Why is Big Sur so ugly?

[vddobrev]

In Mail and Finder, when you hide the mail-box or side bar, the red/yellow/green buttons move from the sidebar to the title bar. To me this is bad design, i.e. the whole appearance of the window changes just by hiding a sidebar.

Yes, the icons in Pages/Numbers are smaller than those in Finder, Safari, etc

 

[Tozovac]

This is by far the biggest problem I have with macOS now. Those shapes are so dim compared to the background as well, no good. Colors gone too for literally no reason. It's trying too hard to be a mix of a Fisher Price toy and iOS 14 as far as I can see.

I definitely do not see how this is progress in any way other than being different for the sake of being different. There was no need to change it anyway, I don't think many people were really waiting for a change from a developed UI that had existed for 6 years, except maybe bloggers that bitch at anything that's older than a certain time frame. Most people weren't eager for a major overhaul, not this change anyway.

In Mail and Finder, when you hide the mail-box or side bar, the red/yellow/green buttons move from the sidebar to the title bar. To me this is bad design, i.e. the whole appearance of the window changes just by hiding a sidebar.

View attachment 1749504

View attachment 1749505

Yes, the icons in Pages/Numbers are smaller than those in Finder, Safari, etc

Exactly and exactly. The inability to quickly (subconsciously) differentiate “info” from “actionable” since both are the same black font and there’s an absence of color differentiation for certain tools increases the “work” it takes to do simple things over and over and over and over and starts to add up.

At one time the icon for Microsoft Outlook was golden, Word was blue, Excel was green. Adobe PDF was red. When my work computer systems went to Windows 10, suddenly the Outlook icon was blue along with Word, and Adobe PDF‘s icon went from red to black&white/flat and with an image/icon that looked almost exactly like that of a jpeg. It cemented how important those color cues are all the dozens of times a day I had to stop & think a bit longer than before before finding the right Outlook or Adobe icon on the toolbar. Similar for Microsoft Office 365, all the side folders are all-text and use the arrowheads to show the existence of sub-folders. Because of arrowhead locations relative to the barely indented sub-files below, I probably mistake a sub-folder for that of a different family of folders 5x a day. Just way too mimimalist/bare, questioning, how is this progress. Same for the iPhone command center pull-down menu...the timer icon looks so similar to the rotation lock icon, the other icons also look so similar...how much quicker the interaction would be if the various icons (camera, calculator, timer/clock) were even just the same (colored) icon as those on the screen. These are all steps backwards for intuitive, quick, almost subconscious “it just works” function, and how is this progress. It’s as if tv producers from the 50’s are running Apple, whose space movies featured people from the future with a flat face, no facial features and wearing grey zip-up onesie jumpsuits.

Who can detail my examples above and turn them around into improvements from prior? This is progress?

 

[Tozovac]

To the above I'll add: It could be that someone like me "moves fast" in their actions & thinking, and notices new delays when using today's flat/monochromatic interfaces vs. interfaces from before iOS7 & Windows 8/metro. It very well could be that others move at a slower speed to where they don't notice the new delays. That is not a statement that I feel I think/work better, but my work patterns result in most definitely noticing a negative functional impact generally from flat/monochromatic/minimalist interfaces. It takes longer and is unnecessarily more frustrating to enact certain repetitive actions even after "learning" the new reinvented way of doing things, and and after discovering/exploring how to do certain functions that used to be right out there in front & obvious.

With screen pixel density and processing power increasing wildly, how can flat/monochromatic/minimalism be considered "progress" functionally? I have yet to read any good, solid rational explanation as to how that helps usage. The only rationale(s) I have read over the years are more about "moving forward" and "not getting stuck in the past," or "no longer needing such cues." Etc. etc. Maybe now that all of us have learned how to work certain vague flat/monochromatic interfaces, we "no longer need" those visual affordances of the past to learn how to work something, but we sure tend to work better and more efficiently with certain visual affordances that are invisible in the world of flat design, monochromatic design, text-for-buttons, etc.

Again, I'd love to read how flat/monochromatic/minimalist interfaces are functionally better, separate from personal preferences (and tolerances). I have yet to read a good justification. Until then, the justifications will solely be for having something new and fresh to look at, regardless of functional improvement or step backwards for many.

 

[CasualFanboy]

It’s as if tv producers from the 50’s are running Apple, whose space movies featured people from the future with a flat face, no facial features and wearing grey zip-up onesie jumpsuits.

It seems as if this attitude has permeated the consciousness of our elite class. They have just decided we need to become more complacent, less intelligent, and .... Stop asking questions! Just consume product and get excited for next product.

 

[Feyl]

Why are the toolbar icons on iWork apps so tiny compared to say Safari?

View attachment 1749494

Maybe because they want them to be harder to use. I don't know. I stoped trying to find any logic in Apple's software a long time ago. So much of it don't make any sense. Their design is just a bunch of different ideas scattered throughout the place.

 

[CasualFanboy]

Again, I'd love to read how flat/monochromatic/minimalist interfaces are functionally better, separate from personal preferences (and tolerances). I have yet to read a good justification. Until then, the justifications will solely be for having something new and fresh to look at, regardless of functional improvement or step backwards for many.

One of the things I've always seen from people trying to sell this as a benefit is that it "minimizes distractions," as if we're all a bunch of zombies who would go into a trance chasing the bright shiny thing.

So I'm still waiting for a good explanation too, because that one just doesn't cut it.

 

[Tozovac]

One of the things I've always seen from people trying to sell this as a benefit is that it "minimizes distractions," as if we're all a bunch of zombies who would go into a trance chasing the bright shiny thing.

So I'm still waiting for a good explanation too, because that one just doesn't cut it.

I most definitely think the user who was perhaps most distracted to the point of disgust at times was Jony Ive. And he was given all the power required to change things to his preferred way after Steve & Scott. Over the past 5 years I have tried to find it online but can't...I recall reading an interview of Jony regarding all the skeuomorphic affordances in iOS (and maybe even OS X) around the timeframe of either iOS6 or Scott's departure where Jony was quoted as very definitively scoffing that he was most definitely not the one who drove adding such detail to the interface, etc. I recall laughing at the article at what sounded like a petulant, selfish, closed-minded non-team-playing child. Wish I could find that article. Maybe it was exorcised from the interwebs just like the Jony Ive Soundboard.

Jony Ive soundboard 'personally offended' Apple's design guru

With his soothing British accent, love of flowery design terms, and immediately recognizable pronunciation of "aluminium," few people in tech are as

www.cultofmac.com

 

[CasualFanboy]

LOL I can't even imagine what my response would be if Apple's legal team called me to complain about their hurt feelings. Other than laughter.

 

[CasualFanboy]

In Mail and Finder, when you hide the mail-box or side bar, the red/yellow/green buttons move from the sidebar to the title bar. To me this is bad design, i.e. the whole appearance of the window changes just by hiding a sidebar.

That is incredible, I didn't even know that.

If I had to pick just one thing that is the most visually annoying, it would probably be the removal of titlebars. This makes it even worse.

And that's the thing with Big Sur that really worries me.... people say it will grow on you, but for me it's just the opposite. The more I look at it, and the more things I hear (like this), I dislike it even more.

 

[retta283]

I'd have to agree the more I look at it the less I like it. Especially when going back to an older Apple OS, it's such a sight for sore eyes to see such a well-crafted easy to navigate UI/UX. Then the return to Big Sur is difficult because I lose the appreciated outlines of buttons and clickable area in titlebars, etc. It is also horribly inconsistent as seen with the comparison of Safari and iWork apps.

It's almost as if they wanted to redesign it without putting in the effort to actually make a competent new design. Let's make the menubar illegible on high DPI monitors and blow up the size of other elements while also removing the detail that made those elements easy to navigate in the first place. Backwards design.

 

[Bruninho]

In Mail and Finder, when you hide the mail-box or side bar, the red/yellow/green buttons move from the sidebar to the title bar. To me this is bad design, i.e. the whole appearance of the window changes just by hiding a sidebar.

View attachment 1749504

View attachment 1749505

Yes, the icons in Pages/Numbers are smaller than those in Finder, Safari, etc

I see nothing wrong here...

 

[Tozovac]

One of the things I've always seen from people trying to sell this as a benefit is that it "minimizes distractions," as if we're all a bunch of zombies who would go into a trance chasing the bright shiny thing.

So I'm still waiting for a good explanation too, because that one just doesn't cut it.

Another gem of an interface "improvement" is transparency of titlebars that I think started with Windows 7.

Talk about distracting the user...

While many of us are fighting to recognize & differentiate the flat-design monochromatic titlebars/borders (or non-existent borders) amongst other nearby or overlapping windows, how possibly could making a titlebar/border blend in with the surrounding background have been considered a good idea? A different/new idea yes, but good?

There's good reason the world has not moved to translucent/tracing paper in books and on our desks.

 

[retta283]

Another gem of an interface "improvement" is transparency of titlebars that I think started with Windows 7.

Talk about distracting the user...

While many of us are fighting to recognize & differentiate the flat-design monochromatic titlebars/borders (or non-existent borders) amongst other nearby or overlapping windows, how possibly could making a titlebar/border blend in with the surrounding background have been considered a good idea? A different/new idea yes, but good?

There's good reason the world has not moved to translucent/tracing paper in books and on our desks.

This was VIsta's invention on the Windows side. OS X had this before 10.3 in certain apps as well, transparency combined with pinstripes that is. There was also the transparent menubar in 10.5-10.9, which in early versions of 10.5 was very intense, then made more subdued in I think 10.5.2?

 

[Tozovac]

This was VIsta's invention on the Windows side. OS X had this before 10.3 in certain apps as well, transparency combined with pinstripes that is. There was also the transparent menubar in 10.5-10.9, which in early versions of 10.5 was very intense, then made more subdued in I think 10.5.2?

Thanks. I never used Vista. Having moved to Macs for personal use in 2005, my work computer lept from Windows XP to 7 then to 10. Never used Vista. I hated Windows 7's transparent default settings and just used the Windows XP skin/environment, there was no need to move to something different at work and only slowed my workflow adjusting to Windows 7 at the time.

 

[tomtad]

View attachment 1749365 Just a few months back macOS had actually some color and buttons. Honestly, this is how the progress looks like? That pic from Big Sur looks like an inactive window. And those arrows on media, view and insert buttons are actually giving you a hint that you can do more with that button. I like that. Why those arrows are not there in Big Sur but it's only on the zoom button? There's not even a consistency in this flat mess.

Agree with this. The iWork apps are usually some of Apple's best designed apps (looking at you Music) but they've missed the mark with the Big Sur redesign. The icons need to be bumped up in size to match those found elsewhere in the OS which is a simple fix. I'd also advocate for a bit of colour.

As you say the previous toolbar design is much clearer and simply looks better.

 

[Bruninho]

OK, I am starting to think that this is just a knee-jerk reaction to many of the Big Sur changes.

These changes aren't even definitive, in previous transitions Apple tends to experiment with it before settling for a design. Like every first version/iteration of a design, they are prone and bound to have changes in upcoming OS versions. Give time to them.

I personally have ZERO issue with the Big Sur UI changes. In fact, I like them, and that is my professional opinion. There is very little details about their UI/UX changes to complain about:

- 2D Dock, I understand they wanted parity with iOS, although I think that it should've been the other way around and keep the 3D Dock (subjective opinion, but they should at least give that option to the user);
- Transparent menubar changing according to the wallpaper (again subjective opinion, but again at least should've given to the users the option to choose between no transparency, transparency and the dark/white modes no matter which was the wallpaper);
- The system security is blocking me from changing the /Apps and /Users/Bruno/Documents folders icon for no apparent reason. Before Catalina I could do that;

Other than that, I have nothing to complain about Big Sur design. Look at Ubuntu "Hirsute Hippo" Gnome, they're doing pretty much the same design. Many linux distros are following the exact same design, not just Apple. Recently, Microsoft with their evolution of Metro (called Fluid design now) has some pretty nice icons and is adopting a flat, but fluid design variation too. I am pretty comfortable in all three UI/UX experiences, although I do not like Windows 10 at all for its surprise auto-update moments and data collection/telemetry data being sent to M$.

Regarding menu transparency, toolbars, window titlebars, buttons, I have absolutely zero complaints. You're just knee-jerk reacting to these changes with subjective opinion not based on facts, like other user suggested before. You don't like it, you made it very clear. You prefer the things how they were before - I understand your reaction, my dad has the exact same reaction. But instead of bitching about, what is he doing? trying to adapt to the changes, while considering a move back to Windows or a move to Linux.

There's nothing you can do about except downgrade to Catalina or any other older version. You should be thankful that you have choice - You can stay on it and adapt, you can downgrade, move to Linux and customize it your way (considering how much you're bitching about the design, this is probably your best choice) or move back to CRAPindows 10, since older CRAPindows are now pretty much EOL and officially not supported.

Move along with the times, dude. Yes, flat design has had its heyday, and I am pretty sure you will bitch much more if Apple decides to adopt the neuomorphism. God forbids them, I hate this new weird web design trend and prefer Metro/Flat designs because I am a minimalist professional UI/UX Designer and this style is what my clients ask for on their projects.

Bitching about the traffic siginal buttons or window titlebars design 24/7 is not going to change anything for you. Do something about it instead. That is my advice to you.

 

[colourfastt]

Agree with this. The iWork apps are usually some of Apple's best designed apps (looking at you Music) but they've missed the mark with the Big Sur redesign. The icons need to be bumped up in size to match those found elsewhere in the OS which is a simple fix. I'd also advocate for a bit of colour.

In Apple world that's nigh on to heresy.

 

[fisherking]

In Apple world that's nigh on to heresy.

have you not seen the login screen?...

 

[allan.nyholm]

TL-DR
Live life 3-6-5! and get theming before your children or parents

Or don't


I'm only going to add my view on this.. there might be more comments down the line about this subject or there might not.

It's an OK debate to have; why Big Sur is ugly. My take is that there can never be a truce with regards to how and what an UI and UX should look and behave like.

I realize that I am in the hands of Apple and the choices their research and security team does.
Admittedly I'm often perplexed as to how Apple came to the conclusion that so much white-space on the Finder toolbar and the color white is a re-vamp.

I'm a bit confused about System Preferences too. I think it's too crowded there by default and not enough separation and sense in what belongs together. Wasn't there at one point on earlier OS X version a small text that told what is what; i.e security, appearance. Anyway - I'm no expert. My opinions stem from the 13 years of using macOS and their ancestors. I got on with a Lombard(had a another name too I think - Piston or something?!) Mac laptop that had would eventually be upgraded to I think 10.2.8. Fun times.

From that perspective of having gone through all these iterations of macOS and even their naming of macOS - Mac OS X to OS X and now macOS - I get the majority of people voicing their opinion of a forum that still allows opinions to be voiced. This topic isn't the most controversial of topics. It's a topic that's been around for decades on all the platforms I have been in contact with.

Magic Workbench on the Amiga - people loved it or hated it with a passion. Then came some perspective icons for Amiga OS - those were equally not everyone's cup of tea.
There was and still is a theming engine for Amiga OS - believe or not. That was fun too.

Linux users is in all types of conflicts with themselves and other users and don't miss an opportunity to lay down the law on KDE vs GNOME and how one is much better than the other.

Windows 10 - phew, that's apparent I think. Metro/Modern UI - white-space en-masse - squared cornered windows and too many odd design choices with icons dating back to the Stone ages or Windows 98 at least.

The thing about me doing bits and pieces to macOS' interface is no more than a hobby - edit.. I take that back: It's a way of life. A way to keep myself occupied during the day. I have all the waking hours to myself. No wife, girlfriend, children or pets to take care of and no immediate family to tend to as they live their own life and enjoy not having to be interupted by me.
Some would say I am blessed that way. I don't see it like that all the time. I survive on having a good time.

So, I wake up before I go to sleep and make icons and other graphics that I feel is right in appearance for me.

I've used my available fingers to count the number of active macOS users who use my themes and take active part in suggesting and participating in making theme suites for macOS that require SIP to be off and can be applied to the system.

That number? It's 7 (seven) or 8 (eight)

SIP to be off is a big hindrance for all new Mac users (since it's on by default on a new Mac purchase) and for current users that wants stability and peace of mind. Stability is to be debated - peace of mind is very subjective.
Stability is of course subjective too - I just don't think that SystemIntegrityProtection should be what it comes down to if all the issues a Big Sur user has is the appearance of the theme.

I am happy to help, and I have. Not everyone decides the help is adequate because they want all the things done like ordering a pizza.
And that also is another issue.. what I like and see as possible for me to spend time on is very different than anyone else.

Apple does its best to stop us all from doing anything that could see a harming the user's experience so that Apple Support suddenly gets 1200 calls about something called SIP and how it's to be off because of some dude acting like a cool dude decides to stuff a new set of traffic light | titlebar control buttons and stuff down their throat. I can see how Apple would like to eliminate those frantic calls at all cost.

Does anyone remember the Application Enhancer Framework.. I keep telling people that there was a story that The Genius' bar at the time once had one customer come in and explain a boot issue - to which the "genius" at the Apple Store was acting all like "hey, you dumb or something - that APE framework is what is causing your OS X Tiger update to go bad"
That story might be paraphrased a whole lot. In all honesty, I'm certain I've read a story similar to that.

If you want to do something about the theme on Big Sur then there's no two ways about it. It's time to get started and rise...riiiiiseeeeee my fellow themers and get on the MacEnhance Discord server and get an early download of IconChamp - works wonders. PS look in the Pinned Messages too for details on what's new and more

 

[Tozovac]

Move along with the times, dude. Yes, flat design has had its heyday, and I am pretty sure you will bitch much more if Apple decides to adopt the neuomorphism. God forbids them, I hate this new weird web design trend and prefer Metro/Flat designs because I am a minimalist professional UI/UX Designer and this style is what my clients ask for on their projects.

Bitching about the traffic siginal buttons or window titlebars design 24/7 is not going to change anything for you. Do something about it instead. That is my advice to you.

Good advice, I'll do something about it then instead of conversing opinions of like-minded folk in a forum. I'll log into my Apple work email account and relay to Tim that we should have a meeting to start working on what should be done, to meet my needs.

I aways get a kick out of advice to just accept and adapt. "Instead of liking what you like, you should like what's provided to you, because it reflects what others like. What they like should be what you like, and what you like doesn't matter. I like that.

PS neumorphism to me is mostly great so far, as it's the (slow but steady) return to non-flat interfaces with intuitive cues. Buttons/sliders/tools that easily differentiate themselvesf from any nearby info-only text...layouts that more intuitively attract the user's attention/focus to quickly recognize content vs. controls rather than blend the two together. In other words, it's the return towards skeuomorphism but just without green felt, stitched leather, and woodgrain. It's a snowflake-friendly new word in place of Skeuomorphism that the minimalist flat design disciples can use to save face and not utter the dreaded S-word.

Neumorphism: The art of shadow and light

What does neumorphism look like in UI design and what can it do for your product? We've got the full run-through for you on this new trend!

www.justinmind.com

The only thing I don't like in neumorpism is any clinging to monochromatic themes too heavy-handedly, along with barely-discernible differences in coloring to segregate various commands/tools and urges to hide basic tools off-screen just for sake of a minimalist presentation. The calculator example in that article makes a joke out of the flat & neumorphic examples, in (dare I say it) my opinion: the flat design interface in the middle at least retained colors to differentiate the family of tools although it exorcised the memory buttons, maybe for that so-called clean, undistracting interface appearance. Then the neumorphic example grants back "buttons" to help differentiate tools vs. info/readout but used the jokingly similar color hues with razor-thin font to where the colors are pretty much useless, and the light grey AC, +/-, and % buttons at first look unusable/unselectable since they're greyed-out.

In the neumorphic calculator example, there very obviously is a return to "button shapes" along with an amazingly strong clinging to white-out monochromatic design with barely-discernible color cues. What's really being gained with that design on the right and can be called "better" than the design on the left, other than to say the design on the right would be a lot more attractive to one with a minimalist taste? I'd sure like to know.

Although I can't do anything directly about overly-minimal fashion-first-function-second design, at least others are slowly doing something about it.

 

[retta283]

The only reason for me to get annoyed at UI/UX changes is whenever there is no option to mitigate or customize it. If I could get a higher contrast version of Big Sur that actually added outlines to clickable areas and also let me change the icons to my own I would mostly accept it and deal with it. But this is not included with the OS. Back in the day I could change everything in the rsrc and artfiles to what I wanted and completely change the system UI. Have SIP, whatever, but let me turn that off and change whatever I want. If I'm doing that I don't care if I completely destroy the operating system and all my files, it's my choice and I'll face the consequences. But no, even power users and the most proficient need their hands held when they've entered into the Garden of Apple. It's not the operating system for everyone anymore.

Bitching about the traffic siginal buttons or window titlebars design 24/7 is not going to change anything for you. Do something about it instead. That is my advice to you.

What are we to do about it, exactly? Apple is unlikely to make sweeping UI changes, especially not one release in. These aren't minor elements in the scheme of the UI they've created. We can't customize it ourselves either. The wind of the industry will blow in whatever direction is does and oftentimes we don't have a say in that. Unless you're proposing I should try to get rehired at Microsoft so I can go bust heads over the UI and force them to change it to something I like...

This is MacRumors Forums. People bitch about just about everything under the Sun here and always have, and always will. I never understood comments like this because it's just the nature of the site and of the internet for it to be this way. Reddit is filled with it. Twitter is filled with it. Other forums are filled with it. It's just the nature of these mediums that generates this, and it's much easier to complain here than to actually get feedback by complaining to the company. This is starting to remind me of 2012 events and the point of diminishing returns is creeping upon me again.

 

[Tozovac]

It's just the nature of these mediums that generates this, and it's much easier to complain here than to actually get feedback by complaining to the company. This is starting to remind me of 2012 events and the point of diminishing returns is creeping upon me again.

Although I find quite a bit of "soft" benefit from reading the moanings of like-minded users regarding the weaknesses of much of Apple's current mobile/desktop interfaces, I find big benefit when someone shares an article from a high-visibility site or source that's very likely reaching at least SOME eyes at AAPL.

Speaking of minimalist silliness, meanwhile I'm now called into a meeting where a project manager is bitching up a storm because his minimalist microsoft surface device has too few ports to easily connect a projector, mouse, and charging cable. Because not everyone carries dongles and hubs in their pocket 24/7 to supplement their minimalist fashion statement device when need arises. That's another conversation about the downside of extreme minimalism for another thread, for another day.

 

[Bruninho]

@Tozovac: You clearly did not understand my advice. I told you that you have CHOICE, you can do whatever you want instead of complaining 24/7: get used to it, downgrade, get another operating system you like. These are actions you can take.

As for neumorphism and skeuomorphism, both are complete garbage, period. I will never want to do that kind of design (neumorphism), end period. I do not want to use shadows and neither 3D effects to determine areas of a button or whatever it could be. Use visible lines or a flat background for that, but never embossed buttons or shadows under objects.

The flat design is the most clear to understand, minimalist, and the most direct ever. "Less is more".

@retta283: "What are we to do about it, exactly?" Like I said to Tozovac above, you have choices. You both did not understand:

Option 1: Get used to what Big Sur is now and go on with it.
Option 2: Downgrade to Catalina, Mojave, El Capitan, whatever you like.
Option 3: Move to Windows.
Option 4: Move to a linux distro like Ubuntu, if you really want to do heavy customization, that's what linux is for.
Bonus option: Try and mess with the OS to find a way to change it the way you want. There are plenty of people here on MacRumors that have been doing UI customization to many OS X versions and linux PPC distros (to keep PowerPC Macs alive). In most cases, I always choose that option.

Choose one route and go. Make something. Act. Don't just moan about it everyday.

"People bitch just about everything ... always have, and always will."
Nope, I don't remember the internet being so toxic and full of moaners before. That trend started with the younger people of the current generation that likes to complain about everything on twitter, but don't really want to do something about it.

I've deleted my Facebook account for the very same reason. Instagram is next.

 

[retta283]

@retta283: "What are we to do about it, exactly?" Like I said to Tozovac above, you have choices. You both did not understand:

Option 1: Get used to what Big Sur is now and go on with it.
Option 2: Downgrade to Catalina, Mojave, El Capitan, whatever you like.
Option 3: Move to Windows.
Option 4: Move to a linux distro like Ubuntu, if you really want to do heavy customization, that's what linux is for.
Bonus option: Try and mess with the OS to find a way to change it the way you want. There are plenty of peole here on MacRumors that have been doing UI customization to many OS X versions and linux PPC distros (to keep PowerPC Macs alive).

Choose one route and go. Make something. Act. Don't just moan about it everyday.

"People bitch just about everything ... always have, and always will."
Nope, I don't remember the internet being so toxic and full of moaners before. That trend started with the younger people of the current generation that likes to complain about everything on twitter, but don't really want to do something about it.

I've deleted my Facebook account for the very same reason. Instagram is next.

I've already made my choice on this which is to move to a mixed ecosystem experience and all is well and good with that. It does not forbid me from responding to the sentiments of others with my own thoughts on something that I do not like. Perhaps it is a sign that I have more free time that I am more willing to do so than before, but still I am within my right to do so. It's the topic of the thread. It's not as if I, or some other people here, are going into every Mac thread or Big Sur thread and trashing on the OS. It's a discussion. You can choose to partake in that or not but you must expect different opinions and the fact that some will repeat those opinions or continue to expound upon them...

It has always been this way. It is much worse now than it was 15-20 years ago by every possible measurement but it has always been there. Even before forums were really a thing I was in a number of Usenet groups where I saw similar complaining going in circles about the most mundane of topics. People I knew in CS 20 years ago fought over which maps were in rotation and there were literally server raids and mass bans over this. MacRumors has always had elements of this as well. I recall many threads bashing the iMac G5 design, the MacBook Pro name, MacBook screen quality, iPhone not having 3G, iMac TN screen controversy, iPod nano colors, no cameras on iPod touch 3rd generation, iPad, OS X Lion, lack of design changes in iOS 6, iPad mini not having a retina screen, iPad mini getting a retina screen but with poor color gamut, bend threads, OS X Yosemite redesign (bingo), iOS 7 redesign, butterfly keyboards, and on and on and on.

I agree and concede fully that the internet, and I think as a mirror of the world, has become a much more toxic place full of hate but these elements are persistent. Social media is just a space for the biggest of bitching to be unleashed because you can complain about literally the whole world within one thread of post and do so every day about the next stupid thing someone says or does or something that is happening across the world or a century past. The introduction of it has crept into here definitely at least since the iPhone came out, and it has changed aspects of the discussion, but the iPhone came out 14 years ago. It's been like this for a long time.

 

[Tozovac]

@Tozovac: You clearly did not understand my advice. I told you that you have CHOICE, you can do whatever you want instead of complaining 24/7: get used to it, downgrade, get another operating system you like. These are actions you can take.

As for neumorphism and skeuomorphism, both are complete garbage, period. I will never want to do that kind of design (neumorphism), end period. I do not want to use shadows and neither 3D effects to determine areas of a button or whatever it could be. Use visible lines or a flat background for that, but never embossed buttons or shadows under objects.

The flat design is the most clear to understand, minimalist, and the most direct ever. "Less is more".

Hoo boy, very interesting. Suggesting that one revert back to an old Mac OS (security and/or access to updated software or hardware be damned) or step away to a different operating system entirely (frying pan into the fire, as far as flat/unintuitive design is concerned) additionally suggests you simply don't understand the value of Function first. That you'd rather someone adjust their hardware suggests that you think they value aesthetics first and foremost over any lost function.

If you don't like shadows/cues/borders/buttons/shadows/3D effect cues, then I assume you've ripped up any hardwood flooring or tiling at home and replaced it with seamless white epoxy? All photos on the walls no longer have any nice framing/matting? Your wall light switches are removed and hidden in the wall, and you just use Alexa to turn lights on/off? Kitchen cupboards have no knobs/handles? Toilet has no seat or cover? White clothes, white furniture, white bedding, white floors, walls, etc. After all, less is more. If we don't need intuitive cues on the screens why do we need them in real life.

That last sentence, lol. "Most clear to understand." Now there's an opinion.