Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[cyb3rdud3]

Nice refresh for the best-selling car globally in 2023. It was long overdue, IMHO. A bit too soon to tell where the changes are more than skin deep and like the TM3 Highland offer a much improved car all-round. Although the Chinese to English translation suggests updated suspension, hubs and tires for a smoother and quieter ride. I hope that translates into a more refined and luxurious ride. Looks like its first out in China (hence the link…), with Europe expected to follow in the following months, and then the USA.

Like with the TM3 Highland I think they've done visually a great job. Didn't like either first generation at all, but this is getting rather nice.

New Model Y | Tesla China

焕新 Model Y 重新设计了外观，是一款拥有超大储物空间的的纯电动中型 SUV，驾乘体验更安静，同时搭载先进的安全功能。

www.tesla.cn

 

[JT2002TJ]

Nice refresh for the best-selling car globally in 2023. It was long overdue imho. A bit too soon to tell where the changes are more than skin deep and like the TM3 Highland offer a much improved car all-round. Looks like its first out in China (hence the link...), with Europe expected to follow in the next few months, and then the USA.

Like with the TM3 Highland I think they've done visually a great job. Didn't like either first generation at all, but this is getting rather nice.

New Model Y | Tesla China

焕新 Model Y 重新设计了外观，是一款拥有超大储物空间的的纯电动中型 SUV，驾乘体验更安静，同时搭载先进的安全功能。

www.tesla.cn

Just an FYI, the original TMY is only 5 years old (2020 - 2024) and #1 selling vehicle worldwide for the past 2 years... I'm not sure of any time in the past a company was held to a standard that a 5-year-old vehicle's redesign was considered "long overdue."

This is not a Tesla support thing; it is an honest vehicle thing. I've never heard of people expecting a complete redesign in <5 years. Companies have to actually make money for tooling, and also have to develop an inventory of replacement parts for each design. If this is the new expectation, this is going to be a problem as you will never get parts once your vehicle becomes the last generation...

Edit: Not 100% TMY was #1 selling in 2024, but it was up there in the top...

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Just an FYI, the original TMY is only 5 years old (2020 - 2024) and #1 selling vehicle worldwide for the past 2 years... I'm not sure of any time in the past a company was held to a standard that a 5-year-old vehicle's redesign was considered "long overdue."

This is not a Tesla support thing; it is an honest vehicle thing. I've never heard of people expecting a complete redesign in <5 years. Companies have to actually make money for tooling, and also have to develop an inventory of replacement parts for each design. If this is the new expectation, this is going to be a problem as you will never get parts once your vehicle becomes the last generation...

Typically, a facelift is within 3 years Full model changes about 6-8 years. This is a facelift with some improvements, not a full model replacement.

Facelift (automotive) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[JT2002TJ]

Typically, a facelift is within 3 years Full model changes about 6-8 years. This is a facelift with some improvements, not a full model replacement.

Facelift (automotive) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

TMY has had several "Facelifts" already, several times. From the interior 1.0 to 2.0, HW3 to HW4, 2x suspension changes, introduction of 7-seater, Hepa Filter (Biodefence Mode), Matrix headlights, and many more.

From your source:

An automotive facelift, also known as mid-generational refresh, minor model change, minor model update, or life cycle impulse, comprises changes to a vehicle's styling during its production run including, to highly variable degree, new sheetmetal, interior design elements or mechanical changes,[1] allowing a carmaker to freshen a model without a complete redesign.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Just an FYI, the original TMY is only 5 years old (2020 - 2024) and #1 selling vehicle worldwide for the past 2 years... I'm not sure of any time in the past a company was held to a standard that a 5-year-old vehicle's redesign was considered "long overdue."

This is not a Tesla support thing; it is an honest vehicle thing. I've never heard of people expecting a complete redesign in <5 years. Companies have to actually make money for tooling, and also have to develop an inventory of replacement parts for each design. If this is the new expectation, this is going to be a problem as you will never get parts once your vehicle becomes the last generation...

Edit: Not 100% TMY was #1 selling in 2024, but it was up there in the top...

Number 5 in the UK from the chart I posted a few days back.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Number 5 in the UK from the chart I posted a few days back.

Yeah, but worldwide I think it was still #1 or in the top 5.

 

[quagmire]

TMY has had several "Facelifts" already, several times. From the interior 1.0 to 2.0, HW3 to HW4, 2x suspension changes, introduction of 7-seater, Hepa Filter (Biodefence Mode), Matrix headlights, and many more.

From your source:

Those are not facelifts. Just added features or small updates which all manufacturers do( or deletions).

Only difference is Tesla does them on the fly vs waiting for the next model year.

This is a facelift:

Chevy Camaro 5th gen





vs



This is a redesign:



I would consider both new Model 3 and Model Y as heavy facelifts. More done than a simple design update like the 5th gen Camaro facelift posted above. But ultimately it is still on the same architecture as the last versions.

 

[AustinIllini]

Nice refresh for the best-selling car globally in 2023. It was long overdue, IMHO. A bit too soon to tell where the changes are more than skin deep and like the TM3 Highland offer a much improved car all-round. Although the Chinese to English translation suggests updated suspension, hubs and tires for a smoother and quieter ride. I hope that translates into a more refined and luxurious ride. Looks like its first out in China (hence the link…), with Europe expected to follow in the following months, and then the USA.

Like with the TM3 Highland I think they've done visually a great job. Didn't like either first generation at all, but this is getting rather nice.

New Model Y | Tesla China

焕新 Model Y 重新设计了外观，是一款拥有超大储物空间的的纯电动中型 SUV，驾乘体验更安静，同时搭载先进的安全功能。

www.tesla.cn

Y looks pretty terrible compared to the Highland, especially when you consider all the opportunities for Tesla to mess up the panel gaps like on the Cybertruck.

 

[AustinIllini]

Those are not facelifts. Just added features or small updates which all manufacturers do( or deletions).

Only difference is Tesla does them on the fly vs waiting for the next model year.

This is a facelift:

Chevy Camaro 5th gen

View attachment 2471087



vs

View attachment 2471088

This is a redesign:

View attachment 2471089

I would consider both new Model 3 and Model Y as heavy facelifts. More done than a simple design update like the 5th gen Camaro facelift posted above. But ultimately it is still on the same architecture as the last versions.

You nailed it, they're almost like the mid model refreshes brands do. Ultimately, the delta upgrades in Teslas still make these essentially the same car.

Facelift, not redesign.

Should be interesting to see how Tesla does with delta upgrades. Other brands do more drastic upgrades to drive sales but have more stagnant years in the interim.

 

[quagmire]

You nailed it, they're almost like the mid model refreshes brands do. Ultimately, the delta upgrades in Teslas still make these essentially the same car.

Facelift, not redesign.

Should be interesting to see how Tesla does with delta upgrades. Other brands do more drastic upgrades to drive sales but have more stagnant years in the interim.

Frankly Tesla hasn't truly done a full on redesign yet for their existing products. Just constant heavy facelifts.

The S and X are still riding on the same platform as they were when they first debuted. They have seen updates and new variants added, etc. but ultimately the S is the same as it was back in 2013 and X as it was in 2015.

 

[I7guy]

You nailed it, they're almost like the mid model refreshes brands do. Ultimately, the delta upgrades in Teslas still make these essentially the same car.

What does essentially the same car really mean? The 2018-2023 look the same, but have many improvements under the skin. Are you saying the highland is essentially the same car as the previous model?

Facelift, not redesign.

Should be interesting to see how Tesla does with delta upgrades. Other brands do more drastic upgrades to drive sales but have more stagnant years in the interim.

The software upgrades make owning a Teslas a unique experience. A fresh coat of paint a few times a year. I don’t see other ICE manufacturers making wholesale changes either. Mostly incremental.

 

[quagmire]

What does essentially the same car really mean? The 2018-2023 look the same, but have many improvements under the skin. Are you saying the highland is essentially the same car as the previous model?

The software upgrades make owning a Teslas a unique experience. A fresh coat of paint a few times a year. I don’t see other ICE manufacturers making wholesale changes either. Mostly incremental.

Yes Highland is basically the same as the previous model.

Tesla has done the cheap stuff to update the car( sheetmetal, suspension upgrades, interior, etc). But ultimately tear a 2018 Model 3 and a 2024 Model 3 down, it's basically the same architecture/platform.

They haven't done the expensive part of car development: a whole new architecture/platform. Aka C7->C8 Corvette or 5th gen Camaro( Zeta platform) to 6th gen Camaro ( Alpha platform).

It's why I classify them as heavy facelifts. More was done to the car than a simple design tweak like the 5th gen Camaro facelift I posted above. But it isn't a ground up new vehicle.

 

[I7guy]

Yes Highland is basically the same as the previous model.

Tesla has done the cheap stuff to update the car( sheetmetal, suspension upgrades, interior, etc). But ultimately tear a 2018 Model 3 and a 2024 Model 3 down, it's basically the same architecture/platform.

They haven't done the expensive part of car development: a whole new architecture/platform. Aka C7->C8 Corvette or 5th gen Camaro( Zeta platform) to 6th gen Camaro ( Alpha platform).

It's why I classify them as heavy facelifts. More was done to the car than a simple design tweak like the 5th gen Camaro facelift I posted above. But it isn't a ground up new vehicle.

I had to look up the difference between the c7 and c8 and to me it's basically the same car with some tweaks. I think that it is easy to downplay the updates in the 2024 TM3 vs the previous model an casually write them off as minor upgrades. And I'm not attempting to get into a definitional war of words here.

But moving the engine forward in an ice car is no less of a task than redesigning the motors, interior, battery, suspension, software, sheet metal etc in an EV.

 

[SalisburySam]

Tesla has done the cheap stuff to update the car( sheetmetal, suspension upgrades, interior, etc). But ultimately tear a 2018 Model 3 and a 2024 Model 3 down, it's basically the same architecture/platform.

Not all changes/updates/facelifts add things. Using my 2018 Model 3 as a baseline, newer Model 3’s do NOT have:

• passenger lumbar support
• front radar unit
• HomeLink garage door controller (extra cost add on today)
• Home charging adapter (extra cost add on today)
• Roof that turns orange when wet (actually more amazing that it sounds)
• Ultrasonic sensor suite
• Center dashboard speaker
• Front console USB ports that are power and data, even if only USB-A
• Turn signal/wiper and gear shift stalks

To be fair, my car was not able to include a heated steering wheel (dumb design move, IMO) either standard or optional.

 

[diamond.g]

Not all changes/updates/facelifts add things. Using my 2018 Model 3 as a baseline, newer Model 3’s do NOT have:

• passenger lumbar support
• front radar unit
• HomeLink garage door controller (extra cost add on today)
• Home charging adapter (extra cost add on today)
• Roof that turns orange when wet (actually more amazing that it sounds)
• Ultrasonic sensor suite
• Center dashboard speaker
• Front console USB ports that are power and data, even if only USB-A
• Turn signal/wiper and gear shift stalks

To be fair, my car was not able to include a heated steering wheel (dumb design move, IMO) either standard or optional.

You must have a really early 2018 model, cause by the time the AWD versions came out none of them had the roof that turned orange when wet. I say this as I had a 50k VIN AWD that was missing that feature, along with the cloth headliner instead of alcantara the 2017's got.

 

[SalisburySam]

You must have a really early 2018 model, cause by the time the AWD versions came out none of them had the roof that turned orange when wet. I say this as I had a 50k VIN AWD that was missing that feature, along with the cloth headliner instead of alcantara the 2017's got.

Build date: 06/2018 with a 33nnn VIN. Ordered in time to get lifetime premium connectivity. It’s a nice feature, probably would not pay for it separately if I didn’t have it. Also got (chuckle) FSD…wish I had invested that money elsewhere.

 

[quagmire]

I had to look up the difference between the c7 and c8 and to me it's basically the same car with some tweaks. I think that it is easy to downplay the updates in the 2024 TM3 vs the previous model an casually write them off as minor upgrades. And I'm not attempting to get into a definitional war of words here.

But moving the engine forward in an ice car is no less of a task than redesigning the motors, interior, battery, suspension, software, sheet metal etc in an EV.

Because all you're judging the C7 to C8 from its looks of the sheetmetal.

I am not writing off the updates as minor. But in the car world, terms do matter. The cost of designing a whole new platform is defined in the billions of dollars. A simple facelift is considerably less. It's why I am classifying the highland and Juniper as heavy facelifts. A lot more was done than simple sheetmetal changes, but I am not classifying them as a full redesign.

BTW..... engine went backward not forward in the change from C7 to C8.

But if you think going from front-mid engine to mid-engine platforms is no less of a task than changing the interior and sheetmetal, I am now out of this discussion. Because if it was that easy to do, Corvette would have been mid-engine long time ago. What prevented them from doing it was the cost of the change. Either management didn't think it was justifiable or they didn't have the money. aka C7 Corvette was supposed to be the mid-engine transition, but GM was cash strapped so they went with an updated platform based off the C6.

 

[quagmire]

Not all changes/updates/facelifts add things. Using my 2018 Model 3 as a baseline, newer Model 3’s do NOT have:

• passenger lumbar support
• front radar unit
• HomeLink garage door controller (extra cost add on today)
• Home charging adapter (extra cost add on today)
• Roof that turns orange when wet (actually more amazing that it sounds)
• Ultrasonic sensor suite
• Center dashboard speaker
• Front console USB ports that are power and data, even if only USB-A
• Turn signal/wiper and gear shift stalks

To be fair, my car was not able to include a heated steering wheel (dumb design move, IMO) either standard or optional.

Hence in my original post on the subject, I did put deletions in parentheses.

 

[russell_314]

I suspect the new Model Y will be received well by consumers. It looks amazing and replaces an already popular vehicle. I would buy one but I’ve always favored a sedan over an SUV. Perhaps when I get older I’ll be interested in the Y because it’s easier to get in and out.

 

[I7guy]

Because all you're judging the C7 to C8 from its looks of the sheetmetal.

I am not writing off the updates as minor. But in the car world, terms do matter. The cost of designing a whole new platform is defined in the billions of dollars. A simple facelift is considerably less. It's why I am classifying the highland and Juniper as heavy facelifts. A lot more was done than simple sheetmetal changes, but I am not classifying them as a full redesign.

Do you know the costs associated with the Highland redesign? The costs associate with the vette redesign?

BTW..... engine went backward not forward in the change from C7 to C8.

But if you think going from front-mid engine to mid-engine platforms is no less of a task than changing the interior and sheetmetal, I am now out of this discussion.

It could be the challenges to tweak an ice vehicle is substantially harder than a EV. However, we both do not understand the amount of engineering and rework in the factories to be able to have an apples to apples comparison.

Because if it was that easy to do, Corvette would have been mid-engine long time ago.

I don't buy that as an excuse for GM.

What prevented them from doing it was the cost of the change. Either management didn't think it was justifiable or they didn't have the money. aka C7 Corvette was supposed to be the mid-engine transition, but GM was cash strapped so they went with an updated platform based off the C6.

Telsa I guess had the money to go through with the update of the TM3, while gm didn't?