Why is Big Sur so ugly?

[-BigMac-]

2 weeks, and you're done. or... you could live with it, adapt, and you'd wake up one morning realizing you're just using your mac, and the GUI has become background to your actual work.

i always think people who do this (revert), will eventually update, then, when the next OS comes along and something's changed, will complain, then revert again back again one OS (this time to big sur). and so on.

“Or you could live with it” - not why people spend thousands of dollars on these machines. It should be justified for its cause.
To my knowledge, I don’t recall people here begging for a big iPad experience on their $50,000 Mac Pros for professional use.

I’ve been using MacOS for work for 10+ years and this is the first version of it that feels like a toy when I use it.
Specifically the iOS menu bar menus and App Icons.

Inevitably we will all be forced to update once we upgrade the hardware but til then I’m going to try refrain.

 

[fisherking]

“Or you could live with it” - not why people spend thousands of dollars on these machines. It should be justified for its cause.
To my knowledge, I don’t recall people here begging for a big iPad experience on their $50,000 Mac Pros for professional use.

I’ve been using MacOS for work for 10+ years and this is the first version of it that feels like a toy when I use it.
Specifically the iOS menu bar menus and App Icons.

Inevitably we will all be forced to update once we upgrade the hardware but til then I’m going to try refrain.

i have no idea what you're on about. i've been using mac OS for 20 years, and alway move forward, and always get my real work done... which is what matters most.

you don't like it? fine. you think it's a giant ipad experience? i just see a slightly-modified mac OS on the surface, and am enjoying the more important aspect: what's under the hood.

do whatever works for you, but obviously ppl here (and in the real world), and apple itself... see it differently.

 

[-BigMac-]

i have no idea what you're on about. i've been using mac os for 20 years, and alway move forward, and always get my real work done... which is what matters most.

you don't like it? fine. you think it's a giant ipad experience? i just see a slightly-modified OS on the surface, and am enjoying the more important aspect: what's under the hood.

do whatever works for you, but obviously ppl here (and in the real world), and apple itself... see it differently.

I don’t know why you are so angry/defensive when all I did was share my opinion and agree on a thread which is literally titled “Why is Big Sur so ugly?”.

I like how you say “do whatever works for you, but obviously ppl here (and in the real world), and apple itself... see it differently.”
Are you implying I’m not in the real world? You ok mate?

 

[tomi03]

i have no idea what you're on about. i've been using mac OS for 20 years, and alway move forward, and always get my real work done... which is what matters most.

you don't like it? fine. you think it's a giant ipad experience? i just see a slightly-modified mac OS on the surface, and am enjoying the more important aspect: what's under the hood.

do whatever works for you, but obviously ppl here (and in the real world), and apple itself... see it differently.

Under the hood there’s tons of bugs, and kernel panics, and drivers working pretty bad in the real world, and now bad design, it’s a whole new experience...

 

[fisherking]

Under the hood there’s tons of bugs, and kernel panics, and drivers working pretty bad in the real world, and now bad design, it’s a whole new experience...

sure, and how is this different from any other version of an apple (or any) OS? all OSes are a work-in-progress, there's never that 'perfect' moment where no one anywhere has an issue-free experience.

but big sur is (mostly) running beautifully on my macbook, and how it runs, for me, is more important than how it looks (unless it's hideous, which it's not).

 

[-BigMac-]

sure, and how is this different from any other version of an apple (or any) OS? all OSes are a work-in-progress, there's never that 'perfect' moment where no one anywhere has an issue-free experience.

but big sur is (mostly) running beautifully on my macbook, and how it runs, for me, is more important than how it looks (unless it's hideous, which it's not).

Cool, well clearly not everyone is having your amazing experience, and they're in this thread to share that.

Also, you stated what's under the hood is more important to you than aesthetics, but when someone says theres kernel panics and the real world use is actually pretty average.. you turn ignorant and kind of counter your whole argument "there's never that 'perfect' moment where no one anywhere has an issue-free experience."

Thats what this thread is about. We have issues with this OS version.

So when you earlier told me to disappear into the Catalina threads, why not go create the "Big Sur is the best OS ever" thread and hide there. You're bumming out this thread by attacking everyone.

 

[fisherking]

Cool, well clearly not everyone is having your amazing experience, and they're in this thread to share that.

Also, you stated what's under the hood is more important to you than aesthetics, but when someone says theres kernel panics and the real world use is actually pretty average.. you turn ignorant and kind of counter your whole argument "there's never that 'perfect' moment where no one anywhere has an issue-free experience."

Thats what this thread is about. We have issues with this OS version.

So when you earlier told me to disappear into the Catalina threads, why not go create the "Big Sur is the best OS ever" thread and hide there. You're bumming out this thread by attacking everyone.

you have to read what i wrote, not read between the lines. every version of mac OS has had issues; some are universal, most are specific to various users' setups and needs. big sur is no different in that respect. and some of big sur's problems will be ironed out before the official release, and others... after.

as always.

EDIT: also, fwiw, this thread is about big sur being 'ugly', not about ppl having issues with the OS as an OS...

 

[Wowfunhappy]

you have to read what i wrote, not read between the lines. every version of mac OS has had issues; some are universal, most are specific to various users' setups and needs. big sur is no different in that respect. and some of big sur's problems will be ironed out before the official release, and others... after.

And this is why I'd really like Apple to slow down the yearly updates.

The best releases of macOS were Snow Leopard, Mountain Lion, and High Sierra. What do they all have in common? They were all polish releases that didn't add (many) new features. Maybe Apple should just add those more slowly in general.

Yes, it’s 2020, there’s no need for a chime to differentiate the brand, I know people like that kind of tuning, but these days it’s meh... I want a quiet quite laptop without kernel panics, not some kind of horn announcing I turned on my laptop or desktop.

Everyone kind of made fun of you (sorry), but I want to come back to this for a moment, because I think it hits on something larger.

I like the startup chime. Others don't. There's a setting, which is great, but only for users who can find it, as you evidently could not. Apple has to make a choice—add a chime, or don't add a chime.—and there's no right answer.

In 1984, Apple decided to have a startup chime. In ~2017, they changed their mind, and disabled the chime (by default) on their hardware lineup. And now in 2020, Apple has changed their mind again, saying in essence, just kidding guys, having the chime was better.

Changing your mind after 25 years is more than reasonable—the computing landscape has shifted a lot, and so old decisions need to be re-evaluated. But changing your mind again a few years later is less reasonable. Again, enable the chime or don't, at the end of the day there's no right answer. But, making some choice is better than not making a choice. Consistency matters—it lets users know what to expect from the tools they rely on. Changing someone's computer out from under them for no reason is always a net negative.

Which brings us back to Big Sur's design changes. I think Big Sur looks great, especially if Apple refines it a bit over the next few years. But, I have to wonder, are they going to throw it all out again seven years from now, when they get bored? Is that really helping their customers?

Classic Mac OS also went through several design changes, and even OS X saw lots of iterative design updates early on (although they were iterative—we didn't get a full makeover until Yosemite). But, those changes made sense in the context of the time—the platforms were new, and Apple was still figuring them out. Color screens necessitated interfaces that used color. Larger screens allowed programs to do more with that extra space.

Well, personal computers have been around for 30 years now, and I think we all basically understand what a Mac is for. On a mature platform like the Mac, every change ought to be clearly focused on one question: What problem are you trying to solve?



"The problem we're trying to solve is, we need an interface design with larger tap targets so we can add touch screen support to the Mac."

And suddenly, a lot of things would start to make sense... Just sayin'.

 

[macrem]

My first impression of Big Sur was everything that changed looked better except icons due to the shape, but I overall liked the details. The shape somehow grew on me quickly, so now I really like the new look.

 

[Feyl]

Cool, well clearly not everyone is having your amazing experience, and they're in this thread to share that.

Also, you stated what's under the hood is more important to you than aesthetics, but when someone says theres kernel panics and the real world use is actually pretty average.. you turn ignorant and kind of counter your whole argument "there's never that 'perfect' moment where no one anywhere has an issue-free experience."

Thats what this thread is about. We have issues with this OS version.

So when you earlier told me to disappear into the Catalina threads, why not go create the "Big Sur is the best OS ever" thread and hide there. You're bumming out this thread by attacking everyone.

Great response!

 

[tomi03]

And this is why I'd really like Apple to slow down the yearly updates.

The best releases of macOS were Snow Leopard, Mountain Lion, and High Sierra. What do they all have in common? They were all polish releases that didn't add (many) new features. Maybe Apple should just add those more slowly in general.



Everyone kind of made fun of you (sorry), but I want to come back to this for a moment, because I think it hits on something larger.

I like the startup chime. Others don't. There's a setting, which is great, but only for users who can find it, as you evidently could not. Apple has to make a choice—add a chime, or don't add a chime.—and there's no right answer.

In 1984, Apple decided to have a startup chime. In ~2017, they changed their mind, and disabled the chime (by default) on their hardware lineup. And now in 2020, Apple has changed their mind again, saying in essence, just kidding guys, having the chime was better.

Changing your mind after 25 years is more than reasonable—the computing landscape has shifted a lot, and so old decisions need to be re-evaluated. But going back on that decision a few years later is less reasonable. Again, enable the chime or don't, at the end of the day there's no right answer. But, making some choice is better than not making a choice. Consistency matters—it lets users know what to expect from the tools they rely on. Changing someone's computer out from under them does not benefit anyone.

Which brings us back to Big Sur's design changes. I think Big Sur looks great, especially if Apple refines it a bit over the next few years. But, I have to wonder, are they going to throw it all out again seven years from now, when they get bored? Is that really helping their customers?

Classic Mac OS also went through several design changes, and even OS X saw lots of iterative design updates early on (although they were iterative—we didn't get a full makeover until Yosemite). But, those changes made sense in the context of the time—the platforms were new, and Apple was still figuring them out. Color screens necessitated interfaces that used color. Larger screens allowed programs to do more with that extra space.

Well, personal computers have been around for 30 years now, and I think we all basically understand what a Mac is for. On a mature platform like the Mac, every change ought to be clearly focused on one question: What problem are you trying to solve?



"The problem we're trying to solve is, we need an interface design with larger tap targets so we can add touch screen support to the Mac."

And suddenly, a lot of things would start to make sense... Just sayin'.

As I said before it’s just an annoying, and unnecessary sound, it doesn’t add anything besides old memories, and it is turned on by default. Not pleasing for non octogenarian people.

Big Sur is not visually pleasing at all, it looks bad, it has a lot of inconsistencies, the contrast is awful, and nothing will change; just because some people enjoy the past doesn’t mean we all need to live there.

 

[Wowfunhappy]

As I said before it’s just an annoying, and unnecessary sound, it doesn’t add anything besides old memories, and it is turned on by default. Not pleasing for non octogenarian people.

I hope I made it clear in my post that I think your opinion is perfectly valid. An alternate take would be, the sound lets the user know that something is happening and the computer is working, in the split second before anything actually appears on screen.

But one way or the other, Apple certainly shouldn't be changing the defaults willynilly every couple of years.

 

[StellarVixen]

You can actually do this in High Sierra and Mojave. Thanks to some great work by @StellarVixen, who is also in this thread. https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/mavericks-window-control-buttons-for-mojave.2162605/

Also, Redheeler and Alan Nyholm have made some good work, you can check theirs out, too.

 

[fisherking]

And this is why I'd really like Apple to slow down the yearly updates.

The best releases of macOS were Snow Leopard, Mountain Lion, and High Sierra. What do they all have in common? They were all polish releases that didn't add (many) new features. Maybe Apple should just add those more slowly in general.

the best releases for you; snow leopard was (for many, myself included) a great moment, but i wouldn't revisit mountain lion for anything. i prefer catalina to high sierra, and...

that's the point. if you ask 50 people on this forum what the best mac OS was, you'll get many different answers. same with "is big sur ugly". but to expect apple to accomodate any single one of us (or, say, 7 of us) is absurb. most macusers are more concerned with getting their email, or surfing the web, or working, than whether the icon spacing on the menu bar is better or worse than before.

so we discuss (and whine, a lot), and life goes on. i admit i spend too much time on this forum (i sometimes get or offer help, my better moments); i get caught up in these 'discussions'; at least it's entertaining.

 

[jayducharme]

Those icons are a result of a new design trend, neumorphism.

Fascinating article! I really like the hypothetical examples early in the article; it's very obvious what's clickable and what's been activated. It seems like Apple didn't want to dive too deeply into that world and so took a baby step instead with only some minor icon adjustments. But I wish they had gone all the way with neumorphism. It's a much more intuitive design than the current iOS iteration. Using difficult-to-see text as links was IMO one of the worst design decisions they ever made.

 

[darngooddesign]

Maybe BigSur will be the thing that brings back OSX theming.

 

[nickdalzell1]

I keep saying that Big Sur is only the beginning, assuming the naysayers don't stop progress before it's begun, that is. I'm just plain sick of flat design given I lived through it originally in the 80s-90s and was glad to see it gone in the 2000s only to find out it comes back in 2013, or 2015 if you used Samsung.

Personally, if I wanted to relive the glory days when flat design was the norm (because that's all that those systems could do at the time) I'd buy an Amiga.

 

[fisherking]

I keep saying that Big Sur is only the beginning, assuming the naysayers don't stop progress before it's begun, that is. I'm just plain sick of flat design given I lived through it originally in the 80s-90s and was glad to see it gone in the 2000s only to find out it comes back in 2013, or 2015 if you used Samsung.

Personally, if I wanted to relive the glory days when flat design was the norm (because that's all that those systems could do at the time) I'd buy an Amiga.

flat design in 2020 is nothing like flat design was in the 80s-90s. and big sur won't change much between now & the official release.

personally, have gotten used to the GUI, and like it. safari looks really nice right now (dark mode, with the highlighted tabs, finally). this is what we'll be looking at for the next year.

but someday, the power will go out, and we'll all be forced back into filofaxes, paper calendars, and snail mail (that day may not come for a long time tho)

 

[Wowfunhappy]

I don't even think calling 80s-90s UIs a form of "flat design" is particularly accurate. I mean, it is true in a literal sense, but it wasn't done as a design choice—it was merely all the designers had to work with.

You can't make a 3D icon on a two-color 16x16 pixel grid. It doesn't work.

 

[-BigMac-]

I keep saying that Big Sur is only the beginning, assuming the naysayers don't stop progress before it's begun, that is. I'm just plain sick of flat design given I lived through it originally in the 80s-90s and was glad to see it gone in the 2000s only to find out it comes back in 2013, or 2015 if you used Samsung.

Personally, if I wanted to relive the glory days when flat design was the norm (because that's all that those systems could do at the time) I'd buy an Amiga.

So what would u suggest? Stay with skeuomorphic? Get some notebook leather and game centre felt going?

 

[halofan56]

Windows XP.

The exact same criticism was levelled against XP back in the day.

Now it's seen as onr of the best desktop Windows releases ever.

I thought Windows 7 was the second best release, Windows 8 & 10 ruined it.

 

[DesertNomad]

Sheets in Big Sur are a giant step backwards. In earlier versions of macOS, the sheet was attached to the top of the window and now they float in the middle while dimming the parent window. The worst part is that once the sheet is displayed you can no longer drag the parent window like you used to. You can resize it, and effectively drag if you move up while trying to resize the width, but it is still broken.

 

[AAPLGeek]

Sheets in Big Sur are a giant step backwards. In earlier versions of macOS, the sheet was attached to the top of the window and now they float in the middle while dimming the parent window. The worst part is that once the sheet is displayed you can no longer drag the parent window like you used to. You can resize it, and effectively drag if you move up while trying to resize the width, but it is still broken.

I hate it so much.

Unfortunately Apple’s philosophy lately has been trying to fix something that already works great and destroying it in the process.

 

[Ritsuka]

That's not true. The window can still be dragged from the title bar like before when a sheet is shown.

 

[DesertNomad]

That's not true. The window can still be dragged from the title bar like before when a sheet is shown.

That does not work for me on two different system running Big Sur here. You can only drag from the "resize" position at the edge of the window when you move in the direction opposite to resizing. Dimming the parent window is also a step backwards.