still have a nearly full tank of fuel in your car the next morning. The circumstances for people around the world are different. For some an EV is more practical, but for others an ICE automobile is more practical. A lot of people live in apartments and other places without garages and have to park on the streets, or the driveways. Some others can't afford a car and ride trains or buses, or even car-pool. Some others (like I) live in places where where it gets extremely cold, electricity is very expensive, and park outdoors (I leave the 2-car garage for parking a small UTV with a snow plow, and a few other toys). The travel trailer, utility trailer, boat, and so on are parked outdoors.

A lot of people outside the city have generators, lawn mowers and tractors, chainsaws, extra fuel in the storage sheds, and so on. But what is most important for all automobile drivers and owners is to understand that there are numerous reasons why some find EVs more practical than ICE automobiles, and vice versa. There also are other factors: needs, wants, convenience, and economical reasons. For example, if one already has a car that is in good mechanical shape and already has been paid for, one has to consider the reasons why a new car-regardless of type-would be better than the existing one. I sold a 2012 Toyota Corolla LE car a couple of weeks ago. It had 65,000 miles, but I haven't driven it for a couple of years. The yearly maintenance for this car has been less than $100.00 (two oil/filter changes each year, and cabin air filter each year, plus wiper blades and things like that). My wife and I have three vehicles parked outside (2023, 2013, and 2010 models-all paid for), and we not longer needed the Corolla.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

But if you think about it, if you fill the tank and then drive home and park your car after driving 30 miles, you still have a nearly full tank of fuel in your car the next morning. The circumstances for people around the world are different. For some an EV is more practical, but for others an ICE automobile is more practical. A lot of people live in apartments and other places without garages and have to park on the streets, or the driveways. Some others can't afford a car and ride trains or buses, or even car-pool. Some others (like I) live in places where where it gets extremely cold, electricity is very expensive, and park outdoors (I leave the 2-car garage for parking a small UTV with a snow plow, and a few other toys)-other than a travel trailer, boat, and so on are parked outdoors.

A lot of people outside the city have generators, lawn mowers and tractors, chainsaws, extra fuel in the storage sheds, and so on. But what is most important for all automobile drivers and owners is to understand that there are numerous reasons why some find EVs more practical than ICE automobiles, and vice versa. There also are other factors: needs, wants, convenience, and economical reasons. For example, if one already has a car that is in good mechanical shape and already has been paid for, one has to consider the reasons why a new car-regardless of type-would be better than the existing one. I sold a 2012 Toyota Corolla LE car a couple of weeks ago. It had 65,000 miles, but I haven't driven it for a couple of years. The yearly maintenance for this car has been less than $100.00 (two oil/filter changes each year, and cabin air filter each year, plus wiper blades and things like that).

Absolutely, nobody argues that it is the best for absolutely everyone.

If I couldn't charge at my home, I wouldn't get one yet. The convenience of home charging is the big game changer for me, and the cost savings (About GBP 7500 per year) in fuel alone is welcomed. And wouldn't be anything like that when public charging, although still significant.

But that is changing, I now live in a country where on road charging is pretty good. Flat owners associations have charging points in the parking always on the agenda, and for new developments it is mandatory.

Remote areas like yours are respectfully a statistical anomaly considering the big picture. And yes, you will have different needs, just like you will have different needs for heating the house, getting rid of sewage, etc. And even for your ICE cars as many will have means to plug them in (ironically) and warm the engine etc. It is not representative of the majority of people.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

A few years before I got an EV, I was convinced that the only way EVs could be successful was if they used common batteries that could be hot swapped at battery stations. You could pay to get 3 different ranges based on needs. I still think it would be cool, but in reality of owning 2 EVs now is, it’s not necessary. It’s also too late as we are well beyond a common battery design now.

Real world experience makes you realize that all the things you think are design flaws really aren’t flaws, they’re just unnecessary complexities.

I’m 1.5 years into EV only life. I can’t and won’t go back.

Strongly agreed it is a non issue; range, charging, driving pleasure, it is all there. And more and more battery repair shops appearing as well to fix individual cells where necessary. After all, they are just batteries, not some alien technology. This development is good for continued use and the second hand market.

Sure, when my engine kicks in, and it's warm and revs through, it sounds great. But at the same time, it is sluggish (relatively, and I'm talking about Porsche engine so to most ICE anything but sluggish) to get to the revs, noisy, not as smooth, got to make stops to get petrol, heck even got to go across the border as I save €80 per tank full of fuel. I can't wait until I will change my car, like my wife's car, to a full EV.

 

[decafjava]

Funny (and sad) stuff.

My 2018 Model 3 went 100,000 miles without need of brakes....and it might make it to close to 200K depending on driving habits. The amount of self-serving misinformation out there is staggering.

Well, after living through Covid I am not surprised at all. I heard on the radio that one Swiss city, Lausanne, will be shifting all public transport, including buses, to electric by 2030. While trams and trains are electric there are still diesel buses in use. Any bit will help.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Here‘s some encouraging news.

Asian battery makers are racing to develop new generations of “superfast charging” cells for electric vehicles that will make refuelling as fast as filling up cars with petrol or diesel.

With the global EV industry seeking to win over sceptical consumers put off by long charge times and “range anxiety”, China’s CATL and Gotion High-tech are this year unveiling batteries that can be charged from 10 per cent to 80 per cent in under 10 minutes.

The goal is to charge an EV in about five minutes, making the experience virtually indistinguishable from filling up a car using traditional fuels. -FT

 

[JT2002TJ]

Here‘s some encouraging news.

As nice as it would be to be able to charge in 5 minutes, and it is important as EV adoption increases, right now when you are on a road trip, 5 minute charging would actually make your stop longer if you need to use the restroom, get food/coffee. You will now have to sit in the car for those 5 minutes and then move the car, park and do your business.

Currently, as long as there are free chargers, 15-20 minutes takes you the same amount of time as you plug in and do your business, then return to a vehicle charged enough for your next 2-3 hours.

If your goal is to drive 3-4 hours non-stop, a 5 minute full charge would be nice. My wife and 3 year old would kill me, but it would be nice.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

As nice as it would be to be able to charge in 5 minutes, and it is important as EV adoption increases, right now when you are on a road trip, 5 minute charging would actually make your stop longer if you need to use the restroom, get food/coffee. You will now have to sit in the car for those 5 minutes and then move the car, park and do your business.

Exactly, that. It would then bring in the need to slow down charging to avoid additional charges for leaving your car where you don't need it. And thus increase the time a stop takes as you have to wait for it.

As good as it sounds, it is actually a stupid and unnecessary idea.

Currently, as long as there are free chargers, 15-20 minutes takes you the same amount of time as you plug in and do your business, then return to a vehicle charged enough for your next 2-3 hours.

If your goal is to drive 3-4 hours non-stop, a 5 minute full charge would be nice. My wife and 3 year old would kill me, but it would be nice.

If something happens you can be liable, it is very unwise to drive like that.

 

[GrayFlannel]

As nice as it would be to be able to charge in 5 minutes….

Lowering EV prices and longer ranges are more important to adoption than recharging speed but making “refueling” indistinguishable with fossil fuels will go a long way in EV ownership no longer be regarded less convenient than owning a fossil fuel car. However the key to five minute charging is safety to prevent thermo runaway and battery fires.

According to experts that will be more than enough for consumers, and that is why electric vehicles are going to win in the end. It’s all good news for EVs.