Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[Homy]

So true. Nothing new or insightful. What was I thinking?

mindquest: I hope to be like you when I grow up.

I appreciate the input and shared insight that ALL of you post on here. (That's why I spend time on this forum.) I'd like to think you do, too. Who knows - maybe I'm the only one.

But in the meantime, I and those of us that don't have endless amounts of time on our hands to watch the entire WWDC and every other internet post and video on what Apple has in store for us with AS might be thankful that Homy posted the video. It was one-stop shopping of information for us - even if a bit fanboy-ish. And for those of us that might not have totally understood the difference between run-of-the-mill ARM and the promised Apple Silicon platform, it was insightful.

Exactly my thought! You're welcome. Not everybody here is on the same high technical level as mindquest or has the time to dig into the subject. It's unnecessary to be negative about someone appreciating a video. Maybe mindquest was hoping for something new in the video and got upset for wasting his/her time but that's the risk with every video on the internet. I myself thought Apple was licensing the whole CPU architecture from ARM, not just the instructions.

 

[CWallace]

While I intend to wait to see what Apple Silicon brings to the table before I replace my 2017 iMac 5K, I am interested in seeing what the next Intel model looks like and brings to the table.

 

[Freida]

2017 is still ok machine. You can easily wait

While I intend to wait to see what Apple Silicon brings to the table before I replace my 2017 iMac 5K, I am interested in seeing what the next Intel model looks like and brings to the table.

 

[CWallace]

2017 is still ok machine. You can easily wait

Yup. I have the i7, 32GB of RAM, a 1TB SSD and the 580X so I am certainly not hurting for capability and performance. If anything, I want to downgrade my CPU from an i7 to an i5 since I don't need the power and would rather not have the heat, but I tend to not push my machine so the fans stay generally under 1500RPM so I don't hear them.

 

[krell100]

I'm still on a 6,1 MacPro. I've decided to hold and see what Apple brings to the table with Apple Silicon over the next 6-18 months before getting a new machine. I think they'll do the higher level products last in terms of transition so its going to be end 2021 before we see high-end iMacs with AS chips and architecture. This is fine though as it will take a good 12+ months to see apps and plugins move across anyway.

 

[iPadified]

Well argued and highlighting the key which are the coprocessors in the SoC. It is interesting that the Intel/AMD crowd actually is nearly silent in this thread and other. I probably need to look in the Mac Pro forum to find some resistance. Before WWDC there was lots of talk about ARM not be able to scale etc. Today silence. As he point out, the CPU is only a small part of the SoC that makes iOS devices fly. Hardware accelerated ray tracing would be interesting addition to the coprocessor options.

We therefore see an offload of task from general purpose CPU and GPU to specialised silicon with resulting increase in performance per watt. I cannot find it now unfortunately, but I saw a video once of a hardware ray tracer that draw 10W and did the same job as a NVIDIA 250W card and thought - this is the future.

 

[krazzix]

We therefore see an offload of task from general purpose CPU and GPU to specialised silicon with resulting increase in performance per watt. I cannot find it now unfortunately, but I saw a video once of a hardware ray tracer that draw 10W and did the same job as a NVIDIA 250W card and thought - this is the future.

This one?

 

[iPadified]

This one?

Thank you, interesting video bit it is not the same. The video I saw was much more lab setting with a naked card connected to a PC and I do not remember the renderer but blender cycles rings a bell. Conclusion is the same though - dedicated silicon hardware is just more power efficient. Why use 250W GPGPU on a task requiring 10W with a dedicated chip?

We have some very interesting times ahead of us and it wil not be easier to buy high end computers as we need to pick and chose between co processors. PC will need to follow. The reason GPU raytracing has been so popular is because of the price/performance ratio (at least for the gamers cards) is better than CPU renders. Power usage has however soared far beyond CPU.

If Apple play well in this field, they can easily bring the interest of 3D modelling and ray tracing to MacOS, which is creative art and usually a strong point of Apple, just because they can build cost efficient hardware or just top performing hardware that can be cooled without fuzz. Octane has now a "iPad/iPhone" renderer. Yeah, they also now have a render for MacOS on AS by default. I never understood why Octane developed for iPhone/iPad but they were really developing for MacOS on AS which makes excellent sense.

 

[Azrael9]

thankful that Homy posted the video. It was one-stop shopping of information for us - even if a bit fanboy-ish. And for those of us that might not have totally understood the difference between run-of-the-mill ARM and the promised Apple Silicon platform, it was insightful.

Rene did a good job of articulating that it won't just be about raw power. (And, ofc he's a 'Mac Head'. Why shouldn't this be exciting? Or he or us be excited? This is the most significant seismic event since Jobs took Mac from 9 to 10.) There will be that, ofc. But the one-two punch of custom software and hardware tuned for the user experience can be more efficient than just throwing more ram or generic cores at it like their competitors do in the phone market.

And the strategy has worked in phones and pads where Apple have blown....away the competition. This is 'our' evidence that Apple can develop world class cpus and gpus in the markets where it's really hard to do this. (Note the absence of Intel, NV, AMD and others in phones...)

Take that and map it (or Mac it...) onto the computer market (I suppose the phone and pad market really is just a computer market) and the competition like Dell, HP, Intel won't have the entire stack to compete effectively against Apple. And even if they do adopt 'run of the mill' ARM. Apple have custom designs that can be tuned to the software. Efficiency of performance and power. Apple have built up that expertise and winning lead. iPhone provides the £££ so this R&D was made possible for the iPad...and now the AS Mac. Dell, HP etc don't have a £££ cash cow in their stable to leverage for custom cpu/gpu development.

'Promise' (especially distant vapourware...) must be backed up by delivery. And we're still waiting for even a substantial release of any kind this year, let alone the Intel iMac.

Azrael.
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This one?

Great video. Power. Performance. Efficiency.

A mid range mobile gpu burying the 980Ti in a Ray Trace render by a factor of '5!'

Sure, Nv' has developed it's own ray tracing since then.

My point?

The question many have been asking is. How is Apple's mobile gpu going to match Nv's big honkin' gpu... (It's 'impossible' etc...)

Watch the video and find out.

The elephant in the room is that Intel and Nvidia haven't had that much competition over the last ten years. Just a cash strapped company in the form of AMD. So that's how a (at the time?) £450 980 Ti can be blown away in Ray Tracing with a (then) up and coming and hungry company like Imagination.

And yes. I'm more impressed with this 'older' example of Ray Tracing (from former partners, Imagination...) than AMD's Ray Tracing 'robot' demo. I was getting real excited about this Imagination demo' and then the Apple 'spat' with Imagination happened. Shame. Great supplier who really gave the iPhone an edge. (Ofc. Apple now wants total control over their destiny with all the cost savings implied.)

Azrael.
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DigitalStorm lists Intel Core i9-10850K for around 450 USD - VideoCardz.com

It appears that another 10-core Intel processor is coming very soon. Intel Core i9-10850K listed by DigitalStorm Around two weeks ago we covered a leak from Geekbench, where the first trace of yet unannounced Core i9 processor has been discovered. At the time it was not clear if the Core...

videocardz.com

What have we here...

Around two weeks ago we covered a leak from Geekbench, where the first trace of yet unannounced Core i9 processor has been discovered. At the time it was not clear if the Core i9-10850K processor could really happen, but it appears that DigitalStorm has confirmed the new 10-core model.

$450. 10 cores.

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

DigitalStorm lists Intel Core i9-10850K for around 450 USD - VideoCardz.com

It appears that another 10-core Intel processor is coming very soon. Intel Core i9-10850K listed by DigitalStorm Around two weeks ago we covered a leak from Geekbench, where the first trace of yet unannounced Core i9 processor has been discovered. At the time it was not clear if the Core...

videocardz.com

What have we here...

$450. 10 cores.

Azrael.

Estimated Ship Date: 6 Weeks
Sort of fits the September 2ed date for intels presentation. (6 1/2 weeks)

 

[iPadified]

The elephant in the room is that Intel and Nvidia haven't had that much competition over the last ten years. Just a cash strapped company in the form of AMD. So that's how a (at the time?) £450 980 Ti can be blown away in Ray Tracing with a (then) up and coming and hungry company like Imagination.

Well, AMD belongs to the same old paradigm so no real competition there either. Does the 10850k have lower TDP and the same as the rumoured 95W 10910?

 

[Azrael9]

Thank you, interesting video bit it is not the same. The video I saw was much more lab setting with a naked card connected to a PC and I do not remember the renderer but blender cycles rings a bell. Conclusion is the same though - dedicated silicon hardware is just more power efficient. Why use 250W GPGPU on a task requiring 10W with a dedicated chip?

We have some very interesting times ahead of us and it wil not be easier to buy high end computers as we need to pick and chose between co processors. PC will need to follow. The reason GPU raytracing has been so popular is because of the price/performance ratio (at least for the gamers cards) is better than CPU renders. Power usage has however soared far beyond CPU.

If Apple play well in this field, they can easily bring the interest of 3D modelling and ray tracing to MacOS, which is creative art and usually a strong point of Apple, just because they can build cost efficient hardware or just top performing hardware that can be cooled without fuzz. Octane has now a "iPad/iPhone" renderer. Yeah, they also now have a render for MacOS on AS by default. I never understood why Octane developed for iPhone/iPad but they were really developing for MacOS on AS which makes excellent sense.

Very good post.

"If Apple play well in this field, they can easily bring the interest of 3D modelling and ray tracing to MacOS, which is creative art and usually a strong point of Apple,"

As you say.

Azrael.
[automerge]1594980371[/automerge]

Estimated Ship Date: 6 Weeks
Sort of fits the September 2ed date for intels presentation. (6 1/2 weeks)

Are the planets aligning for an iMac release?

Azrael.
[automerge]1594980983[/automerge]

Well argued and highlighting the key which are the coprocessors in the SoC. It is interesting that the Intel/AMD crowd actually is nearly silent in this thread and other. I probably need to look in the Mac Pro forum to find some resistance. Before WWDC there was lots of talk about ARM not be able to scale etc. Today silence. As he point out, the CPU is only a small part of the SoC that makes iOS devices fly. Hardware accelerated ray tracing would be interesting addition to the coprocessor options.

We therefore see an offload of task from general purpose CPU and GPU to specialised silicon with resulting increase in performance per watt. I cannot find it now unfortunately, but I saw a video once of a hardware ray tracer that draw 10W and did the same job as a NVIDIA 250W card and thought - this is the future.

Another good post.

The exciting Imagination video. Yes. Way before the PC tower market got ray tracing.

Nv/AMD are only really just getting Ray Tracing. And to have Apple AS GPU come along and put a boot into their gpu nads with this level of ray tracing performance would hurt. In the video, the 980Ti is out performed on a gpu render in Blender(?) by a factor of 5:1. 55 scans (was it?) vs the 5 for the 980Ti.

Ray Tracing is about the toughest thing you can do in real time. And here we have the mid range 'phone' gpu slapping around a 'big honking' 980 Ti. (The then flagship Nv' gpu?) It's a great example of how a tuned SoC can 'turn over' conventional performance. And thinking.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Yup. I have the i7, 32GB of RAM, a 1TB SSD and the 580X so I am certainly not hurting for capability and performance. If anything, I want to downgrade my CPU from an i7 to an i5 since I don't need the power and would rather not have the heat, but I tend to not push my machine so the fans stay generally under 1500RPM so I don't hear them.

Wise words.

You don't want to end up with a fried gpu... (but that isn't a ringing endorsement of an iMac that got pushed for 1 year and fried in its own hardware running a 2004 game.)

Hoping for far better cooling in the next iMac. Maybe I want to do gpu rending...or play the odd game. The iMac should be able to cope without hair dryers and a melt down.

In that regard, the move to AS can't come soon enough.

Azrael.
[automerge]1594981554[/automerge]

Exactly my thought! You're welcome. Not everybody here is on the same high technical level as mindquest or has the time to dig into the subject. It's unnecessary to be negative about someone appreciating a video. Maybe mindquest was hoping for something new in the video and got upset for wasting his/her time but that's the risk with every video on the internet. I myself thought Apple was licensing the whole CPU architecture from ARM, not just the instructions.

Well said. AS is a cause for celebration (and PS bake offs and baiting the evil horde of Wintel fanboys...) Mac fans should be very excited. Rene did a good job of articulating what this move by Apple is all about.

Apple's cpu chief and Tim Cook and Craig Fed' were quite clear. The move is about products (and £££) and Power and Performance. And the greater efficiency of those to create custom user experience. See: WWDC2020 demos. (And sure, like doubting Thomas...we all want to feel the love for ourself...*dreams of road testing a 32 inch iMac ARM.)

There have been two really good videos on AS hardware now.

One by Max Tech' and the other by Rene'.

Azrael.

 

[richinaus]

I am really looking forward to AS for all the reasons mentioned, here, but one thing stands out for me. Apple can develop whatever they like but if the 3rd party apps are not fully designed and optimised for the AS then noone is going to drop their PC for them. It is the apps that are key to all this still, and I recall some fat sweaty guy dancing around shouting ‘developers developers developers’. I think this actually still rings true.

 

[Azrael9]

Well, AMD belongs to the same old paradigm so no real competition there either. Does the 10850k have lower TDP and the same as the rumoured 95W 10910?

We can draw 'assumptions' from both links. ...and the pending Intel event. ...and an unreleased iMac.

The pending Apple part will likely be 95W. Under volt...down clock. It seems increasingly likely the hold up is down to 'cooler' running cpus and gpus that are in the pipeline but are not available at the moment.

eg. Custom 10 core running cooler. Or just a part Intel haven't announced yet. GPU. Respin of the RDNA eg +1 as they say. And...possibly a custom 6600m RDNA2 with HBM as BTO. Both worth waiting for if you want your Intel iMac to work for a long time to see out the transition without frying like eggs.

To be or not to be. That is the question.

September draws ever closer.

Azrael.
[automerge]1594982626[/automerge]

I am really looking forward to AS for all the reasons mentioned, here, but one thing stands out for me. Apple can develop whatever they like but if the 3rd party apps are not fully designed and optimised for the AS then noone is going to drop their PC for them. It is the apps that are key to all this still, and I recall some fat sweaty guy dancing around shouting ‘developers developers developers’. I think this actually still rings true.

I don't see Tim Cook doing the Ballmer...Monkey Dance in this life time or the next.

Apple are doing AS precisely because developers have been treating the Mac as a 2nd class citizen for two decades or more. Open GL. 2nd rate games. Late ports.

As soon as the first AS Mac hits? It has access to more developers than the Mac could ever have dreamed of.

So the developers are here. Millions of phone and pad apps from the iOS store. Seismic. 'Just like that.' The Mac was never going to get there. Not on Intel. Apple had no cpu or gpu edge like they had on iOS. That's what happens when you surrender to middleware or the crumbs of developers whims. You're dependent on them. The iPhone and iPad have bespoke reasons (and the market momentum and mindshare) for devs to 'be there.' Bringing the Mac to that 'mindshare' via AS makes perfect sense. It will be like a damn breaking. That glass ceiling of Mac devs and marketshare...looks vulnerable.

This is a brilliant chess move by Apple. They can get devs to write once and deploy. The more committed ones will customise and tune for AS hardware. And they will be rewarded by customers for doing so.

The best developers who want the £££ (like Affinity?) will customise for the tech' on AS chips. In fact, Affinity have promised to deploy to AS tech' nice and earrrrrrly.

Take note. Adobe and M$ are sufficiently worried by this chess move and the loss of £££ that they are deploying nice and early for this transition. If they don't come? A new kid on the block will come and replace them.

The bad devs will fall away. The good devs can see a brigher future.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

I am really looking forward to AS for all the reasons mentioned, here, but one thing stands out for me. Apple can develop whatever they like but if the 3rd party apps are not fully designed and optimised for the AS then noone is going to drop their PC for them. It is the apps that are key to all this still, and I recall some fat sweaty guy dancing around shouting ‘developers developers developers’. I think this actually still rings true.

Metal is there for third party. All you need to fully exploit AS already exists in Apple’s framework portfolio.
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I don't see Tim Cook doing the Ballmer...Monkey Dance in this life time or the next.

Man this was EPIC. I don’t know how many rails of cocaine Ballmer took on that day, but he must had a snowy nose for sure.
[automerge]1594987443[/automerge]

The bad devs will fall away. The good devs can see a brigher future.

Exactly!

 

[pldelisle]

So happy that Apple still consider PCs with CRT displays and BSOD 🥰

 

[DrRadon]

This describes so much of the fear i have around upcoming apple redesigns in and externally. They just messed the MacBook Pro up so much in the past 4-5 years asides the obvious software flaws that are present right now for everyone.

 

[pldelisle]

I don't understand the dramatically lower export time on the Surface. Let's hope Adobe is focusing on Metal and AS performance... I feel like Adobe has really diminished the development efforts on Apple platform in the last several years.

But yes, the Surface Book is really nice and performant. That would be my choice too. It's certainly the best all-around laptop/tablet made. But once you have the iPad Pro, you don't need this. An iMac + iPad Pro is, I think, the best of both worlds.

 

[Azrael9]

Man this was EPIC. I don’t know how many rails of cocaine Ballmer took on that day, but he must had a snowy nose for sure.

...which leads to flying chairs...and Monkey Dances...

...and on matters of taste...

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

Man this was even Colombian cocaine for sure. The freaking best cocaine on the market for sure. This was the most psychedelic and animal entrance of keynote of the entire tech industry and history.


(No, I don't do cocaine.)

 

[Azrael9]

I don't understand the dramatically lower export time on the Surface. Let's hope Adobe is focusing on Metal and AS performance... I feel like Adobe has really diminished the development efforts on Apple platform in the last several years.

But yes, the Surface Book is really nice and performant. That would be my choice too. It's certainly the best all-around laptop/tablet made. But once you have the iPad Pro, you don't need this. An iMac + iPad Pro is, I think, the best of both worlds.

A few things.

Adobe torpedoed the creative mindshare of the old 'creative' Mac advantage when they went cross platform.

They went generic deploy with middleware like Flash.

And it felt that the Macs got the port off their PC schedule.

So Steve Jobs bought Final Cut and chainsawed PRemiere off at the knees in retaliation for this substandard practice...and further, brought iPhotos to Mac...putting a hot teaspoon on their gonads re: Photoshop. He also further kicked them in the nads by publically humiliating flash with an 'open' letter and refusing for Flash to come to the iPad platform with it's battery hogging code (despite the screams of many...)

Apple tried many initiatives with Mac tech'. The problem? You were dependent on Adobe's snail like schedule and targeting Mac '2nd' (sometimes with no software...or missing features...) A nice fun imaging app' like 'Fun House' would showcase Apple's gpu related image manipulation speed enhancements of eg Core Image. But PS and Adobe wouldn't support it. So PS still ran like a slow dog.

Adobe can keep their 2nd rate rent ware in my books. I'm on the superior tech' of Affinity and I aint looking back.

Only Steve Chizen (was it?) could have the bare faced cheek to say at a Mac event...'What took you so long?' Re: the Intel transition. When Adobe were epic slow to support the transition.

An old dinosaur. We don't need them. There are plenty of alternatives. Photoshop 4 or was it 7 was as good, for me, as it got or required before relentless bloatware and sharper business models £££ emerged to monopolise the image market.

The move to AS is a very disrupting move for the old software giants.

More competition? A 'good thing.' TM.

Azrael.
[automerge]1595001402[/automerge]

This describes so much of the fear i have around upcoming apple redesigns in and externally. They just messed the MacBook Pro up so much in the past 4-5 years asides the obvious software flaws that are present right now for everyone.

Well. Can they ever do the Macbook 12 or Macbook Pro as bad as they were ever again?

Hell, they even learned from the Trash Can.

And dumped the crap keyboard from the crapbooks.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

The move to AS is a very disrupting move for the old software giants.

Yep totally agree. Those who will survive will only be the best ones.

Really, really hope Adobe is working hard. With all the software engineering and theory we developed in the last two decades, I can't understand they are so f*cked up for a 205 billion software company. It's so easy to have interface between OSes and engine today when you have the resources to make it.

 

[Rbfinch570]

This describes so much of the fear i have around upcoming apple redesigns in and externally. They just messed the MacBook Pro up so much in the past 4-5 years asides the obvious software flaws that are present right now for everyone.

I've been really tempted to go for a PC build, really tempted. Let's see if next week they drop the iMacs.

 

[Azrael9]

Boy. Ritliin attention span video.

That said.

Surface line. M£ deserve some praise. The Desktop Studio makes the iMac look so last century. It's stunning design. PRice and Spec need attention. But the design? Buries the current oil tanker bezel iMac...with unergonomic stand.

The detachable laptop/tablet draws merit for the way it keeps the same design when unified to a laptop. Rather than the expensive counter lever iPad 'z' stand. This is miles ahead in my book. And the Surface laptop/tablet is 15 inches vs the 12.9 of the iPad. And you get the SD card slot on the Surface, too. And a better keyboard. I do like the surface keyboards. Much better than the RSI hard keyboard of the last iPad keyboard thing. And they had the magnet pen that could 'click' onto your tablet too.

Apple. Get back to being focused on products rather than £££.

Azrael.
[automerge]1595001962[/automerge]

Yep totally agree. Those who will survive will only be the best ones.

Really, really hope Adobe is working hard. With all the software engineering and theory we developed in the last two decades, I can't understand they are so f*cked up for a 205 billion software company. It's so easy to have interface between OSes and engine today when you have the resources to make it.

All who have power are 'fraid to lose it.

Azrael.
[automerge]1595002199[/automerge]

Yep totally agree. Those who will survive will only be the best ones.

Really, really hope Adobe is working hard. With all the software engineering and theory we developed in the last two decades, I can't understand they are so f*cked up for a 205 billion software company. It's so easy to have interface between OSes and engine today when you have the resources to make it.

Adobe are a great example of why Apple are continuing down the customisible user experience like they did with iPhone or iPad.

Other wise you get middleware and 2nd class ports with missing software or features.

This isn't the early days of Apple desktop Mac and Adobe DTP and Photoshop anymore.

Those are merely nostalgia. I wouldn't count Adobe as being a great friend of Apple Mac or the Mac customer for the last two decades.

Azrael.
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Let's hope Adobe is focusing on Metal and AS performance... I feel like Adobe has really diminished the development efforts on Apple platform in the last several years.

Because they're Adobe.

Azrael.
[automerge]1595002716[/automerge]

I've been really tempted to go for a PC build, really tempted. Let's see if next week they drop the iMacs.

I'm still pricing up my PC Tower build. Ooming and arhing...over whether I want to make it dual Boot Hack/Windows. Or just leave it 'pure darkside' PC Tower.

I would have thought we must be getting close to leaks re: a pending iMac...

Azrael.