Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[jz0309]

Yes for those that can’t charge at home things are more difficult. You mention garages, but of course a drive is perfectly adequate as well. My car never gets in the garage as it’s full of other things.
But in the UK at least they are no longer building apartments (or flats as we call them) without provision for parking and charging.
There are also various council run schemes where cars can be charged on the road (charging posts or gullies for people to run cables from their house to the road).

With most people having a commute of less than 20 miles per day, it’s one 15-20 charge stop a week.

Also in the UK a lot of those living in buildings with no car parking often don’t own cars. Those sort of houses are most likely in cities with good public transport etc.

And requirements for providing EV charge options (for apartments) might exist (at least in CA), I do not know but I’m guessing that unless the builder of apartments/flats are forced to do so, they won’t as it costs them money.
In CA for all I know, every new single family home has to have solar and I think that is in place for several years already, there should also be a requirement to put a 240 circuit/outlet in to prep for EVs (and let’s not start another 110/240V here ), those are not common in homes yet.

 

[Apple fanboy]

And requirements for providing EV charge options (for apartments) might exist (at least in CA), I do not know but I’m guessing that unless the builder of apartments/flats are forced to do so, they won’t as it costs them money.
In CA for all I know, every new single family home has to have solar and I think that is in place for several years already, there should also be a requirement to put a 240 circuit/outlet in to prep for EVs (and let’s not start another 110/240V here ), those are not common in homes yet.

All our sockets are 240v in the UK. Always have been.

 

[hobowankenobi]

With the current state of battery tech, an EV paired with a reliable way to charge at home is sufficient for like 90% of all driving.

I would be happy with a more conservative number, something like 70%. The goal (or the next step towards the goal of minimal combustion for transport energy) should be to get a lot more drivers in EVs. Once a tipping point/critical mass happens, there will be no turning back.

I have no idea what that number is, but would guess that once 30-50% of normal US drivers (not edge case off-roaders, traveling salesmen, etc.) are in EVs...the game is over, and ICE becomes the exception, not the rule. Same for buses and trucking; win on volume, not worried or stymied by long haul scenarios.

Good to see Bollinger is now delivering regional EV trucking options, along with established players like Volvo.

 

[hobowankenobi]

And requirements for providing EV charge options (for apartments) might exist (at least in CA), I do not know but I’m guessing that unless the builder of apartments/flats are forced to do so, they won’t as it costs them money.
In CA for all I know, every new single family home has to have solar and I think that is in place for several years already, there should also be a requirement to put a 240 circuit/outlet in to prep for EVs (and let’s not start another 110/240V here ), those are not common in homes yet.

Yes, this is a thing. Solar and charging circuits are required for new construction.

 

[oneMadRssn]

I would be happy with a more conservative number, something like 70%. The goal (or the next step towards the goal of minimal combustion for transport energy) should be to get a lot more drivers in EVs. Once a tipping point/critical mass happens, there will be no turning back.

I have no idea what that number is, but would guess that once 30-50% of normal US drivers (not edge case off-roaders, traveling salesmen, etc.) are in EVs...the game is over, and ICE becomes the exception, not the rule. Same for buses and trucking; win on volume, not worried or stymied by long haul scenarios.

Good to see Bollinger is now delivering regional EV trucking options, along with established players like Volvo.

Sure, I agree, but I think costs have to come down and infrastructure has to improve before EVs are 30%+ of all cars on the road. The fact that used EVs are pretty darn cheap is helpful though!

With regard to cost, I think people underappreciate just how cheap cars can be these days. A new Camry can be had for $25k with incentives. A new CRV can be had for $30k. Both are pretty darn efficient for what they are, especially relative to older equivalent cars. The nearest EVs are easily $10-15k more, which is roughly back of the napkin 100,000 miles worth of gasoline in those cars. So even if electricity were free (it's not) the break-even point is quite a ways away for new cars. Though, the fact that you can get into an off-lease Ioniq 5 these days for like $20k is very helpful to adoption.

With regard to charging infrastructure, for some irrational reason, people buy cars unlike anything they buy. Nobody buys a dishwasher large enough to handle all the dishes from a 3-course meal for 12 people that one time per year you host Thanksgiving dinner; rather you just buy a dishwasher that works for your typical life on the extreme days you figure it our (run multiple loads, hand wash, etc.). But with cars, people want their car to cover 100% of all possible situations they might encounter in the years they plan to own it - often even more so. So even though most people rarely drive 500+ miles in one sitting, they want a car that can drive coast to coast and back again without ever stopping for more than 10 minutes at a time. It's crazy, it's irrational, but it's the way it is. And frankly I don't have great arguments for it.

My best argument is the rental car argument - just rent a car when you have a niche situation like that. You down own a box truck, but you rent one when you need to move. I rent a trailer whenever I need to haul something large from home depot. Renting is awesome! Why not rent the large gas guzzler when you need a large gas guzzler, and use an EV the other 99% of the time?

 

[I7guy]

Sure, I agree, but I think costs have to come down and infrastructure has to improve before EVs are 30%+ of all cars on the road. The fact that used EVs are pretty darn cheap is helpful though!

With regard to cost, I think people underappreciate just how cheap cars can be these days. A new Camry can be had for $25k with incentives. A new CRV can be had for $30k. Both are pretty darn efficient for what they are, especially relative to older equivalent cars. The nearest EVs are easily $10-15k more,

A new Tesla model 3 can be had for about $35k (after incentives and maybe lower with incentives) and that is head and shoulders above the premium and performance aspect of a $30k crv or $25k Camry. The tm3 4.2 seconds to 60 is cheaper than a bm3. If cheap transportation is needed a 10 year old Hyundai Elantra could be purchased. But I agree more affordable evs would drive adoption.

which is roughly back of the napkin 100,000 miles worth of gasoline in those cars.

The Tesla would be cheaper over time.

So even if electricity were free (it's not) the break-even point is quite a ways away for new cars. Though, the fact that you can get into an off-lease Ioniq 5 these days for like $20k is very helpful to adoption.

Well sure used evs can level the playing field.

With regard to charging infrastructure, for some irrational reason, people buy cars unlike anything they buy. Nobody buys a dishwasher large enough to handle all the dishes from a 3-course meal for 12 people that one time per year you host Thanksgiving dinner; rather you just buy a dishwasher that works for your typical life on the extreme days you figure it our (run multiple loads, hand wash, etc.). But with cars, people want their car to cover 100% of all possible situations they might encounter in the years they plan to own it - often even more so. So even though most people rarely drive 500+ miles in one sitting, they want a car that can drive coast to coast and back again without ever stopping for more than 10 minutes at a time. It's crazy, it's irrational, but it's the way it is. And frankly I don't have great arguments for it.

Good analogy with the dishwasher, I chuckled.

My best argument is the rental car argument - just rent a car when you have a niche situation like that. You down own a box truck, but you rent one when you need to move. I rent a trailer whenever I need to haul something large from home depot. Renting is awesome! Why not rent the large gas guzzler when you need a large gas guzzler, and use an EV the other 99% of the time?

Exactly.

 

[AlaskaMoose]

Absolutely, nobody argues that it is the best for absolutely everyone.

If I couldn't charge at my home, I wouldn't get one yet. The convenience of home charging is the big game changer for me, and the cost savings (About GBP 7500 per year) in fuel alone is welcomed. And wouldn't be anything like that when public charging, although still significant.

But that is changing, I now live in a country where on road charging is pretty good. Flat owners associations have charging points in the parking always on the agenda, and for new developments it is mandatory.

Remote areas like yours are respectfully a statistical anomaly considering the big picture. And yes, you will have different needs, just like you will have different needs for heating the house, getting rid of sewage, etc. And even for your ICE cars as many will have means to plug them in (ironically) and warm the engine etc. It is not representative of the majority of people.

Agree. Home charging is a game changing perhaps is the most convenient for the great majority of EV owners. Our ICE vehicles are winterized (oil pan heater, battery charger or warmer, and most automobiles include a block heater). Diesel vehicle owners who park outdoors have to "plug" their vehicles for extended periods of time if the temperature drops somewhere around -10˚ F. My wife and I have electric timers that allow to power the car and truck heaters for a period of three hours before starting the engine. We do this whenever the temperature drops to -10˚ and colder, and start the engines to warm the cab using remote starters. The most common remote starters over here are made by Compustar, and usually are set to run for a period of 18-25 minutes.

In relation to driving long distances, it is quite common in Alaska and the Canadian Northern regions. But I have some friends who live in Wyoming and Wisconsin who have to drive to two hours of more to the nearest supermarket. This is common in a lot of the US ruler areas.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

There are 2 main things I think the motoring community need to focus on to change peoples perceptions of EV's:

1. Range - People always talk about this and give edge case examples of needing to drive 600+ miles in a day. Most drivers do not do this sort of mileage and current EV's are rolling out with 350-400+ mile ranges now, still slightly less than a diesel, but sufficient. Public charging should you need it, is sufficient now in Europe (mostly) where every town and most villages now have chargers for public use. The UK for a single example has 70k public chargers scattered across the country. People don't realise how convenient charging at home is if you can do it and just how cheap it is. It is literally a fifth of the cost of putting fuel in your car.
2. Batteries - This is a major piece of the propaganda against EV's and something that is mentioned on every single EV article on the internet. People think batteries fail on EV's all the time and go up in flames, even adapting incidents where they are not the cause, to blaming EV's (e.g. Luton Airport). People are scared they'll buy an EV and be faced with a £20k bill for a new battery and have no idea it is about as likely as your engine failing, that batteries come with warranties, and the cost is nowhere near what they think.

Until the motoring community educate motorists on these things via informative and truthful articles, the negative perception will continue.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Agree. Home charging is a game changing perhaps is the most convenient for the great majority of EV owners. Our ICE vehicles are winterized (oil pan heater, battery charger or warmer, and most automobiles include a block heater). Diesel vehicle owners who park outdoors have to "plug" their vehicles for extended periods of time if the temperature drops somewhere around -10˚ F. My wife and I have electric timers that allow to power the car and truck heaters for a period of three hours before starting the engine. We do this whenever the temperature drops to -10˚ and colder, and start the engines to warm the cab using remote starters. The most common remote starters over here are made by Compustar, and usually are set to run for a period of 18-25 minutes.

And as good as all EV's have this built in It is lovely in both winter and summer to pre-climatize your vehicle ambient environment, and get the drivetrain to operating temperature.

In relation to driving long distances, it is quite common in Alaska and the Canadian Northern regions. But I have some friends who live in Wyoming and Wisconsin who have to drive to two hours of more to the nearest supermarket. This is common in a lot of the US ruler areas.

Four hour roundtrip to go to the supermarket? Pff that is nothing, come to London. That is like a 3 mile journey 🤣

 

[JT2002TJ]

Four hour roundtrip to go to the supermarket? Pff that is nothing, come to London. That is like a 3 mile journey 🤣

I drive my TMY 3 hours a day. 1 hour to work, it sits outside with Sentry mode on all day, then 2 hours home.

I don't want to do this commute in an ICE ever again...

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I drive my TMY 3 hours a day. 1 hour to work, it sits outside with Sentry mode on all day, then 2 hours home.

I don't want to do this commute in an ICE ever again...

It is weird isn't it, but an EV almost makes sitting in traffic enjoyable. Not being afraid of the engine overheating, run climate control, watch a movie, let the car drive itself, no noise, no vibrations, no clutch pedal. All I want is a toilet and coffee machine built in

 

[GrayFlannel]

I don't want to do this commute in an ICE ever again...

It is weird isn't it, but an EV almost makes sitting in traffic enjoyable. Not being afraid of the engine overheating, run climate control, watch a movie, let the car drive itself, no noise, no vibrations, no clutch pedal.

For the short time that we lived in Manhattan we had a full time driver, so I can related to that. The EV I was in during the Sacramento stay was a little small for me but otherwise smooth riding and looked convenient to operate.

 

[oneMadRssn]

A new Tesla model 3 can be had for about $35k (after incentives and maybe lower with incentives) and that is head and shoulders above the premium and performance aspect of a $30k crv or $25k Camry. The tm3 4.2 seconds to 60 is cheaper than a bm3. If cheap transportation is needed a 10 year old Hyundai Elantra could be purchased. But I agree more affordable evs would drive adoption.

A Tesla 3 ($35k) is comparable to a Camry ($25k), but not a CRV (which is bigger, taller, and has more storage).

The Tesla would be cheaper over time.

Let's take a look at what that $10k difference means.

Average U.S. price of gas today is $3.20/gal and the lowest-cost Camry gets 32mpg, which means each mile of driving costs the Camry $0.10.

Average U.S. cost of home electricity today is $0.17/kWh and the lowest-cost Tesla 3 gets about 5 mi/kWh, which means each mile of driving costs the Tesla $0.03.

The delta cost per mile is $0.07, which divided into the $10k price difference, means you need to drive the cars for 142,857 miles before the Tesla becomes cheaper than the Camry overall. Admittedly that's not taking into account oil changes and other routine maintenance, so we can probably round that down to an even 100k-120k miles, but it takes a LONG time for the Tesla to come out cheaper.

Edit: To be clear, I am very pro EV. I own an EV and a PHEV. But I cannot deny that cost is a huge factor here. The price of new EVs is too high to us to reach that tipping point you described.

I buy EVs for the same reason someone buys a Challenger Hellcat - because they have the disposable income to make irrational buying choice and are choosing to prioritize what they want.

 

[I7guy]

A Tesla 3 ($35k) is comparable to a Camry ($25k), but not a CRV (which is bigger, taller, and has more storage).

It depends. We have a crv and tm3 and know exactly what can hauled with both. But my point was a $30k cr-v is basic as is a Camry for $25k.!while a Tesla has a decidedly premium interior. A better example would be a bmw or Infiniti for $35k.

Let's take a look at what that $10k difference means.

Average U.S. price of gas today is $3.20/gal and the lowest-cost Camry gets 32mpg, which means each mile of driving costs the Camry $0.10.

Average U.S. cost of home electricity today is $0.17/kWh and the lowest-cost Tesla 3 gets about 5 mi/kWh, which means each mile of driving costs the Tesla $0.03.

You’re comparing this to a cheaper car that has less premium and less performance. Let’s redo that calculation for a $35k bmw or Infiniti or even Acura all of which have more luxury features. This is a cherry picked example.

The delta cost per mile is $0.07, which divided into the $10k price difference, means you need to drive the cars for 142,857 miles before the Tesla becomes cheaper than the Camry overall. Admittedly that's not taking into account oil changes and other routine maintenance, so we can probably round that down to an even 100k-120k miles, but it takes a LONG time for the Tesla to come out cheaper.

As I said above compare a tm3 with an equivalent German or luxury Japanese brand it’s then a different set of numbers.

Edit: To be clear, I am very pro EV. I own an EV and a PHEV. But I cannot deny that cost is a huge factor here. The price of new EVs is too high to us to reach that tipping point you described.

I buy EVs for the same reason someone buys a Challenger Hellcat - because they have the disposable income to make irrational buying choice and are choosing to prioritize what they want.

Not saying you are not pro ev , but the comparison fails. I agree there are no really affordable evs in the market. However let’s compare like to like.

 

[GrayFlannel]

A Tesla 3 ($35k) is comparable to a Camry ($25k), but not a CRV (which is bigger, taller, and has more storage).

Let's take a look at what that $10k difference means.

Average U.S. price of gas today is $3.20/gal and the lowest-cost Camry gets 32mpg, which means each mile of driving costs the Camry $0.10.

Average U.S. cost of home electricity today is $0.17/kWh and the lowest-cost Tesla 3 gets about 5 mi/kWh, which means each mile of driving costs the Tesla $0.03.

The delta cost per mile is $0.07, which divided into the $10k price difference, means you need to drive the cars for 142,857 miles before the Tesla becomes cheaper than the Camry overall. Admittedly that's not taking into account oil changes and other routine maintenance, so we can probably round that down to an even 100k-120k miles, but it takes a LONG time for the Tesla to come out cheaper.

There are tax credits, rebates, or other incentives to encourage the purchase of electric vehicles in the United States that don’t look to be factored into the horizon either. This isn’t just a US problem either.

British car buyers have “no fiscal incentive” to buy electric cars, the UK’s auto industry has warned chancellor Rachel Reeves, as it called for tax cuts to spur the EV market and help carmakers avoid paying crippling fines. In a letter to Reeves, Mike Hawes, chief executive of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, said that the industry was likely to miss electric vehicle sales targets introduced by the government, which would result in financial penalties for some car manufacturers and higher prices of vehicles for consumers.

“Unfortunately, the private consumer has no fiscal incentive to switch and so our [zero emission vehicle] market looks set to miss its target,” he wrote. “The consequences of this will not just be environmental, but economic.”

Growth in electric vehicles sales has slowed in the UK and other parts of the world with consumers worried about the high price of battery-powered vehicles and the lack of charging infrastructure. To meet electric vehicle targets, carmakers are increasingly forced to raise the price of petrol cars and offer heavy discounts on electric vehicles, squeezing their margins. -Financial Times

Edit: To be clear, I am very pro EV. I own an EV and a PHEV. But I cannot deny that cost is a huge factor here. The price of new EVs is too high to us to reach that tipping point you described.

I buy EVs for the same reason someone buys a Challenger Hellcat - because they have the disposable income to make irrational buying choice and are choosing to prioritize what they want.

I am pro EV as well but the transition problem is complex and the solutions require a delicate well thought out balance.

 

[oneMadRssn]

There are tax credits, rebates, or other incentives to encourage the purchase of electric vehicles in the United States that don’t look to be factored into the horizon either. This isn’t just a US problem either.

The tax incentives are factored into the $35k price of a Tesla 3. It's $42.5k sticker, minus $7.5k federal incentive.

 

[oneMadRssn]

It depends. We have a crv and tm3 and know exactly what can hauled with both. But my point was a $30k cr-v is basic as is a Camry for $25k.!while a Tesla has a decidedly premium interior. A better example would be a bmw or Infiniti for $35k.

You’re comparing this to a cheaper car that has less premium and less performance. Let’s redo that calculation for a $35k bmw or Infiniti or even Acura all of which have more luxury features. This is a cherry picked example.

As I said above compare a tm3 with an equivalent German or luxury Japanese brand it’s then a different set of numbers.

Not saying you are not pro ev , but the comparison fails. I agree there are no really affordable evs in the market. However let’s compare like to like.

Tesla 3 is not premium. Indeed, Tesla interiors are inferior to a Hyundai these days; both in terms of materials and fit/finish. Comparing it to a Camry is like to like.

EDIT: To clarify - I don't mean Tesla interior are bad. But just about every other brand has really upped their interior quality over the past 10 years. I'd say a 2024 Hyundai has a better interior than a 2014 BMW.

 

[diamond.g]

Tesla 3 is not premium. Indeed, Tesla interiors are inferior to a Hyundai these days; both in terms of materials and fit/finish. Comparing it to a Camry is like to like.

EDIT: To clarify - I don't mean Tesla interior are bad. But just about every other brand has really upped their interior quality over the past 10 years. I'd say a 2024 Hyundai has a better interior than a 2014 BMW.

I know the Model 3 is barren interior wise, but what you can touch is much nicer in the 2024 models than the 2018 ones.

 

[GrayFlannel]

The tax incentives are factored into the $35k price of a Tesla 3. It's $42.5k sticker, minus $7.5k federal incentive.

Thanks!

I agree with your analysis; my only point is that when the incentive is being factored into the EV purchase price it actually makes the break even horizon artificially closer. Without the incentive (not paying people to buy the EV) then the break even horizon would be even further out.

 

[GrayFlannel]

Tesla 3 is not premium. Indeed, Tesla interiors are inferior to a Hyundai these days; both in terms of materials and fit/finish. Comparing it to a Camry is like to like.

EDIT: To clarify - I don't mean Tesla interior are bad. But just about every other brand has really upped their interior quality over the past 10 years. I'd say a 2024 Hyundai has a better interior than a 2014 BMW.

I’ve been a passenger in a Tesla 3 many times and liked it with one exception. The shoulder strap of the rear seat belt keeps locking in place making it tight and uncomfortable. Lots of cars have this issue but very annoying.

 

[I7guy]

Tesla 3 is not premium.

It is premium. Not luxury but premium.

Indeed, Tesla interiors are inferior to a Hyundai these days;

It’s better because there are premium materials with almost no clutter.

both in terms of materials and fit/finish.

Disagree.

Comparing it to a Camry is like to like.

Not it isn’t.

EDIT: To clarify - I don't mean Tesla interior are bad. But just about every other brand has really upped their interior quality over the past 10 years. I'd say a 2024 Hyundai has a better interior than a 2014 BMW.

We have a basic disagreement but that’s okay. The ev market will be what it is even with our orthogonal input.

I’m not getting into a subjective debate about interiors. If you don’t think a Tesla doesn’t have a premium interior the universe is against you. That doesn’t take away the execution of teslas vision of an interior is excellent.

 

[oneMadRssn]

It is premium. Not luxury but premium.

It’s better because there are premium materials with almost no clutter.

Disagree.

Not it isn’t.

We have a basic disagreement but that’s okay. The ev market will be what it is even with our orthogonal input.

I’m not getting into a subjective debate about interiors. If you don’t think a Tesla doesn’t have a premium interior the universe is against you. That doesn’t take away the execution of teslas vision of an interior is excellent.

I think we can agree to disagree on the issue of which market segment the Tesla 3 belongs in, but I don't think the universe is against me at all. Look at the data. All other things such as mileage and age and wear/tear being equal, the fact that a Tesla 3 and a Hyundai Ioniq 5 are selling for about the same amount on the used market shows that the market sees those two cars as in the same market segment. Compare to a Polestar 2, which is roughly the same size as both of those but priced higher on the used market all other things being equal, and is therefore more premium. Used prices are arguably the most accurate measure as it's the price the free market determines without any OEM anchoring. So regardless of what adjective we assign to the interior (premium, luxury, whatever), a regular Hyundai EV interior and a regular Tesla EV interior are in the same market segment.

 

[diamond.g]

I think we can agree to disagree on the issue of which market segment the Tesla 3 belongs in, but I don't think the universe is against me at all. Look at the data. All other things such as mileage and age and wear/tear being equal, the fact that a Tesla 3 and a Hyundai Ioniq 5 are selling for about the same amount on the used market shows that the market sees those two cars as in the same market segment. Compare to a Polestar 2, which is roughly the same size as both of those but priced higher on the used market all other things being equal, and is therefore more premium. Used prices are arguably the most accurate measure as it's the price the free market determines without any OEM anchoring. So regardless of what adjective we assign to the interior (premium, luxury, whatever), a regular Hyundai EV interior and a regular Tesla EV interior are in the same market segment.

Isn't that because there are fewer Polestars than the Ioniq or Tesla?

 

[I7guy]

I think we can agree to disagree on the issue of which market segment the Tesla 3 belongs in, but I don't think the universe is against me at all. Look at the data. All other things such as mileage and age and wear/tear being equal, the fact that a Tesla 3 and a Hyundai Ioniq 5 are selling for about the same amount on the used market shows that the market sees those two cars as in the same market segment.

Look at the data as far as the overall ev market. The model Y is nearly the best selling vehicle the world. We can twist and turn these metrics any which way. But fine you don’t think the Tesla m3 interior is premium and I do. Chalk I whip to two people disagreeing on the internet.

Compare to a Polestar 2, which is roughly the same size as both of those but priced higher on the used market all other things being equal, and is therefore more premium.

Polestar is nearly bankrupt. Bad example.

Used prices are arguably the most accurate measure as it's the price the free market determines without any OEM anchoring.

New car sales are very accurate as it gauges what the public is buying.

So regardless of what adjective we assign to the interior (premium, luxury, whatever), a regular Hyundai EV interior and a regular Tesla EV interior are in the same market segment.

I don’t care what market segment the interior is in. The tm3 is more comparable to a low end bmw in interior and an m3 in performance.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Isn't that because there are fewer Polestars than the Ioniq or Tesla?

In the USA yes. Personally I find a Polestar 2 way more premium, but only when you select the right pack. The entry level two wheel drive with standard interior is also rather basic. But through options you can change that. And to drive it is way more balanced and much better than a model 3. Although the Ionia 5n now probably has surpassed it for driving pleasure.