Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[cyb3rdud3]

Just focusing on charging and batteries alone…charging stations have increased on average of 16% each year since 2014. Adding to that charging ports have increased 17% each year over the same time period. Battery prices have decreased in price roughly 97% over the last 25 years. A 75kWh batttery today is around $13k whereas 25 years ago it would cost $600k.

Ok, I thought you were talking about technology iterations of the cars. Yes many more public chargers, that is a good thing right? And ofcourse 800v architecture helping even faster charging, although 400v with the right curve can be pretty good as well.

As you know my position is that the EV tech still needs a 10 - 25 years to overcome their current physical and financial disadvantages. So, since you’re an EV advocate I‘ll defer to your experience. If EV car tech improvements are non-existent then maybe I’m wrong. Perhaps it will take far longer than a generation and in the meanwhile new EV car values will continue to depreciate at a staggering rate. Yikes that will sure hurt the market and directly hurt owners and buyers. I’m not as pessimistic as you though.

Nah not at all. This is a political and lobby issue. And there are huge geo differences. In Europe today the charging network is good enough for as good as anyones needs. The cars charge faster than you can go to the toilet and grab a drink when on a road trip. Smaller, less luxury cars, have also become available from brands like Renault, Peugeot, Smart and Alpine. For those who bought new cars anyway, the cost isn't an issue to get in. For those who bought second hand, the iterations that are of interest (as I mentioned earlier since about model year 2019 the decent cars be made) are entering secondhand markets. But despite your claims of staggering depreciation, they are still to expensive for the secondhand market crowd, so that is a good indicator that maybe it isn't so that there is more heavy depreciation. Also four years back, there weren't the cheaper smaller models available, so that will have to wait a while for the secondhand market crowd. Just a natural progression. But what I notice with people around me, with EVs they are inclined to keep the cars longer, much less technology to fail, and since most of them are connected updates are coming, and they are cheap to own.

Structural technology improvements like 800v architecture is nice, and my next one will likely have that, but if you look at an Audi eTron with an as good as flat curve, you can see that you can charge superfast with the current mainstream 400v as well.

My opinions are naturally skewed towards Europe, we have good multi-brand charger competition and density, we have standardisation on the same charging plug, we have had laws that ensure building regs are updated to include chargers with parking spaces, and we have a good selection of multiple car brands at all price points to choose from. And voila as good as any of my friends and family who bought new cars have got into EVs. Keeping the ICE cars for their weekend toys and trackday toys. Those who are secondhand car buyers but with bigger budgets also make the transitions, typically ending up with Porsche Taycans or Audi eTrons as they are hitting the markets.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Yesterday I was at an event with Renault in the Netherlands for the launch of their Renault 5 electric vehicle. I've also had a warm spot in my heart for them ever since I've seen and heard the original Renault 5 Turbo And yes, they had a selection on display of those.

My test drive was short, apparently regular press is only getting it next week, but I managed to do the route they laid out twice to get a better feel for the car. It is just a nippy little city car. Perhaps if I was 24 years younger I'd go to Italy or the South of France in it, but now I prefer a larger, more luxury vehicle. However, for nearly anywhere in the Netherlands, it is fine. Great little car. Never felt sluggish. Standard pedal mapping was a bit weird, the brake super stiff, and the throttle super spongy. But on the second route I played with the settings and changed the drive selector to sport, and switched to 'almost one pedal driving' which is their gear lever in B, and it was fun. Yes, you do have to press the brake pedal at that final moment, but actually, it felt natural. And I got there with my daughter in my Porsche Panamera and not our Polestar 2, so was in the mode of using the brakes anyway.

The in-car infotainment system is based on the excellent Google Android Automotive Operating System. I'm used to that from our Polestar and really like it. Naturally, this version was skinned for Renault, but the features remained the same. I did notice they are using the latest generation chipsets, it was super snappy like on a current modern smartphone. And as it is AAOS it integrates naturally with iOS and Android. Apple CarPlay is also supported, but I don't use that as AAOS is so good as it is. But those wanting Apple Music instead of Spotify can use that.

The interior room was surprisingly spacious. The materials used are splendid, nice soft, and no scratchy plastics. Nice mood lighting as well. But I would definitely tick the audio upgrade, as the standard system is only just about passable if you listen to MW radio. The rear seating is slightly elevated, but my daughter liked that as it gives a good view of the road ahead.

The front seats are super comfortable, my choice would be the blue with yellow seats. Although to be honest, if we are getting one as a second car, it likely be the Alpine version.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

I had an interesting conversation at a kids birthday party yesterday while stood around chatting cars with some fellow Dads. One said he can fill his 2.2l diesel and go 600 miles and doesn’t have to ‘stand around like an absolute lemon charging a silly Noddy car’… I asked him why he doesn’t stop for a break on a continuous 600 mile drive? He said, he doesn’t drive 600 miles in one go but it’s back and forth to work.. I pointed out that we plug our EV in overnight and while it’s not being used it’s charging. His face just looked at me in disgust. Then he told me I pay 3 times more than him as that’s what it is with EV’s as electricity is more expensive than fuel. I showed him our Octopus Energy app and his instantly became suspicious that we had a special business rate etc.

Another Dad told me EV’s need new brakes every 5k miles because they are heavier on braking due to their weight and tyres only last 10k miles. I explained regenerative braking and told them we’ve done 13k in ours and still have 7mm of tread on our tyres and brakes are fine. They just didn’t want to know any of it though because they just don’t like EV’s.

This is what we are up against, a public terrified of change and who believe absolutely everything they read on the internet.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I had an interesting conversation at a kids birthday party yesterday while stood around chatting cars with some fellow Dads. One said he can fill his 2.2l diesel and go 600 miles and doesn’t have to ‘stand around like an absolute lemon charging a silly Noddy car’… I asked him why he doesn’t stop for a break on a continuous 600 mile drive? He said, he doesn’t drive 600 miles in one go but it’s back and forth to work.. I pointed out that we plug our EV in overnight and while it’s not being used it’s charging. His face just looked at me in disgust. Then he told me I pay 3 times more than him as that’s what it is with EV’s as electricity is more expensive than fuel. I showed him our Octopus Energy app and his instantly became suspicious that we had a special business rate etc.

Another Dad told me EV’s need new brakes every 5k miles because they are heavier on braking due to their weight and tyres only last 10k miles. I explained regenerative braking and told them we’ve done 13k in ours and still have 7mm of tread on our tyres and brakes are fine. They just didn’t want to know any of it though because they just don’t like EV’s.

This is what we are up against, a public terrified of change and who believe absolutely everything they read on the internet.

Unfortunately this is exactly the problem. People don’t all embrace change.
The it needs another 20 years until it is developed enough to work properly stuff you can read even in this thread is just ridiculous.

The majority of journeys do not require any more range than cars had 10 years ago.
My BMW i3s which has one of the smaller batteries these days, gets me to work and back fine. I only need to charge once a week (although I usually top up and charge twice).
I’m sat working whilst it charges.

If we didn’t have (free) charging at work, I’d charge whilst I was sleeping like most do.

When I do need to stop and charge on the road it’s much better than it used to be. Chargers are everywhere and easy enough to find with apps and car software.
I’m usually ready for a stop after 150 miles anyway. By the time I’ve had a wee and a coffee the car is nearly done anyway. Again as mine is an older car, newer cars would probably be done in that time.

It’s really not a big deal. But of course those scared of change will continue to tell us that they don’t work for any reason they have read somewhere. It’s sad that more people aren’t willing to make the change. Meanwhile we all have to breath the rubbish their cars chug out.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Ok, I thought you were talking about technology iterations of the cars. Yes many more public chargers, that is a good thing right? And ofcourse 800v architecture helping even faster charging, although 400v with the right curve can be pretty good as well.

Nah not at all. This is a political and lobby issue. And there are huge geo differences. In Europe today the charging network is good enough for as good as anyones needs. The cars charge faster than you can go to the toilet and grab a drink when on a road trip. Smaller, less luxury cars, have also become available from brands like Renault, Peugeot, Smart and Alpine. For those who bought new cars anyway, the cost isn't an issue to get in. For those who bought second hand, the iterations that are of interest (as I mentioned earlier since about model year 2019 the decent cars be made) are entering secondhand markets. But despite your claims of staggering depreciation, they are still to expensive for the secondhand market crowd, so that is a good indicator that maybe it isn't so that there is more heavy depreciation. Also four years back, there weren't the cheaper smaller models available, so that will have to wait a while for the secondhand market crowd. Just a natural progression. But what I notice with people around me, with EVs they are inclined to keep the cars longer, much less technology to fail, and since most of them are connected updates are coming, and they are cheap to own.

Structural technology improvements like 800v architecture is nice, and my next one will likely have that, but if you look at an Audi eTron with an as good as flat curve, you can see that you can charge superfast with the current mainstream 400v as well.

My opinions are naturally skewed towards Europe, we have good multi-brand charger competition and density, we have standardisation on the same charging plug, we have had laws that ensure building regs are updated to include chargers with parking spaces, and we have a good selection of multiple car brands at all price points to choose from. And voila as good as any of my friends and family who bought new cars have got into EVs. Keeping the ICE cars for their weekend toys and trackday toys. Those who are secondhand car buyers but with bigger budgets also make the transitions, typically ending up with Porsche Taycans or Audi eTrons as they are hitting the markets.

I was referring to the entire EV technology improvements and being optimistic about a genuine problem with growing the EV market popularity through voluntary adoption. The EV depreciation issue is a settled fact.

No car on this planet charges faster than a person who uses a restroom and grabs a drink. That’s preposterous and even if remotely accurate it is irrelevant.

By the way, just like the 2023 Polestar 2 Long Range, a two year old Taycan is even worse with a trade value of about $45k…slightly more if sold privately. That factors to a 63% drop in value. That would put a buyer upside down on a loan by $22k-ish. A cash buyer will have to kiss it goodbye.

And Parkers says an Audi e-Tron GT will lose 50% in value in the first year. None of these examples work in your advantage. As a matter of fact The Polestar 2 LR, Taycan, and e-Tron are the top offenders of depreciation.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I was referring to the entire EV technology improvements and being optimistic about a genuine problem with growing the EV market popularity through voluntary adoption. The EV depreciation issue is a settled fact.

No car on this planet charges faster than a person who uses a restroom and grabs a drink. That’s preposterous and even if remotely accurate it is irrelevant.

By the way, just like the 2023 Polestar 2 Long Range, a two year old Taycan is even worse with a trade value of about $45k…slightly more if sold privately. That factors to a 63% drop in value. That would put a buyer upside down on a loan by $22k-ish. A cash buyer will have to kiss it goodbye.

And Parkers says an Audi e-Tron GT will lose 50% in value in the first year. None of these examples work in your advantage. As a matter of fact The Polestar 2 LR, Taycan, and e-Tron are the top offenders of depreciation.

The new Tesla can add 175 miles range in 15 minutes.

The new 2024 Tesla Model 3 makes the list of fastest charging EVs. The Model 3 Long Range can charge up to 250kW. And for Tesla owners it's particularly easy because the recently updated Supercharger network offers 250kW speeds. The Long Range can add 175 miles of range in just 15 minutes.

Isn’t that how long it takes for a comfort break and grab a coffee?

So it appears your statement is wrong again.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I was referring to the entire EV technology improvements and being optimistic about a genuine problem with growing the EV market popularity through voluntary adoption. The EV depreciation issue is a settled fact.

What does that actually mean specifically. On the second point, Yes all cars depreciate. That really is unique to EVs. Compare any car of similar price and power and you’ll see similar depreciation.

No car on this planet charges faster than a person who uses a restroom and grabs a drink. That’s preposterous and even if remotely accurate it is irrelevant.

Ahem, no that is totally true and first hand real life experience.

By the way, just like the 2023 Polestar 2 Long Range, a two year old Taycan is even worse with a trade value of about $45k…slightly more if sold privately. That factors to a 63% drop in value. That would put a buyer upside down on a loan by $22k-ish. A cash buyer will have to kiss it goodbye.

Nonsense, you don’t have to kiss it goodbye. It’s what it is. Again you are looking at nearly new cars for depreciation. That is the silly thing to do. The moment you drive out of the forecourt you take the biggest hit financially. That is if you care about that. And if you do, then surely the smart thing to do is buy one second hand that had the hit, if you can truly get it for that price and are happy with a used vehicle then surely that is a good thing.

You seem to be arguing with yourself here.

And Parkers says an Audi e-Tron GT will lose 50% in value in the first year. None of these examples work in your advantage. As a matter of fact The Polestar 2 LR, Taycan, and e-Tron are the top offenders of depreciation.

50% is totally expected. Nothing unusual. My Porsche was 187K its now about 25K. Just the cost of running a car. It’s no an investment.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

The new Tesla can add 175 miles range in 15 minutes.

The new 2024 Tesla Model 3 makes the list of fastest charging EVs. The Model 3 Long Range can charge up to 250kW. And for Tesla owners it's particularly easy because the recently updated Supercharger network offers 250kW speeds. The Long Range can add 175 miles of range in just 15 minutes.

Isn’t that how long it takes for a comfort break and grab a coffee?

So it appears your statement is wrong again.

It definitely is, but it’s clear that some here have no desire to listen and learn from experience instead they’ve made up their mind and argue against it from a position of no experience whatsoever. There is a word for people like that.

 

[GrayFlannel]

The new Tesla can add 175 miles range in 15 minutes.



So it appears your statement is wrong again.

Nope, not wrong at all. A gasoline car can add 350 mi in 8m and never need to leave the pump.

 

[diamond.g]

Nope, not wrong at all. A gasoline car can add 350 mi in 8m and never need to leave the pump.

Trying to get a "full tank" in an EV when travelling is a mistake. Bottom half of pack charges faster than top half.

 

[GrayFlannel]

It definitely is, but it’s clear that some here have no desire to listen and learn from experience instead they’ve made up their mind and argue against it from a position of no experience whatsoever. There is a word for people like that.

This was addressed the last time it was mentioned. One does not need the experience of buying and living in a trailer park to know in advance that would not be suitable. Nor would one need the experience of buying an asset that will lose 50% of it’s value when other products depreciate < 50% of that. One group may reasonably accept those factual terms and another group may reasonably reject them as a poor financial decision.

But those two choice does not negate the fact that EV depreciation is a widely recognized marketing and adoption problem. No amount of ignoring or denying changes those facts. I’m optimistic those fact will change in the near-ish future but you seem to disagree with even that.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Trying to get a "full tank" in an EV when travelling is a mistake. Bottom half of pack charges faster than top half.

I don’t believe @Apple fanboy point is to reach a full charge. His point is that a 15m charge will add about 175m in range.

 

[Apple fanboy]

No car on this planet charges faster than a person who uses a restroom and grabs a drink. That’s preposterous and even if remotely accurate it is irrelevant.

Here is what you said. Now you say how many miles an ICE vehicle can add? That’s a different argument.

So yes you are wrong.

Why am I not surprised. You said no car on this planet, you are proved incorrect then you just add a different (irrelevant) argument.

You clearly know more about how EV’s work than the EV owners on here.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I don’t believe @Apple fanboy point is to reach a full charge. His point is that a 15m charge will add about 175m in range.

Indeed. Stopping 15 minutes every 175 miles (depending on traffic) is the minimum my bladder requires these days.

 

[jz0309]

This discussion about charging/pit stop is totally going nowhere …
some are happy to take a 15-20 min break every 2 hrs and others are not. Simple as that.

when I was younger and we took the kids on a road trip, every hour or 2 we had to stop, now that I’m older, every 2 hours or so I have to stop and happily take a 15 min walk …

 

[Apple fanboy]

This discussion about charging/pit stop is totally going nowhere …
some are happy to take a 15-20 min break every 2 hrs and others are not. Simple as that.

when I was younger and we took the kids on a road trip, every hour or 2 we had to stop, now that I’m older, every 2 hours or so I have to stop and happily take a 15 min walk …

A lot safer to take regular breaks too.

 

[JT2002TJ]

At the risk of speaking on deaf ears…

The goal of charging an EV on a trip is not to get to 80%-100%. The goal is to get you to the next nature break/charger. Tesla’s route guidance works so you don’t even have to look at the battery %, just the minimum charge time at your stop. Usually it will have you stop and charge for 15-20 minutes which gives you enough range for an additional 120-150 miles. It assumes you will need to stop every 2-3 hours.

By staying in the lower part of the battery, you maximize the charging speed.

What people are saying is, the mentality that you have to charge to “full” is something that goes away once you have had an EV for some time. This range anxiety is something that people who borrow, rent, or temporarily use an EV have that most seasoned owners don’t even think about.

Yes, there are charging deserts, but these are not the norm, and if they are in the route of your trip, you can either use your ICE (if you still have one), or rent a car for that trip.

I have 2 EVs, I charge them both nightly. I don’t even look at the state of charge anymore (winter or summer).

 

[GrayFlannel]

What does that actually mean specifically. On the second point, Yes all cars depreciate. That really is unique to EVs. Compare any car of similar price and power and you’ll see similar depreciation.

When it comes to depreciation EVs lose more value than any other type. On average EV lose roughly 49% of their value in 3 years where fossil fuel cars are roughly 38%. Those are not similar values.

Nonsense, you don’t have to kiss it goodbye.

Yes one does.
Purchase 1 - $100k car depreciates to roughly $50k value on year three.
Purchase 2 - $100k car depreciates to roughly $60k value on year three.

50% is totally expected. Nothing unusual.

That needs no reply.

 

[Apple fanboy]

When it comes to depreciation EVs lose more value than any other type. On average EV lose roughly 49% of their value in 3 years where fossil fuel cars are roughly 38%. Those are not similar values.



Yes one does.
Purchase 1 - $100k car depreciates to roughly $50k value on year three.
Purchase 2 - $100k car depreciates to roughly $60k value on year three.




That needs no reply.

So the difference in 3 years is 11%? Have you factored in the difference in servicing and petrol costs in those 3 years? I’m sure you will have…..

 

[GrayFlannel]

Here is what you said. Now you say how many miles an ICE vehicle can add? That’s a different argument.

So yes you are wrong.

Why am I not surprised. You said no car on this planet, you are proved incorrect then you just add a different (irrelevant) argument.

You clearly know more about how EV’s work than the EV owners on here.

Yes. In order to get 175m on a charge a driver must invent a way to spend 15m.

It takes 8m to refuel a gasoline car that will give a range of 350m or more. No excuse is necessary to cover those other 7 minutes.

But neither of these facts are relevant to the resale value and if they were it would not benefit EVs.

 

[GrayFlannel]

So the difference in 3 years is 11%? Have you factored in the difference in servicing and petrol costs in those 3 years? I’m sure you will have…..

I didn’t factor in many things like subsidies, insurance cost, miscellaneous incentive credits, and dealerships marking up the price of fossil fuel cars to cover their exposure on EV sales. No need to go down that rabbit hole my friend.

 

[GrayFlannel]

The goal is to get you to the next … charger.

Yes, I agree and think most do too.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I didn’t factor in many things like subsidies, insurance cost, miscellaneous incentive credits, and dealerships marking up the price of fossil fuel cars to cover their exposure on EV sales. No need to go down that rabbit hole my friend.

Most of those are specific to the US. But petrol verses electric costs is a significant factor whatever the country.
I’m not saying I’m happy with depreciation btw. That’s why I bought my car second hand. So I don’t take the biggest hit.

 

[GrayFlannel]

But petrol verses electric costs is a significant factor whatever the country.
I’m not saying I’m happy with depreciation btw. That’s why I bought my car second hand. So I don’t take the biggest hit.

Completely reasonable. I agree. Thank you.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Yes. In order to get 175m on a charge a driver must invent a way to spend 15m.

It takes 8m to refuel a gasoline car that will give a range of 350m or more. No excuse is necessary to cover those other 7 minutes.

But neither of these facts are relevant to the resale value and if they were it would not benefit EVs.

But you said no car can refuel in the time it takes for a wee and a coffee. But that’s not true is it.

It is quicker to fill with petrol for sure. But remember 95% of charging isn’t done like that.

So to ‘charge’ my old petrol car I have to drive to the petrol station (15 minutes). Fill up (8 minutes). Drive home (15 minutes).

Total time 38 minutes.

To charge my EV I plug it in when I get to work. Total time taken 1 minute.

Same if I charge at home. 1 minute.

Cost is free at work verses £60 a week for my old petrol car.

I know which I prefer.