Will you leave the Apple ecosystem because of CSAM?

[dellaster]

Have I dumped Apple over just this issue? Nope. It was a matter of being on the edge of leaving and this being the last straw. Are others more privacy oriented? Of course not, but better the devil that I know is a devil than a devil pretending to be an angel. I can be aware of what I need to be on guard about, not blindsided by a sneaky turn-about that's contrary to expectations. That pisses me off. Yes, this last straw is an emotional reaction. I never liked Apple better than the others (felt this way since the year after bought my first Mac in 1984); in recent years, however, they had the advantage of being serious about user privacy (or so I naively thought).

I no longer feel good about using Apple products, as I did when I believed their privacy stance, so they're gone or going: I'm writing this on a Galaxy S21 Ultra (traded iPhone 12 mini), Galaxy Watch 4 on order (trading Series 6 SE watch), Galaxy Buds Pro sit next to me (I'm trashing my original Airpods, haven't used them for years anyway). iPad mini 5 LTE will be sold—after some use I feel that the S21 Ultra can fill that role, too. My old iPhone SE (2016) I'll keep in the cupboard as backup for now.

Rail against me as you wish. I'm gone. And I feel great about it.

 

[jseymour]

I voted "Yes, but I'll use iOS 14 for a while." As I noted here: I've already begun backing out of the Apple ecosystem.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I voted "Yes, but I'll use iOS 14 for a while." As I noted here: I've already begun backing out of the Apple ecosystem.

That was very well stated (your other post).

 

[MrTSolar]

It IS whining, what action are y’all doing to stop/voice you guys don’t like it? Are y’all selling your iPhones right this second? Most aren’t, are y’all making petitions? I haven’t seen a single post about one in here. it’s all bark in these posts and no bite. And yes I understand the implications of what it brings.

I'm cancelling my iCloud subscription as a start, not updating to iOS 15, and will be selling off a few of my Apple devices (might try to get Apple to buy back as a protest, but not sure about that yet). I'm definitely spreading the word about what's happening in my circles.

I may not completely jump out of Apple products now (considering most are relatively new), but I'm not buying any more.

 

[MrTSolar]

I'm not fine with CSAM, but I won't change anything I do because of that.

If people think it's a good idea to quit Apple to go for Google Android, I'm lost for words.

Who said anything about Google? I'm thinking Librem 5, flip phone, or phoneless. Been jones'ing to daily drive my iPod nano again.

 

[MrTSolar]

Have I dumped Apple over just this issue? Nope. It was a matter of being on the edge of leaving and this being the last straw. Are others more privacy oriented? Of course not, but better the devil that I know is a devil than a devil pretending to be an angel. I can be aware of what I need to be on guard about, not blindsided by a sneaky turn-about that's contrary to expectations. That pisses me off. Yes, this last straw is an emotional reaction. I never liked Apple better than the others (felt this way since the year after bought my first Mac in 1984); in recent years, however, they had the advantage of being serious about user privacy (or so I naively thought).

I no longer feel good about using Apple products, as I did when I believed their privacy stance, so they're gone or going: I'm writing this on a Galaxy S21 Ultra (traded iPhone 12 mini), Galaxy Watch 4 on order (trading Series 6 SE watch), Galaxy Buds Pro sit next to me (I'm trashing my original Airpods, haven't used them for years anyway). iPad mini 5 LTE will be sold—after some use I feel that the S21 Ultra can fill that role, too. My old iPhone SE (2016) I'll keep in the cupboard as backup for now.

Rail against me as you wish. I'm gone. And I feel great about it.

Huh, many of my same devices (12 mini, SE, and 2016 SE).

I was timidly trusting Apple after being betrayed by Google years ago and was anti-smartphone for a while. I had just gotten comfortable with everything I've bought in the last year, but I see that was a mistake. I might keep the 2018 HomePods for a while, though. The other Apple devices in my collection will go when they are no longer needed or no longer work correctly. iCloud is dead to me.

 

[Samdh90]

I am not worried about the CSAM scanning because other vendors have been doing this for years. Apple decides to do it and everyone freaks out...

 

[Moto68000]

I am not worried about the CSAM scanning because other vendors have been doing this for years. Apple decides to do it and everyone freaks out...

There's a difference. Other vendors have the scanning software running on their server and that software can only scan what YOU feed it by uploading your images.

Apple CSAM software runs on your device. It basicly can scan all the mages on your phone, but Apple promises that it only scans your images before uploading them to the cloud.

But do we believe that promise? The software is already present on your device...

 

[PsykX]

Who said anything about Google? I'm thinking Librem 5, flip phone, or phoneless. Been jones'ing to daily drive my iPod nano again.

OSes other than Android and iOS represent less than 1% of the market share. So let's be realistic for a second. Nearly all people who want to quit iOS because of CSAM almost have to opt for an Android phone because this is the market. Your other options are good (flip phone, no phone or iPod nano), but once again, you are clearly a minority if you do that.

If you want a smartphone, it really goes down to one thing : You have to pick you poison.

A company that's making privacy a #1 priority, who dares to say it out loud when they cross the line?
Or another company who's been profiling you nearly every single ***** day since the 90s, without ever asking you?

 

[jseymour]

OSes other than Android and iOS represent less than 1% of the market share. So let's be realistic for a second.

Not certain of what is your point. I don't really care what other people do. I'm looking out for my interests. If those interests lie with something like LineageOS on a Pixel or whatever, then that's where they lie. How much market share they have is meaningless to me.

 

[QueenTyrone]

I'm cancelling my iCloud subscription as a start, not updating to iOS 15, and will be selling off a few of my Apple devices (might try to get Apple to buy back as a protest, but not sure about that yet). I'm definitely spreading the word about what's happening in my circles.

I may not completely jump out of Apple products now (considering most are relatively new), but I'm not buying any more.

Honestly, good for you (not sarcasm ). I stopped using iCloud photos and such before the whole csam thing anyway because cost wise it was a waste for me. Was already testing not needing backup or keychain so it doesn’t really bother me much. I said I will probably update to a 13 and I probably still will.

 

[alexdelta]

It’s literally the pedos who are scared

 

[Jayson A]

There's a difference. Other vendors have the scanning software running on their server and that software can only scan what YOU feed it by uploading your images.

Apple CSAM software runs on your device. It basicly can scan all the mages on your phone, but Apple promises that it only scans your images before uploading them to the cloud.

But do we believe that promise? The software is already present on your device...

Yes I believe that promise because Apple controls ALL the software on your device. If they wanted to do harm, they had every chance to in the past. I think they’re being open and honest with us about what’s happening and how they’re handling it and there’s absolutely no reason for me to believe they just gave up on privacy. If anything, I think they’re trying to give you more privacy by having the scan done locally. They DON’T wanna know what images you have, unless you’re a pedophile, in which case I hope you get caught.

 

[jseymour]

It’s literally the pedos who are scared

Yeah, the EFF are pedos: If You Build It, They Will Come: Apple Has Opened the Backdoor to Increased Surveillance and Censorship Around the World So are all the other network, security, and privacy professionals and organizations around the world that feel this an astoundingly bad idea on Apple's part.

 

[MrTSolar]

Yes I believe that promise because Apple controls ALL the software on your device. If they wanted to do harm, they had every chance to in the past. I think they’re being open and honest with us about what’s happening and how they’re handling it and there’s absolutely no reason for me to believe they just gave up on privacy. If anything, I think they’re trying to give you more privacy by having the scan done locally. They DON’T wanna know what images you have, unless you’re a pedophile, in which case I hope you get caught.

It's not necessarily Apple I'm worried about. It's the sources for the hash databases and the possibility that this expands to include non-iCloud Photos content. The only way for Apple to verify that the hashes are known CSAM is for our content to be flagged and reviewed by Apple staff. They aren't being given known CSAM material to perform the hashing that builds the database. Then there's the whole premise that you have to submit to this just by having the device. With 100% server-side scanning, there's at least the option of avoiding it by not using the cloud service. We no longer have that choice with it being part of the OS, unless we never save or take photos on any Apple device.

I like how there's an argument that "it's only for photos being sent to iCloud." The problem with that statement is that you are either all-in or all-out on iCloud Photos. There is no selective sync. The entire photo library goes to iCloud when enabled. I wouldn't be surprised one-bit if around iOS 15.3 that CSAM scanning either moves entirely on-device (and independent of iCloud) or that cable sync to a Mac disappears.

E2E encryption for iCloud is pretty much pointless if data is searched before it's encrypted, so there's that argument out the window if this is a stepping stone.

 

[mattdeezy]

I find it strange that people would leave apple over this. Especially given that their only other option is to go to Android which potentially puts them at higher risk of malware that exposes their data to people with actually nefarious intentions.

 

[mattdeezy]

It's not necessarily Apple I'm worried about. It's the sources for the hash databases and the possibility that this expands to include non-iCloud Photos content. The only way for Apple to verify that the hashes are known CSAM is for our content to be flagged and reviewed by Apple staff. They aren't being given known CSAM material to perform the hashing that builds the database. Then there's the whole premise that you have to submit to this just by having the device. With 100% server-side scanning, there's at least the option of avoiding it by not using the cloud service. We no longer have that choice with it being part of the OS, unless we never save or take photos on any Apple device.

I like how there's an argument that "it's only for photos being sent to iCloud." The problem with that statement is that you are either all-in or all-out on iCloud Photos. There is no selective sync. The entire photo library goes to iCloud when enabled. I wouldn't be surprised one-bit if around iOS 15.3 that CSAM scanning either moves entirely on-device (and independent of iCloud) or that cable sync to a Mac disappears.

E2E encryption for iCloud is pretty much pointless if data is searched before it's encrypted, so there's that argument out the window if this is a stepping stone.

So you are concerned that you can't selectively sync? Describe the photos for me that you would choose not to sync? Are you worried that photos of your own child might turn up in a CSAM list?

Edit: saw your response in the other thread about a government agency slipping a hash for political content in the hash list.

 

[MrTSolar]

So you are concerned that you can't selectively sync? Describe the photos for me that you would choose not to sync? Are you worried that photos of your own child might turn up in a CSAM list?

Selective Sync would be a nice option. That way I don't have to pay for the full 2 TB of iCloud just so my phone, iPad, and MacBook all automatically update with the latest photos. Maybe Photo Stream is the option that would actually work for me if I didn't just condemn iCloud over this.

My problem lies with the talking point that makes it seem that only a portion of the images on iPhones go to iCloud, apparently in a downplay to how invasive this scan can become. That's not how this works. It is all or nothing when it comes to photo sync with iCloud.

I'm not worried that any photos on my devices would be part of this list specifically because I don't save pictures from the internet. I don't do anything that would put me on any radar. That said, I disagree with the approach that Apple is taking. Processing dictation on-device enhances privacy. Using on-device AI to bundle photos by object recognition or location instead of cloud AI enhances privacy. Using on-device scanning to report possibly illegal content with no choice to opt-out without severe loss of functionality destroys privacy, especially when it is completely useless on any newly distributed content. This is like fighting termites by burning down your house: there are better options.

I use Apple products because they work well together most of the time, and the company at least tries to give the impression they care. More often than not, I can do independent testing and verify that Apple software and hardware performs better on security/privacy (Safari fingerprinting prevention, firewall, network activity, etc.). However, with the introduction of this system, they basically stated that they don't trust any of us and invited themselves to use our electricity on our devices to look for content that could land us in jail. When a relationship turns abusive, I end it, no matter the justification even if I agree with the cause. As I exit the Apple ecosystem, I can tell you that I certainly won't be switching to Android/Google or modern Microsoft. I've already been down those roads in the past (Google should know, they recorded every movement I made for 2 years without my permission). My DSLR is happy to store whatever pictures I take without stabbing me in the back. My iPod nano doesn't care where I get my music. It'll play any MP3 file I put on it and not stop 15 seconds in if it doesn't have an internet connection like my iPhone does. That doesn't mean I'm doing anything malicious, it just means that I have control of those tools and not the other way around. I don't have to worry about my paper notepad sharing data with the manufacturer.

 

[dannyyankou]

My answer is like a 5th option. Won't leave, want to turn off iCloud Photos, but I'm scared of losing everything so I probably won't.

 

[MuppetGate]

Define a “backdoor” please. Would you also call an anti-virus database regularly updated on your computer a backdoor?

The main issue here is that people suddenly do not trust Apple. And why not? Do you trust Google (Android) better and, if so, why?

I cannot find in Apple’s technical paper on child safety anything that rings any immediate alarm bells. They promise to resist any attempts to abuse this system or manipulate them into anything more sinister. So why not give them a chance?

An anti-virus database isn’t usually considered a back door because the user, most likely, installed it themselves, can narrow its scope or switch it off altogether. A lot of them will report back to the mother ship, but they will also alert you first.

But anti-virus software as a back door is certainly something that should be considered as a possibility:

Kaspersky Lab Has Been Working With Russian Intelligence

Emails show the software-security maker developed products for the FSB and accompanied agents on raids.

www.bloomberg.com

So why not give them a chance?

Because we already know that will comply with whatever laws are handed down to them by the country where they’re doing business. If China hands them a database and says they have to scan every Chinese phone for its contents, or leave the country, what do you think Apple will do?

Apple's Security Compromises in China Outlined in New Report

Apple has been making concessions on privacy and security in order to continue building and selling its devices in China, according to an in-depth...

www.macrumors.com

 

[Grey Area]

I voted "yes, immediately". It is fairly easy for me, as I was never deep into the ecosystem in the first place - mostly the iPhone, and I have always kept an Android in parallel and switched around regularly. My other hardware is mostly on Linux. Not sure how I would feel if I was more invested.

The CSAM detection is also not the sole reason, but the final one where I felt it got too much. I was already unhappy with a number of issues, large and small: the lack of support for open standards, the increasingly integrated/disposable hardware design, the willingness to submit to China (demonstrating that Apple will abandon its principles if profits are at risk). The introduction of the headphone volume warning system late last year made me cancel Apple Music - a fairly trivial issue in comparison, but with some parallels to the current scandal: there was a chorus of apologists claiming that it was necessary by law (it wasn't), that others did exactly the same (they didn't) or would introduce it (they haven't). It was Apple alone deciding what is best for us and installing a watchdog on the phone to keep the user in line.

I kept the iPhone around despite my other disagreements, because I thought Apple would at least stick to its guns regarding privacy in the West, if only because here it was more profitable for them to do so. The CSAM detector has burned that last bit of trust for me. I feel like my fundamental values are not compatible with those of Apple, or at least its management. To put it melodramatically, I am starting to see Apple as a danger to liberal society, and I do not wish to fund their continued operation.

In the future I will increase my efforts to move to open source software and to use hardware made in democratic countries.

 

[one more]

Because we already know that will comply with whatever laws are handed down to them by the country where they’re doing business. If China hands them a database and says they have to scan every Chinese phone for its contents, or leave the country, what do you think Apple will do?

Apple must comply with the laws of the jurisdictions it operates in, this is totally normal. However, they successfully managed to ward off the US federal government’s pressure to unlock an iPhone of a terrorist suspect. Right? So we cannot really accuse Apple of not protecting our privacy.

If you are concerned that the oppressive governments might use the tech against their own people, why not address this problem at its source? Resist it with political activism and educate people around you. ✌️

 

[MuppetGate]

What nobody seems to be understanding is that these countries could demand this at any time BEFORE Apple proposed this feature. The tech to do image recognition isn’t *that* new, and matching hashes is simpler.

This feature has NOT enabled what everyone seems to be afraid of. That happened a long time ago, and everyone is using the tech behind it.

As for Apple scanning pics that is about to be uploaded to iCloud, I have NO problem with it. I presume it is illegal for Apple to be storing child porn images on iCloud servers, they have a responsibility to do this if they can.

Well, countries (the US included) have been demanding back doors into devices for quite some time. This is the first time that any company complied with a method that can be extended to defeat any attempt at data encryption.

Microsoft, Google etc. carry out the scan on the server when the file arrives, then they report it to the authorities. The effect is exactly the same and works. The only difference is:

It cannot be extended by a change in the law to track everything you do on the phone, whether you upload the file or not.

It cannot impact the resources on your phone. (And there's something else I hadn't thought about: Microsoft, Facebook and Google run their operations on their own infrastructure; Apple runs its iCloud operations on Microsoft and Amazon servers, so I imagine the cost of running searches on every single photo uploaded to the Photos Cloud must be quite significant in terms of server resources, which Apple will be paying for.)

What I've noticed during these discussions is that an increasingly popular argument is that anyone who is against it must be a pedophile. Which is odd, because the people who're against it often state that they would prefer to have all their files scanned when they're sent to the server, which means the 'you must be a pedophile' argument is rubbish.

While searching for information on server side scanning, I came across articles on Google's DragonFly project. This was a China-only search service that would run would return results palatable to the Chinese government. The problem was that many detractors said it could be used to trace search terms back to users. Now, Google said that there would safeguards, but once their own employees started protesting (loudly) they had no choice but to declare it wasn't something they should be involved in and canned it.
Why? Because they saw the potential for abuse in the future. And this is Google we're talking about here. Google. The same company that we'd be all roasting over an open fire if they stood up and announced they were going to build a scanner into the Android OS and install the hashed values of illegal pornography on every phone.

Sorry, no one here would give Google a free pass on this, even if it is for the children, so I can't give a free pass to Apple, as much as I'd like to.

Apple must comply with the laws of the jurisdictions it operates in, this is totally normal. However, they successfully managed to ward off the US federal government’s pressure to unlock an iPhone of a terrorist suspect. Right? So we cannot really accuse Apple of not protecting our privacy.

If you are concerned that the oppressive governments might use the tech against their own people, why not address this problem at its source? Resist it with political activism and educate people around you. ✌️

Apple may have done well in the US, but they totally caved in China, and will continue to do so, because that's where their phones are made (not the US) and that's where there is still a significant potential for long-term growth (more than the US) – as long as they tread carefully. And by 'treading carefully', I mean

I do protest with political activism, a lot. But it's easy for me to do because I don't live in the countries where the worst abuses of human rights occur on a regular basis. So educating people around me through the occasional talk to groups etc, is not really that hard. In fact the very least I can do is point out when I see a dangerous precedent being set that may have a detrimental affect on the lives of people in other countries in the future.

For some of us, "wait til it actually happens" is not good enough. Bizarrely, it wasn't good enough for Google.

 

[toomasjoamets]

There is one option missing in the poll. I'm not fine with it, but I'm not leaving either. I quite recently (a bit over year ago) bought my first ever Apple device, an iPhone. Now I also have Apple Watch and a Macbook Air with M1. No way I'm going back to Android/Windows. For those who consider leaving. Don't bother. The grass is not greener there and happy dog does not run into the sunset as you would expect. Android and Windows are ugly systems, they are by far not that user friendly and easy to use.

The truth is that Apple is very honest what is going to happen with CSAM. In other ecosystems the vendor just doesn't tell you anything. You have EULA, you have agreed not conduct any illegal activities and vendor has the right to obstruct illegal activities by end user terms and nobody will inform you about any countermeasures, because you already AGREED to everything. So unless you really are into kiddie porn I would suggest to ignore the whole thing.

I'm not happy with it, but I am happy about Apple being honest and transparent about it.

In the end of the day, we have to let go of some privacy in order to allow fighting crime and terrorism. Even if we don't care, the society as a whole cares and has agreed to that. It's not about just Apple, it's the tech industry that creates new options for crime and fighting crime has to happen on that tech too. There are a lot other privacy violations out there that just doesn't have enough reach in media, but are just the same as CSAM.

Should people just let go? No, CSAM scanning still is a privacy concern and people should tell openly that they care about their privacy. But on the other hand you should not go nuts over it either.

 

[MuppetGate]

I voted to stick with iOS14, which I would probably do anyway as I don't tend to use the first release of any piece of software.

What I'll do going forward is very hard to say. Even though Google has always been up front about what they're doing, I never really trusted them. Apple claimed to be the champions of privacy, and now they're not. So, I don't trust Apple either. 🤷‍♂️

I guess it just levels the playing field a bit for me: before, I would only look at Apple phones, I've now got a whole new range of gadgets that I can (carefully!) consider on their actual merits.


I've got a pile of gleeful Android-using friends who're happy to demo stuff on their phones (they won't stop offering), so I'll take them up on it and try a few out.

Definitely won't be looking at a new phone until I see the Pixel 6.

I can also see that I've become far too 'Apple-centric' when looking for services. Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but I need to get back to being 'cross-platform-first' in my thinking.