Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[DrRadon]

In the UK, John Lewis, Curry's, Selfridges, Very, Amazon, and KRCS are all either showing sold out or extended delivery dates of nearly a month suggesting that the launch really is imminent. I'm not sure how much longer Apple would sustain the low stock levels.

But we also had 21.5 inch iMacs coming back in stock over the past week (at Apple), so who knows... maybe they did plan for wwdc, maybe they are only bumping the 27 inch because the 21,5 is at its cooling limits only rocking 8th gen processors anyway.
if this was supposed to drop today... are pallets already sitting at the stores?

 

[Migranya]

It's a possibility that we have a launch of the 27-inch iMacs in the first wave and later we get de 23 ones. But some people talked about a low-stock 27-inch panels so maybe that's the reason and we get both models at the same time (this scenario makes more sense to me).

Also, according to a Twitter user that I think he also posts in these forums, today is the day. Let's see in a few hours.

 

[DrRadon]

Also, according to a Twitter user that I think he also posts in these forums, today is the day. Let's see in a few hours.

that’s probably me and I was just guessing based on what we had by the leakers and before the riots and protests.

 

[iPadified]

I suppose its not. But... i would really like it to be for all possible selfish and global happiness reasons. xD

Last week: "We might actually be able to prevent a second wave."
This week: "Hold my beer!"

The riots and protests will probably calm down in the next two weeks. But i even have seen protests all over Europe, Paris yesterday with 10.000 people being the biggest one. It feels almost certain that two weeks from now the media will be all over the "second wave" pointing the fingers at the protesters. (not taking any sides here for reasons of being a tech discussion, just fairly certain these three things will happen)

It's almost like you somehow have to very carefully throw in your news announcements between the almost certain media spikes around catastrophe in the next two to six weeks. And by than it's almost election time in the US...

If we wait for the world to be a better place, we need to wait forever. There seem to be a systemic unrest at the moment, probably magnified by COVID-19 lockdowns. Smallest flare and everything goes to pieces.

 

[iDan75]

Which makes YOU the nutcase. Not him

Three iMacs for me since 2000, not bad going ?

 

[DrRadon]

If we wait for the world to be a better place, we need to wait forever.

It's not about "no negativ things happening in the world", it's about the media and (to an extend) the people caring about it whatever there is going on and that interfering with marketing. You don't want the "celebration" (as google called their android event) of your new "whatever" get no time on the Shows/Papers/Websites.

 

[sublunar]

But we also had 21.5 inch iMacs coming back in stock over the past week (at Apple), so who knows... maybe they did plan for wwdc, maybe they are only bumping the 27 inch because the 21,5 is at its cooling limits only rocking 8th gen processors anyway.

At time of writing in the UK a BTO 27" iMac will arrive some time in July (stock models 18-25 June). This is a consistent kicking of the can down the road whereas the 21.5" and iMac Pro are relatively available at the moment.

21.5" iMacs have been consistently not as constrained as 27" iMacs; according to Gamers Nexus Youtube shipping costs have been rising in part due to reduced capacity on transports following the disruption of extended new year breaks in the far east manufacturing hubs - air freight is massively down for instance. Apple already optimise the packaging to fit more iMacs into the same space so perhaps that's a factor in the overall number of units they can ship. The iMac Pro probably gets a pass because of the profit margin.

 

[Azrael9]

NAVI 10 XL, XT were released on July 7, 2019, way after the 2019 iMac. At this time, Polaris was the only thing AMD had to offer.

And it's 'way' way way (etc) after July 7 2019.

And no iMac (in June 2020) from £1700-£3560 has it.

Polaris is no longer the 'only' thing AMD has to offer Apple.

Azrael.
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RDNA1 availability was after the 2019 iMac refresh, was it not?

A 'few' months after the iMac's release. Currently, that's almost a year ago. It's now an 'old' card.

So why not offer the 'latest' GPU as a BTO?

Azrael.
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Today I sold my i7, 512gb, 580 2017 iMac good value. In Turkey we have a 2 years of warranty. And I don‘t like to use out of warranty devices. Espacially expensive devices. I hope we’ll get new iMac‘s in WWDC.

I wish we'd get 2 years warranty in the UK. If Apple's machines are as good as their marketing boast...

Azrael.
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Im still on a 2007, core 2 duo. Everything works but just barely. Im getting whatever they release now.

It should be a dramatic change/upgrade for you.

Azrael.
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Should I buy an iMac Pro versus an iMac since we don't know when they are coming out? Or is the iMac Pro processors behind the curve as well?

Release of the iMac. See WWDC.

If it's not out by then.

Then check out the deals for the 'old' iMacs from 2019 and the older iMac Pros from 2017 onwards.

The good news about WWDC and any new iMac?

Will give the prices for the 'current' iMacs a real beating.

Azrael.
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Just teasing . Now is not the time to release anything even if an iMac would fly completely under the radar.

If it's as miserable as the Mac Mini release, then it will fly under the radar regardless.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

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The move to ARM has started years ago spearheaded by the iPad. Apps needs to be reprogrammed somewhat and recompiled but the iPad has already started this movement. I highly doubt the switch to ARM means a 1:1 port of MacOS. It is far easier to let the two product lines coexist until the apps for ARM based "Mac" has matured sufficiently or if ARM makes x86 embarrassing to use in terms of performance. Why would they make a halo product like the MP if they decided to kill the x86 line (Mac) the year after? No, the MP is an investment for Apple and if upgraded the design will hold for 2-3 decades.

The MP functions extremely poorly as a halo product for iPads. A 20-27 inch desktop "iPad" driven by a ARM based CPU suitable Apple GPU not intended for a mobile phone, 16-32 Gb RAM, 4 Tb SSD, a scaled down afterburner card (suspect this already exist in the A12Z chip) and four USB-C ports, would be a better halo product and would blur the line to a traditional iMac. Add to that the rumours of FCP X and Logic for iPad is soon coming. Hence, the ARM transition can come from "below".

DrRadon, it is Wednesday the 3:rd...I hope you are right in your predictions. I confess being a bit pessimistic at this point.

Sound post. The train has already left the station. Logic and Final Cut will be game changers for the iPad. And I wouldn't be surprised if Apple released a 16 inch iPad Pro to go alongside those apps which certainly using alot of screen real estate and need to 'breath'.

The iPad A12z and Procreate is like Star Trek technology compared to the Mac Tower and Photoshop I was using in 1997.

The A12z already casts a looming shadow over Intel CPUs.

We can expect the A14X to be an imposing and bruising performer.

20-27 inch 'iPad?' using Mac ARM?

Yes please.

Azrael.
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Should I buy an iMac Pro versus an iMac since we don't know when they are coming out? Or is the iMac Pro processors behind the curve as well?

As somebody who once waited ten years for a Mac upgrade (please, no jokes...) you can fall into the trap of waiting for ever.

Should WWDC not deliever new iMacs. Shop around. Be very aggressive on the iMac Pro as it is an old machine now. So don't go paying £5k for old rope...£4k would still be pricey...when the new one is probably half a year away.

Try and push for £3.5k. Sell your old one and put that towards it also. And if it helps. Apple is currently offering two years 0%.

Something additional to consider.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

Which makes YOU the nutcase. Not him

Aye. Extracting the most value from the prices Apple charges is prudent.

Yes, 'Bandwidth.'

PCI Express - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PCIE. The 'hard' numbers. Top right of this link showing the progression from PCIE 1-6.

Note: the numbers progression from PCIE3 to 5 is quite dramatic.

Should explain things better than I did...and what we can look forward to.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

We can expect the A14X to be an imposing and bruising performer.

For sure. It will also be in 5nm. And desktops do not require such low-powered chips. They can go way higher in clock speed and core count for their desktop counterparts ! Put more core in it, more GPU cores, higher clock, and it's a beast. With on chip RAM too ? Wow ... !

 

[Patchwork]

TBF I think the 'second wave' discussion may not be as big of a factor as you'd imagine as the UK was already seemingly moving away from the practical discussions around 'the little green $#!T that shall not be named' in to politicised chaos over 'the guy whose name may trigger a porn censorship'.

But I do think that Apple may end up quietly releasing some updates as it seems the stock for 27inch iMacs is completely dried up in most 3rd party resellers.

In the UK, John Lewis, Curry's, Selfridges, Very, Amazon, and KRCS are all either showing sold out or extended delivery dates of nearly a month suggesting that the launch really is imminent. I'm not sure how much longer Apple would sustain the low stock levels.

Jigsaw24, an Apple reseller in the UK, has 14 27” iMacs in stock an 13 iMac Pros, so I don’t think we can read too much into stock levels. They also have 27 LG 5k ultrafine monitors in stock which weren’t available in early May, so looks like production of The 27” screen is back to normal

 

[Azrael9]

For sure. It will also be in 5nm. And desktops do not require such low-powered chips. They can go way higher in clock speed and core count for their desktop counterparts ! Put more core in it, more GPU cores, higher clock, and it's a beast. With on chip RAM too ? Wow ... !

Der-rool, der-rool. Full on Beast, pldelisle.

Higher clock speeds unrestrained by mobile...more cores...more gpu cores...higher clock...and higher core counts than the iMac currently ships as standard with...seductive words for any transition to Mac ARM.

And...remember when Apple 'gave away' two G4 processors to make the Power Mac at around £2000 a dual processor machine?

Trying to wrap my head around what a dual core or quad core A14x would be like...on top of all those cores and higher clocks...I wonder if you could just put 'two' A14Xs in a machine...and wonder at the results.

Azrael.

 

[Nugget]

Trying to wrap my head around what a dual core or quad core A14x would be like...on top of all those cores and higher clocks...I wonder if you could just put 'two' A14Xs in a machine...and wonder at the results.

For the vast, vast majority of iMac users it would be a 90% idle machine while one or two cores struggle to complete their task.

 

[Azrael9]

For the vast, vast majority of iMac users it would be a 90% idle machine while one or two cores struggle to complete their task.

Procreate on an iPad runs better thank Painter on a Mac...for the 'vast majority' of iPad users that choose Procreate. And there's Affinity Photo. Affinity Design harnessing the power of iPad.

Frequently the complaints on iPad by reviews is that the OS and Apps still aren't harnessing the full potential of the hardware.

The 'Mac ARM' isn't out yet. But the current gen is more than holding it's own in single core Geek benches...and quite respectable in multicore. We're not talking about Intel's Atom cpu here.

The current A12z seems super fluid on the iPad for 9/10 of things the 'majority' of iMac users use it for. I'd suggest if for those 9/10 things, you swapped the A12z now for the current (year old) Intel cpu, they wouldn't notice.

Which 'task' (specifically?) of a future A14X would 1 or 2 cores struggle with? Opening a web browser? Painting a document in Painter? Doing video editing? Manipulating a 3d object? (All tasks the iPad currently burns through...)

Adding Logic and Final Cut to the iPad mix. Seems Apple are pretty confident of how well these will perform on the iPad's A12z let alone the A14x. Rumours that 'they're already in development' and almost ready to ship.

The only potential 'slow down' would be if the Mac ARM directly tried to emulate an Intel CPU/Windows. The latter of which has been pretty much irrelevant in iOS terms.

Azrael.

 

[sublunar]

The move to ARM has started years ago spearheaded by the iPad. Apps needs to be reprogrammed somewhat and recompiled but the iPad has already started this movement. I highly doubt the switch to ARM means a 1:1 port of MacOS. It is far easier to let the two product lines coexist until the apps for ARM based "Mac" has matured sufficiently or if ARM makes x86 embarrassing to use in terms of performance. Why would they make a halo product like the MP if they decided to kill the x86 line (Mac) the year after? No, the MP is an investment for Apple and if upgraded the design will hold for 2-3 decades.

The MP functions extremely poorly as a halo product for iPads. A 20-27 inch desktop "iPad" driven by a ARM based CPU suitable Apple GPU not intended for a mobile phone, 16-32 Gb RAM, 4 Tb SSD, a scaled down afterburner card (suspect this already exist in the A12Z chip) and four USB-C ports, would be a better halo product and would blur the line to a traditional iMac. Add to that the rumours of FCP X and Logic for iPad is soon coming. Hence, the ARM transition can come from "below".

I'm getting the impression that Intel Macs - specifically Xeon powered ones - will linger for some tine to come for those users who need the power for specific applications that won't be back ported to ARM. Certainly Apple would be closing the door on professional video editors if they discontinued the Mac Pro as part of a migration to ARM without a credible replacement. Remember some of these guys could be using something like Adobe apps - and you can't assume they'll port their apps in any time scale. And they got persuaded to stay with this product.

Why blow the good will now?

If an ARM 12" iBook is coming this year then it would make sense for an A14x powered iMac (Air?) to be next year's surprise product - and possibly the one that makes sense for people editing on FCPX next year. It would make one hell of a performance test bench.

Don't forget that the A12X appears to be the CPU going into a AppleTV which would ideally get announced at WWDC (real world issues notwithstanding). And that's intended to be powering a user's 4k screen.

If an iMac Air 23" using a CPU equivalent to a A14x (but Apple call it M2 CPU) with mini LED 4k panel was released at WWDC21 they would clearly want to push some FCPX benchmarks to prove how good it was. They just have to figure out some way of getting the connectivity that professionals would demand. A single USB-C port isn't going to cut it for the FCPX crowd.

 

[DrRadon]

So... Monday would be a decent day to postpone if today would have been the day i guess.

 

[ssong]

does anyone know if any model names had been leaked before in relation to this release cycle? like `MMQA2B/A`

 

[Moonjumper]

A lot of comments suggest there is a bigger difference between the iOS and macOS code bases than there really is. iOS was spun off from OS X (now renamed macOS). It is the same code base.

Here is an example: Xcode is the development environment for every Apple OS. It includes an app called Simulator. This allows a developer to test iOS apps on a Mac, simulating the screen, etc. of a chosen iOS device. To do this it compiles the iOS app to work on Intel. The programming languages most commonly used are processor agnostic. The main differences are in the APIs for how sandboxed the apps are, how the file systems are accessed, and how the users interact.

Another example: More than half of all mobile games are made with Unity (including the ones I am working on). To make a Unity iOS game work on Mac is a matter of selecting the target platform. The actual work comes from making it suit Mac screens and input types. That is easier for some than others, but many do not bother because the market is just not there.

The big difference between iOS and macOS is how you interact with it. iPadOS has blurred the lines by having both control options, but Apple's repeated remarks that touch does not suit Macs has not gone away. I don't expect the iMac to become a touch based device in anyway.

That isn't to say there will not be more crossover, extending what they have done with Sidecar. I'm surprised there isn't already an official cradle so an iPad can act as a large Magic TrackPad, with the added abilities that the screen would allow. I could see a larger desk based iPad as a result of this to make an excellent alternative to a Wacom drawing tablet.

 

[DrRadon]

does anyone know if any model names had been leaked before in relation to this release cycle? like `MMQA2B/A`

As far as i know no. The only parts numbers we supposedly got were for the new GPUs "for Apple" but only with guesses wich computer they might end up in.

 

[gusping]

A lot of comments suggest there is a bigger difference between the iOS and macOS code bases than there really is. iOS was spun off from OS X (now renamed macOS). It is the same code base.

Here is an example: Xcode is the development environment for every Apple OS. It includes an app called Simulator. This allows a developer to test iOS apps on a Mac, simulating the screen, etc. of a chosen iOS device. To do this it compiles the iOS app to work on Intel. The programming languages most commonly used are processor agnostic. The main differences are in the APIs for how sandboxed the apps are, how the file systems are accessed, and how the users interact.

Another example: More than half of all mobile games are made with Unity (including the ones I am working on). To make a Unity iOS game work on Mac is a matter of selecting the target platform. The actual work comes from making it suit Mac screens and input types. That is easier for some than others, but many do not bother because the market is just not there.

The big difference between iOS and macOS is how you interact with it. iPadOS has blurred the lines by having both control options, but Apple's repeated remarks that touch does not suit Macs has not gone away. I don't expect the iMac to become a touch based device in anyway.

That isn't to say there will not be more crossover, extending what they have done with Sidecar. I'm surprised there isn't already an official cradle so an iPad can act as a large Magic TrackPad, with the added abilities that the screen would allow. I could see a larger desk based iPad as a result of this to make an excellent alternative to a Wacom drawing tablet.

Fascinating insight, thank you very much for sharing.

 

[Azrael9]

A lot of comments suggest there is a bigger difference between the iOS and macOS code bases than there really is. iOS was spun off from OS X (now renamed macOS). It is the same code base.

Here is an example: Xcode is the development environment for every Apple OS. It includes an app called Simulator. This allows a developer to test iOS apps on a Mac, simulating the screen, etc. of a chosen iOS device. To do this it compiles the iOS app to work on Intel. The programming languages most commonly used are processor agnostic. The main differences are in the APIs for how sandboxed the apps are, how the file systems are accessed, and how the users interact.

Another example: More than half of all mobile games are made with Unity (including the ones I am working on). To make a Unity iOS game work on Mac is a matter of selecting the target platform. The actual work comes from making it suit Mac screens and input types. That is easier for some than others, but many do not bother because the market is just not there.

The big difference between iOS and macOS is how you interact with it. iPadOS has blurred the lines by having both control options, but Apple's repeated remarks that touch does not suit Macs has not gone away. I don't expect the iMac to become a touch based device in anyway.

That isn't to say there will not be more crossover, extending what they have done with Sidecar. I'm surprised there isn't already an official cradle so an iPad can act as a large Magic TrackPad, with the added abilities that the screen would allow. I could see a larger desk based iPad as a result of this to make an excellent alternative to a Wacom drawing tablet.

Great post. I really enjoyed reading that and the nuances of where the 'state of the universe' is and why the next transition will be a lot easier than the last one. Chances are, Apple has already Mac ARM running MacOS/iOS in their labs on an A12z or A13 and 'quite surprised' by the results of it. It may explain, partly, the leisurely nature of Mac hardware updates.

Apple are so much further ahead in this transition already. The Mac and iPad are fundamentally the same. Marizpan is just translation of the 'top layer' APIs for the target platform. Resolution. Interface elements? With each iteration of Marzipan...the 'translation' into a 'Mac' app becomes simpler for the developer in terms of the more mundane elements such as interface, resolution...and the under lying code compile.

Those lines are indeed getting blurred with iPad's 'interactive' elements eg. mouse/trackpad/keyboard support.

It's less about the iMac becoming an iPad and more about an iPad becoming an 'iMac' over time. Just as the iPad has morphed into a pseudo laptop. The iPad will be all the desktop many need if it reaches 16, 21 or 27 inches in size. It becomes Son of iMac just as Mac was Son of Lisa...or iMac was Son of Mac.

It's largely semantics in terms of how it gets there...the destination seems to be the same.

For many reviewers, the iPad is the best Wacom they never made. And for me? The iPad is the best 'Mac' Apple ever made. A true fulfilment of a computer for the 9 out of 10 tasks 'rest of us.'

It's still got a ways to go and that's where Mac ARM comes into play.

A larger desk based iPad is (for me) the true evolution of the current iMac. The interim goal is 'side car' but the ultimate goal is insurrection.

A 16 inch iPad running Logic or Final Cut (will they debut THIS year or next year with the Mac Arm?) will make a massive transitional step to Mac ARM. I'd love to run Procreate, Affinity Photo and Design on such a device.

But ultimately, a 'desk based' 21, 24 or 27 inch iPad is where I'd like to be. By then, 'Mac' ARM will be a reality.

Azrael.

 

[gusping]

It's less about the iMac becoming an iPad and more about an iPad becoming an 'iMac' over time.

Azrael.

Are you saying an iPad with 10900k and 5700 XT performance will come before an iMac with those specs? God dammit, Azrael. Always smashing up my dreams.

 

[Azrael9]

I'm getting the impression that Intel Macs - specifically Xeon powered ones - will linger for some tine to come for those users who need the power for specific applications that won't be back ported to ARM. Certainly Apple would be closing the door on professional video editors if they discontinued the Mac Pro as part of a migration to ARM without a credible replacement. Remember some of these guys could be using something like Adobe apps - and you can't assume they'll port their apps in any time scale. And they got persuaded to stay with this product.

Why blow the good will now?

If an ARM 12" iBook is coming this year then it would make sense for an A14x powered iMac (Air?) to be next year's surprise product - and possibly the one that makes sense for people editing on FCPX next year. It would make one hell of a performance test bench.

Don't forget that the A12X appears to be the CPU going into a AppleTV which would ideally get announced at WWDC (real world issues notwithstanding). And that's intended to be powering a user's 4k screen.

If an iMac Air 23" using a CPU equivalent to a A14x (but Apple call it M2 CPU) with mini LED 4k panel was released at WWDC21 they would clearly want to push some FCPX benchmarks to prove how good it was. They just have to figure out some way of getting the connectivity that professionals would demand. A single USB-C port isn't going to cut it for the FCPX crowd.

Any dev' kit this year...then surely 'Mac' (ARM) books follow next year with an 'iMac' Air? As they are the two volume sellers. Moving around the best part of 5 million units between them.

Any A14X in any iMac 'Air' is going to kick az'. Apple won't do it unless they can stomp Intel into the ground.

And I don't doubt that Apple will surprise us with a version inbound for any 'Mac' Pro. Which maybe the last to transition. But not by as much as people may think.

Adobe are already on iOS. And they're 'here' for a reason. $$$.

Azrael.
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Are you saying an iPad with 10900k and 5700 XT performance will come before an iMac with those specs? God dammit, Azrael. Always smashing up my dreams.

I have to buy an iMac 'this' year.

But trust me, I believe when Mac 'ARM' comes to the iBook, iMac Air we'd best be wearing crash helmets when the Mac 'ARM' hammer to fall.

The 10900k and 5700XT are going to be distant 'mere' shadows when Apple release Mac ARM in 2021. Apple are not going to release a Mac ARM chip that performs like an Intel ATOM or lags behind an Intel cpu in 'most' tasks. I only have to look at how the iPad performs 'most' tasks to see the 'heavenly glory' to come. The hardware is blisteringly fast and most observers say it's the software holding it back.

Intel's CPUs and AMD's Radeon 5700XT on Mac? They're already late. And out of date.

If Apple aren't going AMD then they must be very confident that Mac ARM will be the x86 destroyer we've all harboured dark dreams of since the PPC days.

Intel will need more than 'God' to help them when Apple's Mac ARM comes for them in the night, dammit.

Azrael.

 

[Azrael9]

So... Monday would be a decent day to postpone if today would have been the day i guess.

Intel Core i9-10900K tested and compared with Ryzen 9 3900X/3950X - VideoCardz.com

Intel’s flagship Comet Lake-S CPU goes against Ryzen 9 series. Intel Core i9-10900K vs Ryzen 9 3950X An early review of the Core i9-10900K has been published ahead of the official embargo. The sample tested by TecLab appears to be a retail version, meaning there should be no reason to believe...

videocardz.com

The cpu dog fight continues.

Meanwhile, we 'wait on' for the next iMac.

Azrael.