Will there ever be a new large iMac (Pro)?

[sublunar]

Intel Core i9-10900K tested and compared with Ryzen 9 3900X/3950X - VideoCardz.com

Intel’s flagship Comet Lake-S CPU goes against Ryzen 9 series. Intel Core i9-10900K vs Ryzen 9 3950X An early review of the Core i9-10900K has been published ahead of the official embargo. The sample tested by TecLab appears to be a retail version, meaning there should be no reason to believe...

videocardz.com

The cpu dog fight continues.

Meanwhile, we 'wait on' for the next iMac.

Azrael.

That URL appearing to confirm that the i9-10900k runs hot and needs a water cooler has to be worrying for Apple. It clearly appears to lend itself to going directly into an iMac Pro case for the cooling power.

That said, the longer Apple leave the next iMac, the worse a 'mild storage bump' is going to look next to Comet Lake PCs as they come out.

 

[Moonjumper]

For the vast, vast majority of iMac users it would be a 90% idle machine while one or two cores struggle to complete their task.

I expect one way Apple will up the performance for Arm processors on Mac will be to increase the number of cores, which will mean a lot of redundant cores for software the only uses one. It is something that programming should have gone away from long ago, but hopefully the switch will provide the impetus to finally embrace multi-core hardware.

 

[Azrael9]

That URL appearing to confirm that the i9-10900k runs hot and needs a water cooler has to be worrying for Apple. It clearly appears to lend itself to going directly into an iMac Pro case for the cooling power.

That said, the longer Apple leave the next iMac, the worse a 'mild storage bump' is going to look next to Comet Lake PCs as they come out.

*Nods.

I'm very curious how Apple handles the current iMac design cul-de-sac in terms of Intel CPUs and the Radeon RDNA1.

They have several options from underclocking, bringing in iMac Pro's cooling, a 'larger' heat sink to redesigning the iMac chassis itself or using 8 core 'portable' variants.

Another option.

PowerMac Intels used to be in the £1700-£3k price bracket.

So, why not use an 8 core variant of the Xeon? They're cheaper than ever? It would allow the iMac to scale to 10 core and beyond.

Effectively, you'd bring the iMac Pro 'down' to the iMac 27 inches price bracket with the current entry model?

£2k for an 8 core Xeon iMac 'Pro' (With the improved cooling...) and £3k for the '10' core Xeon variant? With 5600xt and 5700XT for each model...

You basically use the processor that's in the iMac to consolidate the iMac Pro's amortised costs (it's over 3 years and made it's money...) so the RnD is paid for. The iMac Pro gets a 3k price cut but with 16 gigs of ram instead of 32. 512 gig SSD instead of 1TB. 8 core. You have the 5600XT instead of the Vega 56.

You get Apple's supply chain cost reduction by selling to a 1 million iMac buyers.

Azrael.

 

[Homy]

That said, the longer Apple leave the next iMac, the worse a 'mild storage bump' is going to look next to Comet Lake PCs as they come out.

Apple still has some good options to offer and doesn't have to use the hot CPUs. They're now offering 6-core i5 with 6 threads 65 W, 6-core i7 with 12 threads 65 W and 8-core i9 with 16 threads 95 W in iMac.

In the new iMacs they can offer i5-10400, i5-10500, i5-10600 all with 6 cores and 12 threads 65 W, i7-10700 8 cores 16 threads 65 W and i9-10900 10 cores 20 threads 65 W. Sure the base clock speeds are lower but the extra cores and threads can compensate or even be better in many cases. The lower power consumption of i9-10900 may even let Apple use hotter GPUs or overclock the CPUs/GPUs a bit to compensate. We'll see eventually next week or at WWDC.

 

[Azrael9]

I expect one way Apple will up the performance for Arm processors on Mac will be to increase the number of cores, which will mean a lot of redundant cores for software the only uses one. It is something that programming should have gone away from long ago, but hopefully the switch will provide the impetus to finally embrace multi-core hardware.

We seem to have been waiting ages for software to get with the program.

The multicore cpus and gpus have been there for a while now.

The dreamcast has it's dual core design and the PS3 had it's Cell 'cores'. Dual, quad, 6, 8 and beyond cores have been a thing for years upon years now.

Aren't games increasingly using more 'cores' now to the point that a 6 core cpu is quite a modest bit of future proofing right now.

Certainly, with iPad/Mac ARM we see the potency of the 'many cores' approach as the iPad (for a non fan cooled cpu) is truly astonishing performance.

I think this is where Apple having full control of the X-Code programming/compile, hardware/software and future 'Mac' ARM stack will pay dividends. It will be a paradigm shift. It already is. What iPhones and IPads are doing is most impressive.

When they scale that up for Mac ARM, the A14X will be a sight to behold. I may be critical of Mac desktops on many levels...but Apple's performance on the mobile Apple chips has been breathtaking. I have complete faith that Mac ARM will be the 'Destroyer.' It will make the dreams of a G5 in a laptop seem quaint.

Azrael.

 

[jonblatho]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268213119475568642

???

 

[Azrael9]

Apple still has some good options to offer and doesn't have to use the hot CPUs. They're now offering 6-core i5 with 6 threads 65 W, 6-core i7 with 12 threads 65 W and 8-core i9 with 16 threads 95 W in iMac.

In the new iMacs they can offer i5-10400, i5-10500, i5-10600 all with 6 cores and 12 threads 65 W, i7-10700 8 cores 16 threads 65 W and i9-10900 10 cores 20 threads 65 W. Sure the base clock speeds are lower but the extra cores and threads can compensate or even be better in many cases. The lower power consumption of i9-10900 may even let Apple use hotter GPUs or overclock the CPUs/GPUs a bit to compensate. We'll see eventually next week or at WWDC.

Interesting thoughts. If absolute performance is the gain. I did note the 65w versions in the Intel slideshows.

We'll soon get to see.

Azrael.
[automerge]1591201297[/automerge]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268213119475568642

???

Good catch, joblatho.

Confirming our optimistic instincts. (After all, why redesign the Mac Pro and not the iMac...)

...could it be a ground up redesign that eGamer Mac lovers have longed for...? "POW-URRRRRRR!"

*lays back in recline pose.

Now...what will that 'new' design look like...

3 weeks to go?

Azrael.

 

[Moonjumper]

We seem to have been waiting ages for software to get with the program.

The multicore cpus and gpus have been there for a while now.

The dreamcast has it's dual core design and the PS3 had it's Cell 'cores'. Dual, quad, 6, 8 and beyond cores have been a thing for years upon years now.

Aren't games increasingly using more 'cores' now to the point that a 6 core cpu is quite a modest bit of future proofing right now.

Certainly, with iPad/Mac ARM we see the potency of the 'many cores' approach as the iPad (for a non fan cooled cpu) is truly astonishing performance.

I think this is where Apple having full control of the X-Code programming/compile, hardware/software and future 'Mac' ARM stack will pay dividends. It will be a paradigm shift. It already is. What iPhones and IPads are doing is most impressive.

When they scale that up for Mac ARM, the A14X will be a sight to behold. I may be critical of Mac desktops on many levels...but Apple's performance on the mobile Apple chips has been breathtaking. I have complete faith that Mac ARM will be the 'Destroyer.' It will make the dreams of a G5 in a laptop seem quaint.

Azrael.

I think the Mac Arm chips will be so distinct that they give them a different letter, maybe M for Mac. I expect they will have more performance cores than efficiency cores (both more than on A series). They will probably still have GPU cores on the same chip now they have custom graphics, but will go for many more cores there also, so nothing like Intel integrated graphics.

 

[jonblatho]

I think the Mac Arm chips will be so distinct that they give them a different letter, maybe M for Mac.

The letter M is already used (less prominently than it was, but it still is) to refer to motion coprocessors coupled with A7 and later.

 

[Icaras]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1268213119475568642

???

Finally. WWDC here we come.

 

[Azrael9]

I think the Mac Arm chips will be so distinct that they give them a different letter, maybe M for Mac. I expect they will have more performance cores than efficiency cores (both more than on A series). They will probably still have GPU cores on the same chip now they have custom graphics, but will go for many more cores there also, so nothing like Intel integrated graphics.

I concur. 'M' for Mac. Mac ARM chips will be distinct. And powerful.

I used to dream about Macs getting their own 'cpu.' And I remember the idea being derided as expensive because Apple needed to put billions into 'fabs.'

Yes. More performance cores. And many, many gpu cores.

Whilst I'm hyper critical of desktop Mac gpu performance.

We certainly can't throw that accusation at iPads. Integrated or otherwise. The iPad's gpu performance has been mobile class class leading in phones and tablets. And it has the software synergy of Metal to back that up.

If that mobile phone and pad ambition is matched in Mac ARM chips, we're in for a seismic event of world up side down turning level of performance for Mac desktops. And the x86 world is in for a major kicking around that gravel car park.

A 'Mac' that actually tears apart Intel, AMD in CPU and GPU performance? Can we get our heads around that?

Mac ARM performance will surprise many. Certainly in terms of the design, efficiency of the product Apple Mac ARM will bring to the table. eg. An iMac Air that is truly 'flat' with no tear drop bulge?

That's a true paradigm shift. Because you have the form factor of an iPad 24/27 incher on a dock. With performance far beyond an already impressive iPad A12z

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

We seem to have been waiting ages for software to get with the program.

The multicore cpus and gpus have been there for a while now.

The dreamcast has it's dual core design and the PS3 had it's Cell 'cores'. Dual, quad, 6, 8 and beyond cores have been a thing for years upon years now.

Aren't games increasingly using more 'cores' now to the point that a 6 core cpu is quite a modest bit of future proofing right now.

Certainly, with iPad/Mac ARM we see the potency of the 'many cores' approach as the iPad (for a non fan cooled cpu) is truly astonishing performance.

I think this is where Apple having full control of the X-Code programming/compile, hardware/software and future 'Mac' ARM stack will pay dividends. It will be a paradigm shift. It already is. What iPhones and IPads are doing is most impressive.

When they scale that up for Mac ARM, the A14X will be a sight to behold. I may be critical of Mac desktops on many levels...but Apple's performance on the mobile Apple chips has been breathtaking. I have complete faith that Mac ARM will be the 'Destroyer.' It will make the dreams of a G5 in a laptop seem quaint.

Azrael.

Not all software processing can be multithreaded. I have a rather solid parallel processing experience and it's pretty hard to parallelize serial code. Not all processing can be parallelized and there is always a trade off between overhead and performance gain.

 

[Azrael9]

Not all software processing can be multithreaded. I have a rather solid parallel processing experience and it's pretty hard to parallelize serial code. Not all processing can be parallelized and there is always a trade off between overhead and performance gain.

This is true.

*nods.

Still, seeing a Threadripper tear through a 3D Cinebench benchmark...is a wonder to behold.

Azrael.

 

[pldelisle]

Yeah but benchmarks are not real life

 

[sublunar]

We seem to have been waiting ages for software to get with the program.

The multicore cpus and gpus have been there for a while now.

The dreamcast has it's dual core design and the PS3 had it's Cell 'cores'. Dual, quad, 6, 8 and beyond cores have been a thing for years upon years now.

Aren't games increasingly using more 'cores' now to the point that a 6 core cpu is quite a modest bit of future proofing right now.

Certainly, with iPad/Mac ARM we see the potency of the 'many cores' approach as the iPad (for a non fan cooled cpu) is truly astonishing performance.

I think this is where Apple having full control of the X-Code programming/compile, hardware/software and future 'Mac' ARM stack will pay dividends. It will be a paradigm shift. It already is. What iPhones and IPads are doing is most impressive.

When they scale that up for Mac ARM, the A14X will be a sight to behold. I may be critical of Mac desktops on many levels...but Apple's performance on the mobile Apple chips has been breathtaking. I have complete faith that Mac ARM will be the 'Destroyer.' It will make the dreams of a G5 in a laptop seem quaint.

Azrael.

The forthcoming Xbox One Series X and PS5 are both octacore consoles. It's become far easier to pile on cores than improving ultimate per thread clock speed which heavily favours well programmed software.

Certain unoptimised games and apps are still highly single threaded, which favours Intel but only in the highest SKUs with Ryzen improving fast.

I really can't see Apple removing the i9-10900K from their line-up as the BTO top option but the solution to that stares us in the face - with the iMac Pro case and cooling system.

The aforementioned tweet might be referring to the iMac, but what if it referred instead to an iBook? Both could be powered by A12z and would be worthy of an introduction in a WWDC. I can't see a compelling reason for introducing a new Intel iMac unless they had something to say about Thunderbolt 4/Rocket Lake.

 

[Azrael9]

Benchmarks in PC terms are largely old paradigms.

With the current iPad's 'real life' benchmarks are becoming irrelevant as the experience has a much more immediate focus. As such, the iPad in the here and now (for what it does...) points is a true next gen' experience. (It lacks some of the Mac OS extensible function and crust of many decades...)

So, the exciting thing about Mac ARM (for me) will be less about how it blows Intel et al out the water...but how the 'car' handles around the bends and on the open roads. Not just the 'Hot Rod' dash in seconds. ie. The performance in 'real world' experience.

PC reviewers focus alot on benches. But x86 is old. I find the PC experience on Windows and Mac can seem quite 'static.'

But with the iPad's promotion, the metal, the chip, the apps...the low gate pen and screen non-parallax...it adds up to more than how fast it does Geek bench or Metal test. Sure. It's so fast at these that it is leading edge for a mobile experience. But the total experience that is created out of this leading edge performance creates experiences that are more fluid and feel more like a next gen computer experience despite the currently imposed limitations of iOS.

I think that Augurs well for the Mac ARM and future Mac/iOS.

Azrael.

 

[iPadified]

I'm very curious how Apple handles the current iMac design cul-de-sac in terms of Intel CPUs and the Radeon RDNA1.

If something in cul-de-sac it is intel. The Comet lake CPUs should draw half the power if they shrunk the nodes.

 

[pldelisle]

The aforementioned tweet might be referring to the iMac, but what if it referred instead to an iBook? Both could be powered by A12z and would be worthy of an introduction in a WWDC. I can't see a compelling reason for introducing a new Intel iMac unless they had something to say about Thunderbolt 4/Rocket Lake.

That wouldn't be a new design, that would be a new product.

 

[Azrael9]

The forthcoming Xbox One Series X and PS5 are both octacore consoles. It's become far easier to pile on cores than improving ultimate per thread clock speed which heavily favours well programmed software.

Certain unoptimised games and apps are still highly single threaded, which favours Intel but only in the highest SKUs with Ryzen improving fast.

I really can't see Apple removing the i9-10900K from their line-up as the BTO top option but the solution to that stares us in the face - with the iMac Pro case and cooling system.

The aforementioned tweet might be referring to the iMac, but what if it referred instead to an iBook? Both could be powered by A12z and would be worthy of an introduction in a WWDC. I can't see a compelling reason for introducing a new Intel iMac unless they had something to say about Thunderbolt 4/Rocket Lake.

We may get both.

The PS5 and Xbox next are going to push what consumers expect from machines in terms of visual power and fidelity....and for a commandingly low price. And also the paraidgm shift of IO/SSD opening new 'open' worlds in real time without the 'corridor' loading sequence of games. PCs, accordingly, are going to have to step up in performance and value. RDNA 2 is going to be a massive deal.

Intel were asleep at the wheel, AMD got in the ring with multicore and they're already piling on the pressure with single core. This will benefit programmers, creators, pros and consumers alike.

Designing the new Mac Pro shows the 'here and now' still matters to Apple. Likewise with the iMac. The flagship pro and consumer desktops must, be in lockstep, design wise. It isn't waiting until 2021 for a redesign.

ie. I don't see the iMac being left behind by the Mac Pro.

It was, afterall, the iMac that saved Apple. Not the pro. The blue and white G3 came after.

The Macbooks have had updates. (Can't rule out an ARM model making a surprise debut. But it's scheduled for 2021 by said rumours. So, a Dev' model as an outside bet...)

The iMac and iMac Pro are still...waiting.

As such, you're right. The solution is staring us in the face. £2k. 8 core xeon iMac Pro with teh cooling. Apple used to offer Mac Towers with Xeons in...? At reasonable prices? Or did I dream that?

Azrael.
[automerge]1591206341[/automerge]

If something in cul-de-sac it is intel. The Comet lake CPUs should draw half the power if they shrunk the nodes.

Intel's arrogance blinded them.

Azrael.

 

[satchmo]

Interesting thoughts. If absolute performance is the gain. I did note the 65w versions in the Intel slideshows.

We'll soon get to see.

Azrael.
[automerge]1591201297[/automerge]


Good catch, joblatho.

Confirming our optimistic instincts. (After all, why redesign the Mac Pro and not the iMac...)

...could it be a ground up redesign that eGamer Mac lovers have longed for...? "POW-URRRRRRR!"

*lays back in recline pose.

Now...what will that 'new' design look like...

3 weeks to go?

Azrael.

While I'd love to see a radical approach, i.e Surface Studio, I doubt it'll happen.
Realistically, I think we'll see something structually the same as today but with a boxier monitor casing perhaps in space grey.

 

[gusping]

Finally. WWDC here we come.

32in, completely redesigned, 10-core, 5700 XT iMac here we come..... Must lower expectations.

 

[sublunar]

That wouldn't be a new design, that would be a new product.

True. And in that case it would be a rare decision where they had a spec bump ready but pulled it in favour of a design that presumably takes in Comet Lake and RDNA while NOT being offered in a silver iMac Pro case for the 27".

Who knows what they'll do with the 21.5" though - I would bring up my iMac Air idea where the innards are actually Comet Lake H 45w CPUs. They obviously run cooler and would work with the RDNA GPUs.

 

[DrRadon]

Intel Core i9-10900K tested and compared with Ryzen 9 3900X/3950X - VideoCardz.com

Intel’s flagship Comet Lake-S CPU goes against Ryzen 9 series. Intel Core i9-10900K vs Ryzen 9 3950X An early review of the Core i9-10900K has been published ahead of the official embargo. The sample tested by TecLab appears to be a retail version, meaning there should be no reason to believe...

videocardz.com

The cpu dog fight continues.

Meanwhile, we 'wait on' for the next iMac.

Azrael.

With my 2012 iMac a mediocre ? strapped to the back of a ? would probably faster than what i got. I mostly wait out "new iMac" so it hopefully lasts a year longer in the end rather than worrying wich exact processor squeezes out another 3%. ?‍♂️

 

[Azrael9]

While I'd love to see a radical approach, i.e Surface Studio, I doubt it'll happen.
Realistically, I think we'll see something structually the same as today but with a boxier monitor casing perhaps in space grey.

When M$'s Desktop Studio pulled Apple's design trousers down in public on about the same day Apple gave us the pathetic 'touch strip' on the Macbook Pro, it felt like the kind of moment that would not have happened under Steve Job's watch. A true changing of the guard between old and new Apple.

Mac Pro (though absurdly priced...) is proof Apple isn't 'done' yet.

And that iStale products of evolved nature need the 'shake of the bag' that the iMac is supposed to be the flagship of.

Design innovation.

In short, satchmo, I agree with you 100%.

Azrael.
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32in, completely redesigned, 10-core, 5700 XT iMac here we come..... Must lower expectations.

Maybe we're getting that 32 inch 'whole lotta love' screen after all.

10 cores.

5700XT.

*opens wallet waiting.

'Apple...APPLE....'

Meet the Surface Studio 2 – The Ultimate Creative Studio – Microsoft Surface

Create, paint and edit at light speed on the New Surface Studio 2. Unlock immersive experiences on the fully adjustable and versatile 28″ touchscreen, now with Intel® Core™ i7 processors.

www.microsoft.com

Truly stunning. If only the cpu and gpu were just 'a bit' better. Oh...and it ran Mac OS. Or iOS....

Azrael.

 

[DrRadon]

That twitter link has six letters behind the i. Only thing that fits would be iMacPro. Well ok, and iPadPro.