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Well, if nothing else, thank you for agreeing with me that those are aesthetic decisions.

I thought I very clearly referred to a specific “before” and “after” in post #1,366 for my question.

Why? For the sake of 2-sided give & take discussion.

It’s funny, when I call those “aesthetic decisions” as being form-first “fashion over function” changes that result confusion at times and/or inefficient interaction (with specific examples of the broken design from all the added vagueness from my perspective), I’ve been told more than once how flat design is more efficient and clearer, etc.

But when I ask to be shown how certain “befores” had failures and where then fixed or improved by the minimalist “afters,” it’s all silence... :)

(And that deafening silence is a fact, not an opinion)
seriously… you have an opinion about the current GUI, and are free to discuss it. but no one here has to prove anything to you. apple’s made a design choice, and they are, as always, in control. still…

“How might the prior method that I prefer in this example be less efficient?”

who said it’s ‘less efficient?’ it’s simply the prior method, and not directly in competion with the current method.

“After all, if the newer, flatter, more text based and monochromatic interface design is more efficient (or functionally better) to some, then how specifically is the prior version less efficient?”

how is this any different from your first question?

anyway (& i've said this before lol) will bow out of this thread; it's an unending cycle, and no one, on 'either side', changes their mind (or learns anything). am including myself, of course
 
who said it’s ‘less efficient?’ it’s simply the prior method, and not directly in competion with the current method.

At least in this particular thread, @Bruninho has stated that flat design is more efficient in more than one post here. Sure nobody has to respond to my request. Those same people shouldn’t then say it’s only an opinion that much of flat/minimalist interface design is based on fashion/form-first and is rather full inefficiencies and failures in intuitive design. People shouldn’t be so astounded by my sig file then, which must be based on fact in the absence of examples of how things were broken before and how flat design fixed what was broken before. Not because I want to be proven right. But because I genuinely want to understand how some find non-Flat non-minimalist interfaces to be less efficient. I’m convinced they just prefer (or can tolerate) them more than I do, and that’s ok.

Edit: In other words: What I define as preferable (“before”) was apparently not necessarily broken. But Apple fixed things. Why? So far, solely for aesthetics and/or marketing and/or for the sake of change and freshening things up. For Big Sur in particular, the all-white mail app with all functions/buttons being a monochromatic light-colored font is no more than fresh light blue lipstick on a white pig. How can any of this be refuted if it’s not possible for anyone to illustrate an example of what was failed/broken before, and then provide their rationale for why flat/minimalist/monochromatic etc. fixed what was wrong and is more inuitive/clearer now?
 
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The flat UI lover in this thread might enjoy an Apple //e, or an Amiga running WorkBench 1.5, or even MS-DOS or CP/M. Those were all flat UIs. Flat UI was done because computers in the 80s and early 90s couldn't do anything else. What limitation exists today to force an outdated interface from the past on the modern world?!

Go back to an Apple //e, Nokia 5185i and leave us skeuo lovers alone.

Anyone remember the Nokia N95? Quite ahead of its time as well:

When Phones Were Fun: Nokia N95 (2007)
 
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@CasualFanboy or this:


giphy.gif
 
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I'm still enjoying Mountain Lion here...Still 'just works'

don't sell your Mac, find an older *.ISO image of your preferred OS and either run it in a VM or attempt to boot it on a USB stick..

Mountain Lion actually works on this thing. It's slower in a VM, but can run natively. Only issues are:

1. resolution is stuck at 1024x768, no display driver available.

2. closing the lid (putting Mac to sleep) crashes or kernel panics on wake. You have to login again and reload any apps (also pops up a message saying 'you shut your compuer down due to a problem')

3. No hardware acceleration. Since most of what I do on this is browse MacRumors or check my email, keep up with contact info, notes, and random Reddit, that's not really an issue.

4. Touchbar just acts like function row keys (Esc, F1, F2, etc)

Since it is older, I don't use banking, ebay, Amazon or the like or use accounts (no Apple ID association). But you won't instantly get hacked just for using old software (unless you do sketchy stuff such as view porn, pirate software, etc, then you're pretty much asking for it)

Firefox 30, as old as it is, works perfectly well with Xenforo-based forums such as this one. Even the dark mode option works. I never liked how Quantum-era Firefox became a browser that's intent on 'protecting me from myself'. I'm always more fond of the more open source, hackable Firefox of the pre-Quantum era, back when Mozilla was more like Netscape than trying to be Brave or Chromium.
I’m glad you’re enjoying it, but seriously, if you think it’s good in a VM, it would be soooo much better on real hardware with graphics acceleration.

I highly recommend Chromium Legacy for web browsing. I know it’s not Firefox and the UI is very flat, but all sites work.

Also, while I know you had trouble downloading it, VMWare will fix the 1024x768 limitation.
 
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All sites work with Firefox 30.

If I could run it natively (OS X 10.8) I would. Stupid T-2 chip. Can't even run Linux natively thanks to it.
 
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Whatever I can't load is usually a site I have zero interest in, or has its own take on horrid UI design. Most sites that I visit if not accessible otherwise I use the archive, which also draws a better UI anyway. Case in point, the site for Chicken Wings Comics, an Aviation web-comic.

More Flat UI designs from the 1980s(proving how outdated it is):

Texas Instruments Home Computer (TI-99/4A, 1979, actually my very first computer):

425467131e33673b58de296d8e0dfa3d.jpg


VisiON, IBM Personal Computer 5150 (1980):

ibm_gui_vision_003-640w.png


GS/OS (Apple IIgs):
unnamed.gif


I agree. With True-tone and screens capable of retina-quality high definition graphics, why regress to the past with flat UI design?
 
Whatever I can't load is usually a site I have zero interest in, or has its own take on horrid UI design. Most sites that I visit if not accessible otherwise I use the archive, which also draws a better UI anyway. Case in point, the site for Chicken Wings Comics, an Aviation web-comic.

More Flat UI designs from the 1980s(proving how outdated it is):

Texas Instruments Home Computer (TI-99/4A, 1979, actually my very first computer):

View attachment 1755105

VisiON, IBM Personal Computer 5150 (1980):

View attachment 1755106

GS/OS (Apple IIgs):
View attachment 1755107

I agree. With True-tone and screens capable of retina-quality high definition graphics, why regress to the past with flat UI design?
- "Flat"
- Obvious Z-axis

pick one!

If you wanna see a flat UI, open tmux!
 
Well let's consider this; what are the chances Apple could modify aspects of the U.I in the next release this fall?

Unfortunately I still think it's a little too early for them to make major changes, even though they probably know they should, because it would come way too close to admitting a mistake. There will be relatively meaningless changes here and there, probably in a few obscure apps, but overall the interface will still look just as bad as it does now.

If they stay on current pace the most noticeable changes will probably involve fewer choices, increasing their share of developer revenues, more touch-friendly buttons, and stripping out features that aren't required for surfing safari. It's just sad, really.
 
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That's really what this is all about. As I said before, this simplistic no-detail design lowers the entry barriers for people who want to be "designers." There are other reason, none of them are good. Fad mimicry mostly.

I do think (opinion alert) there’s some merit in that statement, unfortunately.

In the absence of any examples of how aspects of Big Sur and iPad OS’s flat/minimalist/monochromatic interface fixed interface issues after the “golden age” (~2005-2012), I sadly & truly believe (opinion alert, opinion alert) that the main reasons for the rise of the simplistic no-detail design are based not so much on what was robust for the customer but more due to background forces. Truly, what’s the value (what was fixed that was broken before) by rendering Big Sur’s email app to be all white monochromatic with light-colored low contrast fonts and flat “buttons” that are hardly distinguishable from other neighboring buttons/folders. Fugly and sometimes painful to use when searching for emails in folders, where the less-dominant arrowhead method of showing sub folders is not nearly as clear as before and takes a little more work each time when seeking out a hundred different folders on a given workday.

Three main reasons as I see it (opinion alert, opinion alert), none of them directly based on fixing issues with the then-existing interfaces to improve customer usage.

1) Beavers (have to) build dams, marketers (have to) market, and designers (have to) design. Put a beaver atop the Eiffel Tower and it’ll look to build a damn. After a few years of wonderfully appropriate, engaging, and intuitive interfaces that were refined to the hilt, loved by customers, and envied (and stolen/revised) by the competition, the Marketers and Designers at Apple needed something to market and something to design...something to further separate themselves from the competition’s half-baked iOS/OS clones...something to shake things up and make their jobs interesting (and justified). As Apple’s two defining credos have always been “provide just what (we think) is necessary (for the customer)” and “minimalist industrial design” (translation: there isn’t much low-hanging-fruit of unnecessary extras available to pull out), then what other option to shake things up while staying true to the credo is there other than to look for things to shave away while injecting more minimalist design. This need to actively chase change in existing products is an unavoidable consequence of needing to be fresh and new in order to support expectations of revenue growth when it’s not possible to consistently keep inventing new products.

2) Jony gained more power after Steve died and Scott “left.” Jony got his mitts into the software/interface design. He’d gone on record stating there was too much fluff in the OS’s of the Forestall days. He loved much of the Windows phone’s wafer-thin-font and light blue/white dumbed-down-simplified aesthetic (which, ironically, was a forced invention by Microsoft so as to not pirate iOS so blatantly directly like Samsung did back in the day). He’s gone on record being painfully jealous of the minimalist Yahoo weather app (which, in place of white clouds, yellow suns, and blue rain drops that provided a near-instantaneous assessment of the upcoming weather were instead thin-line-outline simplistic representations that took a little more concentration than before to quickly assess the week’s weather ahead). In less time than it took for some OS refinements, he radically reinvented iOS into his vision in under a year, birthing out a half-baked iOS7 full of reinventions (in the absence of any proof that any of the iOS6 interface elements were broken or failures, and fixed by the radically-reinvented interface iOS7 elements).

3) The world follows Apple design, even off a cliff sometimes. If Apple does it, it must be good, no? If Apple does it, then I want it in my website or app or else not look up to date. Apple does it, then others copy and it proliferates. If it’s proliferating, then it must be good, no?
 
This need to actively chase change in existing products is an unavoidable consequence of needing to be fresh and new in order to support expectations of revenue growth when it’s not possible to consistently keep inventing new products.
That's pretty much my primary critique of consumerism in general, to be honest. It's infected everything now. Companies spend a lot of time now thinking about how to shorten the obsolescence cycle of their products, and how to turn everything from an ownership model into a subscription service. That's why they love iPhone so much. It's far more based in subscriptions and microtransactions, and people tend to buy new phones much more often than desktops and laptops. Notice how no one actually charges for their yearly-released operating systems anymore. These releases are simply vehicles to entice consoomers to buy new product, or to create false obsolescence of your computer through incompatibility. Oh, and of course in line with what you said, a yearly operating system release just gives people something to do. They aren't done on a feature-ready basis, it's simply because "it's that time of year again."

In less time than it took for some OS refinements, he radically reinvented iOS into his vision in under a year, birthing out a half-baked iOS7 full of reinventions (in the absence of any proof that any of the iOS6 interface elements were broken or failures, and fixed by the radically-reinvented interface iOS7 elements).
That's definitely true. There's also an element of his little ego project, so that the design would be more about him than anyone else. Typical petty mindset of managers though.
 
Whatever I can't load is usually a site I have zero interest in, or has its own take on horrid UI design. Most sites that I visit if not accessible otherwise I use the archive, which also draws a better UI anyway. Case in point, the site for Chicken Wings Comics, an Aviation web-comic.

More Flat UI designs from the 1980s(proving how outdated it is):

Texas Instruments Home Computer (TI-99/4A, 1979, actually my very first computer):

View attachment 1755105

VisiON, IBM Personal Computer 5150 (1980):

View attachment 1755106

GS/OS (Apple IIgs):
View attachment 1755107

I agree. With True-tone and screens capable of retina-quality high definition graphics, why regress to the past with flat UI design?
No, it does NOT prove anything, you're missing the point completely. Your logic is embarassing.
And I don't know why Big Sur is so ugly, but it is. The dock already had round corners, no need to change that. And no, it's not that I can't get used to it, if it's ugly it's ugly and will stay so, but NOT because it's flat. It's just too much iOS like, unbearably iOS like. Oh, I forgot, Apple never makes mistakes, I am wrong.
 
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I was pointing out that Flat UI design is an outdated design. It's from the 80s. Everyone tells me and everyone in this thread that flat is 'modern' but I would bet none of the Flat UI lovers are old enough to have experienced its first coming (which to be honest existed for a reason).

Screenshots of past Flat iterations just prove that whatever it is today is just a more high-def incarnation of that time. I don't miss that time in computing one bit, and was glad to see it go in favor of skeuo, but here we are going on 9 years of never-ending flat UI again. It's like the 80s are back.

Tozovac, if I'm not too mistaken, the Weather app in iOS7+ no longer relies on Yahoo! (in fact, it's broken on iOS 6 and OS X Mountain Lion) it relies on The Weather Channel, which a few years ago, went 'flat' in their forecast icons and overall interface (once it relied on a system called WeatherSTAR but that's long since defunct)

So the iOS 7+ app had to match the design to keep the license or something. At least they added in a nice animation of the actual weather, better than flat icons on white or black! It's the least offensive of the 'modern' 80s style apps.

If the UI gets any flatter we'll be back to command lines again, only instead of having to type commands, we'll just summon Siri or something.
 
I don't know, maybe because that's why we're wasting our time here discussing and explaining stuff. If somebody ask me why I like this or that or why I like this kind of music I know why I like it. Some people just say "I don't know I just like it". I never understood this. I can say that about food.. I eat burgers because I just love them. I drink beer because I just like it. There's not much on there as it is with art, music or in this case the devices we buy.
Yes, we're wasting our time.
 
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all this discussion won't change what apple does. and i don't believe that macusers in general struggle with the GUI, or ever have.ppl generally adapt pretty quickly to what's new (and, to be honest, i imagine most macusers just do as they've always done, and don't investigate new options... until they need them.

the only people stressing 'added minimalism' (or whatever) are people on forums like this, who thrive on obsessing over details (i do too, sometimes). but then i get back to work, and life goes on... until the next OS.

EDIT: btw, do ppl not know that jony ive left apple 2 years ago? since some of you are still yelling at him... 🤣
I knew that Sir Jonathan left years ago. I bet he's relieved.
 
Tozovac, if I'm not too mistaken, the Weather app in iOS7+ no longer relies on Yahoo! (in fact, it's broken on iOS 6 and OS X Mountain Lion) it relies on The Weather Channel, which a few years ago, went 'flat' in their forecast icons and overall interface (once it relied on a system called WeatherSTAR but that's long since defunct)

So the iOS 7+ app had to match the design to keep the license or something. At least they added in a nice animation of the actual weather, better than flat icons on white or black! It's the least offensive of the 'modern' 80s style apps.

What I recall most from an article about Jony Ive joking with the Yahoo CEO was that the thing he was most "jealous" of ultimately provided little benefit to the user. He focused on the "background aesthetics" that appealed to his sense as a "design genius" but at the expense of the "content" that should be prioritized as the focus.

He loved Yahoo's implementation of the local photo reflecting the current weather conditions, but along the way the app also adopted yahoo app's rather thin, wispy, hard-to read fonts and icons as well as stick-diagram representations of the daily weather icons that let the background image shine thru. The thin-line fonts/icons were not as easy to quickly recognize & process, especially the stick diagram icons that all blended together at quick glance and no longer stood out vs. each other...requiring just that little bit more of concentration than before to get a sense of the weather....a good example of the main beef many of us have over the inefficiencies brought forth by flat design, monochromatic design, material design, etc: No longer was it possible to get the instant visual feedback of the forecast ahead via solid yellow sounds, solid white clouds, various rain drops or wind gusts, etc. In one fell swoop the "background" aesthetic became the focus and the "content" took a back seat to supporting the preferred aesthetic.

In my opinion, the background local weather imagery was maybe cute the first time you used it but then of marginal usefulness after; why would you even need a visual representation of the weather just outside, at the expense of quick comprehension of the week's weather ahead? (very similar to grossly oversized screen-wasting hero images/videos that designers utilize nowadays that provide virtually zero functional benefit on websites after the first "wow" glance and actually reduce the functionality from spreading things out more than before and requiring more scrolling to take in what the website offers. Check out the current Apple Educational page, it's full of the largest, most useless images that are most annoying when trying to take in the content on a mobile device.


So ironic: For all those who complain about the "gingerbread" interface details that they consider to be superfluous to the function of a given app or OS or webpage, how possibly then can the same not be said for the example above where so much background visual gingerbread was added into an app whose main purpose was to provide weather details quickly, not entertain and "wow" the user? And on top of that, the background gingerbread somewhat obscured the content (distracting users in the process)?

This article offered a lot of similar, level-headed sentiment:


Also check out some of the commentary after this article:


Screen Shot 2021-04-11 at 1.01.35 PM.png


I knew that Sir Jonathan left years ago. I bet he's relieved.

Not as relieved as many of us customers.

Well let's consider this; what are the chances Apple could modify aspects of the U.I in the next release this fall?
If recent history is any proof, there will be slight (corrective) changes here & there, pulling back in elements from the "golden age" of supremely intuitive interfaces (namely around 2005-2012) that were (erroneously) white-washed away starting around 2013. I've noticed a few "corrections" here & there with each recent mobile/desktop version update. There have also been steps backwards along the way (the Big Sur mail app I find to be the worst offender, it's way too unnecessarily white/monochromatic throughout).
 
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Windows XP.

The exact same criticism was levelled against XP back in the day.

Now it's seen as onr of the best desktop Windows releases ever.
Yes, but what bothers me is that Apple has locked down their UI so much now that one can't even change system icons. So we're stuck with the way it looks, regardless of how one feels about it.
 
Seems in some ways, Apple took a page from Microsoft morphing its desktop OS into unpleasant. It is sad that Apple took the fun out of their desktop and certainly out of such apps as iTunes. Everything is pretty much available but just plain uninviting as compared to days gone by.
 
Who cares.

The people who didn't use stock XP had the option to change some things. They weren't thwarted at every turn by the operating system's "features."

But ok. The point you're making is "things have been criticized before, so criticism is not really a valid criticism."

No, my point is that when XP hit the market the outcry was immense - it as called cartoonish, loud, immature looking, brash etc.

Now people remember it fondly.

My point has nothing to do with customization and everything to do with the stock UI.

Why do you all want to put meaning in MY post that I did not mean?

Want to talk about customization? Fine - just do so in response to a different post in this thread.

My post was only EVER about stock.
 
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