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Eric5h5

macrumors 68020
Dec 9, 2004
2,494
604
EV’s need to reach a stage where they charge as quickly as filling a tank with fuel.
No they don't. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of how EVs work. They are not ICE cars and you don't operate them like one. The vast majority of the time, you charge at home. Maybe work. That way charging effectively takes zero time aside from a few seconds plugging/unplugging, and you only need to "fill up" at a station when doing long-haul trips, which statistically speaking is hardly ever for most people. People do long road trips once or twice a year usually. When you're driving a couple hundred miles at a time, it's not really an issue taking a 20-minute break occasionally, and is recommended anyway.

Before the "but apartment-dwellers" thing gets raised, the correct solution is to wire all residences for charging, which is already starting to happen, and will happen faster as EVs become more popular. You need to let go of the idea that you just swap ICE for EV and nothing changes. The EV way is better; having to make stops for fueling largely becomes a thing of the past. The idea of having to drive to special stations all the time will seem quaint and stupid. "How did we put up with that for so long?" It'll be even cooler when charging is automated in some way (wirelessly or otherwise), so you just park and never even really have to think about it.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
No they don't. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of how EVs work. They are not ICE cars and you don't operate them like one. The vast majority of the time, you charge at home. Maybe work. That way charging effectively takes zero time aside from a few seconds plugging/unplugging, and you only need to "fill up" at a station when doing long-haul trips, which statistically speaking is hardly ever for most people. People do long road trips once or twice a year usually. When you're driving a couple hundred miles at a time, it's not really an issue taking a 20-minute break occasionally, and is recommended anyway.

Before the "but apartment-dwellers" thing gets raised, the correct solution is to wire all residences for charging, which is already starting to happen, and will happen faster as EVs become more popular. You need to let go of the idea that you just swap ICE for EV and nothing changes. The EV way is better; having to make stops for fueling largely becomes a thing of the past. The idea of having to drive to special stations all the time will seem quaint and stupid. "How did we put up with that for so long?" It'll be even cooler when charging is automated in some way (wirelessly or otherwise), so you just park and never even really have to think about it.
Good read.

I do think at times, people tend to over complicate the whole charging/EV discussion. It almost gives them some type of like ‘battery anxiety’ of how they’re going to plan their day charging an EV, ergo; is now used as a deterrent of why EV’s aren’t practical. I think the reality is, once you base your schedule and develop a rhythm, you reach a point where you don’t even think about charging anymore. It’s Kind of like when you plug in your iPhone or iPad at night when you sleep, or similarly to how you brush your teeth when you wake up from charging your electronic toothbrush in the morning. It’s really no different once acclimated. I also suspect, most people have the same daily driving destinations, unless you’re in some type of ‘traveling profession’, then I can see the difficulty.

It'll be even cooler when charging is automated in some way (wirelessly or otherwise), so you just park and never even really have to think about it.
Heck yes. I can’t wait for the day when we start seeing the likes of long range wireless charging (Companies like Energous being a backer), not just for your electronic products in your house, but somehow where a grid is developed for your EV vehicle charging. I understand that’s nowhere near a timeline, but that’s something to behold.
 
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The-Real-Deal82

macrumors P6
Jan 17, 2013
17,326
25,485
Wales, United Kingdom
No they don't. That's a fundamental misunderstanding of how EVs work. They are not ICE cars and you don't operate them like one. The vast majority of the time, you charge at home. Maybe work. That way charging effectively takes zero time aside from a few seconds plugging/unplugging, and you only need to "fill up" at a station when doing long-haul trips, which statistically speaking is hardly ever for most people. People do long road trips once or twice a year usually. When you're driving a couple hundred miles at a time, it's not really an issue taking a 20-minute break occasionally, and is recommended anyway.

Before the "but apartment-dwellers" thing gets raised, the correct solution is to wire all residences for charging, which is already starting to happen, and will happen faster as EVs become more popular. You need to let go of the idea that you just swap ICE for EV and nothing changes. The EV way is better; having to make stops for fueling largely becomes a thing of the past. The idea of having to drive to special stations all the time will seem quaint and stupid. "How did we put up with that for so long?" It'll be even cooler when charging is automated in some way (wirelessly or otherwise), so you just park and never even really have to think about it.

EV’s are eventually going to be replacing petrol and diesel vehicles, so it is not a misunderstanding but a realistic long term expectation. You say most people don’t do long haul trips, but what about the transport network? Sales divisions etc?

Quite a few vehicles on the roads are doing a few hundred miles a day and right now the EV market might suit those who drive a short distance to a workplace and park up for 9 hours, but this is not representative of a fair amount of vehicles, certainly on European roads and at higher speeds than you would see in North America for instance. The technology is fantastic now but needs to get better before a full scale adoption is enforced. The British government are looking at around £82.1b in subsidies for EV adoption and roughly £1 trillion in support for the national grid as it stands. It’s a wonderful idea in essence, but there is a long way to go to improve the technology and infrastructure over the next 8 years. I think a more realistic date is 2040 personally.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,471
2,697
OBX
EV’s are eventually going to be replacing petrol and diesel vehicles, so it is not a misunderstanding but a realistic long term expectation. You say most people don’t do long haul trips, but what about the transport network? Sales divisions etc?

Quite a few vehicles on the roads are doing a few hundred miles a day and right now the EV market might suit those who drive a short distance to a workplace and park up for 9 hours, but this is not representative of a fair amount of vehicles, certainly on European roads and at higher speeds than you would see in North America for instance. The technology is fantastic now but needs to get better before a full scale adoption is enforced. The British government are looking at around £82.1b in subsidies for EV adoption and roughly £1 trillion in support for the national grid as it stands. It’s a wonderful idea in essence, but there is a long way to go to improve the technology and infrastructure over the next 8 years. I think a more realistic date is 2040 personally.
At least in the US there really isn't a whole lot of money to be made on charging networks due to demand charges. Especially when charging locations sit empty most of the time.
 
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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,471
2,697
OBX
Does the US have a 2030 mandate for stopping the manufacture of new fuel powered vehicles? I don’t know which is why I am asking.
No. Or at least not nationally. There are some states that have something like that drafted but I don't think it has passed.
 

macsound1

macrumors 6502a
May 17, 2007
835
866
SF Bay Area
Before the "but apartment-dwellers" thing gets raised, the correct solution is to wire all residences for charging, which is already starting to happen, and will happen faster as EVs become more popular. You need to let go of the idea that you just swap ICE for EV and nothing changes. The EV way is better; having to make stops for fueling largely becomes a thing of the past. The idea of having to drive to special stations all the time will seem quaint and stupid. "How did we put up with that for so long?" It'll be even cooler when charging is automated in some way (wirelessly or otherwise), so you just park and never even really have to think about it.
This truly exemplifies how EVs will be for the rich. If you could only afford a 10 year old civic and expect it to last another 10 years, how will you ever get an EV?

Maybe "all" apartments will have EV charging, but slumlords who don't fix the hot water or heating, but still has people living there because they literally don't have anywhere else affordable to live will NEVER have EV charging.

Also, lots and lots of people who live in apartments in big cities (SF that I know personally) only have street parking at home and street parking at work. Never a parking lot, carport, or garage to charge.

EV’s are eventually going to be replacing petrol and diesel vehicles, so it is not a misunderstanding but a realistic long term expectation. You say most people don’t do long haul trips, but what about the transport network? Sales divisions etc?

Quite a few vehicles on the roads are doing a few hundred miles a day and right now the EV market might suit those who drive a short distance to a workplace and park up for 9 hours, but this is not representative of a fair amount of vehicles, certainly on European roads and at higher speeds than you would see in North America for instance. The technology is fantastic now but needs to get better before a full scale adoption is enforced. The British government are looking at around £82.1b in subsidies for EV adoption and roughly £1 trillion in support for the national grid as it stands. It’s a wonderful idea in essence, but there is a long way to go to improve the technology and infrastructure over the next 8 years. I think a more realistic date is 2040 personally.
Totally! Everyone doesn't work in a posh office building!

The whole argument for EV charging is based on people who live in nice houses, have a big garage, and extra income to afford having an electrician come install a vehicle charger. They also work in a nice corporate environment where car chargers are free and plentiful.
If you've ever driven during the day and see all those cars and trucks on the road (not semis) you'll realize there's lots of people who spend all day driving between job sites who don't have a couple extra hours to spare charging.
 

tim.rand

macrumors member
Apr 25, 2010
32
14
I just got a Prius Prime last October. I’m still on the original gas tank. Haven’t bough gas yet but I’m down to a quarter tank. I get about 30 miles on a charge. From a simple 110 outlet that is about 5 hours. Half that with a public charger or home 240 volt charger. I like it a lot. The Toyota build quality is great.

I was going to get a full electric car but I think we are just on the cusp of major battery improvements. There has been a huge investment in batteries over the last decade. This has improved battery performance quite a bit, but the next commercialized improvement should be impressive. I expect we’ll see longer range, lower prices and better lifetime usage within three years.
I’ve had a Prius Prime since late 2016. I went from STL to Buffalo NY to buy it before the end of the year. Fun, easy trip. I love my Prime. Fabulous vehicle.

Toyota recommends you empty and fill the gas tank every 3-6 months. I’ve gotten 2700 miles on a 10 gallon tank.

I love that there’s no range restriction or fretting about finding a charger, sitting waiting for a charge and the vehicle has been trouble-free. Highly recommended.
 

tim.rand

macrumors member
Apr 25, 2010
32
14
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Eric5h5

macrumors 68020
Dec 9, 2004
2,494
604
This truly exemplifies how EVs will be for the rich.
Nope. Charging on streets etc. will be required. "But what about slumlords" blah blah. Always with the goalpost-moving, like VictorTango777 wrote above. You can find some edge cases if you look hard enough, but that's not a reason to throw up your hands and say "Well it's not perfect right now in every possible case so we might as well give up." You do need to understand that EVs are not a 1:1 drop-in replacement for ICE cars where you swap out gas stations for charging stations and everything is done in exactly the same way. There are some adjustments, and EVs aren't better in every single way (yet?), but they are better overall.

This reminds me a lot of the hand-wringing about physical keyboards that went on when iPhones came out. Maybe some people are too young to really remember it, but there was an awful lot of angst at the time. They still do have an advantage or two, but overall if you asked most people if they want a physical keyboard on their phone now the response would be "lolwut".
 

Mega ST

macrumors 6502
Feb 11, 2021
370
512
Europe
It has nothing to do with "angst" but with usability, facts and performance. On the longer run EVs might work better, especially when they get truly fully autonomous and can drive themselves to chargers. At that time batteries might have improved so the entire package might make sense (to me). Today they are not making sense to me at all. For certain user profiles they work no doubt.
EVs as we know them now are just are hyped aggressively they are not "better". I expect H2 to be the more promising energy storage compared to thousands of laptop batteries like in current generation EVs.
 

VictorTango777

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2017
893
1,634
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robd003

macrumors regular
Aug 21, 2007
223
611
Curious, with a Tesla, do you have to take it to the Tesla 'dealer' to have wipers, brake fluid changes and such, performed?
No you can do it yourself. If you have an issue with the electric motor you'd be stuck taking it to the dealer, but otherwise it's very self-serviceable.
 
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Strelok

macrumors 65816
Jun 6, 2017
1,471
1,721
United States
It has nothing to do with "angst" but with usability, facts and performance. On the longer run EVs might work better, especially when they get truly fully autonomous and can drive themselves to chargers. At that time batteries might have improved so the entire package might make sense (to me). Today they are not making sense to me at all. For certain user profiles they work no doubt.
EVs as we know them now are just are hyped aggressively they are not "better". I expect H2 to be the more promising energy storage compared to thousands of laptop batteries like in current generation EVs.
You have to get whatever is right for your situation, but I haven’t had to waste time at a gas station in over 9 months now. Go home, plug in, wake up to a charged car every morning. That’s more convenient to me than some edge case like driving across the country.
 

cr2

macrumors 6502
Feb 19, 2011
344
113
Have had a 2013 Tesla Model S P85+ now going on 8 years and it's still going strong; well strong for an 8 year old car. But considering no trips to the gas station, free supercharging, rear wheel driving, real leather, still getting updates, and paid for for the last 5 years - I'm satisfied. 😀
That is nice. How is the degradation of the range? I debated between X3 and Model Y. But Y was lot cheaper than X3 (basic 6 Cyl) and dealers gave me too much hard time. So I got Y a couple of weeks ago. Build quality has issues and a simple service (issue with original card keys) had a lot of challenges, I am disappointed with audio for phone calls (maybe mic placement or bluetooth issue) but I am happy so far.
 
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DeepIn2U

macrumors G5
May 30, 2002
13,051
6,985
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
If I'm understanding you correctly, I completely agree.
It's not how fast the battery charges, how long the battery life is, or how many horses it has, it's that what we've come to expect out of our expensive rolling transport is flexibility in nearly every aspect, something that EVs can't live up to.

What do you mean 'flexibility' in ICE cars exactly here?

Your current car (if petrol) cannot just simply take Diesel,
It cannot take Hydrogen, not without a properly spec'd and safety fuel cell and complete rebuild of all engine parts. ONLY the last generation Mazda RX-7 could - hydrogen fuel cell tank (maleable as it was from a polymer), and with specific new rotary seals. Mazda did this back in 1997 as a proof of concept that actually ran! Look this up.

Your current fossil fuel car in terms of flexibility is JUST as flexible as an electric top tier car. Remember back prior to 1912 most cars were NOT feasible or flexible as a stage coach and that coach has a LOT more mileage then and still today with a strong horse and lots of water and good horseshoes.

Porsche had a 2 motor running prototype with a top speed of 12mph in 1912 ... yes 1912! They never pursued beyond prototype as ONLY NYC had any - and a very small 12 block - infrastructure for electric charging for such cars. The rest was history with oil taking over.

Just case you can swap out gears (gearbox), transmission, wider selection of wheels/tires (which will come over time for EC's), or piston rings, connection rods etc etc - doesn't mean it's more 'flexible' its' actually a LOT more costly and a lot more headaches if you don't have a VERY good, experienced electrician.
 

44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
That is nice. How is the degradation of the range? I debated between X3 and Model Y. But Y was lot cheaper than X3 (basic 6 Cyl) and dealers gave me too much hard time. So I got Y a couple of weeks ago. Build quality has issues and a simple service (issue with original card keys) had a lot of challenges, I am disappointed with audio for phone calls (maybe mic placement or bluetooth issue) but I am happy so far.
Being that you’re a new Model Y owner, if you feel like it, I’d be curious to know what issues that you’ve taken notice of upon ownership?
 
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44267547

Cancelled
Jul 12, 2016
37,642
42,495
Gas prices are lower at the moment ;)
You’re from Poland, as you previously stated, so I’m not sure how you would know ‘gas prices are lower’, which certainly is not the case for many regions, actually; complete opposite of what you posted. If gas prices are lower in your country, then be specific. Fuel prices are unstable, especially in certain parts of North America, and depending on what type of vehicle you have, the cost savings with electric would be significant, given fuel has been inflated for quite some time.

A real car is better than an electric toy.
So why are you here? You want to lambaste electric cars, labeling them a ‘toy’, yet you offer no constructive feedback as to why a ‘real car’ is subjectively ‘better’ over an electric vehicle. Surely you’re not speaking for everybody’s situation, as that would just be a blanket statement.
 

iHorseHead

macrumors 68000
Jan 1, 2021
1,602
2,012
You’re from Poland, as you previously stated, so I’m not sure how you would know ‘gas prices are lower’, which certainly is not the case for many regions, actually; complete opposite of what you posted. If gas prices are lower in your country, then be specific. Fuel prices are unstable, especially in certain parts of North America, and depending on what type of vehicle you have, the cost savings with electric would be significant, given fuel has been inflated for quite some time.
The price of electricity are increasing in most European countries. Especially up there in the north and in the baltic states etc.

So why are you here? You want to lambaste electric cars, labeling them a ‘toy’, yet you offer no constructive feedback as to why a ‘real car’ is subjectively ‘better’ over an electric vehicle. Surely you’re not speaking for everybody’s situation, as that would just be a blanket statement.
Chargers suck, often don't work and get stuck etc.Chargers are the main issue.
 
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Apple fanboy

macrumors Ivy Bridge
Feb 21, 2012
57,081
56,125
Behind the Lens, UK
I think a better solution than electric cars is for more business to adopt working from home etc, shops delivering food etc.
Think about it. Ten years ago you had no option but to drive to the office 5 days a week. Drive to the supermarket 1-2 a week.
These days many don’t have to. If that trend continues that would be a much better solution than any commute.
Now I realise not every job can be done from home. But if they are the only ones left on the road, supporting a charging network becomes much easier. Less demand.
Right now there aren’t enough charging points for those that have to long haul.
Currently they are trying to turn 180 acres of farmland where I live into a solar farm because the government needs more electricity. But then we just ship more food in from abroad (in diesel ships).

There is no perfect green solution. I think it will take a mixture in how we live and how we think.
 
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