Who has or is planning to get an electric car / EV Talk

[rcread]

I would consider a Rivian truck for hauling when they improve their towing range. We haul a race car in an enclosed trailer from Seattle to California a few times a year. We can get to Sonoma in one day with the Ford F150. The R1T has about 150 miles of range, so it would likely need to be charged five times, one way, thus adding greatly to travel time. We spent $1,200 in gas hauling to Sonoma earlier this month. I am curious what the cost of charging would be for that trip. The Rivian would work for our daughter when she hauls her horses to local barrel races, but a lot of those races are in Wyoming, Idaho and Montana, where I don't expect infrastructure support for a while.

 

[44267547]

Lucid really impresses me with the styling, both inside and out. Other than the Cybertruck, I would say it’s one of the most futuristic vehicles that truly looks like it sets the bar of being the most striking. However, it’s not targeting median consumers by any means, when they have select models that top out at $130,000.

Not only that, But I think Lucid understands the market well enough that there will probably be a very limited number of these cars available. If you think about it, their base model starts at approximately $80,000, which doesn’t include tax, and any other associated fees, which will probably put that vehicle near $90,000, which isn’t really a realistic number or attractive for such a small segment of people that are considering an EV. The other flipside, is how many people actually even know who Lucid it is? Versus say something like the Ford Lightning, where Ford has a lengthy history of branding. So I’d say they’re probably in a similar scenario akin to Rivian.

I’d Compare Lucid to the likes of Apple, where they’re probably will give you a very unique experience, but I at a very high premium.

 

[macsound1]

There are EVs that can accommodate that trip. They may not be at the price point you would like, but they do exist.

There are EVs that can drive almost 1000 miles without screwing up my tight timing and not require me to stay at a hotel with parking lot charging?

 

[diamond.g]

There are EVs that can drive almost 1000 miles without screwing up my tight timing and not require me to stay at a hotel with parking lot charging?

In this case, no there aren't any "production" EVs that can go 1000 miles on a charge. One with that kind of range likely won't exist for the next 3-4 years.

I also shudder to think of the size of such a battery (probably going to have to be ~150kWh) in respects to charging it at home on a 11 kW connection (because a regular wall plug would be useless for such a big battery). But I guess it would be fine if you are willing to pay double to triple the price at a DC fast charger to charge (and time spent waiting on it to charge).

 

[Ruggy]

The infra-structure is really the key. We aren't there yet unfortunately.
There are two key points here: one is the capacity of the grid, substations etc and the other is charging infra-structure.

At the moment almost no one has the ability to charge two cars from home at the same time- and that's here in Europe with 220v service. It would trip the supply and even trying to charge a Model X recently tripped the supply when the dish washer kicked in.

That also leads to big questions about whether the subs-stations would even be able to provide for demand.
Just looking along where I live, I can see 11 cars in just 4 houses- which probably isn't that unusual. Imagine if they were all electric- there's no way the local grid would cope and that's not even asking questions about old wiring laid down maybe 40 years ago.

The charging infrastructure has be be a lot more extensive.
At the moment we can charge about 80% of a car battery in under 40 minutes but what if we could charge at a loop in the road when we stopped at the lights for example?

As soon as the infra-structure increases then batteries get smaller and with less weight the range actually increases.

That's the irony: at the moment the range is limited by them weighing a ton or more because of range anxiety.
But take away the anxiety and then the batteries are a quarter of the size, range is much improved and charging times are down to a few minutes.

We'd probably need some sort of loop on the freeway/motorway but it's all doable if they put the money in.

The world is going electric. In America you have never really adopted diesels and I understand why but diesels are great cars to drive too and they also have enormous torque just like the electric cars do.

But the downside apart from the unlovely noise is that the difference in pollution levels is really noticeable. You might think your city is polluted where you are but you have no idea how much worse it is when more than 50% of all the cars are giving out minute particles. And the problem isn't really the 90% of diesel vehicles it's the 10% which are badly maintained and drive down the road giving off black smoke like a burning tyre.(tire)

We will still have to solve the problem of trucks but buses are pretty much all electric in cities over here.

And with the horrendous death figures in our cities from pollution we have to do something about it. No one knows really but in lockdown everyone really noticed the difference when there were no cars on the road.

I for one will certainly miss the sound of a beautiful engine. Probably one of the most beautiful sounds there is but we really need to do it, not because of global warming (if they really wanted to do something about that they would ban wood burning stoves) but because of the global impact on health caused by car pollution in cities.

 

[JT2002TJ]

At the moment almost no one has the ability to charge two cars from home at the same time- and that's here in Europe with 220v service. It would trip the supply and even trying to charge a Model X recently tripped the supply when the dish washer kicked in.

While I agree about the infrastructure not being there yet (for distance traveling), I would like to point out the quoted part above is more to do with your home wiring than the general infrastructure. You need to run a dedicated circuit to the outlet used for charging. With my 200 amp 110v service at my house (and gas for heat/stove/dryer and no central AC) I have adequate service at my house to run 2 dedicated 220v 30 amp circuits to my garage. For 220v 50 amp service, I would have to run one 220v 50 amp and have another dedicated outlet as a 110v top off (using the 220v charger for the vehicle that needs it most).

I do not have an EV yet. I am at a crossroad in my usual practice, I have never bought a new car. I always buy Certified Pre-Owned with Factory warranty and the CPO extended warranty. I have stayed away from Hybrids and EV because of the fear of battery degradation on the used market.

I am the perfect candidate for an EV, I commute 28 miles per day each way for work, it is mostly bumper to bumper traffic (45 mins in, and 1.5+hrs home). I have my own home with a garage and 2 car driveway.

Right now I commute in an manual e46 325i (2003), and have a 2015 Ram Hemi 1500. The e46 has 92k miles on it, so as long as it doesn't fail on me I have a few years before I will need to replace it. An EV or Hybrid (plug in) will be high on my search criteria.

 

[diamond.g]

If you have an "advanced" EVSE you can do load sharing off "one" circuit so you don't pull too much power when charging multiple EV's.

 

[VictorTango777]

Can we address the amount of goal post moving by people who argue against EVs:

Range
First people complain that it can't go 100 miles on a charge.
When EVs start going 200 miles on a charge, then the argument becomes it can't go 300 miles.
When it goes 300 miles, then the argument becomes it can't go 1000 miles.

Battery life
First people complain that EV batteries have short lifespans.
When Toyota increases their hybrid battery warranty to 10 years/150,000 miles, and when Tesla vehicle data shows only 10 percent battery degradation after 200,000 miles, then the argument becomes you can't replace individual battery cells.

Charging time
First people complain that EV charging takes several hours.
When DC fast charging becomes available, then the argument becomes it's not under an hour.
When the newest DC fast chargers can charge to 80% in 30 minutes, then the argument becomes it's not under 10 minutes.

Performance
First people complain that EVs are like golf carts.
When EVs like Tesla outrace multimillion dollar supercars and even motorcycles, then the argument becomes who needs that much power and speed anyway?

Another goal post move:

Charging locations
First people complain that there are not enough public EV charging stations.
When Tesla constantly adds new Supercharger locations, the argument changes to only Teslas can use them.
When other companies increase their charging locations, and when Tesla announces plans to open Superchargers to other cars, the argument changes to I don’t want to charge at all but stopping at a gas station to pump gas is still ok.

 

[JT2002TJ]

Another goal post move:

Charging locations
First people complain that there are not enough public EV charging stations.
When Tesla constantly adds new Supercharger locations, the argument changes to only Teslas can use them.
When other companies increase their charging locations, and when Tesla announces plans to open Superchargers to other cars, the argument changes to I don’t want to charge at all but stopping at a gas station to pump gas is still ok.

Perhaps it isn't really a goal post move, but more of a different set of people have issues.

I would still guess that majority of people find EV impractical. So, if you talk to one group, their issue might be lack of charging locations (based on their area), another group of people may have issues with an early 200 range (they may only have one vehicle, and routinely do trips that require 200+ mile trips), another entirely separate group of people may have issues with a 400 mile range (as they routinely do trips that require 350+ mile trips).

There are many reasons why people don't want to make the switch as it wont work for their use case. Each goal post may be too far to a different subset of people.

I am fortunate enough to always have 3 vehicles between my wife and I. My goal post was (as I stated above) 2 things:

1) Used market (lifespan of batteries) as I never buy new
2) Range for long trips (I'm making a 1,000 mile road trip this weekend and trying to do it in 20 hours)

For me Hybrids will win and be the only solution for the average American until EV charging takes approximately the same amount of time to fully charge as it does to get gas (total time, including waiting in line).

The last time I was on a motorcycle trip, I was at a rest top in MA, there were 4 Tesla charging stations in front of the building, all 4 were filled by non-EV's. The parking lot was full, and those 4 spots were the closest non-handicap spots to the building.

I am a big fan of EVs (my sister has a model 3 and loves it but also is in a 3 vehicle household with 2 drivers), but most people I know could not survive with an EV as their only vehicle (they would have to rent hybrid/ICE vehicles at least 3-4 times a year).

 

[diamond.g]

Perhaps it isn't really a goal post move, but more of a different set of people have issues.

I would still guess that majority of people find EV impractical. So, if you talk to one group, their issue might be lack of charging locations (based on their area), another group of people may have issues with an early 200 range (they may only have one vehicle, and routinely do trips that require 200+ mile trips), another entirely separate group of people may have issues with a 400 mile range (as they routinely do trips that require 350+ mile trips).

There are many reasons why people don't want to make the switch as it wont work for their use case. Each goal post may be too far to a different subset of people.

I am fortunate enough to always have 3 vehicles between my wife and I. My goal post was (as I stated above) 2 things:

1) Used market (lifespan of batteries) as I never buy new
2) Range for long trips (I'm making a 1,000 mile road trip this weekend and trying to do it in 20 hours)

For me Hybrids will win and be the only solution for the average American until EV charging takes approximately the same amount of time to fully charge as it does to get gas (total time, including waiting in line).

The last time I was on a motorcycle trip, I was at a rest top in MA, there were 4 Tesla charging stations in front of the building, all 4 were filled by non-EV's. The parking lot was full, and those 4 spots were the closest non-handicap spots to the building.

I am a big fan of EVs (my sister has a model 3 and loves it but also is in a 3 vehicle household with 2 drivers), but most people I know could not survive with an EV as their only vehicle (they would have to rent hybrid/ICE vehicles at least 3-4 times a year).

Not to get caught up in an argument, but when folks ask how long it takes to charge, the answer I tend to give is it charges while I sleep, so it doesn’t matter. What I suspect people really want to know is how long it takes to charge if you have to stop and charge at a DC fast charger, and the answer there honestly is more complicated. You could quote 0-80% times (as manufacturers do) and say 20 minutes, but really for most EV’s the curve is the fastest the closest to empty you are. So in a Tesla it is possible to hop from charger to charger not spending more then 10 minutes at each one as long as you show up with ~5% remaining range or so. Most people just are not comfortable doing that.

 

[quagmire]

Not to get caught up in an argument, but when folks ask how long it takes to charge, the answer I tend to give is it charges while I sleep, so it doesn’t matter. What I suspect people really want to know is how long it takes to charge if you have to stop and charge at a DC fast charger, and the answer there honestly is more complicated. You could quote 0-80% times (as manufacturers do) and say 20 minutes, but really for most EV’s the curve is the fastest the closest to empty you are. So in a Tesla it is possible to hop from charger to charger not spending more then 10 minutes at each one as long as you show up with ~5% remaining range or so. Most people just are not comfortable doing that.

Yep it all depends on what their perception is being based off when they are asking about charge times. If they ask it generically and you just answer, " 8 hours on 240V", they can be turned off instantly and gain negative opinion on EV's.

But that is 0-100% at home, but as you point out it will be when you're sleeping. Also you don't do 0-100% charges. For me, it takes about an hour and a half to recover the electricity I used during my commute when I go from 45%-60/65% SoC.

Then you have fast charging and can vary as you stated.

 

[The-Real-Deal82]

Another goal post move:

Charging locations
First people complain that there are not enough public EV charging stations.
When Tesla constantly adds new Supercharger locations, the argument changes to only Teslas can use them.
When other companies increase their charging locations, and when Tesla announces plans to open Superchargers to other cars, the argument changes to I don’t want to charge at all but stopping at a gas station to pump gas is still ok.

It’s also worth remembering not everybody on this forum is from the same country. This is an international forum so the situation in regards to infrastructure for EV’s will not be the same everywhere.

 

[VictorTango777]

1) Used market (lifespan of batteries) as I never buy new
2) Range for long trips (I'm making a 1,000 mile road trip this weekend and trying to do it in 20 hours)

For me Hybrids will win and be the only solution for the average American until EV charging takes approximately the same amount of time to fully charge as it does to get gas (total time, including waiting in line).

So not only do the goal posts for EVs keep being moved, but EVs are also being held to standards that most gas cars are unable to meet. An EV not able to go 1000 miles on a single charge is unacceptable. And having to charge an EV even once at a Supercharger/DC fast charger is just too much. But repeatedly stopping at gas stations to fill up is perfectly ok.

 

[Apple fanboy]

So not only do the goal posts for EVs keep being moved, but EVs are also being held to standards that most gas cars are unable to meet. An EV not able to go 1000 miles on a single charge is unacceptable. And having to charge an EV even once at a Supercharger/DC fast charger is just too much. But repeatedly stopping at gas stations to fill up is perfectly ok.

I don’t think the goal posts move all the time. An electric car that can do 1000 miles is unrealistic. But when I stop for petrol it’s a 5 minute stop. It’s not that big a deal and I do it less than once a week.

 

[Strelok]

I don’t think the goal posts move all the time. An electric car that can do 1000 miles is unrealistic. But when I stop for petrol it’s a 5 minute stop. It’s not that big a deal and I do it less than once a week.

So the gas station is always on the way to your destination? The actual filling is quick sure, but you still have to drive there.

 

[quagmire]

So not only do the goal posts for EVs keep being moved, but EVs are also being held to standards that most gas cars are unable to meet. An EV not able to go 1000 miles on a single charge is unacceptable. And having to charge an EV even once at a Supercharger/DC fast charger is just too much. But repeatedly stopping at gas stations to fill up is perfectly ok.

Hey an 1000 mile range is a lot better than the person a few pages back that said they wouldn’t buy an EV until it could go 5000 miles on a single charge.…..

 

[Apple fanboy]

So the gas station is always on the way to your destination? The actual filling is quick sure, but you still have to drive there.

Yes pretty much in my country that’s how it works.

 

[VictorTango777]

I don’t think the goal posts move all the time. An electric car that can do 1000 miles is unrealistic. But when I stop for petrol it’s a 5 minute stop. It’s not that big a deal and I do it less than once a week.

Admitting that 1000 miles on a single charge is unrealistic is just “proof” that EVs will never be good enough. By not mentioning the continually growing Supercharging/DC fast charging networks, are EV opponents unaware that Supercharging/DC fast charging exist? Or are they intentionally forbidding EVs from charging while on a trip but excusing gas cars having to stop at gas stations to fill up?

 

[Apple fanboy]

Admitting that 1000 miles on a single charge is unrealistic is just “proof” that EVs will never be good enough. By not mentioning the continually growing Supercharging/DC fast charging networks, are EV opponents unaware that Supercharging/DC fast charging exist? Or are they intentionally forbidding EVs from charging while on a trip but excusing gas cars having to stop at gas stations to fill up?

You seem to have a very strange stance. I’m not anti electric cars at all. I’m not sure why you think I am? I’m just not in the market for one. The supercharging network still has a long way to go where I live before it’s anywhere as easy to charge as it is to fill up. But when the time comes for me to upgrade my 52mpg car, I’ll certainly evaluate the situation.

 

[Tagbert]

I don’t think the goal posts move all the time. An electric car that can do 1000 miles is unrealistic. But when I stop for petrol it’s a 5 minute stop. It’s not that big a deal and I do it less than once a week.

And I haven’t had to stop for charging in months. Every day, i get in my fully charged EV and drive away.

Some things will be a little different between Gas and EV cars. Many things are better in an EV but some things will not be quite as good like charging times on the road. They are getting better but it will be a while before they can get to 5 minute charge times. Is that really such a primary need that it overweighs everything else?

 

[Apple fanboy]

And I haven’t had to stop for charging in months. Every day, i get in my fully charged EV and drive away.

Some things will be a little different between Gas and EV cars. Many things are better in an EV but some things will not be quite as good like charging times on the road. They are getting better but it will be a while before they can get to 5 minute charge times. Is that really such a primary need that it overweighs everything else?

For me no. But the asking price is of the ones with the decent range.

 

[JT2002TJ]

So not only do the goal posts for EVs keep being moved, but EVs are also being held to standards that most gas cars are unable to meet. An EV not able to go 1000 miles on a single charge is unacceptable. And having to charge an EV even once at a Supercharger/DC fast charger is just too much. But repeatedly stopping at gas stations to fill up is perfectly ok.

I'm not sure where you got that I asked an EV to go 1,000 miles on a single charge... If you wouldn't mind, can you please quote where I stated that? I remember stating that I need EV to be able to fill up on a trip in the same amount of time it takes to fill a gas tank with a gas or hybrid vehicle, including waiting in line at the pump.

And I NEVER have an issue finding an gas station. Well, maybe I did one time when I was in college 20+ years ago, when I was on my motorcycle riding across west Texas, where I could only go 120 miles on a tank. I carried gas because there are spots where you need to go close to 120 miles between small town gas stations.

I just got back from driving 3k miles between 12/23/21 - 12/31/21 in my Ram 1500 with 32 gallon tank. For about half of the trip I was towing a uhaul car trailer with a 5k+ lbs Lexus rx350L on the trailer (total was around 7k lbs):



When I drive, I go from full tank to close to empty, and am able to fill my tank, use the bathroom, and grab food to eat while back on the road. This takes about 20-30 minutes as long as I hit a truckers gas station (flying J) that has lots of pumps and lots of bathroom stalls. I would be willing to give an extra 10 minutes so a total of 30-40 mins for connecting to a charger and charging, as long as I can go another 400 miles.

I will admit, during this trip I was taking notice of charging stations. Tesla is doing something right. They finally got smart, the charging stations are FAR from the buildings (so wont be blocked by non-EV drivers), and I think I counted an average of 10 charges at stations that had EV charging. So they are coming in, and are ready for use. The last road trip I did, the only charging stations were next to the building and were blocked by non-EV cars.

 

[Apple fanboy]

I'm not sure where you got that I asked an EV to go 1,000 miles on a single charge... If you wouldn't mind, can you please quote where I stated that? I remember stating that I need EV to be able to fill up on a trip in the same amount of time it takes to fill a gas tank with a gas or hybrid vehicle, including waiting in line at the pump.

And I NEVER have an issue finding an gas station. Well, maybe I did one time when I was in college 20+ years ago, when I was on my motorcycle riding across west Texas, where I could only go 120 miles on a tank. I carried gas because there are spots where you need to go close to 120 miles between small town gas stations.

I just got back from driving 3k miles between 12/23/21 - 12/31/21 in my Ram 1500 with 32 gallon tank. For about half of the trip I was towing a uhaul car trailer with a 5k+ lbs Lexus rx350L on the trailer (total was around 7k lbs):



When I drive, I go from full tank to close to empty, and am able to fill my tank, use the bathroom, and grab food to eat while back on the road. This takes about 20-30 minutes as long as I hit a truckers gas station (flying J) that has lots of pumps and lots of bathroom stalls. I would be willing to give an extra 10 minutes so a total of 30-40 mins for connecting to a charger and charging, as long as I can go another 400 miles.

I will admit, during this trip I was taking notice of charging stations. Tesla is doing something right. They finally got smart, the charging stations are FAR from the buildings (so wont be blocked by non-EV drivers), and I think I counted an average of 10 charges at stations that had EV charging. So they are coming in, and are ready for use. The last road trip I did, the only charging stations were next to the building and were blocked by non-EV cars.

In the U.K. the charging stations at big motorway service stations are usually right next to the building. As you say this is a mistake. When you pull up you’d prefer to be able to pull right into one or worst case scenario, have a clear line of people waiting so you know if you will wait or push on to the next station. But by putting them next to the buildings, it’s just a mess of cars with people trying not to walk too far.
When I stop on a long journey I park a way away. Less likely to get a fender bender and I like the walk. Good for my legs etc!

 

[Tagbert]

In the U.K. the charging stations at big motorway service stations are usually right next to the building. As you say this is a mistake. When you pull up you’d prefer to be able to pull right into one or worst case scenario, have a clear line of people waiting so you know if you will wait or push on to the next station. But by putting them next to the buildings, it’s just a mess of cars with people trying not to walk too far.
When I stop on a long journey I park a way away. Less likely to get a fender bender and I like the walk. Good for my legs etc!

Those chargers are built next to the building because the power cabling is shorter and cheaper that way. It has always been frustrating as that causes congestion and contention with other vehicles.

 

[Apple fanboy]

Those chargers are built next to the building because the power cabling is shorter and cheaper that way. It has always been frustrating as that causes congestion and contention with other vehicles.

Appreciate why they do it. But it just adds to the reasons why I’m hesitant to make the switch. I see the queues and stories about fights breaking out at charging stations. I realise that’s not the norm. But I’m a cautious guy.