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nickdalzell1

macrumors 68030
Dec 8, 2019
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Steve Job was probably basing it on the fail of windows 8
Steve died in 2011. Windows 8 launched in October 2012. He had no way to know it would flop.

As for Chromebooks, they aren't for me. I no longer trust Google's long-term support. I don't like losing muscle memory or having forced updates I have no control over. I also have been burned by them getting rid of perfectly decent apps and replacing them with inferior alternatives.
 

sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,408
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where hip is spoken
The rise of Chrome OS probably bothers Microsoft more than macOS. I think it should bother Apple as well. Google rarely does something right and this is one rare example. Those devices are cheap and they cover 95% of what a Joe Normie wants from a computer. Apple should ship a cheap iPad + keyboard + trackpad combo to fight with it.
An iPad + keyboard w/trackpad is not a proper alternative to a chromebook. By "proper", I'm referring to being able to do things that are unique or specific to chromebooks.

There are so many things that chromebooks do that iPads can't (not even a fully equipped iPad Pro). Price is not the only reason why people buy chromebooks, so an inexpensive iPad configuration to compete might win a few people over but not enough to compensate for the loss of profit on a lower margin offering.

Most people have a very limited or obsolete understanding of what chromebooks are and what they can do. Apple is not concerned about chromebooks, at least not yet. They marketed to the education segment back in the day and they're now reaping the benefits of that investment as MacOS devices sell well and at higher margins to those who used Apple products in school.

Apple will start to be concerned if chromebook manufacturers begin producing iPad Pro-level quality/performance Chrome OS tablets. So far, there have only be 4 or 5 tablets and only one (the Lenovo Chromebook Duet) have been a success. But none of them rise to the level of quality/performance as an iPad Pro.
 

AutomaticApple

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As for the ghost town known as Windows Store MS blew it. They had the greatest OS market share. Devs didn't find it interesting enough to develop native apps. I read some actually tried to but MS worn them down. Same story for Windows Phone apps. Yes, MS could have had a coherent ecosystem.
That's about to change.
 

AutomaticApple

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Android has very low market share in the US. So I don’t know where you are going with this.

The Android CPU and GPU are like 5 years behind Apple so it not a problem.
Windows Phone would like to have a talk with you...

They're about two years behind, not five. They're only just now beginning to reach A13 (or was it A12?) levels of power.

Also...

Global​

Screenshot 2021-06-30 10.25.26 AM.png


United States​

Screenshot 2021-06-30 10.27.40 AM.png

ChromeOS is coming in very hot.


I agree that Apple is way ahead in many regards but most people don't need the best. They want to buy a cheap device that does what they want, so they get a Chromebook and get locked into Google's ecosystem.
Don't forget about Chromeboxes, Chromebases, Chromebits, Chromeblets, etc... ;)

They're all selling well. These days, most people just use their computers to browse the web.
 

AutomaticApple

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Steve died in 2011. Windows 8 launched in October 2012. He had no way to know it would flop.
Did he ever acknowledge Windows Phone? Windows Phone 7 came out a whole year before Steve Jobs died.

On top of that, did he ever acknowledge Chrome OS too? Chrome OS only came out a couple of months before Steve Jobs died.
I no longer trust Google's long-term support.
Chrome OS devices now receive eight years of support. I don't think there's anything to worry about.
Screenshot 2021-06-30 10.35.56 AM.png

But none of them rise to the level of quality/performance as an iPad Pro.
The Samsung Galaxy Chromebook came pretty close.
I don't like losing muscle memory or having forced updates I have no control over.
Updates happen in the background and are applied when you reboot the device. No need to worry about losing muscle memory! :)
Screenshot 2021-06-30 10.40.23 AM.png

I also have been burned by them getting rid of perfectly decent apps and replacing them with inferior alternatives.
You don't like Google's push towards RCS?
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
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The rise of Chrome OS probably bothers Microsoft more than macOS. I think it should bother Apple as well. Google rarely does something right and this is one rare example. Those devices are cheap and they cover 95% of what a Joe Normie wants from a computer. Apple should ship a cheap iPad + keyboard + trackpad combo to fight with it.
I think that's ultimately what they wanted to go after with WoA devices like the Surface Pro X, it's just that the SPX was massively overpriced for a 'chromebook' type device and other OEMs have been hesitant to make Arm powered devices so far with Microsoft's less than flattering history of chopping support unexpectedly and early. With the native Arm edge, the SPX is a pretty compelling device for people whose usage is 99% inside a browser, with perhaps the occasional use of a word processor or spreadsheet.
 

AutomaticApple

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I think that's ultimately what they wanted to go after with WoA devices like the Surface Pro X, it's just that the SPX was massively overpriced for a 'chromebook' type device and other OEMs have been hesitant to make Arm powered devices so far with Microsoft's less than flattering history of chopping support unexpectedly and early. With the native Arm edge, the SPX is a pretty compelling device for people whose usage is 99% inside a browser, with perhaps the occasional use of a word processor or spreadsheet.
Good news! :)
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
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Did he ever acknowledge Windows Phone? Windows Phone 7 came out a whole year before Steve Jobs died.

On top of that, did he ever acknowledge Chrome OS too? Chrome OS only came out a couple of months before Steve Jobs died.

I actually liked Windows Phone, it's just a shame Microsoft was horrendously late to the party, then messed up big time with the WP7 to WP8 transition which pretty much shot their chances with developers, then lost interest in continuing any development for WP8 and rushed out a buggy and unstable WP10. Given a chance I think the overall concept that balanced most of the benefits of both iOS and Android had a lot of potential.

Good news! :)
It definitely feels like Microsoft are actually committed to WoA for a change, particularly if the rumours around making their own Arm SoCs is accurate. Honestly I think they will need it to be a success as I don't think either Intel or even AMD's current trajectory is going to leave x86 competitive with what Apple is doing for too much longer otherwise!

perf-trajectory.png


 

AutomaticApple

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Installed Office insider for ARM yesterday. It's noticeably snappier than the x64 emulated version.

https://www.reddit.com/r/surfaceprox/comments/oa9it6
I'm really happy about Microsoft's commitment to ARM architecture. Apple needs some competition.
I apologize for not being more clear in my post... I was referring to tablets.
I know that. The Samsung Galaxy Chromebook has a display that can be rotated 360 degrees and also has a touchscreen. It can effectively be used as a tablet and is very impressive for such a thin display.
 

Harshan

macrumors member
Sep 26, 2014
38
22
Probably not. The main obstacles to switching are the applications, not the operating system. When I switched from Windows to Mac in 2005, the main headache was moving applications. "Side grades" to the Mac version were hard, and I ended up paying for everything twice. I also found out the hard way that getting the Mac version of my software wasn't good enough, because Windows developers don't know the Mac very well, or their Mac versions had a subset of the features of the Windows version—for example, Office for the Mac didn't include the database or page layout programs that I was using. I had to find analogous software, which even though it turned out to cost less and have more features, it was a pain.

Even if Windows were free, switching would be too costly and too difficult, especially for professionals. Most Windows users will be salivating from afar, or engaging in "sweet lemons" rationalization. They are stuck.
 

AutomaticApple

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I actually liked Windows Phone, it's just a shame Microsoft was horrendously late to the party, then messed up big time with the WP7 to WP8 transition which pretty much shot their chances with developers, then lost interest in continuing any development for WP8 and rushed out a buggy and unstable WP10. Given a chance I think the overall concept that balanced most of the benefits of both iOS and Android had a lot of potential.
The transition from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8 was necessary. Windows CE was horrendous and Microsoft was desperate to move towards Windows NT. The buggy transition from Windows Phone 8.1 to Windows 10 Mobile was inexcusable though. Very few devices supported the update to Windows 10 Mobile. Microsoft had officially scared OEMs away by that point. Nokia was the supreme Windows Phone manufacturer.

In terms of market share, Windows Phone peaked in late 2013. The Windows Store wasn't the wasteland it had been just a few years back.

Hubs were a huge benefit for Windows Phone. The People Hub is a great example of why. Microsoft then made the stupid decision to remove them in Windows Phone 8.1.

As you said, Windows Phone was the perfect balance of iOS and Android. Microsoft applied their desktop business model to Windows Phone (such as charging manufacturers a license fee in order to manufacture Windows Phones). Manufacturers didn't really have control over the software experience. No fragmentation due to ugly OEM skins!

The minimum requirements were also very high (sound familiar? :p). As a result, all devices were extremely fast and smooth when doing basically anything. The user interface was extremely fluid. Everything felt familiar across all devices.
It definitely feels like Microsoft are actually committed to WoA for a change, particularly if the rumours around making their own Arm SoCs is accurate. Honestly I think they will need it to be a success as I don't think either Intel or even AMD's current trajectory is going to leave x86 competitive with what Apple is doing for too much longer otherwise!

perf-trajectory.png


Google is also getting in on the fun.
Probably not. The main obstacles to switching are the applications, not the operating system. When I switched from Windows to Mac in 2005, the main headache was moving applications. "Side grades" to the Mac version were hard, and I ended up paying for everything twice. I also found out the hard way that getting the Mac version of my software wasn't good enough, because Windows developers don't know the Mac very well, or their Mac versions had a subset of the features of the Windows version—for example, Office for the Mac didn't include the database or page layout programs that I was using. I had to find analogous software, which even though it turned out to cost less and have more features, it was a pain.

Even if Windows were free, switching would be too costly and too difficult, especially for professionals. Most Windows users will be salivating from afar, or engaging in "sweet lemons" rationalization. They are stuck.
Office for Mac is still miles behind Office for Windows. :rolleyes:
 
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Harshan

macrumors member
Sep 26, 2014
38
22
Doubt it.

Here's hoping they announce the death of the Windows Registry. Now if it's a new kernel based off BSD like macOS. With something like Carbon for legacy software. Well that'd be a head scratcher. I just can't picture MS ever being that bold to dump the Registry and NT.

As for a new GUI. That's got me worried. Windows 8 was a mess. They really love to **** things up. Whether I love it or hate it. I'll have to use it. At least for a while to learn the ropes. Just so I can help clients when they have issues with a new computer. Without looking like an idiot. Not knowing where MS hid the settings. When on site.
The registry is a problem, but the root problem is that Microsoft is deeply enamored of databases. Macs contain several databases that add up to the function of the registry, but they only contain metadata. If a Mac database becomes corrupt, you can delete system databases in the Mac and rebuild them—which is what Mac utility software does. Windows databases, like the registry or the Outlook database contain the actual data, so if they become corrupt, you have to reinstall everything.

There is no compelling UI attraction in switching. Windows 11 introduces Mac Window management, the Mac dock, Mac Widgets, and other Mac UI features.
Doubt it.

Here's hoping they announce the death of the Windows Registry. Now if it's a new kernel based off BSD like macOS. With something like Carbon for legacy software. Well that'd be a head scratcher. I just can't picture MS ever being that bold to dump the Registry and NT.

As for a new GUI. That's got me worried. Windows 8 was a mess. They really love to **** things up. Whether I love it or hate it. I'll have to use it. At least for a while to learn the ropes. Just so I can help clients when they have issues with a new computer. Without looking like an idiot. Not knowing where MS hid the settings. When on site.
 

AutomaticApple

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There is no compelling UI attraction in switching. Windows 11 introduces Mac Window management, the Mac dock, Mac Widgets, and other Mac UI features.
And an actual good app store as I mentioned above... :)

It might even have an edge over the Mac App Store. Who knows?
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
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The transition from Windows Phone 7 to Windows Phone 8 was necessary. Windows CE was horrendous and Microsoft was desperate to move towards Windows NT. The buggy transition from Windows Phone 8.1 to Windows 10 Mobile was inexcusable though. Very few devices supported the update to Windows 10 Mobile. Microsoft had officially scared OEMs away by that point. Nokia was the supreme Windows Phone manufacturer.

In terms of market share, Windows Phone peaked in late 2013. The Windows Store wasn't the wasteland it had been just a few years back.

Hubs were a huge benefit for Windows Phone. The People Hub is a great example of why. Microsoft then made the stupid decision to remove them in Windows Phone 8.1.

As you said, Windows Phone was the perfect balance of iOS and Android. Microsoft applied their desktop business model to Windows Phone (such as charging manufacturers a license fee in order to manufacture Windows Phones). Manufacturers didn't really have control over the software experience. No fragmentation due to ugly OEM skins!

The minimum requirements were also very high (sound familiar? :p). As a result, all devices were extremely fast and smooth when doing basically anything. The user interface was extremely fluid. Everything felt familiar across all devices.

Google is also getting in on the fun.

Office for Mac is still miles behind Office for Windows. :rolleyes:
Yeah they needed to move over, I just wish they'd held off on the rebrand/ app store until after WP8 was released, I think that really rubbed people up the wrong way and they never quite fully recovered from it being at that critical early stage...
 

AutomaticApple

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Yeah they needed to move over, I just wish they'd held off on the rebrand/ app store until after WP8 was released, I think that really rubbed people up the wrong way and they never quite fully recovered from it being at that critical early stage...
The app incompatibility was caused by the kernel change.
 

derekamoss

macrumors 65816
Jul 18, 2002
1,491
1,143
Houston, TX
I actually liked Windows Phone, it's just a shame Microsoft was horrendously late to the party, then messed up big time with the WP7 to WP8 transition which pretty much shot their chances with developers, then lost interest in continuing any development for WP8 and rushed out a buggy and unstable WP10. Given a chance I think the overall concept that balanced most of the benefits of both iOS and Android had a lot of potential.
I loved Windows Phone and it made me switch the Apple ecosystem. Had all the iPhones 1-4 had been using Macs since 2000. Went to the Mobile phone store and played with the Lumia 1020 (still the best hone i ever had) and bought it after going into to buy the new model iPhone. Had a first gen iPad and a MacBook Pro and when they announced the iPad, I was excited thinking obviously OS X would be brought to this form factor, and it was what I wanted, and we all know how that has gone. Played with a Surface RT one time at Best Buy and with already loving Windows Phone, I instantly loved it too. Windows 8 is IMO by far the best tablet and touch screen OS still to this day and nothing has beat it yet.
 
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sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,408
13,294
where hip is spoken
I'm really happy about Microsoft's commitment to ARM architecture. Apple needs some competition.

I know that. The Samsung Galaxy Chromebook has a display that can be rotated 360 degrees and also has a touchscreen. It can effectively be used as a tablet and is very impressive for such a thin display.
ah, got it. No. A chromebook with a 360 degree hinge is NOT the same as a tablet. I have a Google Pixelbook and as thin as that is, it doesn't work well as a tablet. The closest to that was Lenovo's Yoga Book (Android version) because of the halo keyboard/wacom digitizer.
 

AutomaticApple

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ah, got it. No. A chromebook with a 360 degree hinge is NOT the same as a tablet. I have a Google Pixelbook and as thin as that is, it doesn't work well as a tablet. The closest to that was Lenovo's Yoga Book (Android version) because of the halo keyboard/wacom digitizer.
I use mine on the floor. Maybe that makes a difference. :p
And they announce it like its rolling out and yet dont the widows office insider beta channel build updated yesterday and still below the build number.
Yeah, it's still being tested for stability and bugs being ironed out. Everything will be great once the general public has access to it. :)
I loved Windows Phone and it made me switch the Apple ecosystem. Had all the iPhones 1-4 had been using Macs since 2000. Went to the Mobile phone store and played with the Lumia 1020 (still the best hone i ever had) and bought it after going into to buy the new model iPhone. Had a first gen iPad and a MacBook Pro and when they announced the iPad, I was excited thinking obviously OS X would be brought to this form factor, and it was what I wanted, and we all know how that has gone. Played with a Surface RT one time at Best Buy and with already loving Windows Phone, I instantly loved it too. Windows 8 is IMO by far the best tablet and touch screen OS still to this day and nothing has beat it yet.
The ecosystem was perfect. The designs of both operating systems were identical and you could even connect your Windows Phone to your Windows 8 device through an official Microsoft app in the Windows Store. ❤️?
 

nickdalzell1

macrumors 68030
Dec 8, 2019
2,787
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I am heavily invested in just about every ecosystem out there. Android, Microsoft, Amazon, Apple, etc. I don't have any of the issues that most people have when switching from one device to another. I'm kinda glad I got into all of them.
 
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