Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[AlaskaMoose]

Undoubtedly robust, it is a Toyota. But very much removed from the kind of F1 approach that you brought into the conversation, as clearly explained in the video. We had a Prius once, with the 1.8VVT engine, we hated the thing. I hated how you could be standing still and the engine revs likes mad charging the batteries. I also hated how in hilly area there is so little power output, made me feel a bicycle would be quicker And the interior, well I could only stand so much recycled plastic in a lifetime. But yes, robust undoubtedly.

Of course the Toyota hybrid powertrain is completely different than the one used in "$multi-million" F1 hybrid race car!

Here are the most common hybrid automobiles in the US:

20 Hybrid Vehicles with Exceptional Lifespan Records - My Car Makes Noise

When it comes to hybrid vehicles, longevity is a key factor for many drivers. Some models are not only eco-friendly but also built to last, offering

mycarmakesnoise.com

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Honda's recent hybrids have a very different transaxle now which they sometimes call an E-CVT but it is nothing like the old belt-drive CVTs. The video below does an excellent job explaining how it work and it is easy to follow. This is a very simple, elegant solution and looks like it should be very reliable. This is primarily a series-hybrid so the engine revving is done to generate power and not to directly drive the wheels except at highway speeds.

Yes, the Prius does that as well. So weird and embarrassing when the engine screams when you are stationary.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I must admit that I quite like this NIO EL8 as well. Looks great in my opinion with the right wheels and paint job. Nice spec, although shame it is still on 400V architecture, albeit a decent one with a good charging curve that max out at 250kW and sustains an average of 175kW from 10-80% which is pretty good.

In comparison, a TMY Performance would be the same max, but an average of just 99kW from 10-80% (but too be fair a bit cheaper), or a Tesla Model X Plaid with same max, and average of 129 between 10-80%, or a Polestar 3 Performance same max again, but an average of 136kW.

NIO EL8: Redefine Prime | NIO

NIO EL8, NIO, NextEV

www.nio.com

 

[diamond.g]

I must admit that I quite like this NIO EL8 as well. Looks great in my opinion with the right wheels and paint job. Nice spec, although shame it is still on 400V architecture, albeit a decent one with a good charging curve that max out at 250kW and sustains an average of 175kW from 10-80% which is pretty good.

In comparison, a TMY Performance would be the same max, but an average of just 99kW from 10-80% (but too be fair a bit cheaper), or a Tesla Model X Plaid with same max, and average of 129 between 10-80%, or a Polestar 3 Performance same max again, but an average of 136kW.

NIO EL8: Redefine Prime | NIO

NIO EL8, NIO, NextEV

www.nio.com

I could have sworn most CSS cabinets aren't able to provide 500A. Is that no longer the case?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I could have sworn most CSS cabinets aren't able to provide 500A. Is that no longer the case?

There is a fair few that can. Here in Europe most definitely. There are also smart solutions like what Porsche does where they can slit their banks in a dual 400V to still take the benefit where it isn’t supported natively.

Naturally for at home it doesn’t matter as most will only charge at home and use AC.

 

[diamond.g]

There is a fair few that can. Here in Europe most definitely. There are also smart solutions like what Porsche does where they can slit their banks in a dual 400V to still take the benefit where it isn’t supported natively.

Naturally for at home it doesn’t matter as most will only charge at home and use AC.

Are the CCS cabinets over there limited to 350kW?

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Are the CCS cabinets over there limited to 350kW?

There are 400kW chargers or hyperchargers as well 👍

 

[diamond.g]

There are 400kW chargers or hyperchargers as well 👍

As far as I am aware we don't have any thing as fast over on this side of the pond.

 

[JT2002TJ]

While faster charging would be nice (L4), and it would be nice to have both in the US. It is more important now to increase the number of chargers vs focusing in on faster chargers. Our US L3 chargers are fast enough, we just need more.

400v vs 800v is a cool thing to say you have. But in reality, I do not think most people have issues with L3 charging speed. I would assume a larger subset of EV owners/buyers have issues with access to L2+ charges (either via waiting for a free charger or having to travel out of their way to charge).

Public L2 chargers are really where the main focus should be in the US, while also increasing L3+. But don't deploy less L3 charges because of the cost associated with the infrastructure needed for L4.

This is my opinion of US, not Europe's infrastructure. The biggest fear I hear from potential EV adopters is access to charging, not speed. The people who don't want to transition to EVs are going to cite wanting to charge in 5 minutes, but they really aren't the people we need to please. It's those of us with EVs, or those that have legitimate issues with access to charging. Public L2 would address majority of their issues, and increased number of L3's would solve majority road tripping.

Going from L3 25-30 min down to L4 <15 mins of charging is great, but if there aren't enough open stations it still doesn't solve the problem. Yes, there would be a faster turnaround, but if you can have 3-4x the stations in L3 vs L4 I would prefer more L3.

*I'm sure many will say I'm wrong. This is my opinion...

 

[cyb3rdud3]

As far as I am aware we don't have any thing as fast over on this side of the pond.

It will come, undoubtedly. 👍 I mean to be fair and as you aforementioned. Our Polestar is Max 155 kW on DC. And we’ve travelled across 9 countries and never felt like we had to wait on it. Typically by the time everyone on a roadtrip has been to the WC, bought a coffee or water, the car is back up to 80% anyway.

But when buying a new one, which will happen soon for us, I would like at least current technology and architecture. So 22 kW at home and make use of the hyper chargers when out and about.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

While faster charging would be nice (L4), and it would be nice to have both in the US. It is more important now to increase the number of chargers vs focusing in on faster chargers. Our US L3 chargers are fast enough, we just need more.

400v vs 800v is a cool thing to say you have. But in reality, I do not think most people have issues with L3 charging speed. I would assume a larger subset of EV owners/buyers have issues with access to L2+ charges (either via waiting for a free charger or having to travel out of their way to charge).

Public L2 chargers are really where the main focus should be in the US, while also increasing L3+. But don't deploy less L3 charges because of the cost associated with the infrastructure needed for L4.

This is my opinion of US, not Europe's infrastructure. The biggest fear I hear from potential EV adopters is access to charging, not speed. The people who don't want to transition to EVs are going to cite wanting to charge in 5 minutes, but they really aren't the people we need to please. It's those of us with EVs, or those that have legitimate issues with access to charging. Public L2 would address majority of their issues, and increased number of L3's would solve majority road tripping.

Going from L3 25-30 min down to L4 <15 mins of charging is great, but if there aren't enough open stations it still doesn't solve the problem. Yes, there would be a faster turnaround, but if you can have 3-4x the stations in L3 vs L4 I would prefer more L3.

*I'm sure many will say I'm wrong. This is my opinion...

I agree in principle, and it wouldn’t even bring an arguement for the diesel drivers who do 1,200 miles every single day whilst towing 5,000lbs and not stopping once 😎😆 But in reality we’ve never had to wait on our car ever.

We are lucky that we have the critical mass and have long established charger standards. So expansions are becoming more and more generational upgrades.

Personally I’ve always been a fan of when you do something do it right. So when the technology is there, use that and don’t put the old stuff in. Typically the hypercharger we see here can also be two ultra fast 400v architecture chargers 👍

But definitely building out critical mass infrastructure and also include town planning for destination chargers, at new developments and commercial properties.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

This is my opinion of US, not Europe's infrastructure. The biggest fear I hear from potential EV adopters is access to charging, not speed. The people who don't want to transition to EVs are going to cite wanting to charge in 5 minutes, but they really aren't the people we need to please. It's those of us with EVs, or those that have legitimate issues with access to charging. Public L2 would address majority of their issues, and increased number of L3's would solve majority road tripping.

Going from L3 25-30 min down to L4 <15 mins of charging is great, but if there aren't enough open stations it still doesn't solve the problem. Yes, there would be a faster turnaround, but if you can have 3-4x the stations in L3 vs L4 I would prefer more L3.

*I'm sure many will say I'm wrong. This is my opinion...

There is definitely a lot of resistance to EV's where people expect instant charging to match the convenience of ICE, but without considering the convenience of being able to charge at home and the distance most journeys are. That then leads to a real issue though which we've discussed here before and that is the limitations of home charging for people who don't have the option in flats and terraces which are very common in the UK and similar in Europe. In London certain boroughs have embraced kerb-side charging points, however this isn't hugely available outside the capital. I know my council will not let you charge if a cable has to go across a pavement and do not offer installation. It is something which is more of a UK local authority issue but its not helping public perception and encouraging adoption. Also as its not a complusory requirement for private landlords to install EV chargers yet and in the town I live in there are just 13 public EV chargers. I can see why people are concerned in this regard as if you can't charge at home, I really wouldn't recommend an EV yet.

Contrast that to the Netherlands where I have just got back from and even in some of the rural areas there appears to be better options. I know its a much smaller country but it has dense areas and it feels like they've focused better on the infrastructure before they've penalised manufacturers and pushed adoption.

 

[timber]

I would be happy with just a lot more 50 kW chargers.

A problem we are having here (and it's a very localized situation in a small European country but which I think could happen everywhere) is that Uber type cars are becoming mostly electric.

And those things take chargers everywhere particularly at all those convenient places (supermarkets and so on).

 

[JT2002TJ]

I would be happy with just a lot more 50 kW chargers.

A problem we are having here (and it's a very localized situation in a small European country but which I think could happen everywhere) is that Uber type cars are becoming mostly electric.

And those things take chargers everywhere particularly at all those convenient places (supermarkets and so on).

There is a free L2 charger at my local grocery store (I believe it shuts off after 2 hours), when it is used, it's almost a guarantee that it is a rideshare vehicle.

We have 4 street chargers on my block at work. It is almost always filled with rideshare vehicles.

There are plenty of L3 chargers around, there usually isn't an issue getting to those.

 

[jz0309]

While faster charging would be nice (L4), and it would be nice to have both in the US. It is more important now to increase the number of chargers vs focusing in on faster chargers. Our US L3 chargers are fast enough, we just need more.

400v vs 800v is a cool thing to say you have. But in reality, I do not think most people have issues with L3 charging speed. I would assume a larger subset of EV owners/buyers have issues with access to L2+ charges (either via waiting for a free charger or having to travel out of their way to charge).

Public L2 chargers are really where the main focus should be in the US, while also increasing L3+. But don't deploy less L3 charges because of the cost associated with the infrastructure needed for L4.

This is my opinion of US, not Europe's infrastructure. The biggest fear I hear from potential EV adopters is access to charging, not speed. The people who don't want to transition to EVs are going to cite wanting to charge in 5 minutes, but they really aren't the people we need to please. It's those of us with EVs, or those that have legitimate issues with access to charging. Public L2 would address majority of their issues, and increased number of L3's would solve majority road tripping.

Going from L3 25-30 min down to L4 <15 mins of charging is great, but if there aren't enough open stations it still doesn't solve the problem. Yes, there would be a faster turnaround, but if you can have 3-4x the stations in L3 vs L4 I would prefer more L3.

*I'm sure many will say I'm wrong. This is my opinion...

I have a different viewpoint living in SoCal, there is quite a lack of L3 aka DCFC still besides Tesla. Electrify America is testing a 85% charge limit at multiple stations to ease congestion. These L3 stations are typically in shopping center/strip mall areas and are (ab)used by folks who get free DCFS charging with their new EV.
As for L2, yes, more needs to be done to attract those who do not have single family homes, but tbh, what does a L2 at a grocery store really do for me? 10 miles of range while I do my shopping? Meh.
What in my opinion we need are more 50kW or so chargers in those mall locations, eg, I want to go for dinner which takes 1-2hrs or so, on a 350kW charger I have to interrupt my dinner to not hog it, on L2 I might get 20 miles, but, on a 50kW charger - different story.
The fast DCFC chargers should be primarily for travelers, and faster is better, I am quite happy with the 240kW that my IONIQ is capable of, basically never have to wait (if the station is available.

Tesla opening up she supercharger network is helping, much more work is needed

 

[diamond.g]

I have a different viewpoint living in SoCal, there is quite a lack of L3 aka DCFC still besides Tesla. Electrify America is testing a 85% charge limit at multiple stations to ease congestion. These L3 stations are typically in shopping center/strip mall areas and are (ab)used by folks who get free DCFS charging with their new EV.
As for L2, yes, more needs to be done to attract those who do not have single family homes, but tbh, what does a L2 at a grocery store really do for me? 10 miles of range while I do my shopping? Meh.
What in my opinion we need are more 50kW or so chargers in those mall locations, eg, I want to go for dinner which takes 1-2hrs or so, on a 350kW charger I have to interrupt my dinner to not hog it, on L2 I might get 20 miles, but, on a 50kW charger - different story.
The fast DCFC chargers should be primarily for travelers, and faster is better, I am quite happy with the 240kW that my IONIQ is capable of, basically never have to wait (if the station is available.

Tesla opening up she supercharger network is helping, much more work is needed

Tesla tried to do the urban SC (72kW) system, but it didn't really pan out either

 

[JT2002TJ]

I have a different viewpoint living in SoCal, there is quite a lack of L3 aka DCFC still besides Tesla. Electrify America is testing a 85% charge limit at multiple stations to ease congestion. These L3 stations are typically in shopping center/strip mall areas and are (ab)used by folks who get free DCFS charging with their new EV.
As for L2, yes, more needs to be done to attract those who do not have single family homes, but tbh, what does a L2 at a grocery store really do for me? 10 miles of range while I do my shopping? Meh.
What in my opinion we need are more 50kW or so chargers in those mall locations, eg, I want to go for dinner which takes 1-2hrs or so, on a 350kW charger I have to interrupt my dinner to not hog it, on L2 I might get 20 miles, but, on a 50kW charger - different story.
The fast DCFC chargers should be primarily for travelers, and faster is better, I am quite happy with the 240kW that my IONIQ is capable of, basically never have to wait (if the station is available.

Tesla opening up she supercharger network is helping, much more work is needed

I was saying more L2 & L3. I think what people like to talk about is L4. I think L4 is great, but L2 & L3 are more important... L2 for around town (malls, stores, restaurants) and L3 on trips.

I think L4 where people are expecting 350kW+ charging is less important than volumes of L3 for road trips. L3 is good enough.

I think we are saying the same thing, but you may not realize I'm saying the same thing.

 

[jz0309]

Tesla tried to do the urban SC (72kW) system, but it didn't really pan out either

When was that? Maybe “we” weren’t ready for that at the time? Idk.
I’m looking at this with my own glasses on

 

[jz0309]

I was saying more L2 & L3. I think what people like to talk about is L4. I think L4 is great, but L2 & L3 are more important... L2 for around town (malls, stores, restaurants) and L3 on trips.

I think L4 where people are expecting 350kW+ charging is less important than volumes of L3 for road trips. L3 is good enough.

I think we are saying the same thing, but you may not realize I'm saying the same thing.

Gotcha. In a sense I compare the EV charging infrastructure with cellular/wireless infrastructure, it takes years to build it out and it’s expected to serve for at least 10 years.
And I agree, for now, 350kW is sufficient for the average driver, those who commute in a daily basis and occasionally long(er) trips.
But for a “professional”, the one that drives beyond 250 miles or so daily, faster charging should be available, and those Uber/Lyft drivers could not hog on “consumer” charging stations.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Gotcha. In a sense I compare the EV charging infrastructure with cellular/wireless infrastructure, it takes years to build it out and it’s expected to serve for at least 10 years.
And I agree, for now, 350kW is sufficient for the average driver, those who commute in a daily basis and occasionally long(er) trips.
But for a “professional”, the one that drives beyond 250 miles or so daily, faster charging should be available, and those Uber/Lyft drivers could not hog on “consumer” charging stations.

Yeah. They should make a few L4 stations in a field of L3 and charge significantly more, not enough that it wouldn't make it cost effective for the "pros" but not cheap enough that the person who doesn't NEED it uses it instead of the field of L3 at the same lot.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

I would be happy with just a lot more 50 kW chargers.

A problem we are having here (and it's a very localized situation in a small European country but which I think could happen everywhere) is that Uber type cars are becoming mostly electric.

And those things take chargers everywhere particularly at all those convenient places (supermarkets and so on).

Yes London is like that. Too many private hire or taxi cabs (they get so upset if you combine them together 😅) hogging the chargers. Too often they aren’t really driver owners and haven’t got a clue about the vehicle they drive. Let alone speak the language but that is a whole different story.

 

[exoceano]

Didn't the US just spend like $660 M for about 10 new chargers - everyone should be happy - !! - I recently got a Tuscon Hybrid - really like it. no plug required.

 

[diamond.g]

When was that? Maybe “we” weren’t ready for that at the time? Idk.
I’m looking at this with my own glasses on

Around the time the Model 3 was announced. Before V3 stalls were unveiled if I remember correctly.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Didn't the US just spend like $660 M for about 10 new chargers - everyone should be happy - !! - I recently got a Tuscon Hybrid - really like it. no plug required.

That would be an extraordinary amount of money. Besides our EV I had a Porsche Hybrid, charging using petrol is so much more expensive than plugging it in. But if you are in an area where petrol is cheap that makes total sense. I tend to go across the border and save up to 80 cents per litre of high-octane fuel. It is only 15 minutes away from my home in the Netherlands, so easily done.

 

[hobowankenobi]

Didn't the US just spend like $660 M for about 10 new chargers...

Last I heard all those reports were clickbait or fake news. Get yer fake news right...it was billions, not millions.

Money was allocated for state projects...not the same as being spent. Have to wait until all the projects are complete. Some states are in progress now, other states have not even started.

"Update: As of Dec. 9, federal funds have been used to complete 226 charging ports at 37 stations across 13 states, with more than 24,000 ports in progress, according to an FHWA spokesperson. "