Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[Azrael9]

But having tried the library, it actually works quite beautifully and is easy to work with. I think it's only because it would cost a sh*t load of money to develop a new gaming engine or to adapt one to Metal rendering. Making all this for such a small market isn't lucrative at all.

I've been very impressed by the amplified performance Metal gives on eg. iPad hardware at the WWDC tech' demos of it.

It's only going to get better. Metal is a young API.

iPhone and iPad as mobile devices have leading edge gpu performance. And that's Metal. That's A12z. With even more impressive cpus on the way...

That augurs well for any Mac ARM transition. We're only a year away from 'Mac' joining the 'party.'

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

I've been very impressed by the amplified performance Metal gives on eg. iPad hardware at the WWDC tech' demos of it.

It's only going to get better. Metal is a young API.

iPhone and iPad as mobile devices have leading edge gpu performance. And that's Metal. That's A12z. With even more impressive cpus on the way...

That augurs well for any Mac ARM transition. We're only a year away from 'Mac' joining the 'party.'

Azrael.

So you agree that we will get only a specs bump now and the redesign comes when everything changes with ARM next year? xD

 

[Azrael9]

So you agree that (Azrael insert: 'No.') we will get only a specs bump now and the redesign comes when everything changes with ARM next year? xD

No.

The iMac is going to get a design that blows up the current design like the Mac Pro blew up the Trash Can. This year. WWDC 2020. 'Hello.'

I feel that's what the design language of XDR and the Mac Pro implied. And that's why we heard about the eGamer Mac rumour in Dec'. The 23 incher. They're probably all the same thing. A much improved design and spec list to make the iMac a more compelling value and power.performance option. Design should be a platform to express that.

When the Macbook and iMac 'Air' join the Mac ARM party next year? The Mac ARM cpu will go into the 'new' iMac case released this WWDC. They still need to sell 5 million more iMacs in the next year.

Any spec bump would have been released by now with the caveat of the supply of Intel CPUs.

The silence is deafening. And that's good news.

Apple Arcade is the beginning of Mac gaming. The Mac ARM transition is the beginning of a revolution in Mac gaming.

Azrael.

 

[Voyageur]

Can you please tell me what are you guys talking about? I'm a bit lost.
Why is PCIE4 or 5 important and what is limitation in TB3? You can already connect an external screen and it can drive XDR so what is this "fuss" about the PCIE and TB, please?

Thank you so much. So yeah, its essentially bandwidth on those protocols. I was just confused why you guys talked a lot about eGPU and I guess that is what derailed me.

So basically, if one doesn't care about eGPU then the bandwidth we get now should be sufficient for RDNA2 (if we are lucky) and anything else? Or we will still get slow ins?

I apologize that I disappeared for a long time without answering the question - I’m stuck on a Mac Pro forum thread. When you go there, you feel like you got on board to Major Tom

The problems of TB3 and PCI-e 3 as such do not exist right now, but this is only today. If you buy a hypothetical iMac 2020 today, then in the future you will encounter the problem of expanding power by eGPU through TB3. TB3 was a great solution at its launch, it is a good solution today. But in a few years, the capacities of the built-in GPU accelerators have improved well and in order to get a noticeable increase even more, you need to install much more powerful videocards in the eGPU box. Here you will encounter the problem of insufficient TB3 bandwidth.

I will give a distant, not a direct example, but the point is that your conditional Vega 56, which is built into the iMac, will be more productive than Vega 64, which is connected via eGPU. This is because:
1. The video card soldered into the motherboard has a higher communication speed than TB3
2. Your information goes a double way: from the processor to the eGPU and back to the built-in monitor (unless you use an external monitor, this is a little easier)

Therefore, I said earlier that the farther the time goes, the less sense exists in eGPU if they are used on initially powerful iMac configurations. The next generation TB with a doubled data rate could solve this problem, but the next 4th generation of Thunderbolt is not going to become faster, so we will have to wait for the 5th, which will probably not be very soon.

The same problem with PCI-e 4. It is already in operation today and I think that most of the new videcards will switch to it very quickly. Therefore, the PCI-E 4 speed potential will be even more difficult to transmit via TB3.

A small remark. The problem with PCI-e now is not so serious for the reason that the current even powerful GPUs still have not run into the limitations of PCI-e 3.

 

[pldelisle]

A small remark. The problem with PCI-e now is not so serious for the reason that the current even powerful GPUs still have not run into the limitations of PCI-e 3.

I can make it bleed. Trust me. Haha.

 

[Homy]

Buy Surface Studio 2+ - See Desktop Specs, Price, Screen Size | Microsoft Store

Buy the Surface Studio 2+ from Microsoft Store. This striking 28" touchscreen, that transitions from desktop to canvas, features the 11th Gen Intel® Core™ H-series processor and NVIDIA GeForce RTX 3060 Laptop GPU. Free standard shipping. Free returns.

www.microsoft.com

View attachment 921518

Here's what radical, sexy beast design looks like, Tim Apple.

Azrael.

Surface Studio has always been overpriced with crappy spec. It makes even iMac look great. For the same price of Studio 2 with 7th gen Quad-core 8-thread i7-7820HQ (2.9-3.9GHz, 8 MB Cache) and 4-year-old GTX 1060 6 GB you can get an iMac with 9th gen 8-core 16-thread i9-9900K (3.6-5.0GHz, 16 MB Cache) and 1-year-old Vega 48 8 GB.

And people say Apple always puts old hardware in their computers...

 

[spidertaker23]

No.

The iMac is going to get a design that blows up the current design like the Mac Pro blew up the Trash Can. This year. WWDC 2020. 'Hello.'

I feel that's what the design language of XDR and the Mac Pro implied. And that's why we heard about the eGamer Mac rumour in Dec'. The 23 incher. They're probably all the same thing. A much improved design and spec list to make the iMac a more compelling value and power.performance option. Design should be a platform to express that.

When the Macbook and iMac 'Air' join the Mac ARM party next year? The Mac ARM cpu will go into the 'new' iMac case released this WWDC. They still need to sell 5 million more iMacs in the next year.

Any spec bump would have been released by now with the caveat of the supply of Intel CPUs.

The silence is deafening. And that's good news.

Apple Arcade is the beginning of Mac gaming. The Mac ARM transition is the beginning of a revolution in Mac gaming.

Azrael.

God I hope you are right! Looking forward to WWDC.

 

[Azrael9]

Surface Studio has always been overpriced with crappy spec. It makes even iMac look great. For the same price of Studio 2 with 7th gen Quad-core 8-thread i7-7820HQ (2.9-3.9GHz, 8 MB Cache) and 4-year-old GTX 1060 6 GB you can get an iMac with 9th gen 8-core 16-thread i9-9900K (3.6-5.0GHz, 16 MB Cache) and 1-year-old Vega 48 8 GB.

And people say Apple always put old hardware in their computers...

We know what the Surface Studio is and isn't.

Ergo.

The HP AiO has the iMac beaten on specs.

The Surface Studio has the iMac beaten on design.

The fact that the iMac has better specs than the Surface Studio is a pyrrhic victory in 2020. It's just comparing one set of ancient components with another.

But design? DESIGN? The Studio is light years ahead of the iStale and out dated 'classic' and 'iconic' design of the iMac.

(...and Polaris is three years old tech? The Vega 48 was dated when 1st Apple called the 2019 iMac 'new'...derived and 'cut down' from a gpu that 1st appeared in the iMac Pro in 2017?)

Azrael.

 

[dn325ci]

No.

The iMac is going to get a design that blows up the current design like the Mac Pro blew up the Trash Can. This year. WWDC 2020. 'Hello.'

I feel that's what the design language of XDR and the Mac Pro implied. And that's why we heard about the eGamer Mac rumour in Dec'. The 23 incher. They're probably all the same thing. A much improved design and spec list to make the iMac a more compelling value and power.performance option. Design should be a platform to express that.

When the Macbook and iMac 'Air' join the Mac ARM party next year? The Mac ARM cpu will go into the 'new' iMac case released this WWDC. They still need to sell 5 million more iMacs in the next year.

Any spec bump would have been released by now with the caveat of the supply of Intel CPUs.

The silence is deafening. And that's good news.

Apple Arcade is the beginning of Mac gaming. The Mac ARM transition is the beginning of a revolution in Mac gaming.

Azrael.

Nailed it. What he said.

 

[Homy]

We know what the Surface Studio is and isn't.

Ergo.

The HP AiO has the iMac beaten on specs.

The Surface Studio has the iMac beaten on design.

The fact that the iMac has better specs than the Surface Studio is a pyrrhic victory in 2020. It's just comparing one set of ancient components with another.

But design? DESIGN? The Studio is light years ahead of the iStale and out dated 'classic' and 'iconic' design of the iMac.

(...and Polaris is three years old tech? The Vega 48 was dated when 1st Apple called the 2019 iMac 'new'...derived and 'cut down' from a gpu that 1st appeared in the iMac Pro in 2017?)

Azrael.

Well, the HP Envy is 32", like a TV, so it's obvious that it can have a hotter RTX 2080. Otherwise it doesn't have anything that's better than iMac and I personally wouldn't want a large TV on my desk. If it beats iMac on anything it's the price.

The Surface Studio isn't that good looking either. It looks like a Mac Mini attached to a monitor but I guess design is a subjective matter. I agree though that Apple can do better with the design and functionality of iMac.

About the Vega 48 vs GTX 1060, my point was that Vega is a better card and performs better in almost everything.

 

[raftman]

I just hope ARM doesn’t bring IOS thinking to Mac, like a “walled garden” App Store. Also I really hope it doesn’t bring touchscreen to the Mac.

 

[Azrael9]

But having tried the library, it actually works quite beautifully and is easy to work with. I think it's only because it would cost a sh*t load of money to develop a new gaming engine or to adapt one to Metal rendering. Making all this for such a small market isn't lucrative at all.

And the lib is so young that big changes are made every year at every release. It asks a lot more of work since every major version might have breaking changes. Letting it getting more mature is only rational at this point.

Do you see the potential for Metal's performance to increase as it matures? I think Metal has had a very impressive debut with iPhone and iPad and has a phenominal amount of developers on board.

Apple were always going to deprecate Open GL. I noticed the up tick in WoW performance when I went from GL to Metal. I didn't miss Open GL so much. It's old. Apple didn't update it for Macs in years. It's really part of Apple's past.

Direct X has been developed by M$ for a long time. Metal is still very young but it gives Apple more control over quality on its platforms rather than middleware 2nd rate ports from developers who don't think the Mac is worth their time.

But I can see Apple catching up. 1 billion plus devices says it's worth that investment. More so when Mac ARM joins the party with 'serious' work creative machines.

Just debuting the Metal API on iOS than Mac OS gave the both platforms a massive lift. The impact on the latter is still yet to come.

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

I feel that's what the design language of XDR and the Mac Pro implied.

The only time the "pro" lineup of computers crossed over with normal iMac Desktop Design was the iMacPro. We never seen that chesegrader style at anything near the consumer level.
I can bite and bring up once again that maybe the iMac lineup should intersect with pro at a lower price point. But really, i still feel a lot of "setting up for disappointment". i can't see apple bring design they don´t even sell the monitor for under 5000€ be in a full computer that costs less or even only half.

 

[Azrael9]

Well, the HP Envy is 32", like a TV, so it's obvious that it can have a hotter RTX 2080. Otherwise it doesn't have anything that's better than iMac and I personally wouldn't want a large TV on my desk. If it beats iMac on anything it's the price.

The Surface Studio isn't that good looking either. It looks like a Mac Mini attached to a monitor but I guess design is a subjective matter. I agree though that Apple can do better with the design and functionality of iMac.

About the Vega 48 vs GTX 1060, my point was that Vega is a better card and performs better in almost everything.

Here's a review of the HP AiO.

Guys never want a smaller one... (So, obviously the 32 incher is preferable. Other than the 5k resolution which is better in resolution and if it wins in anything, it's that. But some prefer eg. 4k at 32 inches. I'd call that a tie.)

I wouldn't say 32 inches is a large tv. I would say 50 inches is a large tv. 32 inches is quite modest for a TV these days. Though there's nothing wrong with average size, folks, right?

The Surface Studio has aesthetics that make the iMac look like where it is. Ten years ago. Form and function? It will hopefully embarass Apple to do better.

Take away the iMac's redeeming feature, the 5k display. And the HP's 4k 32 inch displays.

The HP has more cores, more ram more gpu. More value. More spec. And word from the above review? New ten core options...(though I couldn't find it on the UK HP store...)

The HP has the 2080 Nvidia as standard with it's price. The comparative iMac. You're making choices vs ...do I go for the 8 core cpu for the Vega 48... Nvidia 2080 vs the Vega 48? Shame Apple can't give us the choice and allow us to decide. The 2080 is an impressive performer.

Unless you pay the £600 extra to make them 'equal.'

Azrael.
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I just hope ARM doesn’t bring IOS thinking to Mac, like a “walled garden” App Store. Also I really hope it doesn’t bring touchscreen to the Mac.

With iPad side car...that day is coming closer.

Azrael.

 

[Moonjumper]

But having tried the library, it actually works quite beautifully and is easy to work with. I think it's only because it would cost a sh*t load of money to develop a new gaming engine or to adapt one to Metal rendering. Making all this for such a small market isn't lucrative at all.

And the lib is so young that big changes are made every year at every release. It asks a lot more of work since every major version might have breaking changes. Letting it getting more mature is only rational at this point.

Just one little point here. Unity, the most popular game engine, supports Metal.

 

[pldelisle]

Do you see the potential for Metal's performance to increase as it matures? I think Metal has had a very impressive debut with iPhone and iPad and has a phenominal amount of developers on board.

Apple were always going to deprecate Open GL. I noticed the up tick in WoW performance when I went from GL to Metal. I didn't miss Open GL so much. It's old. Apple didn't update it for Macs in years. It's really part of Apple's past.

Direct X has been developed by M$ for a long time. Metal is still very young but it gives Apple more control over quality on its platforms rather than middleware 2nd rate ports from developers who don't think the Mac is worth their time.

But I can see Apple catching up. 1 billion plus devices says it's worth that investment. More so when Mac ARM joins the party with 'serious' work creative machines.

Just debuting the Metal API on iOS than Mac OS gave the both platforms a massive lift. The impact on the latter is still yet to come.

Azrael.

Totally agree. A lot of work to do in macOS regarding Metal. It's more used on iOS. I see the potential, absolutely. I'm in medical imaging and having visualization software under Metal instead of archaic OpenGL would be beneficial.

 

[Azrael9]

Totally agree. A lot of work to do in macOS regarding Metal. It's more used on iOS. I see the potential, absolutely. I'm in medical imaging and having visualization software under Metal instead of archaic OpenGL would be beneficial.

Medical Imaging? That's interesting.

One medical person I met (through my the old 2004 game I play) works in a lab. Testing work etc.

Would you say, for your kind of work...in medical imaging that a 6k iMac would be a big step forwards? In terms of finess of imaging. I seem to recall IBM a few years back had high dpi monitors in for that kind of market. And 8k monitors are on the horizon but obviously not imminently for PC or Mac just yet. It will probably happen in TVs before computer monitors, maybe. So retina must be a decent thing for Medical imaging finess to get a sharp level of detail of what you're looking at in that context.

But yes, I see Metal as loaded with potential. This is how Apple can really put the boot into the competition. As they are in Phones and Pads. Controlling the Metal API, X-Code, A12X *(Apple CPU/GPU) stack shows a heavenly preview of what Mac ARM could bring to the Mac table. I've just mouth agog with each A chip iteration and the X version for iPads. People dismiss the iPad for creativity but Procreate, Affinities Apps and Adobe and others. They're obviously there because the performance is there and the $$$ is. Certainly. That 'stack' synergy probably allows the iPhone and iPad to perform in an optimised way to perform way above it's weight class. I think as soon as we get the Mac ARM we're going to be 'surprised' what an unleashed 'A' chip can do. In that regard...I can't wait to see A14X for iPad...and the Mac ARM version of that?

Azrael.
[automerge]1591292438[/automerge]

Just one little point here. Unity, the most popular game engine, supports Metal.

That's a good catch. We can't overlook the importance of things like that.

The Mac installed base is 100 million and counting and adding 20 million a year. If Apple goes Mac ARM for that 'form factor' of a much larger screen desktop AIO with laptop sized screen sizes...that's a drop in the ocean in iOS terms but 20 million a year over 5 years? 100 million more 'Mac' users on 'ARM' in a short (relatively) amount of time. That's about as many PS5s Sony expects to sell. Add those 100 million more 'Mac' users to iOS is money devs can't walk away from. It makes the 'Mac' user base on Mac ARM 100 million over five years. On Mac ARM machines which will perform at least or better than the Macs we have to do. In fact, I expect Mac ARM to buy Intel in the mainstream sense. As long as Apple keeps good developer relations...and opens the door and supports them through Apple Arcade. It will come. There's $$$ in that market.

iPhones....it's just...er...millions and millions and millions...and iPads? Millions. Millions. Millions.

That's a big metal universe and any game engine that supports it? There's $$$ there if you make yourself known on the 'Mac'/iOS platform.

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

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Leaked images from the production line.

 

[Homy]

Here's a review of the HP AiO.

Well, that's his opinion. If HP Envy was the iMac killer all of us had already switched and this thread wouldn't exist.

I didn't see any comparative benchmarks between HP and iMac in his review when I scrolled through. I get your point but I meant that if you don't look at the price iMac has a better CPU option than HP in your original link. i9-9900K is better than i7-9700. I also said that iMac can't have better but hotter GPUs because of its design.

In the review from yesterday HP seems to have updated the CPUs to 10th gen so it changes the situation but Apple is also about to update iMac, hopefully. Neither can I find the option for choosing CPU and GPU on the Swedish HP store. The best HP Envy is with i7-9700 and GTX 2060.
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[automerge]1591294337[/automerge]
Leaked images from the production line.

IS IT TRUE? We're getting a pet turtle with every new iMac? That's great.

 

[pldelisle]

Medical Imaging? That's interesting.

One medical person I met (through my the old 2004 game I play) works in a lab. Testing work etc.

Would you say, for your kind of work...in medical imaging that a 6k iMac would be a big step forwards? In terms of finess of imaging. I seem to recall IBM a few years back had high dpi monitors in for that kind of market. And 8k monitors are on the horizon but obviously not imminently for PC or Mac just yet. It will probably happen in TVs before computer monitors, maybe. So retina must be a decent thing for Medical imaging finess to get a sharp level of detail of what you're looking at in that context.

But yes, I see Metal as loaded with potential. This is how Apple can really put the boot into the competition. As they are in Phones and Pads. Controlling the Metal API, X-Code, A12X *(Apple CPU/GPU) stack shows a heavenly preview of what Mac ARM could bring to the Mac table. I've just mouth agog with each A chip iteration and the X version for iPads. People dismiss the iPad for creativity but Procreate, Affinities Apps and Adobe and others. They're obviously there because the performance is there and the $$$ is. Certainly. That 'stack' synergy probably allows the iPhone and iPad to perform in an optimised way to perform way above it's weight class. I think as soon as we get the Mac ARM we're going to be 'surprised' what an unleashed 'A' chip can do. In that regard...I can't wait to see A14X for iPad...and the Mac ARM version of that?

Azrael.

I'm in machine learning but consult images regularly. The image resolution in medical imaging is already sh*tty (usually 1mm^3 voxel, leading to images of 256x256x256 resolution), a 6K iMac wouldn't be that much helping. It might look better, but for my purpose this is useless. I think the image resolution must be way, way better first to fully exploit an higher monitor resolution. It's coming with more advanced scanner with higher magnetic field (those 7 Tesla for example).

 

[DrRadon]

IS IT TRUE? We're getting a pet turtle with every new iMac? That's great.

It's a very unclear picture, taken and handed to me under great risk. I suppose all we can do is interpret the f out of it for at least the weekend.

 

[BlueTide]

I don´t feel like you could sell a 27 inch iMac without a RAM door IF the base model comes with only 8GB RAM. You literally would only sell BTO at that point. Looking at the most expensive 27 inch machine... how could that, in any way, be below 32GB unless every order would be BTO. Same for the SSD, you can't sell a 2800€ machine without a 1TB SSD.

Apple: "Hold my beer." 🍺

 

[sublunar]

Apple wants thinner. I cannot imagine them fattening up the iMac.
More power requires better cooling, so we are looking at the iMac Pro wich is not thinner, but looses the RAM door.
The 21.5 iMac already only runs on 8th Gen Intel, with the cheapest option being as old as "not changed since 2017" i believe. How do you push more space in that tiny machine without more real estate? More real estate on 24 Inch would mean we keep big bezels and ya´ll be stomping ya feet all angry.

Ya´ll are screaming for smaller Bezels and tell me that the actually computer would not get bigger with bigger screens. But it sort of has to get bigger somewhere unless a redesign means "we are getting the iMacPro layout and a slightly bigger screen".

I don´t feel like you could sell a 27 inch iMac without a RAM door IF the base model comes with only 8GB RAM. You literally would only sell BTO at that point. Looking at the most expensive 27 inch machine... how could that, in any way, be below 32GB unless every order would be BTO. Same for the SSD, you can't sell a 2800€ machine without a 1TB SSD.
But all of that only works with a upgraded iMacPro, because you would be taking away many of it's advantages.

I bet in the end it's still just a specs bump and we get a massive forum meltdown about a new iPad Air that allows use ofApple Pencil 2. ^^

We also forget the fact that, for the 21.5" iMac, there's no 'Pro' model with superior cooling to immediately point the way forward. If it's truly a dead end model with a 23" on the horizon there's no need for a redesign and therefore a high chance it's going for the basic spec bump.

As it's a device with locked away RAM it makes sense that a spec bump leaves the storage generally unchanged but instead doubles the base RAM to 16Gb. Apple could also bump the CPU to 9th generation across the board to make it stand out as a genuine 2020 refresh and perhaps restore 1Tb Fusion drives back to include 128Gb of SSD again to effectively improve performance.

Similarly with the 27" iMac, any move to include the iMac Pro cooling system and lock away the RAM must include 16Gb of RAM as baseline - these machines will be kept for years and soon 8Gb will be unusable.

 

[pldelisle]

MacBook Pro 16 is sold with 16 GB as base configuration. I personally don't see any reason why the 2020 iMac 27" would be shipped with only 8 GB of RAM.

 

[sublunar]

MacBook Pro 16 is sold with 16 GB as base configuration. I personally don't see any reason why the 2020 iMac 27" would be shipped with only 8 GB of RAM.

To hit a price point?