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Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk
- Thread starter PracticalMac
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Well it’s a different shape. I think they did an amazing job with the facelift for the TM3. With the TMY it’s better than the original Y imho but not as amazingly done on what is virtually the same car. But then again it is a facelift. Not an entirely new car.
I think more is made of it operating differently than it actually is. Every car does model year changes. Hence when buying selling discussing the model year is important. Where in my opinion the difference is that Tesla doesn’t necessarily do it like that which a specific cut off point and don’t tend to announce it but just do it. As a new buyer you need to be aware, and as a secondhand buyer you need to be really prepared.
It's amazing how simply stating what these are( heavy facelifts/refreshes) is being seen as an attack against Tesla or the cars themselves.
I am not discussing it in terms of being derogatory towards the highland or Juniper.
I am just amazed that the cost of developing a whole new platform to change the Corvette from front engine to mid-engine is being taken as the same cost to develop the Highland and Juniper. Or somehow the C8 wasn't a redesign of the car from the C7 because of how the sheetmetal looks.
It's well understood in car development that the cost of designing a whole new platform is a lot more expensive than changing sheetmetal, interior, and suspension. Even if I did have the exact figures of Model 3 vs Corvette development costs, the next argument would be, " Well of course Corvette is more expensive to develop, it is a sports car vs an affordable mainstream car". Or somehow moving the engine to mid-engine isn't any harder than changing sheetmetal.
I am just bewildered that going from the C7 to C8 Corvette is being seen in anyway the equivalent of Highland and Juniper.
In the past they have changed things that are usually left for full platforms changes which is something they have never done in the normal sense. Sometimes they change a lot of real metal while the car looking exactly the same.
And that is not even getting into their software upgrade policy.
And I don't mean Tesla approach is necessarily always good because it isn't all that predictable and you really need to be properly informed both for new and user car purchases.
Even convencional brands aren't that predictable as they used to be in what they change. For exemple VW has been running MQB for more than one generation in some models (they do claim to do Evo and whatever, Tesla doesn't claim anything).
Will this approach work better going forward? I'm not really certain.
And that is not even getting into their software upgrade policy.
And I don't mean Tesla approach is necessarily always good because it isn't all that predictable and you really need to be properly informed both for new and user car purchases.
Even convencional brands aren't that predictable as they used to be in what they change. For exemple VW has been running MQB for more than one generation in some models (they do claim to do Evo and whatever, Tesla doesn't claim anything).
Will this approach work better going forward? I'm not really certain.
The closest thing I could classify Tesla doing in terms of platform redesign that is different from the legacy OEM's would be the changes Tesla did do to the Model Y with the single casting of the front and rear being in the same generation of the car.
Those type of chassis/platform changes would be reserved for the next platform designed for the next generation vehicle like the C6 Corvette to C7 Corvette was.
Those type of chassis/platform changes would be reserved for the next platform designed for the next generation vehicle like the C6 Corvette to C7 Corvette was.
Totally agree. That is a completely different platform. Here with the TMY we have some different body panels at the front, fresh LED strips, and different suspension setup, and some interior components that are different. Even the efficiency gains are simply aerodynamic and not because of a redesign.
just normal, all car manufacturers have been doing that forever.
That isn't a platform change or modification. Heat pump is just a new feature/HVAC system.
Should be seen as how my 2024 MY Corvette Z06 has Google Automotive as its entertainment system while the 2023 MY Z06 has GM's entertainment system.
Just a model year change. 🤷♂️ Polestar pre-MY22 didn’t have a heat pump. MY22 does when you have the plus pack. MY23 got a facelift. MY24 went from FWD to RWD for entry level cars and different engine types for both RWD and AWD. All is still seen as the original Polestar 2. Lots of car companies do this all the time.
The heat pump introduction is more than just HVAC, it is the thermal maintenance device for the HV Battery... It is a major significant change.
Tesla doesn’t operate like a traditional car company as stated above. And I for one don’t think anything said was an attack on Tesla.
I just think there is not an apples to apples comparison in how legacy automakers operate vs how Tesla operates. To me the TM3 2024 was a complete refresh even if some parts are the same from 2023.
Not to mention the whole gigacasting improvements.
I just think there is not an apples to apples comparison in how legacy automakers operate vs how Tesla operates. To me the TM3 2024 was a complete refresh even if some parts are the same from 2023.
Not to mention the whole gigacasting improvements.
I would mark Polestars addition of a heat pump as the equivalent of a traditional manufacture's facelift or model change.
You keep thinking I am defending Tesla, it is only because I know Tesla better. This is an EV thread. The traditional way of doing things is now different. I will defend any manufacture for the same. Rivian has had significant changes with the R1T and R1S platforms. They look the same on the outside, but there is no reason NOT to call them facelifts or model changes.
Model change as C7 to C8 Corvette or model year changes?
The use of the term facelift is wrong in terms of addition of the heat pump.
But if you are referencing to model year changes, then I would be in agreement with you. As I have said both Tesla and legacy OEM's make changes to the current generation of the vehicle. Tesla does it on the fly vs model year changes, but heat pump addition isn't a facelift when it comes to automotive talk.
C6 Corvette gained Magnetic Ride Control during its generation. I wouldn't classify that as a facelift or refresh. Just an update to the cars suspension( as an option). The C7 Z06 gained several updates to improve upon its performance and cooling, but nothing I would classify as a refresh or facelift.
No one is arguing the heat pump wan't a huge addition and huge benefit, but speaking in terms of platforms, refresh vs redesign of the vehicle, etc the heat pump is an upgrade to the current vehicle, but it isn't a facelift or a change to the platform it rides on.
I stole this list from TMC forum. This is a list of changes to the TM3 over the years. The amount of highland changes 100% make it a new model. The many numbers of changes prior to the highland 100% make them facelifts (by the definition provided to me).
I think people are stuck on this concept that legacy automakers have in place. Most manufactures do not have this many changes in a 7 year period (2018 - 2024 for TM3). Because the outside only has subtle changes, does not mean there aren't major changes...
And again, I can only talk about what I know. I know Tesla, sorry... If I knew the details of other manufactures I would be just as passionate..
2018:
- Removed alcantara headliners (Jan 2018)
- Updated control arm design
2019:
- HW3, 20x faster NPU (after April 2019)
- 5% power increase (software update, older cars got it too)
- Added pedestrian speaker (happened some time between Apr - Sep 2019)
- Homelink removed (June 2019)
- Removed auto dimming mirrors
- Basic Autopilot became a standard feature rather than $3000
- Updated frunk design without hooks
- ~9% larger battery (75kWh to 82kWh)
- heat pump for ~20% more winter range
- powered trunk
- front double pane windows
- Exterior changes: chrome delete, minor wheel design change
- Small interior changes (metal scroll wheel, new center console, smaller frunk, graphic on door release button)
- USB C ports
- Wireless charging
- Auto dimming mirrors are back
- Heated radar
- HW3.2 that upgraded from 100M to Gigabit ethernet between MCU and HW3 (some time in H2 2020)
2021:
- Updated headlights design (EU only)
- Updated tail light design
- heated steering wheel
- Removed radar (~May 2021)
- Removed passenger lumbar (~June 2021)
- Noticeably quieter interior
- Updated side camera housing to fix purple flicker
- SR+ switched to LFP battery, 0-60 slowed from 5.3 to 5.8 second from extra weight, but much longer lifespan)
- LR switched to a smaller 79kWh battery instead of 82kWh
2022:
Changes in the beginning of 2022
- Ryzen processor (5x faster CPU, 10x faster iGPU, 16GB RAM (4x), 256GB SSD (4x))
- Updated motors with 10% more HP and torque (unknown if Tesla actually made use of this)
- Lithium ion 12V battery
- Heated windshield wipers
- Matrix LED headlights (M3P and Y only)
- Mobile connector no longer included (May 2022)
- Removed ultrasonic sensors (~Oct 2022)
2023: (These are all changes that happened as part of the 2nd Model 3 refresh "Highland", this happens Nov 2023 for EU/Asia cars, Q1 2024 for NA)
- AP4 cameras with 4x resolution
- HW4 GPU that's >4x faster
- AP4 downgraded RAM from 16GB to 8GB, 256GB SSD to 128GB SSD
- New headrest
- Removed rear middle heated seats
- Base Model 3 changed brakes to Hitachi from Brembo
- Improved suspension comfort with updated springs, dampers, geometry, bushings
- Double pane acoustic glass on rear windows and rear windshield
- Upgraded to 17 speakers from 14. There is 2 subwoofers now.
- Updated front bumper design for 8% efficiency improvement. Cd now 0.219 vs 0.225 before
- Dedicated fog lights removed and integrated into the main headlight
- Updated wheel designs for all sizes
- Updated taillight design
- Ultra red now available
- Removed stalks, now buttons added to the wheel
- Screen size increased from 15" to 15.4" with a smaller screen bezel
- Added ambient lighting
- Removed wood panel
- Ventilated front seats
- Updated wiper design
- Redesigned center console, aluminum bits, better materials across
- More sound insulation material
- Updated bonnet design to reduce noise
- Updated tires for lower road noise, but reduced max speed to 125mph from 140mph
- Updated front control arm to aluminum housing to fix water ingress that causes squeaking
- Updated air vent design, now can turn off passenger vents
- Updated Bluetooth chip
- There is 2 microphones instead of 1, one for each front seat
- Updated Wi-Fi chip for 2x range
- Updated cellular modem for better range
- Added UWB support for better phone key support
- USB C charging upgraded to 65W
- Added 8" rear screen
- Updated rear seats and stitching
- Repositioned Lower Reflectors to the lower part of the rear bumper
- Updated Cooling Ducts with larger single inlet
- New Wheel Hubs and Brake Rotors, up to 20% improvement in front axle responsiveness
- Cargo volume increased from 23 cu ft to 24 cu ft
- Extra actuator (1 to 2) on the powered rear trunk
- Updated interior reinforcement structure for better crash performance and quieter door closing sound
- Added blind spot indicator lights
I'm going to go on a limb here and say... A facelift item can typically be retrofitted to a previous vehicle. A model change cannot. You cannot add a heat pump to a non heat pump vehicle. It is a fundamental design change in how the HVAC, and thermal management of the vehicle's HV battery function. (Not Tesla specific)
You can go HW2/2.5 to HW3 (mid year, or facelift), but you can't go to HW4, so HW3 to HW4 so that would be a model change.
I was able to retrofit the power trunk to my 2019 TM3, hepa filter to my 2021 TMY, and added Matrix headlights to both. These I would argue could be considered mid-year changes or facelift (by the traditional definition).
I'm going by the definition provided to me in this very thread...
Just typical model year changes for people into cars. 🤷♂️ And yes the sweet spot of a model will be at a different place for different people. And the highland one a facelift or full refresh. There were no structural nor platform changes nor major directions. Not even a new battery architecture. Just the same old. Nothing wrong with that, but it really isn’t unique or different.
With many brands an heat pump is a spec level option. That doesn’t mean it’s easy to diy to retrofit, nor makes economical sense. But that doesn’t mean it’s a whole new model.
I hear that you only know Tesla, but when multiple people explain how it works elsewhere and that it’s not that different perhaps it’s worthwhile to take note. 🤷♂️
By your definition no manufacture has ever had a model change, even traditional manufactures. My Audi B7 A4 wasn't different enough from the B6 platform by your definition.
Meanwhile, the 2025 Ioniq 5 is now assembled in the US and features a J3400 (NACS) charging port (vs the old CCS).
And interestingly, Tesla super chargers now show available on the Tesla app for my 2024 Ioniq 5, saying requires adapter (which I have), just, can't test it out as mine is still in the body shop. Repairs haven't even started and the initial estimate came in at ~ $8,400 ;(
And interestingly, Tesla super chargers now show available on the Tesla app for my 2024 Ioniq 5, saying requires adapter (which I have), just, can't test it out as mine is still in the body shop. Repairs haven't even started and the initial estimate came in at ~ $8,400 ;(
This is if it was already developed. We are talking about introducing a new technology that didn't already exist. If it already existed, and is separated by trim level, then it is NOT a change. The simple fact of introducing a NEW thing to a vehicle is what is being discussed as either a mid-year, facelift or new version. So, I disagree with this point.