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Tozovac

macrumors 68040
Jun 12, 2014
3,034
3,233
how many is 'too many'? the 12 people on this thread? seriously, out of all the macusers who've moved to big sur, how many are stressing the GUI changes? as opposed to how many are fine, and not worried about icon shapes, but focused on their work, email, netflix... life.

12 people, going in an endless circle over the same things. this will not effect any change (but i guess it feels good to have others to commiserate with... and probably annoying that ppl like me keep popping up with a different point-of-view).

so will stop... (maybe) 🤔
Ha ha I’ve said it years ago, it makes me feel better to crow about steps backwards in the interface (and hardware design) by Apple and others, and reading that I’m not alone makes me hopeful that it will eventually filter upwards back to the function-first folk at Apple.

I agree that discussion here specifically may not effect any change but when you read the sentiments of like-minded folk who sometimes link articles that undoubtedly get more visibility than our pi**ing match here in threads like these, it is a good sign. :)
 

Tozovac

macrumors 68040
Jun 12, 2014
3,034
3,233
most people just use their tools, they don't stress the details.

people on forums like this do. and again, you're entitled to your opinion... which is, like all opinions, just your opinion.
Don’t believe for a second there aren’t frustrated users who have no interest (or idea about their existence) in looking up forums like this. They find themselves stuck learning the new routines and then living with them even if they don’t like them compared to a prior, much easier way (in their mind) of doing things. I have many relatives and friends who complain often about certain changes in the iOS or OS that are 1) noticeably different than the prior way of doing so, and 2) noticeably worse or less efficient than the prior way of doing so, and 3) often much less intuitive than the prior way of doing so. My mother got her first iPhone around the time of iOS5 and I don’t recall any calls to help figure out this or that. It wasn’t until iOS7 that the calls and texts started arriving weekly, with frustrated comments of “why did they do this. Why did they do this,” etc. This is a discussion thread about Big Sur, and the simpler/different that Big Sur veers from what was previously established as being rather clean, stable, and intuitive, the more relevant discussions like this are relevant in a thread like this.
 

Bruninho

Suspended
Mar 12, 2021
354
339
Well, Mission accomplished, I guess, But I'm pillar-boxed again, just like Snow Leopard:

View attachment 1748296

View attachment 1748297

View attachment 1748299

Except for the Skeueomorphism, the Mountain Lion version was a major improvement to my eyes. Look at this dock, can't be more gorgeous than that!

My preference for best OS X versions, not in order, is: Panther, Tiger, Snow Leopard and Mountain Lion. Although I must confess that I do miss the Aqua theme from first OS X versions. The brushed metal theme never won me, and that was Steve Jobs idea...
 

fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,251
5,561
ny somewhere
If you remember or look at articles from the time after Apple released iOS 7, there was a pretty big number of people even from major websites like The Verge that critized the design. There were also people like John Gruber that liked it but now they don’t like it. Everyone at that time wanted some sort of a change. Me too but I definitely didn’t want a complete overhaul that destroyed basic Apple’s design guidelines and their magic. If you don’t hear people complaining about it now they just caved to it like many of us. After all, what else can we do if we want to use Apple products.
yes, there are always people who don't like the GUI of an OS. always have been, always will be. meanwhile, the rest of the world just gets on with it; you say they 'caved in', i suggest they're fine with it, or don't care. either way, apple controls mac OS; we just discuss it (or sometimes whine a lot).
 

Tozovac

macrumors 68040
Jun 12, 2014
3,034
3,233
yes, there are always people who don't like the GUI of an OS. always have been, always will be. meanwhile, the rest of the world just gets on with it; you say they 'caved in', i suggest they're fine with it, or don't care. either way, apple controls mac OS; we just discuss it (or sometimes whine a lot).
I tend to read two different types of complaints: Complaints veering more about GUI aesthetics, and complains veering more about GUI function. Even though much of a mouse or touch-driven computer interface’s function is based on appearance/aesthetics, it’s easy to just lump the two together but they are often two entirely different things.

In fact, I wish I had a sense of how many enthusiasts who complained around 2012 over their disdain of green felt, stitched leather, and wood grain aesthetics in the iOS6 interface (rather purely aesthetic complains) then abhorred much of the made-up reworked interface‘s functional interactions...

When someone dismisses that complainers should just move on from what is considered functional steps backwards, then many of us find those responses to be rather short-sighted and not worth much merit.

Myself personally, I never stuttered too much about changes to things like icons, the trash can, the dock, folders colors, etc., even if I didn’t like some of those changes. But that’s just me, and I won’t discount someone who can’t tolerate the new trash can or dock, especially because often the old way was not any less functional than the new way; the new way was just different-looking, whose biggest merit was perhaps keeping Apple’s programmers engaged and Apple’s marketing team happy. I do admit I miss the “lickable” stoplight buttons that were very Apple-esque, and I very much don’t like the Fisher Price My First Computer flat design stoplight buttons that provide no unique differentiation between Apple and that of any preschool craft hour involving hole punches and colored paper.

But for me, I’m terribly aggravated when certain changes more rooted about function (whether driven by aesthetics or not) result in noticeably decreased efficiency, more eye/mental strain etc. Examples of functional step backwards rooted in aesthetics would be much of the wasted space in the menu bar in Big Sur (and how it’s sometimes difficult to quickly differentiate stacked windows when the borders & content are all the same grey-ish color), flat design in general, low-contrast all white/grey interfaces, light grey or light brown text on white, ”text as buttons,” etc. Functional steps backwards not necessarily rooted directly in aesthetics would include requiring 2 or 3 swipes/taps to do what used to take 1, hiding often-used tools under layers of hamburger, ellipse, or gear icons (sometimes requiring trying all 3 to find the damn command/tool), reworking spotlight search to where the window covers up the work area instead of staying contained to the top right corner like before, etc. I can’t say it’s “ok” to just tell someone to bite the bullet and accept the new dock or icons, but when any aesthetic change results in less/harder function than before to where it feels like the interface is getting in the way for many, then it means nothing to just say just accept it. Or, you’re shortchanging yourself in the understanding of others if you don’t recognize to differentiate complaints about GUI aesthetics to complaints over functional steps backwards.
 
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fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,251
5,561
ny somewhere
I tend to read two different types of complaints: Complaints veering more about GUI aesthetics, and complains veering more about GUI function. Even though much of a mouse or touch-driven computer interface’s function is based on appearance/aesthetics, it’s easy to just lump the two together but they are often two entirely different things.

In fact, I wish I had a sense of how many enthusiasts who complained around 2012 over their disdain of green felt, stitched leather, and wood grain aesthetics in the iOS6 interface (rather purely aesthetic complains) then abhorred much of the made-up reworked interface‘s functional interactions...

When someone dismisses that complainers should just move on from what is considered functional steps backwards, then many of us find those responses to be rather short-sighted and not worth much merit.

Myself personally, I never stuttered too much about changes to things like icons, the trash can, the dock, folders colors, etc., even if I didn’t like some of those changes. But that’s just me, and I won’t discount someone who can’t tolerate the new trash can or dock, especially because often the old way was not any less functional than the new way; the new way was just different-looking, whose biggest merit was perhaps keeping Apple’s programmers engaged and Apple’s marketing team happy. I do admit I miss the “lickable” stoplight buttons that were very Apple-esque, and I very much don’t like the Fisher Price My First Computer flat design stoplight buttons that provide no unique differentiation between Apple and that of any preschool craft hour involving hole punches and colored paper.

But for me, I’m terribly aggravated when certain changes more rooted about function (whether driven by aesthetics or not) result in noticeably decreased efficiency, more eye/mental strain etc. Examples of functional step backwards rooted in aesthetics would be much of the wasted space in the menu bar in Big Sur (and how it’s sometimes difficult to quickly differentiate stacked windows when the borders & content are all the same grey-ish color), flat design in general, low-contrast all white/grey interfaces, light grey or light brown text on white, ”text as buttons,” etc. Functional steps backwards not necessarily rooted directly in aesthetics would include requiring 2 or 3 swipes/taps to do what used to take 1, hiding often-used tools under layers of hamburger, ellipse, or gear icons (sometimes requiring trying all 3 to find the damn command/tool), reworking spotlight search to where the window covers up the work area instead of staying contained to the top right corner like before, etc. I can’t say it’s “ok” to just tell someone to bite the bullet and accept the new dock or icons, but when any aesthetic change results in less/harder function than before to where it feels like the interface is getting in the way for many, then it means nothing to just say just accept it. Or, you’re shortchanging yourself in the understanding of others if you don’t recognize to differentiate complaints about GUI aesthetics to complaints over functional steps backwards.
my apologies, i am not going to read all of that; but it certainly suggests over-thinking. and, again, your opinion is your opinion... as is mine, the apple designers who create the GUI, and everyone else in the world.

there is a profound difference between 'fact' and 'opinion'.... but don't tell anyone, it's a vanishing reality...
 

Feyl

Cancelled
Aug 24, 2013
964
1,951
I remember absolutely loving the design changes in iOS 7. It was the first developer beta I rushed to install when it was released. The reason I'm a bit scared about Big Sur is that the design hints that Apple is working on some touch screen device that will run macOS. Much larger buttons, sliders that don't make much sense for just mouse input, etc. I always loved that Apple kept the Mac and iPad lineups separate because it meant that macOS could be built in a way that didn't have to make compromises to accommodate touch input.
I jumped on the iOS 7 bandwagon early too, but after a few betas it gave me a great lesson that new doesn’t always mean better. I actually paid for the developer account to be able to install it. But I just wanted something new to be excited about.

I’m also pretty scared about the touch Macs. I think it’s not a good idea and even Apple themselves gave great reasons why is that. Maybe they’re trying something and apply it later with the iPad experience. I think iPad Pro should get more mature OS with the UI similar to macOS.
 

Tozovac

macrumors 68040
Jun 12, 2014
3,034
3,233
my apologies, i am not going to read all of that; but it certainly suggests over-thinking. and, again, your opinion is your opinion... as is mine, the apple designers who create the GUI, and everyone else in the world.

there is a profound difference between 'fact' and 'opinion'.... but don't tell anyone, it's a vanishing reality...

If they’re profound they should be easy to identify...can you expand some of the differences (examples maybe) between facts and opinions as far as the topic of computer/phone interfaces, and how to apply only facts for some of the discussions in this thread for interface aesthetics & function?
 
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fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,251
5,561
ny somewhere
Not arrogant at all. This a forum where people discuss their opinions. By not reading what someone said and answer anyway proves that you don’t have anything valuable to add to this conversation and you made up your mind a long time ago on the subject.
when posts go on that long, they tend to be self-indulgent, rambling. am not obilgated to work my way thru that... it's my right, as it the poster's to as they see fit.

sorry people don't want a contrary opinion, but big sur looks fine to me, and my macs work. so it goes...
 

fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,251
5,561
ny somewhere
If they’re profound they should be easy to identify...can you expand some of the differences (examples maybe) between facts and opinions as far as the topic of computer/phone interfaces, and how to apply only facts for some of the discussions in this thread for interface aesthetics & function?
"the new GUI is impossible to work with" is an opinion.

"the new GUI has square icons" would be a fact.

a fact is indisuputable ("dark mode has dark windows"); an opinion would be "dark mode is too dark".

it's not complicated. if apple made the OS look as it does, ppl there obviously believe it's a good look. and, no matter what they do, someone will like it, someone else won't.

on forums like this (where nerds and obsessive types like myself live), things get confusing 🤪 . but, as someone pointed out earlier on the thread, at least the conversation is entertaining.
 

CasualFanboy

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2020
382
679
"the new GUI is impossible to work with" is an opinion.

"the new GUI has square icons" would be a fact.

a fact is indisuputable ("dark mode has dark windows"); an opinion would be "dark mode is too dark".

it's not complicated. if apple made the OS look as it does, ppl there obviously believe it's a good look. and, no matter what they do, someone will like it, someone else won't.

on forums like this (where nerds and obsessive types like myself live), things get confusing 🤪 . but, as someone pointed out earlier on the thread, at least the conversation is entertaining.

No one buys a particular type of personal computer, repeatedly, based only on "facts."

Salesman: "Hello, sir. What can I help you with today?"
Customer: "I'm looking for a laptop."
Salesman: "Excellent! What kind of features are important to you?"
Customer: "Well, uh, I want a laptop with a GUI that is possible to work with."

Would anyone buy a mac because of the fact that it has square icons? Or would it be because they like square icons?

Although saying "Big Sur is impossible to work with" is closer to a pure fact than most things these days. :p
 
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fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,251
5,561
ny somewhere
No one buys a particular type of personal computer, repeatedly, based only on "facts."

Salesman: "Hello, sir. What can I help you with today?"
Customer: "I'm looking for a laptop."
Salesman: "Excellent! What kind of features are important to you?"
Customer: "Well, uh, I want a laptop with a GUI that is possible to use."

Would anyone buy a mac because of the fact that it has square icons? Or would it be because they like square icons?

Although saying "Big Sur is impossible to use" is closer to a pure fact than most things these days. :p
the mac doesn't have square icons... the current OS that runs on the mac does. your story makes no sense.

and, as always (since you keep repeating the same thing, i should be able to as well), most macusers on big sur are just using their macs... as always.

but do go on....
 
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CasualFanboy

macrumors 6502
Jun 26, 2020
382
679
the mac doesn't have square icons... the current OS that runs on the mac does. your story makes no sense.
LOL

and, as always (since you keep repeating the same thing, i should be able to as well), most macusers on big sur are just using their macs... as always.

but do go on....
I've told you multiple times, I'm glad you're here, and have never suggested you shouldn't post opinions.
 

drdudj

macrumors regular
Mar 7, 2021
149
131
Oregon
entertaining for sure. star shaped icons reminded me of a 3rd party program i used once with windows but don't remember the name but think it might have been ubuntu? you could have a secret "hidden" spot on your screen and if you clicked on it, what every programs you had coded to be there would then become visible. i wonder how mac users would like their new dock to be like that?
 

fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,251
5,561
ny somewhere
BTW I finally found a version of Firefox for Mountain Lion that can properly view this site! Firefox 30.
Mountain Lion :rolleyes:... 2012 :oops:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

"One should not fear change; when we move forward, we grow"

"If we hung on to the past, we'd still be scraping images onto cave walls"

 Think Different, Really
 

qoop

macrumors 6502
Feb 4, 2021
440
424
THE UNITED KINGDOM
Not arrogant at all. This a forum where people discuss their opinions. By not reading what someone said and answer anyway proves that you don’t have anything valuable to add to this conversation and you made up your mind a long time ago on the subject.
Sorry, I only read 2 words of that, I simply don't have the time. I'm important. :p
 

retta283

Suspended
Jun 8, 2018
3,180
3,482
Mountain Lion :rolleyes:... 2012 :oops:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

"One should not fear change; when we move forward, we grow"

"If we hung on to the past, we'd still be scraping images onto cave walls"

 Think Different, Really
What's the problem with experimenting with an older OS in a VM or even on old hardware? There are literally large portions of this site dedicated to doing such things. It seems like all of your posts in this thread basically mean the same thing just rewritten. This is MacRumors, people are going to "complain" about things they don't like. Whether they are representative of the larger population is in this case mostly irrelevant.
 

fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,251
5,561
ny somewhere
What's the problem with experimenting with an older OS in a VM or even on old hardware? There are literally large portions of this site dedicated to doing such things. It seems like all of your posts in this thread basically mean the same thing just rewritten. This is MacRumors, people are going to "complain" about things they don't like. Whether they are representative of the larger population is in this case mostly irrelevant.
as far as i'm concerned, ppl can do whatever they want. but this is the big sur forum, so how is mountain lion relevant?

and if ppl can endlessly complain about the OS, saying the same thing over & over, can i not also say what i think? (over & over, sigh)...


EDIT: what's funny about all of this, is... this thread will probably still be running when the next OS drops. at least, it will be a chance for ppl to dive into what's ugly about that next OS (& fun to watch those same ppl suddenly long for the 'better icons and menubar spacing" of... big sur). 🤔
 
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Alwis

macrumors 6502
Jan 12, 2017
439
506
I personally have no strong feelings regarding the look of Big Sur, there are some things I liked better in previous versions and some that I like better in Big Sur. I remember the release of Yosemite, my first thought was "how ugly" now looking at Snow Leopard I like the "new" design much more.

Only a very little detail, but once Apple was all into details: The Big Sur desktop wallpaper has a bright white "dot" just beneath the Dock. I first thought, that my display has a defect pixel, but no, its only the wallpaper...

Where I have strong feelings is the functionality and there are some thinks Big Sur really lacks, e.g. when you try to drag a Firefox window with many open tabs, there are no to many places you can grab the window. Or when there are several notifications from the calendar which I try to close with the small "x". Sometimes that is not shown for a short time, so when clicking to fast I open the calendar instead of closing the notification.

Beside that Apple should start fixing bugs, e.g. in iTunes Mail and Photos. Most of these issues have been around since before Big Sur, but that makes it even more annoying.
 
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