Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[Azrael9]

You issue along with many others, I think, is that Apple does not provide a cheap tower so instead you argue for an iMac that functionally is a tower at the expense of a sleek design which is a necessary consequence. That would kill the iconic iMacs as their existence is based on their nice, nearly invisible, packaging of a computer and screen. It would be much easier if you who want a cheap tower actually said so.

I think that's what many are saying. Or they're thinking it even if they're not saying it. Personally, I'd rather they offered both and then I could buy the tower and a rationally priced monitor to match.

Apple's attention to the desktop market for Macs in the last ten years have been shocking. The treatment of Mini, iMac and Mac Pro with the iStale designs has been derisory. The recent Mac Pro design, obviously commendable (but an absurd price), shows there is still a heart beat in Apple's Ministary of Innovation for Mac's dept.

Historically, in the UK, they offered the G5 Tower for £999. Inc. VAT. And that was supposed to have an 'expensive' case.

It's quite possible to have both. But Apple now want people to pay £6k for a tower.

I'm quite happy for the iMac to be the 'iMac' in the £799 (make it cheaper...Apple...) to £1500 range.

But I'd like a consumer tower in the £1700-£3000 range.

In the absence of the former 'consumer' (actually, a pro workstation was what many of the 'faithful' called it back then...whilst deriding the iMac as a 'toy...') tower, the iMac 27 inch £1700-£3560 price range has to step up and be 'that' tower and offer that power. Cul-de-sac designs compromising cpu performance, the life of the machine under load and cut down gpus for the money paid aren't good enough. The iMac had little attention two years before Apple released it's tepid update last year. And it's been another year+ and we're still waiting.

It's about will. Marketing. Upsell. Testing what the market will take. With all that implies.

Hopefully a new design (I believe...) and a substantial spec boost and I can pull the trigger this WWDC.

Designs. Sure, you can kill functionality with design. But the iMac is far more evolved than the Bondi iMac. And powerful. No one is talking about killing design for performance (see Trash Can), people want that performance. That Apple left the Mac desktop to wither whilst gushing on the iPhone profit machine is 'on them.'

They could have included better cooling and a better gpu or boosted the specs or dropped the Fusion drive like a stink in the last year...they've had the options to make it perform more like a 'tower' but they've not chosen to do so. They've chosen to put a £1700-£3560 AiO at that price and people expect alot for that kind of money. It's not cheap. And for that kind of money people think tower. It used to be a Mac Tower.

I'm all for a new design but I want better performance and better cooling. I don't want design cul-de-sacs. It's up to Apple to try harder. It's my money. I'm the customer. They're job is to do better.

I'm hoping the new iMac has a design were form follows function that follows the 'performance price bracket' it has the audacity to occupy.

They're a 1 trillion company. Apple. Do your job and make the Mac desktops better performers and better value. And if a design is 'nice', that's a bonus. But it's not the cake.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

if I buy a new iMac with a 12-core processor (upcoming model), can I place it next to my older iMac (quad core i5), and then separate the 12-core processor into two 6-core processors so that both machines can operate with the newer hardware?

Is this a joke ? lol
And the max the iMac 2020 can get is 10 cores.

 

[Moonjumper]

You issue along with many others, I think, is that Apple does not provide a cheap tower so instead you argue for an iMac that functionally is a tower at the expense of a sleek design which is a necessary consequence. That would kill the iconic iMacs as their existence is based on their nice, nearly invisible, packaging of a computer and screen. It would be much easier if you who want a cheap tower actually said so.

There have been multiple posts in this thread about wanting a cheap tower (what was actually said was cheaper than the Mac Pro), as long as it is done right.

 

[Azrael9]

The good thing with the iMac is that there are no leaks of cases so we actually get surprised when it is revealed. iPhone leaks are so many so there is no point looking at the keynote.

That we're hearing almost nothing...is a good thing.

Azrael.
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There have been multiple posts in this thread about wanting a cheap tower (what was actually said was cheaper than the Mac Pro), as long as it is done right.

Apple used to other more than one motherboard in the old Mac tower days.

There's two (well, three...) iMac models, 21, 27 and iMac Pro 27inch. I don't see why we can't have another motherboard for a more consumer orientated Mac tower like we used to have. Give people choice.

Why it has to be this 'upsell' pyramid, I don't know. That was 'fine' when it was a simple Grid because prices were rational then.

But now you can't get a Mac desktop under £1k. And you can't get a Mac tower for less than £5999.

You have to pay £1750 (about) for a tower substitute with mediocre graphics.

I'm happy to be positive about the iMac (and the new incoming model if it has power, value and design...in that order.) I've had two of them. They've been decent servants. But I fully understand those that want their towers at credible prices.

Azrael.
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if I buy a new iMac with a 12-core processor (upcoming model), can I place it next to my older iMac (quad core i5), and then separate the 12-core processor into two 6-core processors so that both machines can operate with the newer hardware?

Good luck with that.

Just re-purpose your older iMac to other duties and keep the heavy, cutting edge workloads for the new one. When. It emerges from the Apple ether.

Azrael.
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... so again we get sub-par CPU choices because of the combination of Intel's mediocre chips and Apple's unwillingness to create a case that is able to properly cool them?

Well. We don't know anything for sure re: Apple's choice of Intel cpu just yet.

Rumour has it Intel is going to discontinue previous generations of chips Apple is using. So Apple may have to use the recent generation just launched. It's just a question of which wattage series.

The easiest answer seems to just drop in the iMac Pro's cooling and if they're doing a redesign that cooling and performance should be chief concerns with the iMac's lofty pricing.

As for cores and rockets...

Intel will not launch 11th Gen Core-X and Core-S series this year? - VideoCardz.com

A new roadmap appears. No 11th Gen Core desktop series this year? It was expected that the 11th Gen Core-S series will not be launched soon. After all, Intel has just launched its Comet Lake-S series based 14nm architecture. However, the fact that even the Core-X series will not be updated this...

videocardz.com

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Its actually Apple putting higher-end i7 and i9 chips in the current iMac and in the process made the iMac a viable alternative for those doing 'pro' work, such as Audio and design, who really don't need ECC ram or a Xeon but want maximum performance. The solution is pretty easy; Apple just needs to give the regular iMac the iMPs cooling system, whack in 10th gen chips and done.

Didn't Intel's 18 core cpu get a huge price drop from £2k to about £1k? I wonder if that was reflected in the iMac Pro's pricing...options.

The Mac Tower used to have Xeons and be in the £2k+ pricing range? No reason they can't redesign the iMac around the iMac Pro's capabilities at a much cheaper price. Eg. £2-ish. The entry iMac Pro has been as low as £3500-ish. I think they could get it lower than that if Apple took advantage of the price cuts to the Xeon processor...halved the ram, ssd etc.

But I hear what you're saying. We don't really need the ECC or Xeon.

ie. "Apple just needs to give the regular iMac the iMPs cooling system, whack in 10th gen chips and done."

Azrael.
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So what do we dream about in a redesign?

To me it would be awesome if the Tier3 "big iMac" starts with 1TB SSD and that Ram is still accessible via a door. It would be very nice if a switch to "iMac Pro" would mean we could get around having to order a BTO machine to get the best gfx and intel processor.
Oh yeah. And i am begging for no price explosion. I am planing 4000-4200€. + maybe another 160€ for RAM. If apple just tacks on another 300€ for new design ill be sad.

We can't be sure of no Apple price explosion. Their recent pricing moves since 2008 (eg. jacking up the price of the iMac by £300 in a recession...) live in ignominy. They've ridden up prices under a marketing pretext of 'pro.' Transparent. As 'glass.'

I think we'll get more power, more value and more design.

In that order. Please.

Azrael.
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This so called gamer Mac is puzzling to me. I think it is complete BS or the rumour was lost in translation. There are basically no games on Mac OS, and I doubt Apple will put in a higher refresh screen and/or better GPUs and then say, 'Please use Windows in Bootcamp'.
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I know, I know . It all stems from me switching from a 27in 4K monitor to a 32in one. Having a 27in iMac as my main screen, and a larger 32in additional monitor would feel completely wrong, and is a non-starter for me.

Rumour tea leaves. The iMac is poised to become a much better GPU. One that can handle 3d rendering and 3d games after conquering the hallowed grounds of Photoshop and Video work.

It's take the best part of 6 years for the gpus in the iMac to cope with that 5k display. And latterly, in the last couple of revisions, it's better.

But a three year old Polaris in the iMac...? Seriously?

RDNA1 is almost a year old. RDNA2 is launching this fall (across the entire product stack so it DOESN'T have to be JUST for the iMac Pro...) which will be more efficient and make the current Polaris gpu blush. We're on the cusp of kick az gpus. With Ray Tracing. (Something I used to dream about...)((...don't ask...))

With the latter options, the iMac may come of age. It's been a long road.

As for Mac gaming. It's a dark art.

But in fairness to Apple (I'll give them credit where it's due...) the Apple Arcade surprised me. It means that any update to the current iMac will give it credible (though not necessarily cutting edge...) gpu performance. We'll have to wait for RDNA2 for that.

Coming 1st to PCs ie before the consoles.

AMD Big Navi to arrive before next-generation consoles - VideoCardz.com

AMD Big Navi is a “halo product” AMD has confirmed that their upcoming Big Navi graphics processor will be the first product based on RDNA 2 architecture. This means that the next-generation gaming consoles (Play Station 5 and XBOX Series X), which are also officially featuring RDNA2 based...

videocardz.com

This fall.

In the mean time, an improved iMac will round out the 'top end' of the Apple Arcade ecosphere. What that means is high quality casual games for Mac users who are creative users 1st and 'part time gamers' 2nd, right?

It's up to apple to creative the marketing dollars and relationships with game companies to get the 'triple AAA' gaming studios.

Buy Bungie or something. BUY BUNGIE.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

So much of the discussion here has to do with processor improvements, 6-, 8-, 10- and more cores, all of that greater power, and other similar aspects of any new model introduction - I wonder what percentage of users are really making use of such capabilities and how many really need it.

*snip.*

What matters to me? Large and high quality display. Enough RAM and storage for my uses. Processor that can run the programs I use. Reliability - thus SSD only. Compatibility with the programs I use and the files I've accumulated over many years.

Power. We crave it. Want wants it. We will use it.

The pS5 is power. Consumers want it. They'll pay for it.

Mac users? Being 'creative?' (and part time gamers, ofc...)

We want to rinse every last drop of power out of any Mac. That the iMac presumes it's price point alongside PC towers then being an AiO doesn't excuse it from giving power, value and design. More so as it's 'Apple.'

We pay for the 'best' and expect 'the best.'

6 core is old hat. 8 core is now mainstream. 12 core is pushing on as the performance sweet spot. And for those that can pay double the price of the 12 core can get the 16 core AMD.

Cinebench renders still aren't 'instant.' GPUs can still 'barely' cope with gaming ray tracing. 8k camera footage for those 8k tvs. Gaming performance that can handle 4k with all the visual fidelities. What about opening 16 tabs in safari whilst doing Photoshop work, rendering video in the background? What about 300 audio tracks? 500? A 1000? (just how many audio filters do people need? Do we need that many tracks?) What about 100 Photoshop layers at 600dpi? Or using that 'big' brush in Photoshop on bill board posters? What about instant boot? What about file transfers you don't have to wait for?

How many things on a computer are 'instant' now? What about performance that can compensate for slovenly Mac OS updates?

Computers are far from being all they can be. There are always bottlenecks. People were asking what were we doing to do with all that cpu power when we were still slumming it on Hard drives (yes, iMac...and Fusion Drives...) and then SSD? BOOM. Warp speed.

What about better PCIE throughput? We could do with that doubling or quadling from where we are now.

Azrael.
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That's why I decided to shift my gaming to console last week after struggling with crappy bootcamp bluetooth drivers for hours. I just wanted to play Minecraft Dungeons and when I get home from work I want technology that just works. The side effect of that is I now have less use for a new iMac, and when I do decide to buy I probably won't be so concerned about getting the best GPU anymore. I think I'm going to wait and see how the Mac on arm processor develops over the next year before I spend big money on a new iMac.

I spotted this article over on Toms Hardware. Might force Apple to move rather than keep some models on the 8th gen CPUs:Link

Good catch on the link to 8th gen.

Looks like the iMac is moving forwards.

Nothing wrong with Console gaming. The best thing I saw was my Mum the smack down on the PS3 I bought here and the Batman game. A 44+ combo putting the beat down on the goons.

I think the PS5 will be a paradigm shift. Performance. Value.

I'm not so good with the 'pad' it has. It took me long enough to get used to a keyboard and mouse (it was like playing a game with a bar of soap...) I was more of an C64 and Joystick kind of gamer.

Boocamp. Urgh. I've used it to play an old PC game. Other than that...I don't touch it.

Azrael.
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This heavily depends on what kind of stuff you do. For most parts, even video editing is not that hard and some things that are harder (like exporting) are also things where you can go out for a walk, have a coffee or something and come back. Obviously, the more sophisticated video editing that you do, more is asked for in regards to processing power.

Personally, I argue that the bigger issue starts to be GPU power and the lack of (good) options. If you happen to want to do something more elaborate on video/photo on Mac, you soon notice that things would get faster with better GPUs. On top of that, many of these things deal with interactive performance, meaning that you can't really just have a break and come back once a long task finishes.

It just sucks that to get anywhere close to modern day GPU performance on a Mac, it's gonna cost you a lot and/or get clunky. Yep, not perhaps the common use case ("most people" imply all the moms, pops & kids which are likely far more numerous and happy with simple projects), but you did ask specifically about performance for video/photo. The people who happen to be... say, prosumers, are getting the short stick at the moment.

Great post. 'Nailed it.'

Mac Mini. Crap iG. On any upsell model. Seriously?
iMac. £1700+. Mediocre GPU.
Mac Pro. £6k. Laughable at that price gpu.

We can't entertain the idea that people pay £1500-£3k to play patty cake, drink lattes whilst email browsing and light word processing.

Just browsing through YouTube content creators (prosumers to Pro) are doing video encoding, image editing work, 3d gaming, rendering, modelling, streaming...some of that...at the same time. It's not surprising that AMD's multi-core approach is gaining traction.

Azrael.

 

[Dave245]

Personally I think what Apple have to do is pretty simple, reduce the bezels on the iMac along with putting in better speakers, a better camera and updated specs. Oh and maybe add the space grey option. I'm not asking Apple to redesign the wheel here, the iMac is iconic in it's shape, they don't need to change that, just update it a little (with reduced bezels).

 

[Azrael9]

The idea of gaming on Mac or a "gaming" Mac is ridiculous. That ship has well and truly sailed. No gamers will swap from a cheap Uber-powerful PC build to a dated underpowered AIO with very limited games available.

Erm. In 'conventional' terms, the boast from Steve Jobs that mac gaming was going to become the best and that it was going to ride upon the crest of the Blue and White G3 towers? 'No.' A shame Steve never followed through beyond that initial flurry. A shame. As it was looking promising for a brief moment.

The current iMac is a sorry advert to anybody coming from a PC tower for the same money. If Games are what you're after.

However, there is a new hope.

Apple Arcade is here. And it will get better (if Apple follows through...) and is showing some promise with it's current 'casual gaming' modus operandi. It's chief concern games for the massive iPhone/iPad and pending large market ATV.

In terms of Triple AAA PS5 and PC GaMOAR style releases. Apple Arcade hasn't roaded out teh ecosphere with 'Mac' at the high end. There are Mac games. But perhaps Apple can buy a games studio...or offer $$$ to bring the big releases over.

That Open GL to Metal deprecation and future? That was always going to hurt cutting the apron strings with developers who gave Mac half azzed ports.

Apple is the only PC company that doesn't appear to have a gaming machine. Any RDNA2 iMac could be that machine if priced attractively.

But perhaps you're not going to be buying an eGamer Mac to play casual games.

So the we'll have to see how Apple follows up the 'Arcade' service and how it will address the 1 million iMacs per quarter market.

RDNA 1 will be a start. RDNA2 is where they get more serious.

We heard that eGamer rumour. £5k? Perhaps lost in translation.

WWDC. I expect Apple to follow up the ATV, Apple Arcade and reveal the new iMac.

Perhaps then matters will be clearer.

As soon as Mac goes ARM. Mac gets access to the iOS 1 billion user base market gaming market.

Osmosis. or planning. 'Mac' gaming is coming. Maybe just not in the Steve Jobs Mac vs Windows holy war that I and many would have wanted.

Azrael.

 

[sigamy]

There have been multiple posts in this thread about wanting a cheap tower (what was actually said was cheaper than the Mac Pro), as long as it is done right.

There have been multiple posts, going back to probably 2001, about wanting a cheap tower (xMac). It's not going to happen.

 

[DrRadon]

I think we'll get more power, more value and more design.

In that order. Please.

Azrael.

But how would they approach that?

Apple wants thinner. I cannot imagine them fattening up the iMac.
More power requires better cooling, so we are looking at the iMac Pro wich is not thinner, but looses the RAM door.
The 21.5 iMac already only runs on 8th Gen Intel, with the cheapest option being as old as "not changed since 2017" i believe. How do you push more space in that tiny machine without more real estate? More real estate on 24 Inch would mean we keep big bezels and ya´ll be stomping ya feet all angry.

Ya´ll are screaming for smaller Bezels and tell me that the actually computer would not get bigger with bigger screens. But it sort of has to get bigger somewhere unless a redesign means "we are getting the iMacPro layout and a slightly bigger screen".

I don´t feel like you could sell a 27 inch iMac without a RAM door IF the base model comes with only 8GB RAM. You literally would only sell BTO at that point. Looking at the most expensive 27 inch machine... how could that, in any way, be below 32GB unless every order would be BTO. Same for the SSD, you can't sell a 2800€ machine without a 1TB SSD.
But all of that only works with a upgraded iMacPro, because you would be taking away many of it's advantages.

I bet in the end it's still just a specs bump and we get a massive forum meltdown about a new iPad Air that allows use ofApple Pencil 2. ^^

 

[iPadified]

They're a 1 trillion company. Apple. Do your job and make the Mac desktops better performers and better value. And if a design is 'nice', that's a bonus. But it's not the cake.

Azrael.

iMac is iconic for its AIO design. As I said above if design is relegated to second place, Apple will loose lots of iMac customers. No chance that will happen. When I read your post and many others, it says "sell me a cheap tower" (not MP) as an iMac, even an iMac Pro, will not handle top of the line components required in this thread. Alternatively make the iMac thick as a brick and that is not going to happen. It would be better if Apple offloaded the iMac responsibilities to a minitower so the iMac can evolve being a screen with a hidden computer that so many like.

 

[Azrael9]

Word. iMac serves some specific use cases well. Gaming is not among them. Not sure why Apple would pursue a great gaming machine with AIO. I don’t think that’s where they are going.

...and yet Apple Arcade is available for Mac?

Sure, the eGamer is a 'odd' rumour. But in light of rounding out a machine for Macs with the above service in mind?

Any conventional iMac update with RDNA1 could be that machine. Even more so if they bring that to the 24 inch iMac. ie both 24 and 27 have an increased gpu capability. With some price trimming.

Sure, it's not going to go head to head with a 2080 Ti (over rated for its price...) but the 5700XT is a very respectable gaming performer as we head into the fall with RDNA2...

iMacs with RDNA1 is a step in the right direction. Take it from somebody with an iMac 2012 680MX gpu that fried playing an old 2004 game.

Azrael.
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There have been multiple posts, going back to probably 2001, about wanting a cheap tower (xMac). It's not going to happen.

The trash can wasn't cheap. The 'new' Mac Pro certainly isn't.

The direction seems pretty clear. Apple can make more money selling last year's components on the back of a 5k monitor.

Azrael.
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iMac is iconic for its AIO design. As I said above if design is relegated to second place, Apple will loose lots of iMac customers. No chance that will happen. When I read your post and many others, it says "sell me a cheap tower" (not MP) as an iMac, even an iMac Pro, will not handle top of the line components required in this thread. Alternatively make the iMac thick as a brick and that is not going to happen. It would be better if Apple offloaded the iMac responsibilities to a minitower so the iMac can evolve being a screen with a hidden computer that so many like.

It says 'wishing' for a rationally priced Mac Tower. Like they had with the 'iconic' Bauhaus design. But it seems even iconic designs whither and die if they don't. Evolve.

But in the likely absence of that?

An evolved or radical iMac design that can keep up with the increased demands of CPUs and GPUs for the 'premium' price Apple charges.

Not iStale. The design is old. Evolve it or scrap it and try again...with something new.

The current iMac is as thick as a brick with it's bulge at the back. Don't let those tapered edges fool us, eh?

Design is already relegated to 2nd place if Apple can't cool the current gpus and cpus.

They've already solved the problem with the iMac Pro without making it as 'thick as brick.'

Top of the line components. Apple doesn't not offer top of the line Nvidia components. They don't even offer a year old RDNA1 gpu. They have 3 year old Polaris kit.

Azrael.
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But how would they approach that?

That's their job. For which they are payed £1700-£3560 for every iMac sold.

The HP AiO has 8 cores, a 32 inch screen and an Nvidia (!) 2080 gpu.

Take away the iMac's 5k screen. And what do we have?

Poor power. Poor Value. And a design that can't even cope with that.

Azrael.
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But how would they approach that?

Apple wants thinner. I cannot imagine them fattening up the iMac.
More power requires better cooling, so we are looking at the iMac Pro wich is not thinner, but looses the RAM door.
The 21.5 iMac already only runs on 8th Gen Intel, with the cheapest option being as old as "not changed since 2017" i believe. How do you push more space in that tiny machine without more real estate? More real estate on 24 Inch would mean we keep big bezels and ya´ll be stomping ya feet all angry.

Ya´ll are screaming for smaller Bezels and tell me that the actually computer would not get bigger with bigger screens. But it sort of has to get bigger somewhere unless a redesign means "we are getting the iMacPro layout and a slightly bigger screen".

I don´t feel like you could sell a 27 inch iMac without a RAM door IF the base model comes with only 8GB RAM. You literally would only sell BTO at that point. Looking at the most expensive 27 inch machine... how could that, in any way, be below 32GB unless every order would be BTO. Same for the SSD, you can't sell a 2800€ machine without a 1TB SSD.
But all of that only works with a upgraded iMacPro, because you would be taking away many of it's advantages.

I bet in the end it's still just a specs bump and we get a massive forum meltdown about a new iPad Air that allows use ofApple Pencil 2. ^^

HP Desktop Computers - HP Store UK

Find the perfect HP® desktop for your needs at the HP® Store UK. Explore a wide selection of home & business desktops, from powerful ENVY models to gaming-ready OMEN machines.

store.hp.com

And this is HP.

Come on, Apple, where's your pride?

Azrael.

 

[CWallace]

Apple wants thinner. I cannot imagine them fattening up the iMac.

Steve and, especially, Jony wanted thinner. I think the current team is more pragmatic about these things.

No, we're not going back to the 2009-2011 thickness, but if they really are doing a full case re-design, then they will hopefully be taking into account the fact that Intel will be pumping out furnaces for the remainder of Apple's time with them and at least make some effort to accommodate that.

I don´t feel like you could sell a 27 inch iMac without a RAM door IF the base model comes with only 8GB RAM.

They do it with the 21.5" so I think they're ready and willing to do it with the 27", as well, on the bottom end. I would expect the 2TB FD model (the "Acceptable" model on the "Terrible / Bad / Acceptable" pre-config product matrix) would be bumped to 16GB and the price adjusted accordingly (maybe a $150 raise instead of the full $200 to encourage customers towards it).

...and yet Apple Arcade is available for Mac?

But offering games that are designed around AppleTV GPUs. If they actually move that to the A12, that will help things, but the focus will still be iOS GPUs that are not in the same league as even the mainstream GPUs in Macs, much less GPUs optimized for high-frame-rate 4K.

 

[dn325ci]

...and yet Apple Arcade is available for Mac?

Sure, the eGamer is a 'odd' rumour. But in light of rounding out a machine for Macs with the above service in mind?

Any conventional iMac update with RDNA1 could be that machine. Even more so if they bring that to the 24 inch iMac. ie both 24 and 27 have an increased gpu capability. With some price trimming.

Sure, it's not going to go head to head with a 2080 Ti (over rated for its price...) but the 5700XT is a very respectable gaming performer as we head into the fall with RDNA2...

iMacs with RDNA1 is a step in the right direction. Take it from somebody with an iMac 2012 680MX gpu that fried playing an old 2004 game.

Azrael.

Right. Apple Arcade is cross platform initiative for all devices, so it needs to be passable. An AIO will not be on the fore-front of gaming performance.

 

[pldelisle]

6 core is old hat. 8 core is now mainstream. 12 core is pushing on as the performance sweet spot. And for those that can pay double the price of the 12 core can get the 16 core AMD.

Cinebench renders still aren't 'instant.' GPUs can still 'barely' cope with gaming ray tracing. 8k camera footage for those 8k tvs. Gaming performance that can handle 4k with all the visual fidelities. What about opening 16 tabs in safari whilst doing Photoshop work, rendering video in the background? What about 300 audio tracks? 500? A 1000? (just how many audio filters do people need? Do we need that many tracks?) What about 100 Photoshop layers at 600dpi? Or using that 'big' brush in Photoshop on bill board posters? What about instant boot? What about file transfers you don't have to wait for?

How many things on a computer are 'instant' now? What about performance that can compensate for slovenly Mac OS updates?

Computers are far from being all they can be. There are always bottlenecks. People were asking what were we doing to do with all that cpu power when we were still slumming it on Hard drives (yes, iMac...and Fusion Drives...) and then SSD? BOOM. Warp speed.

What about better PCIE throughput? We could do with that doubling or quadling from where we are now.

You are asking for a whole bunch of innovation here.

I think the mainstream will never satisfy you. You seem to need pro stuff, like in the iMac Pro. HEDT is definitively the way you should go if I read through your lines.

But yes, I/O is I think the real bottleneck now. 10 gbps ethernet is becoming more and more mainstream in our homes, but internal I/O suffers deeply from that limited number of PCI-E lanes on CPUs. Both Intel and AMD mainstream are limited to 16 lanes to all PCi-Express on the motherboard, which is seriously a shame for 2020. Even Intel in the HEDT is a shame compared to the AMD architecture. But yes, chiplets allow more I/O than a monolithic architecture.

That Open GL to Metal deprecation and future? That was always going to hurt cutting the apron strings with developers who gave Mac half azzed ports.

But Metal is *freakinly* more powerful than OpenGL. It's only a matter of time and letting the libraries and Swift get mature before everybody jump in. They won't have choice anyway. And they made a good move to go with AMD. Their driver was OpenSource, they could modify it in a way to perfectly fit with the Metal library and accelerate every portion of the desktop environment through the GPU. Intel being the only other vendor and in full collaboration, it's also easy to deal with. Full control on the graphics software stack is mandatory for Apple to offer best performance possible out of a GPU. It's only sad for not supporting CUDA (and then virtually all machine learning libraries).

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Take away the iMac's 5k screen. And what do we have?

Poor power. Poor Value. And a design that can't even cope with that.

But that's going to be solved in two weeks buddy !

 

[askunk]

The direction seems pretty clear. Apple can make more money selling last year's components on the back of a 5k monitor.

I wouldn't be this negative: after all, Apple introduced the iMP with innovative video (the first to mount a Vega GPU, even before PCs) and it is progressing towards a better cooling (iMP, then the MP, and even the MBP have improved cooling, showing Apple engineers actually care a little bit). Given the range they were offering with the IMP (Vega 56/64), and the power constraints, they couldn't put more than a 48 in the March 2019 iMac.

I am hoping for them to adopt the full range of RDNA2 in the iMac/IMP line, but it could also end up with a refreshed RDNA1 in iMacs and RDNA2 in IMP. Either way, they have the chance to come out with new cards.

Apple is refusing to work with nVIDIA for their reciprocal addiction to close standards. AMD hasn't been able to get even close to nVIDIA levels. But if you put the situation into perspective, Apple has been offering the best GPUs they could. Pushing AMD even further with the Mac Pro DUO GPUs. Not enough, for sure, but it's still basically the best they could.

With this I don't want to take the defences of Apple. I am with all of you asking them to show some common sense and I have been disappointed many times by their hardware choices... but there is likewise hope that they will end up with a good product.

Peace

 

[FrankySavvy]

Personally I think what Apple have to do is pretty simple, reduce the bezels on the iMac along with putting in better speakers, a better camera and updated specs. Oh and maybe add the space grey option. I'm not asking Apple to redesign the wheel here, the iMac is iconic in it's shape, they don't need to change that, just update it a little (with reduced bezels).

I agree, bezel reduction is a must, the rest of the design is gorgeous. Updated specs obviously. Bonus would be a 1080p webcam, improved speakers, space grey option.

 

[DrRadon]

That's their job. For which they are payed £1700-£3560 for every iMac sold.

The HP AiO has 8 cores, a 32 inch screen and an Nvidia (!) 2080 gpu.

Take away the iMac's 5k screen. And what do we have?

Poor power. Poor Value. And a design that can't even cope with that.

Azrael.
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And this is HP.

Come on, Apple, where's your pride?

Azrael.

But we both know Apple traditional chose Design over Power and decently cheap components often enough.
Plus, that HP AiO looks like nothing Apple would ever build AND like something Apple build nine years ago.

The whole idea of the iMac we currently have is that you can't see it's thickness from almost any angle, it's actually quiet cool but obviusly very quickly disposed by the fact that you usualy look into the screen (an argument wich also works for the bezels btw. They don´t really matter, if at all they help separating the screens contend from its surroundings).

 

[Azrael9]

A welcome contribution, as always, CWallace.

Apple Arcade. Is just the beginning.

I'm sure 'more to follow' in Apple Arcade, ATV, 'Mac'.

Today is not Tomorrow. And in some areas we have to see where that puck is travelling.

Or at the least, ATV and iMac are in desperate need of updating...

...and IF we see the follow through on Arcade...will it be more of the same (sure, the emphasis has to be iPhone, iPad and ATV in that order. It's casual gaming. A massive 1 billion iOS device market.)

...but when Mac 'ARM' joins the party, we'll see the real revolution in 'Mac' gaming.

Swallowing the poision pill of deprecated (well, Open GL on Mac was a walking dead corpse anyhow...) Open GL and getting devs on board with 'Mac' Metal is a longer term thing.

Despite my severe criticisms of Apple's bean counter leadership...

They do some great things. Mac OS. Apple Arcade. iPad and Pencil (star trek tech'...). The iPhone is stunningly evolved bar the ugly notch. Final Cut Pro. Logic. The Mac Pro engineering is a wonder. (Crap pricing.)

Procreate an iOS exclusive...is an example of what the hardware can do. Affinity, were formerly Mac exclusive. Beautiful software. Gaming. I remember Bungie Marathon fondly.

We'll see if 'Mac' can get that 'this is our platform' vibe. Procreate is a good example of that on iOS. Final Cut on Mac. etc.

Apple Arcade. ATV. e Gamer Mac.

We need more evidence of Apple's commitment to gaming on Mac.

I remember thinking when Fortnite was previewed on Mac. 'Crap casual derived gaming experience....typical 2nd hand Mac gamer experience...'

Sure, what do I know.

Azrael.
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But we both know Apple traditional chose Design over Power and decently cheap components often enough.
Plus, that HP AiO looks like nothing Apple would ever build AND like something Apple build nine years ago.

The whole idea of the iMac we currently have is that you can't see it's thickness from almost any angle, it's actually quiet cool but obviusly very quickly disposed by the fact that you usualy look into the screen (an argument wich also works for the bezels btw. They don´t really matter, if at all they help separating the screens contend from its surroundings).

Of course.

But HP nailed them on value and specs. (and...you only look at the HP from the front...)

M$ nailed them on design. (and you look at that from every angle in a very obscene kind of way...)

'Hello...' Apple.

The ball is in their court.

Azrael.
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Here's what radical, sexy beast design looks like, Tim Apple.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

Why Metal is nice too is when Apple will switch to ARM in computers. Everything developed with Metal for macOS will continue to work perfectly after the switch. This should encourage developers to make the jump too.

 

[DrRadon]

I suppose that full touch like surface studio would raise some eyebrows. But honestly, i still think what ever we will get will look a lot like what we already have.

A Apple TV iMac pretty much is already possible with 27 inch 4k and wireless mouse/keyboard. ^^ If the 32inch version some people dream of would come true it even would be as big as my TV.
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Why Metal is nice too is when Apple will switch to ARM in computers. Everything developed with Metal for macOS will continue to work perfectly after the switch. This should encourage developers to make the jump too.

Metal is actually hilarious. When you go to the iMacs sales page it shows you F1 Racing 2017 as one of the example games. The other one is one of the Tomb Raider games i believe, that at the very least dos not scream "hello i am outdated three (by now probably four) years" at you in it's name already but is actually from 2015 (MacOS release 2018).

 

[carlos700]

I love love the design of the Surface Studio until it comes time to VESA mounting it. I think that requirement has everything stuck behind the display.

 

[Moonjumper]

There have been multiple posts, going back to probably 2001, about wanting a cheap tower (xMac). It's not going to happen.

I know, you appear to have missed the point of my post. I (and many others here) want a performant iMac because there is no tower. We wouldn't need that so desperately if there was a tower. The post I was replying to said we shouldn't look to the iMac for performance, and should just say we want a tower. I replied saying we had already said that.

 

[Azrael9]

Right. Apple Arcade is cross platform initiative for all devices, so it needs to be passable. An AIO will not be on the fore-front of gaming performance.

When Apple offered Mac Towers under Steve Jobs push for 'Mac' gaming to be the best in the world? There was a brief moment when that was 'true' or almost true...or wanting to be true.

Apple don't offer the Nvidia gpu, so there is no chance of Apple being at the forfront of gaming performance in Triple AAA PC GaMOAR terms. They also can't hack 'bang for buck' either. Something important to gamers on the 'dark' side.

Passable is where it's going to be. That's what 'casual' gaming is. More so than PS5 or PC Towers. It's a broader 'pick up and play' market. So that is probably a profitable route as opposed to selling 'console' hardware at a loss or PC towers on razor thin margins.

IF Apple does do an eGamer Mac it will likely be sold for a profit. Be 'mostly' good enough if not cutting edge (they aren't now and haven't been for a decade or two. Even the Mac Pro isn't cutting edge.)

But 1 million AiO units per quarter can be a better performer than it is now and 'more' capable of playing those triple AAA gamers at a HD to 2.5k level.

4k gaming isn't even mainstream on the PC now. Not everyone can splash out £1200 on 2080 Ti.

PS5(not shipping) and Big Navi (not shipping) will change that. And that augers well for future iMacs...whether Intel or Mac ARM based.

Whether the iMac is cutting edge or 'good enough' (something I don't think it is now...) it is still the closest machine they have to rounding out the top end of Apple Arcade gaming. We still don't have the full picture on that service. We're waiting on Apple's follow through on that one.

And Apple Arcade being passable is a good place to start. It is just the beginning. Not everything can be measured in triple AAA gaming terms. That isn't absolute. It's tiny compared to 1 billion iOS devices.

Azrael.
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I know, you appear to have missed the point of my post. I (and many others here) want a performant iMac because there is no tower. We wouldn't need that so desperately if there was a tower. The post I was replying to said we shouldn't look to the iMac for performance, and should just say we want a tower. I replied saying we had already said that.

Word. Spot on.

That's what I was saying. Certainly in lieu of an Apple Mac Tower...at a sane price.

Azrael.
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Why Metal is nice too is when Apple will switch to ARM in computers. Everything developed with Metal for macOS will continue to work perfectly after the switch. This should encourage developers to make the jump too.

Yes.

Some can *point the finger* at Mac gaming as it stands (and it's not in the best shape it could be...for well documented reasons....) But metal is for the future of Mac gaming and that probably means Mac ARM.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

Metal is actually hilarious. When you go to the iMacs sales page it shows you F1 Racing 2017 as one of the example games. The other one is one of the Tomb Raider games i believe, that at the very least dos not scream "hello i am outdated three (by now probably four) years" at you in it's name already but is actually from 2015.

But having tried the library, it actually works quite beautifully and is easy to work with. I think it's only because it would cost a sh*t load of money to develop a new gaming engine or to adapt one to Metal rendering. Making all this for such a small market isn't lucrative at all.

And the lib is so young that big changes are made every year at every release. It asks a lot more of work since every major version might have breaking changes. Letting it getting more mature is only rational at this point.