Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?

[dragje]

It IS whining, what action are y’all doing to stop/voice you guys don’t like it? Are y’all selling your iPhones right this second? Most aren’t, are y’all making petitions? I haven’t seen a single post about one in here. it’s all bark in these posts and no bite. And yes I understand the implications of what it brings.

It’s to simplistic to state it this way.

First, let’s drop the stigma that it’s all just “whining”. You don’t have to put labels on people just because you disagree, it makes any given argument weaker, not stronger.

Second, the poll is very clear, there is an option for those who do like to sell their iPhone because of this CSAM, others won’t but are concerned.

Again, respect each others opinion, it’s not “whining” it’s just not your opinion.

like I’ve said, I’m in between. I like my iPhone and will not sell it because of this, but I do agree with the critics when they point out the potential dangers of CSAM.

For instance, Apple is stating that a scan will only occur within the Foto apps when things are uploaded to the cloud. If you don’t want this you can put of this functionality. But foto’s is extremely integrated within iOS and from the foto app you can easily do everything with your foto’s. So in practice it’s not really an option to turn it off.
Then you have Apple stating that they will not agree with demands from governments towards Apple stating that they should filter on other signs as well. I don’t thing Apple will refuge such demands if, for instance, China, creates a law stating Apple should comply. Apple will nit stop selling iPhones in China to make a stand.
They, Apple, all-ready have put their iCloud servers for the Chinese customers on China territory. Also by law from the Chinese government.

Meaning, Apple could state that they won’t do anything else besides scanning for explicit unwanted pictures of child abuse but history learns that a company can easily be forced to change policy when loosing big sales are on the table for discussion.

So to conclude, it’s not all just “whining” what people do, there are legitimate reasons for concerns.

 

[ponzicoinbro]

Nobody made any noise about Microsoft’s PhotoDNA being used by by Gmail, Twitter, Facebook, Adobe, Reddit and Discord.

PhotoDNA - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

PhotoDNA | Microsoft

PhotoDNA is used by organizations around the world and has assisted in the detection, disruption, and reporting of millions of child exploitation images.

www.microsoft.com

Apple’s version is better because it stops abusive images being shared in the first place and gives the user the choice to disable it and change their behavior (ie. Please don’t use our servers for your illegal behavior).

 

[Mega ST]

Their servers could block legally forbidden content after searching it there.

 

[mrsmith1]

Mike Hall, a software developer and skeptic, talks about CSCAM and the possible implications on the always excellent Skeptics with a K podcast. The piece is about 2:30 into the podcast

Episode #309

Podcast Episode · Skeptics with a K · 08/19/2021 · 1h 3m

podcasts.apple.com

 

[LeeW]

but so far there is no evidence that either Microsoft or Google are putting scanning software on the devices themselves.

Not sure it is the same position when it comes to Microsoft/Google. Not looked at their EULAs recently, but both had clauses in there that you give them access rights to all your files including images. Whether stored on the device or in their cloud. No need to take the step of adding scanning software, it is already there.

Are they doing what Apple is intending, I don't think so but the option is already there is really my point. And they don't need to notify you of what they are doing.

Now EULAs may have changed but that was my current understanding.

 

[hans1972]

Why are you parsing like a shady lawyer? You're going to stick with Apple, and some others aren't. It's getting pretty pedantic with this "committed to protecting privacy" vs "privacy is the most important thing."

I am some others have decided that privacy isn't as important to Apple as it is to us.

I reacted to the following claim:

eltoslightfoot said:
"Except when they do...the code for this scanning on device was there since 14.3, which they said it wasn't. They said privacy was the most important thing--except in China, or whenever it becomes financially unfeasable."

Why use an untrue statement in the argument?
It weakens the argument.

He could have used "They said privacy is an important thing" or "They said privacy is a fundamental human right" or "They said privacy is one of the most important thing" and it would be easier to support.

We all have an intellectual duty to represent other peoples and entities opinions and actions in a truthful and correct manner.

I could make an argument that customer trust is more important to Apple than privacy by providing better evidence than some people have done here for privacy.

 

[TinaBelcher]

I'm confused about it. I've never used iCloud Photos, however, I do use iCloud for everything else including iMessage, where I send pictures once in a while to friends and family. Will they have access to those photos? I don't feel comfortable having Apple looking at my stuff, and the thought of switching has crossed my mind.... but oh God, Android just doesn't take photos the way iPhone does...

 

[hans1972]

Well for those that act like there is nothing that can be done. There are options other than completely leaving. I for one do not use Apple's ecosystem. One thing you can do is discontinue Apple services. OneDrive is an excellent alternative and it has applications for all Apple products. I have never used iCloud simple because when it debut is was extremely limited compared to OneDrive and DropBox, which is another alternative. In addition I use Amazon music, also available on all Apple products. You don't have to completely leave Apple to send a message. Now there is nothing, short of never updating that you can do about the intrusive software on your devices, but you can stop using the services that it supposedly it is using to flag items with.

There are two groups who have really few good choices, if any:

A. Can't have any scanning software on their device

B. Can't use services which scans their data/content

You seem to think about iCloud as somewhere you store all your files like OneDrive or Dropbox. This feature isn't really why people use iCloud, historically at least, but rather:

• iCloud Photo Library (all your photos synced between Apple devices and some protection against loss)
• Storage and synchronization of contacts (and to a certain degree calendar and reminders) between devices
• Storage and synchronization of notes between devices
• Find my iPhone (or what's it called now)
• Synchronization of login information between devices

No most of it can be replaced and iCloud Photo Library can be replaced by Google Photos as long as you don't mind the scanning occurring on their servers.

 

[CasualFanboy]

I’m not absolving Apple of anything. I’m talking about the people that are switching away to different platforms that think that’s going to solve their problems.

My platform will switch to either BSD or Linux. That puts me in a much more privacy-friendly situation. Part of it is obscurity through lower general usage, another part is that neither project exists as a multinational corporation.

It doesn't guarantee any protection or privacy. The tools remain neutral on that subject, and you're pretty much 100% responsible for your own level of safety & privacy. I'm ok with that responsibility staying with me.

 

[CasualFanboy]

I reacted to the following claim:

eltoslightfoot said:
"Except when they do...the code for this scanning on device was there since 14.3, which they said it wasn't. They said privacy was the most important thing--except in China, or whenever it becomes financially unfeasable."

Why use an untrue statement in the argument?
It weakens the argument.

He could have used "They said privacy is an important thing" or "They said privacy is a fundamental human right" or "They said privacy is one of the most important thing" and it would be easier to support.

We all have an intellectual duty to represent other peoples and entities opinions and actions in a truthful and correct manner.

I could make an argument that customer trust is more important to Apple than privacy by providing better evidence than some people have done here for privacy.

Fair enough.

I just think parsing at this level in an informal setting is over-thinking this. When I see the phrase, "what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone" my interpretation is in stark contradiction to "some of the images on your iPhone may be scanned without explicit consent and may be shared with other unspecified entities."

 

[Expos of 1969]

.. and the thought of switching has crossed my mind.... but oh God, Android just doesn't take photos the way iPhone does...

Many will disagree with that statement unless you mean that Android doesn't take poor photos like iPhone does...

 

[TinaBelcher]

Many will disagree with that statement unless you mean that Android doesn't take poor photos like iPhone does...

I don't care whatever people disagree or agree with me. It's my opinion and experience. iPhone has the best overall camera, Pixel has best photo camera, Samsung.... i enjoy their tribute to the 2011 color oversaturation that was in style when instagram launched.

 

[jseymour]

... all the people that aren’t happy, all they have to do is turn off iCloud photos and nothing changes.

No, because the scanning engine will still be on their devices, ready to pounce at the flip of a switch.

Nobody made any noise about Microsoft’s PhotoDNA being used by by Gmail, Twitter, Facebook, Adobe, Reddit and Discord.

Perhaps because it's not being run on their personal devices?

Apple’s version is better ...

In your opinion. In my opinion it is an intolerable invasion of privacy and security risk. I will not use devices that come pre-loaded with spyware. Period.

Once again, I ask: Can any of Apple's defenders cite one single credible security professional, organization, or group, or privacy group or organization, that's expressed support for Apple's plans? I'd like to see arguments from something other than an "I trust Apple" perspective, because, so far, that's all Apple's defenders have presented, and that's pretty weak tea.

 

[jseymour]

I just think parsing at this level in an informal setting is over-thinking this.

That's a real... Christian... way of putting it

He's being pedantic. Nobody's going to pull a publicity stunt that reads like a contract, and that's what @hans1972 is demanding. The billboard clearly suggests what your put on your iPhone (and, I'd argue, by extension, iCloud) remains yours.

Then there's Tim Cook's open letter (which, I'll note, has since gone missing from Apple's servers), which clearly suggests your data is your data, not Apple's or anybody else's, and Apple would defend that to the death. (Yes: Hyperbole. So sue me.) From the aforementioned open letter:

At Apple, your trust means everything to us. That's why we respect your privacy and protect it with strong encryption ...
...
Finally, I want to be absolutely clear that we have never worked with any government agency from any country to create a backdoor in any of our products or services. We have also never allowed access to our servers. And we never will.

Except neither of those is quite so true, anymore, is it, Mr. Cook? No wonder you pulled your open letter. It turned out to be a lie. Unfortunately, for you and Apple, the Internet remembers everything. (I used to cite that letter to critics of Apple, even after Apple had pulled it. I certainly won't be doing that anymore.)

When I see the phrase, "what happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone" my interpretation is in stark contradiction to "some of the images on your iPhone may be scanned without explicit consent and may be shared with other unspecified entities."

Exactly. I'd wager this is the way anybody who's not trying to make a weak case for their contrary position would see it, too.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I’ve been thinking about this some more, and the bottom line is that CSAM is the reason I am leaving (and in the case of my Mac—left). However, Apple’s lackluster focus on quality and the details over the last several years have made this decision rather easier. I can no longer dual boot macs and still use x64 programs on windows. The last couple of Mac OS iterations focus on dumbing down the Mac into sort of an iOS plus environment. There are stutters and pauses even on top-of-the-line devices. iPad OS still doesn’t work like a Mac—yet they charge a premium.

Basically I can get a similar experience for less money and strangely now have more granular control over my setup as the environment is far more open.

Oh, and I don’t have preloaded spyware on my computer.

 

[Mendota]

Not sure it is the same position when it comes to Microsoft/Google. Not looked at their EULAs recently, but both had clauses in there that you give them access rights to all your files including images. Whether stored on the device or in their cloud. No need to take the step of adding scanning software, it is already there.

Are they doing what Apple is intending, I don't think so but the option is already there is really my point. And they don't need to notify you of what they are doing.

Now EULAs may have changed but that was my current understanding.

Google makes it clear that anything using their services is fair game. I read their EULA. This is why I don't use Google's cloud. In fact, not too long ago, it was revealed that Google had given a YouTuber's video to a OEM phone maker to use in their own ads. The YouTuber had no recourse and received no compensation. Therefore, I will not put any of my original art or 3D work on Google Drive.

I have also read Microsoft's EULA, and yes, they state that they will scan OneDrive and will not permit illegal activity, but they will not use or distribute your personal files. And the only files they have access to are the ones that are selected for OneDrive. There is no evidence that anyone else is doing exactly what Apple is proposing here. Now many people might not care, and some will say what is the difference? But there is a difference. It is up to the individual how much it matters to them. For myself Apple is not my primary system, so it does not matter to me personally, but for those to whom it does matter, they have to decide how much.

My view is that Apple having made an issue out of claiming that privacy was goal one, would come up with something like this. I think they are now in a difficult situation.

 

[zkap]

I agree with those that find it very difficult to stomach this not just because of the privacy aspect, but because of Apple doing this after marketing privacy for so long. They constantly made a big deal about how privacy is their utmost priority, so now they're going to get the backlash because of it.

Personally, I'm partly disappointed, partly pissed off and partly embarrassed. Disappointed because this means I'll only be using my current Apple products with their current software, no updates or upgrades, that's over with. It's disappointing to know that I'll gradually stop using this ecosystem because I like it. I'm pissed off because I feel cheated by Apple. I never thought I had absolute privacy, but I did believe Apple provided something better than the rest, and by a considerable margin. I wasn't sorry for the extra expense of paying their premium because I thought I was getting a better package. And I'm embarrassed because I fell for it. Imagine, I believed what was being said to me by a large company. I suppose I had it coming, oh well.

I now can't resist but vote with my wallet. I don't expect anything better with other companies, but at least I won't be lied to blatantly for years and I will spend far less money. Today I received the monthly Apple Music subscription bill e-mail. Usually I just delete those and not think twice about it, but today for the first time I felt uneasy about that money being paid to Apple. That is now going to Spotify. Next I'll have to deal with iCloud replacement and I am putting that off because it's a hassle.

The more time passes, the angrier I get over this. On the plus side guys, I decided to buy a new car. Instead of paying installments on the upgrades to my Apple ecosystem every year, I'll cancel the services I use, pay off my car using some of the money that would go to Apple and when that's done, transition to other devices. Everything's going but the Mac, that I cannot leave because I can't stand Windows, but the Mac is staying on Big Sur anyways. So at the very least, the decision to purchase a car got a lot easier.

Can't get over the fact they spent so much time jamming privacy talk down our throats only to serve this up. I know other devices won't offer more privacy (they'll offer less, in fact), but I will also pay less and send Apple a big thanks for all of this by voting with my wallet. I'll make a real effort to make sure no money from me goes to Apple if there is any way I can avoid it.

 

[MrTSolar]

I like Spofity, but I choose Amazon Music because 1, I get a discount from being a prime member, it only cost $8 a month. 2, I like to purchase a lot of music and Spofity doesn't have that ability.

Was the continued misspelling of Spotify ("Spofity") intentional?

I'm kinda mad that I prepaid for a year of Apple Music, but I guess there's little harm in enjoying my 2018 HomePods that much longer. I'm already in the process of replacing the Mac (new/old computer was installed last night and blows the Air away in speed on just about everything, which is pretty impressive for a 7 year old low-spec Dell running Windows 10). Oh, and it can play real games like Forza Horizon, not the "racing" games on the app store where the car drives itself. The iPad and Apple Watch haven't been touched in weeks, but the iPhone remains the challenge. The iPod nano does really good at playing music, and in a listening test, the wired EarPods sound the same as my AirPods Pro, and actually a bit more natural without the airtight seal of the Pros.

Research and testing continues.

 

[jseymour]

Personally, I'm partly disappointed, partly pissed off and partly embarrassed. Disappointed because this means I'll only be using my current Apple products with their current software, no updates or upgrades, that's over with.

Welll... it seems there will at least be "important security updates" if you choose to remain with iOS/iPadOS 14.x:
https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/07/apple-wont-make-you-upgrade-to-ios-15/

From the article:

Or continue on iOS 14 and still get important security updates until you're ready to upgrade to the next major version.

That'll at least give those of us who don't like this whole on-device scanning scheme some breathing room.

It's disappointing to know that I'll gradually stop using this ecosystem because I like it.

I've actually backed partially out of it already. In fact: To the point that I'd have to start divesting myself of devices to get any further out.

I'm pissed off because I feel cheated by Apple.

I'm with ya there!

And I'm embarrassed because I fell for it.

I'm embarrassed because I've been pitching Apple to my Android-using friends and now I have to say "Uh, never mind."

 

[Mendota]

I agree with those that find it very difficult to stomach this not just because of the privacy aspect, but because of Apple doing this after marketing privacy for so long. They constantly made a big deal about how privacy is their utmost priority, so now they're going to get the backlash because of it.

Personally, I'm partly disappointed, partly pissed off and partly embarrassed. Disappointed because this means I'll only be using my current Apple products with their current software, no updates or upgrades, that's over with. It's disappointing to know that I'll gradually stop using this ecosystem because I like it. I'm pissed off because I feel cheated by Apple. I never thought I had absolute privacy, but I did believe Apple provided something better than the rest, and by a considerable margin. I wasn't sorry for the extra expense of paying their premium because I thought I was getting a better package. And I'm embarrassed because I fell for it. Imagine, I believed what was being said to me by a large company. I suppose I had it coming, oh well.

I now can't resist but vote with my wallet. I don't expect anything better with other companies, but at least I won't be lied to blatantly for years and I will spend far less money. Today I received the monthly Apple Music subscription bill e-mail. Usually I just delete those and not think twice about it, but today for the first time I felt uneasy about that money being paid to Apple. That is now going to Spotify. Next I'll have to deal with iCloud replacement and I am putting that off because it's a hassle.

The more time passes, the angrier I get over this. On the plus side guys, I decided to buy a new car. Instead of paying installments on the upgrades to my Apple ecosystem every year, I'll cancel the services I use, pay off my car using some of the money that would go to Apple and when that's done, transition to other devices. Everything's going but the Mac, that I cannot leave because I can't stand Windows, but the Mac is staying on Big Sur anyways. So at the very least, the decision to purchase a car got a lot easier.

Can't get over the fact they spent so much time jamming privacy talk down our throats only to serve this up. I know other devices won't offer more privacy (they'll offer less, in fact), but I will also pay less and send Apple a big thanks for all of this by voting with my wallet. I'll make a real effort to make sure no money from me goes to Apple if there is any way I can avoid it.

Well, I like Windows, but if you don't, I recommend KDE Plasma Linux. It is outstanding, stable, beautiful to look at, configurable, and paired with Ubuntu studio has all the applications in all major areas. This includes graphics, video, music, and productivity.

 

[Mendota]

Was the continued misspelling of Spotify ("Spofity") intentional?

I'm kinda mad that I prepaid for a year of Apple Music, but I guess there's little harm in enjoying my 2018 HomePods that much longer. I'm already in the process of replacing the Mac (new/old computer was installed last night and blows the Air away in speed on just about everything, which is pretty impressive for a 7 year old low-spec Dell running Windows 10). Oh, and it can play real games like Forza Horizon, not the "racing" games on the app store where the car drives itself. The iPad and Apple Watch haven't been touched in weeks, but the iPhone remains the challenge. The iPod nano does really good at playing music, and in a listening test, the wired EarPods sound the same as my AirPods Pro, and actually a bit more natural without the airtight seal of the Pros.

Research and testing continues.

No, I was typing in the dark on an unlit keyboard. Yes, Windows 10 can't be beat for gaming, in fact it has been very good to me for everything. I have always used Amazon music, because I like to purchase and grow my music library.
Edit to add: My sound system is Sonas and Klipsch speakers.

 

[dk001]

Since you asked. 😁😂

View attachment 1821264

Do any networks still support this?

 

[LFC2020]

Do any networks still support this?

Probably not. 😂

 

[MrTSolar]

Probably not. 😂

No, but the new Nokia 3310 works. Saw them on the rack at Target a few months ago.

 

[MrTSolar]

No, I was typing in the dark on an unlit keyboard. Yes, Windows 10 can't be beat for gaming, in fact it has been very good to me for everything. I have always used Amazon music, because I like to purchase and grow my music library.
Edit to add: My sound system is Sonas and Klipsch speakers.

Just checking. Thought that was going to become a thing. 😆