Why is Big Sur so ugly?

[dblissmn]

It's as though they took their biggest inspiration from Microsoft. If I wanted microscopic fonts, weird excesses of white space, and toolbar camouflage, I'd have switched some time ago. I'd like Apple to look like Apple, not a hybrid of OS X and Windows. Well, let's just hope they don't go the rest of the way....and that sooner rather than later they either slightly enlarge the fonts at the expense of this useless excess of white space, or else introduce scalable fonts.

I can see only one gain from Big Sur in terms of its appearance -- camouflaging the toolbar by having it just sit on the desktop background probably reduces the risk of burn-in on monitors.

 

[Bruninho]

LMAO. I give up. You both can keep moaning as much as you want. It won't give you what you really want from that. It's hilarious to see people thinking that throwing the toys out of the pram will actually help them to get whatever they want... "I dont want flat design" "I want the stitched Notes app design back". LMAO.

I actually do understand function first over form, that's why I despise Jony Ive, and that's why I like Flat design; It is exactly Function OVER Form. Period.

Doesn't change the fact that neumorphism and skeuomorphism are complete garbage. And it's even more ridiculous to compare real life stuff with an operating system design....

Just FYI, yes, I have Alexa and she does turn off my lights... get out of your Apple only life and embrace other technologies/operating systems as well, not just Apple =)

 

[dblissmn]

OK, I am starting to think that this is just a knee-jerk reaction to many of the Big Sur changes.

These changes aren't even definitive, in previous transitions Apple tends to experiment with it before settling for a design. Like every first version/iteration of a design, they are prone and bound to have changes in upcoming OS versions. Give time to them.

I personally have ZERO issue with the Big Sur UI changes. In fact, I like them, and that is my professional opinion. There is very little details about their UI/UX changes to complain about:

- 2D Dock, I understand they wanted parity with iOS, although I think that it should've been the other way around and keep the 3D Dock (subjective opinion, but they should at least give that option to the user);
- Transparent menubar changing according to the wallpaper (again subjective opinion, but again at least should've given to the users the option to choose between no transparency, transparency and the dark/white modes no matter which was the wallpaper);
- The system security is blocking me from changing the /Apps and /Users/Bruno/Documents folders icon for no apparent reason. Before Catalina I could do that;

Other than that, I have nothing to complain about Big Sur design. Look at Ubuntu "Hirsute Hippo" Gnome, they're doing pretty much the same design. Many linux distros are following the exact same design, not just Apple. Recently, Microsoft with their evolution of Metro (called Fluid design now) has some pretty nice icons and is adopting a flat, but fluid design variation too. I am pretty comfortable in all three UI/UX experiences, although I do not like Windows 10 at all for its surprise auto-update moments and data collection/telemetry data being sent to M$.

Regarding menu transparency, toolbars, window titlebars, buttons, I have absolutely zero complaints. You're just knee-jerk reacting to these changes with subjective opinion not based on facts, like other user suggested before. You don't like it, you made it very clear. You prefer the things how they were before - I understand your reaction, my dad has the exact same reaction. But instead of bitching about, what is he doing? trying to adapt to the changes, while considering a move back to Windows or a move to Linux.

There's nothing you can do about except downgrade to Catalina or any other older version. You should be thankful that you have choice - You can stay on it and adapt, you can downgrade, move to Linux and customize it your way (considering how much you're bitching about the design, this is probably your best choice) or move back to CRAPindows 10, since older CRAPindows are now pretty much EOL and officially not supported.

Move along with the times, dude. Yes, flat design has had its heyday, and I am pretty sure you will bitch much more if Apple decides to adopt the neuomorphism. God forbids them, I hate this new weird web design trend and prefer Metro/Flat designs because I am a minimalist professional UI/UX Designer and this style is what my clients ask for on their projects.

Bitching about the traffic siginal buttons or window titlebars design 24/7 is not going to change anything for you. Do something about it instead. That is my advice to you.

The dock and the notifications and other graphical elements aren't an issue for me....this is just designers jerking off for the sake of it, but really not impairing the functionality of the computers, and for some mobile device users who want everything to feel seamless from their pocket to the desktop, perhaps even making using the computer feel better for them. Accordingly, some will like it looking more like iOS; others probably won't see it as being here or there; people who are offended by it will quickly get used to it.

The problem I have is the typography and white space. Put simply the new typography is too small, and there's too much leading and too much white space. These things are all related; it's a conscious design choice. A consciously stupid design choice. A design choice that harms legibility. Still we'll mostly put up with it because Windows is even worse in this regard but the last thing we needed was for the OS to look more like Windows in any way, and here a crucial disadvantage of Windows has started to creep into the Mac desktop through the back door.

 

[fisherking]

Hoo boy, very interesting. Suggesting that one revert back to an old Mac OS (security and/or access to updated software or hardware be damned) or step away to a different operating system entirely (frying pan into the fire, as far as flat/unintuitive design is concerned) additionally suggests you simply don't understand the value of Function first. That you'd rather someone adjust their hardware suggests that you think they value aesthetics first and foremost over any lost function.

If you don't like shadows/cues/borders/buttons/shadows/3D effect cues, then I assume you've ripped up any hardwood flooring or tiling at home and replaced it with seamless white epoxy? All photos on the walls no longer have any nice framing/matting? Your wall light switches are removed and hidden in the wall, and you just use Alexa to turn lights on/off? Kitchen cupboards have no knobs/handles? Toilet has no seat or cover? White clothes, white furniture, white bedding, white floors, walls, etc. After all, less is more. If we don't need intuitive cues on the screens why do we need them in real life.

That last sentence, lol. "Most clear to understand." Now there's an opinion.

having an opinion on the GUI of a mac OS, does not mean that aesthetic has to carry over to the real (3D) world, that makes no sense. you can have a flat-screen tv, and a 3D car. you can like jackson pollack's art yet enjoy plain white walls in your living room.

"you don't like the green shirts? so why is your lawn green?".. 🤣

comparisions should be about comparable things.

if you value 'Function first', you can learn to live with a GUI that does not aesthetically thrill you. what surprises me are the people who put aesthetics first, so will run an old OS because they prefer the icons, windows, etc.

 

[retta283]

Not even responding to points and just throwing a lmao? So much for defending forum etiquette if there ever was such a thing. You criticize us for opinions then throw your own onto the ground and stomp them in an attempt to make them fact? The point of diminishing returns has been crossed and apparently it's too late to return from it. I enjoyed my second stint on MacRumors.

 

[fisherking]

Not even responding to points and just throwing a lmao? So much for defending forum etiquette if there ever was such a thing. You criticize us for opinions then throw your own onto the ground and stomp them in an attempt to make them fact? The point of diminishing returns has been crossed and apparently it's too late to return from it. I enjoyed my second stint on MacRumors.

is this for me? just checking (as it followed my post). but doesn't seem to be, as i made my point and also included an lmao (and not just an lmao)...

 

[retta283]

is this for me? just checking (as it followed my post). but doesn't seem to be, as i made my point and also included an lmao (and not just an lmao)...

No, I wrote that before I saw yours appear. Your use of it was part of the point you were making and I don't consider the laugh face to be the same as all-caps LMAO, in my opinion anyway

 

[Tozovac]

LMAO. I give up. You both can keep moaning as much as you want. It won't give you what you really want from that. It's hilarious to see people thinking that throwing the toys out of the pram will actually help them to get whatever they want... "I dont want flat design" "I want the stitched Notes app design back". LMAO.

I actually do understand function first over form, that's why I despise Jony Ive, and that's why I like Flat design; It is exactly Function OVER Form. Period.

Doesn't change the fact that neumorphism and skeuomorphism are complete garbage. And it's even more ridiculous to compare real life stuff with an operating system design....

Just FYI, yes, I have Alexa and she does turn off my lights... get out of your Apple only life and embrace other technologies/operating systems as well, not just Apple =)

Ha ha, yeah I'm tired of EVERYONE specifically asking for the return of the stitched Notes app. I've read that in about every other post in this thread and boy am I tired of that.

Flat design is function over form? Flat & skeu/neu are most definitely both forms that enable access to functions, and each is on a different end of the range of design detail. I have yet to read or hear someone say skeuomorphism/neumorphism is vague and uncertain if not downright confusing at times as far as accessing the underlying function. By that definition alone, strict adherence to flat design which can fail the test of intuitive, clear understanding at times, is very clearly Form first Function second. Note that we're discussing function at the heart of it all, and not effort to create. Sure it takes more effort and talent to create detailed skeu/neu, but that does not mean that the form is being prioritized first. Rather, the goal of quick, intuitive function is prioritized first. Think about it.

It's not at all ridiculous to compare real life to an operating system...at one time operating systems (say iOS6) mimic'd real life to a heavy degree, right? If today's flat minimalist monochromatic operating systems are so ideal, why not then start changing real life to match it? Why not?

Nice assumptions. We have Alexa listening in to my family, lights by LIFX, aNest thermostat, WYZE cameras, etc. etc. etc.

 

[fisherking]

No, I wrote that before I saw yours appear. Your use of it was part of the point you were making and I don't consider the laugh face to be the same as all-caps LMAO, in my opinion anyway

ah, got it!

 

[fisherking]

It's not at all ridiculous to compare real life to an operating system...at one time operating systems (say iOS6) mimic'd real life to a heavy degree, right? If today's flat minimalist monochromatic operating systems are so ideal, why not then start changing real life to match it? Why not?

what does what you see on your mac's flat screen have to do with toilet seats or wall switches? we expect things in the real world to have depth & shape; we expect our physical computers to be '3D'; our mice, keyboards. desks.

what happens on our mac screens is all illusion, there is no real depth. how GUI designers deal with that is up to them (especially with a surprisingly rigid-thinking corporation like apple).

 

[Tozovac]

what does what you see on your mac's flat screen have to do with toilet seats or wall switches? we expect things in the real world to have depth & shape; we expect our physical computers to be '3D'; our mice, keyboards. desks.

what happens on our mac screens is all illusion, there is no real depth. how GUI designers deal with that is up to them (especially with a surprisingly-rigid thinking corporation like apple).

Are you really comparing a flat screen in any way with flat design? How about: that flat screen on your phone or computer can show either flat design or crazily over-skeuomorphic detailed design?

If we "expect" things in the real world to have depth and shape, then what's wrong with that same expectation for certain details within the computer interface? Especially with the annual improvements in pixel density, etc. I think the answer is, there's nothing wrong or detrimental to a classy skeu/neu type interface, except to those who love/appreciate truly flat/minimalist design who just prefer the flattest/most basic interface possible.

Heck, by your and @dblissmn 's standards, why do we have virtual reality on our computers, which create depth and an illusion of "real life?" Why aren't television shows/movies rendered to flat design, for the most direct, basic experience possible. The problem with much of Big Sur and much of flat/monochromatic/minimalist design is that it's just too far to the left or right, a little too extreme away from "natural," and there's no better example of natural than "real life."

 

[fisherking]

Are you really comparing a flat screen in any way with flat design? How about: that flat screen on your phone or computer can show either flat design or crazily over-skeuomorphic detailed design?

If we "expect" things in the real world to have depth and shape, then what's wrong with that same expectation for certain details within the computer interface? Especially with the annual improvements in pixel density, etc. I think the answer is, there's nothing wrong or detrimental to a classy skeu/neu type interface, except to those who love/appreciate truly flat/minimalist design who just prefer the flattest/most basic interface possible.

Heck, by your and @dblissmn 's standards, why do we have virtual reality on our computers, which create depth and an illusion of "real life?" Why aren't television shows/movies rendered to flat design, for the most direct, basic experience possible. The problem with much of Big Sur and much of flat/monochromatic/minimalist design is that it's just too far to the left or right, a little too extreme away from "natural," and there's no better example of natural than "real life."

honestly, i don't get your point at all. there's nothing wrong with wanting '3D' design on a GUI; but what you'd like to see, and what apple provides, are (obviously) very different things.

and i don't see what 'natural' has to do with any of this; why should your mac be expected to mimic qualities in the 'natural' world? a computer is, naturally, nothing more or less that exactly what it is.

 

[Feyl]

and i don't see what 'natural' has to do with any of this; why should your mac be expected to mimic qualities in the 'natural' world? a computer is, naturally, nothing more or less that exactly what it is.

Well, the working environment is pretty important for me and that extends to my computer too. People feel best when they're not completely disconnected from the nature. Why should it be different with computers? It should be a good thing. It was actually why Apple was so different from the completely utilitarian Microsoft. I'd rather work with something that is warm and fun, than something that is cold and boring.

 

[Tozovac]

honestly, i don't get your point at all. there's nothing wrong with wanting '3D' design on a GUI; but what you'd like to see, and what apple provides, are (obviously) very different things.

and i don't see what 'natural' has to do with any of this; why should your mac be expected to mimic qualities in the 'natural' world? a computer is, naturally, nothing more or less that exactly what it is.

To me, "real life" has a sense of order and organization provided by things like attractive address numbers on houses, classy fences between yards, clean stripes on the road, clearly-understood light switches on the wall that are simple yet obvious to the point that you could operate them only by feel and you can instantly know their state of up/down visually. By your logic, there'd be nothing wrong with reverting back to a computer/screen presentation like this, eh? Pretty darn minimalist, no unnecessary sense of order. I'd think @dblissmn would approve. The cost for strong processors & screens, and the related power savings from reducing screen resolution would be a nice thing too.

With some of Big Sur's monochromatic interfaces (mac mail), we're not too far away from that, tbh.

 

[Bruninho]

Skeuomorphism just served one simple objective when iOS was launched: get people onboard and show them what is it and what it does. Years later, the same people already know everything about these things in iOS so theres no point in insisting with stupid skeuomorphic designs. It has done its job and is over for good, thanks God.

I'd rather use a simple, minimalistic and direct (straight to the point) GUI than a GUI that imitates something from real world. I'm not using Apple e-world again. Less is more. Flat design is good for OS performance.

Take Leopard for example - it has huge hits in performance because it had too much aesthetics. Jaguar, in another corner, using the Aqua theme with pinstripe simple background performs things FASTER Than Leopard does (yes, I know Spotlight and Dashboard in Leopard takes a huge hit on background) but even with these stuff disabled, TenFourFox struggles to load sites and open on first run. I'd rather use a simple and minimalistic Flat design OS for more speed, performance, do what I have to do as fast as possible. I don't care if the OS looks like a brushed metal recycle bin or like a green forest from Brazilian Amazonia. I get in an OS, do what I have to do, then get out of it. End period.

Apple is not "it just looks beautiful".

Apple is and has always been about "it just works".

 

[Tozovac]

Skeuomorphism just served one simple objective when iOS was launched: get people onboard and show them what is it and what it does. Years later, the same people already know everything about these things in iOS so theres no point in insisting with stupid skeuomorphic designs. It has done its job and is over for good, thanks God.

Your understanding is very overly minimalistic. You very much need to differentiate "optional gingerbread over the top fancy details" with "common sense affordances." Jony Ive apparently thought the same way when he thew out the baby (when he white-washed away certain common-sense it-just-works affordances) with the bath water (all the over-the-top gingerbread foofaru that he so detested), so you too are a design genius like Jony. Thank God he's pretty much gone and relegated to designing warm, cheery grey Christmas trees.

When flat/minimalist design leads to not knowing instantly when an item is selected or not (or if it's even selectable since greyed-out used to mean non-selectable but now could mean either selectable or already-selected), or whether dark rectangle or light rectangle is the scroll bar vs. the scroll track, or if that word/text on the screen is an actionable item or just information, etc., then "it's just not working" and something has failed...and more intuitive interface cues/details are needed.

By now we know the left knob on the faucet is hot, the right is cold, why do we have red/blue indications and hot/blue labels?
By now we know the top light is go the middle light is slow and the bottom light is stop. Why do we need red/yellow/green?
By now we know the octagon sign is STOP, why do we need the STOP text and red color?
By now we know to stay on a certain side of the road; why do we still have lines on a 2-lane road?
By now we know to watch for hot coffee in a cup from McDonalds. Why bother with "HOT" on the lid?
etc. etc. etc.

 

[Feyl]

Skeuomorphism just served one simple objective when iOS was launched: get people onboard and show them what is it and what it does. Years later, the same people already know everything about these things in iOS so theres no point in insisting with stupid skeuomorphic designs. It has done its job and is over for good, thanks God.

I'd rather use a simple, minimalistic and direct (straight to the point) GUI than a GUI that imitates something from real world. I'm not using Apple e-world again. Less is more. Flat design is good for OS performance.

Take Leopard for example - it has huge hits in performance because it had too much aesthetics. Jaguar, in another corner, using the Aqua theme with pinstripe simple background performs things FASTER Than Leopard does (yes, I know Spotlight and Dashboard in Leopard takes a huge hit on background) but even with these stuff disabled, TenFourFox struggles to load sites and open on first run. I'd rather use a simple and minimalistic Flat design OS for more speed, performance, do what I have to do as fast as possible. I don't care if the OS looks like a brushed metal recycle bin or like a green forest from Brazilian Amazonia. I get in an OS, do what I have to do, then get out of it. End period.

Apple is not "it just looks beautiful".

Apple is and has always been about "it just works".

It's funny how wrong you are. I remember vividly how the performance took a massive hit with OS X Yosemite and iOS 7. And still to this day even on M1 chip the OS still stutters at some places like folders or widgets. And by your logic Apple will not come up with anything new again, right? If the old design served it's purpose only to explain stuff, how will Apple teach us new paradigms with this flat utilitarian approach.

 

[fisherking]

People feel best when they're not completely disconnected from the nature.

they do? which people? all people? you mean, gamers, people who spend a lot of time on their macs, their phones, or watching movies... don't feel their best?

i don't want to have a place on my mac to plant flowers, and i don't expect my houseplants to add up numbers... or read me my email. still, i prefer the view from the window, to, say, a picture of that view on my mac.

there's no harm in a computer being a computer; a thing that, like the phone, the tv, the car... etc, have no analog in the natural world.

otherwise, why not make cars look like horses?

 

[Feyl]

they do? which people? all people? you mean, gamers, people who spend a lot of time on their macs, their phones, or watching movies... don't feel their best?

i don't want to have a place on my mac to plant flowers, and i don't expect my houseplants to add up numbers... or read me my email. still, i prefer the view from the window, to, say, a picture of that view on my mac.

there's no harm in a computer being a computer; a thing that, like the phone, the tv, the car... etc, have no analog in the natural world.

otherwise, why not make cars look like horses?

You completely missed my point and took my answer too literally as you often do. What I said was that the friendlier and more human approach made Apple radically different and better from the competition. In the end (or the beginning actually), Apple with Steve Jobs was the company that made GUI popular. With your logic we'd still be using terminals because why bother with a stupid mouse and dragging windows around the screen. Such a drag. And the important part of this story is that basically every industry is inspired by nature since forever. As en example you can look at cars and their curves and smiley fronts.

 

[Bruninho]

otherwise, why not make cars look like horses?

Lol!! I couldn’t have explained better to them. I don’t want fisher price looking OS, otherwise I’d still be using Windows XP. Oh, how I hated that kindergarten theme. Every XP I used, on the very first minute after logon I have always set up the classic Windows 9x theme back.

I’m glad that with Big Sur I do not have to do that. I want something that works out of the box. And Big Sur certainly delivers that to me, in spite of the SIP (which I disabled btw). See, I complain about SIP, but instead of complaining like hell for an entire day about that, I took an action: google, search, find a way around it, read the documentation, as a tech-savvy user would, and disabled it. There you go. Stop complaining and DO something about.

 

[CasualFanboy]

I personally have ZERO issue with the Big Sur UI changes.

Lucky you.

In fact, I like them, and that is my professional opinion. There is very little details about their UI/UX changes to complain about:

Hah, professional opinion. What does that even mean?

- 2D Dock, I understand they wanted parity with iOS, although I think that it should've been the other way around and keep the 3D Dock (subjective opinion, but they should at least give that option to the user);

Why should there by visual parity between two completely different types of products? People can keep saying it repeatedly, but it's still not true. Phones and laptops are not even similar.

- Transparent menubar changing according to the wallpaper (again subjective opinion, but again at least should've given to the users the option to choose between no transparency, transparency and the dark/white modes no matter which was the wallpaper);
- The system security is blocking me from changing the /Apps and /Users/Bruno/Documents folders icon for no apparent reason. Before Catalina I could do that;

None of this would be nearly as terrible if Apple wasn't constantly restricting choice. You're accidentally arguing against yourself. I don't have a problem with people LOVING this interface. I have a problem with them trying to make me love it.

Other than that, I have nothing to complain about Big Sur design. Look at Ubuntu "Hirsute Hippo" Gnome, they're doing pretty much the same design. Many linux distros are following the exact same design, not just Apple.

As I said before, Linux (particularly Gnome) has been designing this way for a decade now. BUT - there are choices there. You can configure Gnome, or (like me) just not use it.

Regarding menu transparency, toolbars, window titlebars, buttons, I have absolutely zero complaints. You're just knee-jerk reacting to these changes with subjective opinion not based on facts, like other user suggested before. You don't like it, you made it very clear. You prefer the things how they were before - I understand your reaction, my dad has the exact same reaction. But instead of bitching about, what is he doing? trying to adapt to the changes, while considering a move back to Windows or a move to Linux.

Subjective opinion vs professional opinion. There's no serious way to respond to this.

There's nothing you can do about except downgrade to Catalina or any other older version.

I'm still on Mojave.

Move along with the times, dude.

No.

Yes, flat design has had its heyday, and I am pretty sure you will bitch much more if Apple decides to adopt the neuomorphism. God forbids them, I hate this new weird web design trend and prefer Metro/Flat designs because I am a minimalist professional UI/UX Designer and this style is what my clients ask for on their projects.

We're not your clients.

Bitching about the traffic siginal buttons or window titlebars design 24/7 is not going to change anything for you. Do something about it instead. That is my advice to you.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[CasualFanboy]

Nope, I don't remember the internet being so toxic and full of moaners before.

> using the word "toxic" unironically to describe something other than nuclear radiation 🤣

 

[Tozovac]

OK, I am starting to think that this is just a knee-jerk reaction to many of the Big Sur changes.

Regarding menu transparency, toolbars, window titlebars, buttons, I have absolutely zero complaints. You're just knee-jerk reacting to these changes with subjective opinion not based on facts, like other user suggested before.

I don't know about others, but my knee has been jerking since first downloading iOS7. So yes, maybe I'm still jumping to conclusions about my opinions that are going on 8 years of age and I'm not giving things enough time to settle in. Maybe I'll suddenly stop feeling the delays and uncertainties that much of Big Sur's monochromatic white/grey/lighter grey borderless flat button-less interface keeps providing.

 

[Bruninho]

> using the word "toxic" unironically to describe something other than nuclear radiation 🤣

Go to facebook for an hour or so and you'll see with your own eyes.

 

[fisherking]

You completely missed my point and took my answer too literally as you often do. What I said was that the friendlier and more human approach made Apple radically different and better from the competition. In the end (or the beginning actually), Apple with Steve Jobs was the company that made GUI popular. With your logic we'd still be using terminals because why bother with a stupid mouse and dragging windows around the screen. Such a drag. And the important part of this story is that basically every industry is inspired by nature since forever. As en example you can look at cars and their curves and smiley fronts.

"every industry is inspired by nature"... i completely disagree. and i didn't miss your point, i just don't get it. i think macs are friendly enough, and human enough. and flat windows versus 3D windows isn't the defining element; how people interact with their macs is what matters most.

i don't see anyone having a meltdown using big sur, just some people on this forum (and a few other places online) stressing the GUI. and that's fine, but won't change anything. nor should it.