Apps WorkOutDoors: New workout features

[brzidkibob]

Many thanks for the feedback and especially for tipping!

I may add a subscription in the future for features that require extra on-going costs. For example online route creation; more map types (e.g. satellite); larger map downloads; weather data etc.

That subscription may also provide the extra money to pay for features that would require me to hire someone, such as improving the UI; translation to other languages; and building a custom map server to enable offline routing and re-routing.

However at the moment I am focussed on the features that I can code myself without changing the pricing model: improved navigation; custom activity types; structured workout import/export; improved sensor support etc. When I have implemented those features then I plan to reassess what I do next.

It is possible that I may reassess earlier if user priorities change. For example adding the navigation features without including the ability to create routes within the iPhone app, or to do offline routing on the watch, could mean that I get loads of requests for those features. In that case then I may react accordingly and prioritise them, and they may require a subscription or an extra one-off payment.

Thanks for your reply and showing your point of view. IMO single-payment model is unsustainable nowadays (unless you start to charge for every major update - what is also a subscription, but with somewhat blurry cost). Regular app development is also an ongoing cost and given there is no real alternative to WO I wish you have as much time for this as possible

When you will need help with server (or more precisely, things cloud and infra related), give me a shout, maybe I will have some space to contribute to WO project.

As for adding routes creation on iPhone... this is huge. Not even Apple has implemented it well. I use Komoot (free) for this and simply share a route with WO. This flow works flawlessly. I am pretty surprised you are considering adding this to the app.

I keep my fingers crossed and waiting for navigation & importing workouts from TrainAsOne.

 

[cfc]

Thanks for your reply and showing your point of view. IMO single-payment model is unsustainable nowadays (unless you start to charge for every major update - what is also a subscription, but with somewhat blurry cost). Regular app development is also an ongoing cost and given there is no real alternative to WO I wish you have as much time for this as possible

When you will need help with server (or more precisely, things cloud and infra related), give me a shout, maybe I will have some space to contribute to WO project.

As for adding routes creation on iPhone... this is huge. Not even Apple has implemented it well. I use Komoot (free) for this and simply share a route with WO. This flow works flawlessly. I am pretty surprised you are considering adding this to the app.

I keep my fingers crossed and waiting for navigation & importing workouts from TrainAsOne.

The reason I suspect that I may need to include some sort of route creation is because many of the existing systems (including Komoot I think) don't include turn by turn navigation in the routes that they export.

Some systems do (e.g. Ride With GPS) but people may not want to change their source of routes. In that case I may need to offer some sort of ability to create routes, or maybe to create turn by turn navigation for an imported route.

I spent several weeks trying to do this in code by using an algorithm that looked at the shape of the route in order to detect turns. However it wasn't good enough when I used it in practice, so I would either need to use an external service (which would cost money) or improve the algorithm by using the map data. This would involve trying to determine where the route is going on the map (known as "map matching") and then use that to generate turn by turn directions with road names etc.

This is one of the reasons that the navigation has taken so long. I have spent a lot of time investigating things that didn't quite pay off, but may be useful in the future. Another area was when I spent many weeks trying to implement offline routing using the current map data, only to come to the conclusion that it did not provide enough information (which is understandable because it is designed for display rather than routing).

However that work would pay off if I built (or more likely paid someone to build) a custom map data server that provides map tiles that contain the information required for routing. That would allow me to add offline routing and re-routing to the app by using the same data that is used to draw the map. Maybe one day.

 

[FMUK]

The reason I suspect that I may need to include some sort of route creation is because many of the existing systems (including Komoot I think) don't include turn by turn navigation in the routes that they export.

Some systems do (e.g. Ride With GPS) but people may not want to change their source of routes. In that case I may need to offer some sort of ability to create routes, or maybe to create turn by turn navigation for an imported route.

I spent several weeks trying to do this in code by using an algorithm that looked at the shape of the route in order to detect turns. However it wasn't good enough when I used it in practice, so I would either need to use an external service (which would cost money) or improve the algorithm by using the map data. This would involve trying to determine where the route is going on the map (known as "map matching") and then use that to generate turn by turn directions with road names etc.

This is one of the reasons that the navigation has taken so long. I have spent a lot of time investigating things that didn't quite pay off, but may be useful in the future. Another area was when I spent many weeks trying to implement offline routing using the current map data, only to come to the conclusion that it did not provide enough information (which is understandable because it is designed for display rather than routing).

However that work would pay off if I built (or more likely paid someone to build) a custom map data server that provides map tiles that contain the information required for routing. That would allow me to add offline routing and re-routing to the app by using the same data that is used to draw the map. Maybe one day.

TBH after years of trying, I've found that offline routing or automated TBT doesnt work for running, especially off road, even with the budget of Garmin sitting behind it.

I found a far more elegant solution for running pre-planned routes is to create your own routes and embed your own relevant notifications (as route points / course points) using a tool like plotaroute.com. This is the method I adopted for following routes on Garmin and it worked for little local trails I planned, and all the way up to 24hr adventures to places I'd not seen other than clicking what looked like a good route on a map!

This is more or less how I'm using WOD right now (albeit without the route point alerts, but the "you're off course" provides a reasonably quick reminder that I've not made a turn I should have!).

Just need those route point/course point alerts and I'm happy for the next 3 years even if there's no further development!!!

 

[Dovales]

TBH after years of trying, I've found that offline routing or automated TBT doesnt work for running, especially off road, even with the budget of Garmin sitting behind it.

I found a far more elegant solution for running pre-planned routes is to create your own routes and embed your own relevant notifications (as route points / course points) using a tool like plotaroute.com. This is the method I adopted for following routes on Garmin and it worked for little local trails I planned, and all the way up to 24hr adventures to places I'd not seen other than clicking what looked like a good route on a map!

This is more or less how I'm using WOD right now (albeit without the route point alerts, but the "you're off course" provides a reasonably quick reminder that I've not made a turn I should have!).

Just need those route point/course point alerts and I'm happy for the next 3 years even if there's no further development!!!

I would be extremely happy with an elevation profile page like Garmin Watches have (CLIMBPRO), based on a GPX file previously sent to the Apple Watch.

I also find the "Off route" alert already very helpful! But improvements on navigation are always welcomed, of course.

 

[keeper]

@cfc Quick question re heart rate tracking, should the watch allow two app to track heart rate?
I use WOD but also my ebike can display continuous HR using the Bosch Flow app.
It seem very flaky or once when displayed I heard WOD say the workout had ended but it continued to record.

Are you able to confirm if WOD lock the HR data or is ur view it should be OK?

Cheers

 

[cfc]

@cfc Quick question re heart rate tracking, should the watch allow two app to track heart rate?
I use WOD but also my ebike can display continuous HR using the Bosch Flow app.
It seem very flaky or once when displayed I heard WOD say the workout had ended but it continued to record.

Are you able to confirm if WOD lock the HR data or is ur view it should be OK?

Cheers

WatchOS does not allow two workout apps to run at the same time. So if the Bosch app runs a workout then watchOS will kill off the workout session in WOD. This would cause many issues, including no HR values being sent to the app. It would also cause the warning message that WOD speaks when its workout session is killed.

 

[keeper]

WatchOS does not allow two workout apps to run at the same time. So if the Bosch app runs a workout then watchOS will kill off the workout session in WOD. This would cause many issues, including no HR values being sent to the app. It would also cause the warning message that WOD speaks when its workout session is killed.

Both will work at the same time as the flow app runs on the iphone, but has a watch app that just passes the HR to the flow app, Ill have to play further.

 

[cfc]

Both will work at the same time as the flow app runs on the iphone, but has a watch app that just passes the HR to the flow app, Ill have to play further.

Maybe their watch app uses a workout session to get hold of the HR. It would explain the voice message from WOD about the workout ending, which only happens if its workout session is killed off by watchOS. And the only reason I know of for that happening is if another app starts a workout session.

 

[cichykot]

Hello Ian, I have a question.
In 8 days, the Termin Bety will expire.
Will there be a new one, or will the old one still work?
I would prefer to avoid reinstalling the old version on the tablet.
Thanks in advance for your response.
Best regards,
Robert.

 

[brzidkibob]

The reason I suspect that I may need to include some sort of route creation is because many of the existing systems (including Komoot I think) don't include turn by turn navigation in the routes that they export.

Some systems do (e.g. Ride With GPS) but people may not want to change their source of routes. In that case I may need to offer some sort of ability to create routes, or maybe to create turn by turn navigation for an imported route.

I spent several weeks trying to do this in code by using an algorithm that looked at the shape of the route in order to detect turns. However it wasn't good enough when I used it in practice, so I would either need to use an external service (which would cost money) or improve the algorithm by using the map data. This would involve trying to determine where the route is going on the map (known as "map matching") and then use that to generate turn by turn directions with road names etc.

This is one of the reasons that the navigation has taken so long. I have spent a lot of time investigating things that didn't quite pay off, but may be useful in the future. Another area was when I spent many weeks trying to implement offline routing using the current map data, only to come to the conclusion that it did not provide enough information (which is understandable because it is designed for display rather than routing).

However that work would pay off if I built (or more likely paid someone to build) a custom map data server that provides map tiles that contain the information required for routing. That would allow me to add offline routing and re-routing to the app by using the same data that is used to draw the map. Maybe one day.

After our conversation, I took both the Fenix 7 and WorkOutdoors on two runs, specifically observing the Fenix’s behavior.

First of all, I agree with what FMUK said, and I was wrong in my initial post. Automated routing isn’t great. It works, but off-road navigation seems to be far more complex than on-road navigation. If I miss a turn while driving, Google Maps finds me another route, and it’s totally fine (as long as the road allows traffic). However, when using paths and trails, things become more complicated. I was routed via a sandy forest road that was barely passable. I wouldn’t trust this kind of dynamic routing and wouldn’t use it. When planning a route on a computer, I can take advantage of sophisticated, popularity-based algorithms, elevation profile previews, official trail data, etc. I wouldn’t risk that missing a turn when hiking will result in routing me up an alpine wall with chains just because an algorithm calculated it as the best route.

Second observation: Even Garmin’s turn-by-turn navigation doesn’t work well all the time. On a ~20km run in the woods, I often had to check the map to follow the correct path because the arrows were either insufficient or even misleading.

Third observation: Turn-by-turn navigation isn’t actually that helpful. I even found WorkOutdoors’ map route easier to use while running. This is because it’s super fast and convenient to zoom in and out using the digital crown.
However, what really makes a difference is that Garmin beeps and vibrates when approaching a turn and can show the distance to the next important point—let’s say, a place where I need to pay attention. I’m not saying just "turn" because Garmin seems to do two things:
• If a change in direction is needed and there’s an alternative path (a junction), it always marks it as a turn.
• If a change in direction is needed but there’s no alternative path (no junction), it sometimes marks it as a turn.

With WorkOutdoors, I have to monitor the route myself continuously, and if I miss a turn, it beeps. Garmin, on the other hand, beeps before I miss a turn, drawing my attention to it so I never actually miss it.

Fourth observation: The remaining distance, ETA, and elevation profile are extremely useful.

You said "However it wasn't good enough when I used it in practice" - I obviously don't know how well it worked, but even Garmin doesn't have it working 100% all the time, and it seems that fairly naive direction-change algorithm does more important work that the full turn-by-turn navigation.

 

[cfc]

Hello Ian, I have a question.
In 8 days, the Termin Bety will expire.
Will there be a new one, or will the old one still work?
I would prefer to avoid reinstalling the old version on the tablet.
Thanks in advance for your response.
Best regards,
Robert.

Good point. I will release a new beta soon!

 

[cfc]

After our conversation, I took both the Fenix 7 and WorkOutdoors on two runs, specifically observing the Fenix’s behavior.

First of all, I agree with what FMUK said, and I was wrong in my initial post. Automated routing isn’t great. It works, but off-road navigation seems to be far more complex than on-road navigation. If I miss a turn while driving, Google Maps finds me another route, and it’s totally fine (as long as the road allows traffic). However, when using paths and trails, things become more complicated. I was routed via a sandy forest road that was barely passable. I wouldn’t trust this kind of dynamic routing and wouldn’t use it. When planning a route on a computer, I can take advantage of sophisticated, popularity-based algorithms, elevation profile previews, official trail data, etc. I wouldn’t risk that missing a turn when hiking will result in routing me up an alpine wall with chains just because an algorithm calculated it as the best route.

Second observation: Even Garmin’s turn-by-turn navigation doesn’t work well all the time. On a ~20km run in the woods, I often had to check the map to follow the correct path because the arrows were either insufficient or even misleading.

Third observation: Turn-by-turn navigation isn’t actually that helpful. I even found WorkOutdoors’ map route easier to use while running. This is because it’s super fast and convenient to zoom in and out using the digital crown.
However, what really makes a difference is that Garmin beeps and vibrates when approaching a turn and can show the distance to the next important point—let’s say, a place where I need to pay attention. I’m not saying just "turn" because Garmin seems to do two things:
• If a change in direction is needed and there’s an alternative path (a junction), it always marks it as a turn.
• If a change in direction is needed but there’s no alternative path (no junction), it sometimes marks it as a turn.

With WorkOutdoors, I have to monitor the route myself continuously, and if I miss a turn, it beeps. Garmin, on the other hand, beeps before I miss a turn, drawing my attention to it so I never actually miss it.

Fourth observation: The remaining distance, ETA, and elevation profile are extremely useful.

You said "However it wasn't good enough when I used it in practice" - I obviously don't know how well it worked, but even Garmin doesn't have it working 100% all the time, and it seems that fairly naive direction-change algorithm does more important work that the full turn-by-turn navigation.

Thanks - that is very interesting feedback. It's good to hear that WOD compared favourably with the Fenix, and that the impending ETA and elevation profile metrics will be useful.

So it sounds like turn/bend detection may be more useful than nothing even if it detects bends that aren't necessary and misses ones where there is a junction. At least it will mean that you sometimes look at the map when there may be a need to do something.

The logic you mention Garmin using is pretty much the conclusion that I had come to as well. As part of my research I implemented the simple bend detection and decided that it wasn't accurate enough and that I needed to also "map match" (work out what trail is being followed) and then also look for lesser changes of direction at the point of a junction.

The problem is that I will get complaints if it is not perfect. Most people are not as understanding as yourself and if an incorrect turn results in someone getting lost then it will mean complaints and 1 star reviews because of course (or should that be off-course).

So I will start with a version that only shows turn by turn directions generated by other apps and then see how that goes. I will inevitably get complaints but will be able to blame the system that generated the route file. I should also get a good idea of what systems generate the best turn-by-turn navigation.

I can then recommend these systems to users and also see how they generate the directions and maybe use the same service if possible. Although, as I mentioned before, the use of such a paid service may require an additional payment or even a cheap subscription.

In the meantime I will probably investigate using map matching to improve the turn detection by using junction information. But that will be very much a background task.

Thanks again for the very useful information!

 

[brzidkibob]

So it sounds like turn/bend detection may be more useful than nothing even if it detects bends that aren't necessary and misses ones where there is a junction

Maybe "Signal a change of direction bigger than X degrees" and user can provide X (like 30 degrees, or 45 degrees).
This is something I was considering when running: a path in the woods is very different than a street. There is no "main" road, you don't have signs indicating a right of way. So the only strategy that actually can work in this conditions is to go straight unless a change in direction is required. This is also pretty intuitive approach.
Obviously map matching and suppressing the beeps if there is no junction would be even better.

BTW, WO has 4.9 rating on App Store. That's impressive.

 

[cfc]

Maybe "Signal a change of direction bigger than X degrees" and user can provide X (like 30 degrees, or 45 degrees).
This is something I was considering when running: a path in the woods is very different than a street. There is no "main" road, you don't have signs indicating a right of way. So the only strategy that actually can work in this conditions is to go straight unless a change in direction is required. This is also pretty intuitive approach.
Obviously map matching and suppressing the beeps if there is no junction would be even better.

BTW, WO has 4.9 rating on App Store. That's impressive.

That was my thought as well but I soon discovered that the angle is not the only parameter. You also need to specify the maximum distance over which the route curves by greater than the configurable angle. For example a 45 degree change over 10m is more likely to mean a turn than a 60 degree turn over 200m. Also, as you say, the type of trail makes a difference: main roads are less likely to bend than footpaths.

So the more I investigated the more I realised that map matching was necessary. As well as being able to identify junctions, it means that the app would know the size of the road/trail. And if there isn't a trail on the map then it could assume that it is a minor track/path.

Glad to hear that the app has a good rating in your App Store. It varies between countries but 4.9 is probably the highest it is anywhere!

 

[Jschut82]

Couldn't find the answer in the topic and on the website. So I give it a go here.

When running intervals I add a Warmup and a Cooldown (both of 5 mins)
After the Warmup the intervals starts. After the intervals the Cooldown starts.

When i export it to Strava afterwards. It exports everything and de average pace etc contains The warmup and the Cooldown. So i get a rather slow pace. I want to know what my average pace was over only the intervals.

Is there any way to export to Strava without the Warmup and Cooldown. Or is there another way to let Strava know what the warm up and Cooldown is?

 

[cfc]

Couldn't find the answer in the topic and on the website. So I give it a go here.

When running intervals I add a Warmup and a Cooldown (both of 5 mins)
After the Warmup the intervals starts. After the intervals the Cooldown starts.

When i export it to Strava afterwards. It exports everything and de average pace etc contains The warmup and the Cooldown. So i get a rather slow pace. I want to know what my average pace was over only the intervals.

Is there any way to export to Strava without the Warmup and Cooldown. Or is there another way to let Strava know what the warm up and Cooldown is?

There isn't a way to export selected interval types to Strava. I may improve the Strava export in the future but that is rarely requested (which is surprising now I think about it).

However you can see your pace for each interval type in the WorkOutDoors iPhone app. If you change Map to Intervals then the app shows two sections: the top section shows a row for each interval, and the bottom section shows a row for each type of interval. So if you had 1 warm up, 10 fast intervals and 1 cool down then it would show 3 rows at the bottom with the middle row showing the averages and totals across the 10 fast intervals.

This works for all the tabs and options for each tab. So for example you could go to the heart tab and change BPM to Zones and it would show you the average heart zone across all the fast intervals.

 

[Jschut82]

There isn't a way to export selected interval types to Strava. I may improve the Strava export in the future but that is rarely requested (which is surprising now I think about it).

However you can see your pace for each interval type in the WorkOutDoors iPhone app. If you change Map to Intervals then the app shows two sections: the top section shows a row for each interval, and the bottom section shows a row for each type of interval. So if you had 1 warm up, 10 fast intervals and 1 cool down then it would show 3 rows at the bottom with the middle row showing the averages and totals across the 10 fast intervals.

This works for all the tabs and options for each tab. So for example you could go to the heart tab and change BPM to Zones and it would show you the average heart zone across all the fast intervals.

Wow. I totally missed that in the app. I thought the app could not do it. But ofc it can!

This app keeps amazing me. Thanks alot!

 

[cichykot]

Hi Ian, thanks for the new beta. What I noticed right away is that you've fixed the display of the ranges for the next segment; now everything is there. The perceived effort after activity is also finally recorded seamlessly to Apple.

When testing without running, the double tap worked, and the training was selected as unstructured. However, it didn't work during structured training. Am I doing something wrong?

If you could manage to introduce more zone ranges, exporting from Fit wouldn't even be necessary. I've become so skilled at creating workouts, even the most complex ones, that I no longer miss exporting from Fit.
Thank you 💪💪

 

[cfc]

Hi Ian, thanks for the new beta. What I noticed right away is that you've fixed the display of the ranges for the next segment; now everything is there. The perceived effort after activity is also finally recorded seamlessly to Apple.

When testing without running, the double tap worked, and the training was selected as unstructured. However, it didn't work during structured training. Am I doing something wrong?

If you could manage to introduce more zone ranges, exporting from Fit wouldn't even be necessary. I've become so skilled at creating workouts, even the most complex ones, that I no longer miss exporting from Fit.
Thank you 💪💪

Thanks for testing. It's good to know that a few things have been fixed.

Sorry but I don't quite understand what you mean about the double tap and structured workouts. The double tap is just another option for gestures so in theory it shouldn't matter what you are doing. What command have you got it configured to invoke?

 

[Celestial Wolves]

There isn't a way to export selected interval types to Strava. I may improve the Strava export in the future but that is rarely requested (which is surprising now I think about it).

However you can see your pace for each interval type in the WorkOutDoors iPhone app. If you change Map to Intervals then the app shows two sections: the top section shows a row for each interval, and the bottom section shows a row for each type of interval. So if you had 1 warm up, 10 fast intervals and 1 cool down then it would show 3 rows at the bottom with the middle row showing the averages and totals across the 10 fast intervals.

This works for all the tabs and options for each tab. So for example you could go to the heart tab and change BPM to Zones and it would show you the average heart zone across all the fast intervals.

When I’m exporting my interval workouts to Strava, I do see the data for each different interval separately in the Laps section (= Rondes in Dutch).
Below is an example, with a warmup, a few strides, then followed by 4 6min intervals.

 

[JohnTheBaton]

Thanks - that is very interesting feedback. It's good to hear that WOD compared favourably with the Fenix, and that the impending ETA and elevation profile metrics will be useful.

So it sounds like turn/bend detection may be more useful than nothing even if it detects bends that aren't necessary and misses ones where there is a junction. At least it will mean that you sometimes look at the map when there may be a need to do something.

The logic you mention Garmin using is pretty much the conclusion that I had come to as well. As part of my research I implemented the simple bend detection and decided that it wasn't accurate enough and that I needed to also "map match" (work out what trail is being followed) and then also look for lesser changes of direction at the point of a junction.

The problem is that I will get complaints if it is not perfect. Most people are not as understanding as yourself and if an incorrect turn results in someone getting lost then it will mean complaints and 1 star reviews because of course (or should that be off-course).

So I will start with a version that only shows turn by turn directions generated by other apps and then see how that goes. I will inevitably get complaints but will be able to blame the system that generated the route file. I should also get a good idea of what systems generate the best turn-by-turn navigation.

I can then recommend these systems to users and also see how they generate the directions and maybe use the same service if possible. Although, as I mentioned before, the use of such a paid service may require an additional payment or even a cheap subscription.

In the meantime I will probably investigate using map matching to improve the turn detection by using junction information. But that will be very much a background task.

Thanks again for the very useful information!

I thought I’d throw my two cents in as well and agree with what brzidkibob wrote. I would never trust an algorithm to give me the best route for a hike. In addition to the dangers of going down a route that may not be safe or maintained, there is much more than just “the fastest way to a point” that goes in to where I hike. I’m not trying to get to work and avoid traffic; I’m trying to have a scenic and enjoyable experience. And this comes from guidebooks and reliable online sources that real people have recommended. Does the trail follow a ridge line with scenic views, or will I be stuck in a forest the whole time? Is the trail a gradual ascent, wide, and well maintained, or is it flat and then suddenly steep and rarely used? Is it a horse trail with lots of poop, or a bike trail with lots of ruts and bikers speeding past me, or is it foot traffic only? An algorithm won’t tell me this.

Auto-route is one of those features that looks great in advertisements but I would rarely ever use. Even if I get lost, I would rather see the route I’m supposed to be on and try and get back on to it using the pre-determined route, rather than to have the device re-route me to the next waypoint. Because I would have created or downloaded that route from real-world users who have been on that route and can verify that it is an official trail for the route. I’ve been in too many situations where I thought I might take a shortcut or alternate route, only to find it’s not maintained, or full of ankle-scratching brush, or goes through a muddy bog, etc.

What I DO want is the ability to create or import a pre-determined route, distance to next turn and end of route, an elevation graph, and alerts at intersections. The elevation graph is very useful for pacing myself on long ascents, and for general motivation (“I’m 2/3 done with this ascent, almost there!”). And the trail alerts are a peace of mind that I’m going down the correct path at an intersection. Trail intersections can be surprisingly tricky in places, and although the route map overlay conveys this, it’s added peace of mind to see an arrow on the screen.

That’s all that is needed to make WOD the best hiking app IMO. The second best app IMO is Footpath. This app shows a route, elevation, and distance remaining. But you have to swipe though all sorts of screens to get the data you want. WorkOutdoors promises the ability for me to see as much info on one screen as possible, with secondary screens accessible via buttons instead of screen taps a swipes. This is so important for me when it’s raining or I’m wearing gloves. Also, when I’m constantly fiddling with watch screens to get the data I need, I see that as a detraction to my outdoor experience. Needless to say, I’ve been eagerly awaiting elevation data and distance-to-end info for years, and look forward to the next release!

I appreciate your concerns about user complaints. Perhaps there is a way to indicate that these are two separate features, and not over-promise on the features? In other words, manually importing or creating routes with elevation and navigation info is a different feature than auto-route, which could be released at a later time as you work this out. Hopefully making this clear in the release notes would minimize complaints.

I especially appreciate how speedy the map refresh is on the Apple Watch (WOD is MUCH faster than both Footpath and Garmin), and the WOD maps have quite a bit more detail. Thank you for continuing to develop this app; it really is the best out there, and once we get route and elevation info, I have no doubt this will be the best navigation option for hiking on any wrist-based device.

 

[Jschut82]

I have a interval schedule on my phone. Synced it to the watch. Super.

Now i changed the interval. Changed the time from 8 to 15 mins. and the amount from 7 to 3.

On the watch i still see the old one.

Tried killing the app on the phone and the watch.
Tried clicking send in the settings.
Tried opening the schedule on the phone and on the watch.

But i keep having the old one on the watch.

I could go to the settings on the watch and delete the schedule. And then resend on the phone. But is there another way of doing this?

 

[cfc]

I have a interval schedule on my phone. Synced it to the watch. Super.

Now i changed the interval. Changed the time from 8 to 15 mins. and the amount from 7 to 3.

On the watch i still see the old one.

Tried killing the app on the phone and the watch.
Tried clicking send in the settings.
Tried opening the schedule on the phone and on the watch.

But i keep having the old one on the watch.

I could go to the settings on the watch and delete the schedule. And then resend on the phone. But is there another way of doing this?

Have you tried rebooting both devices and sending again? It sounds like the communications between the phone and watch are not working so rebooting often helps.

If that doesn't help then it may be because you use an audio app on your watch and this is transferring large files. Unfortunately iOS / watchOS only allow one app to transfer data at a time, so when this happens WorkOutDoors has to wait. The reason I mention audio files is because they can be large and take a long time to transfer.

There are a couple of things that may help. Firstly try switching Bluetooth off on both the phone and the watch. If both are connected to WiFi then any data transfers will be much faster and the audio file will finish transferring much quicker. Apple use Bluetooth by default because it uses less power, but it is very slow.

Secondly some people have reported that starting a dummy workout on the watch can help because it gives the app higher priority in the eyes of watchOS. However I can’t confirm this because I never get any file transfer problems (probably because I rarely use audio apps). An outdoor activity type is apparently best because it makes the app use GPS which may increase its priority.

 

[stridemat]

I thought I’d throw my two cents in as well and agree with what brzidkibob wrote. I would never trust an algorithm to give me the best route for a hike. In addition to the dangers of going down a route that may not be safe or maintained, there is much more than just “the fastest way to a point” that goes in to where I hike. I’m not trying to get to work and avoid traffic; I’m trying to have a scenic and enjoyable experience. And this comes from guidebooks and reliable online sources that real people have recommended. Does the trail follow a ridge line with scenic views, or will I be stuck in a forest the whole time? Is the trail a gradual ascent, wide, and well maintained, or is it flat and then suddenly steep and rarely used? Is it a horse trail with lots of poop, or a bike trail with lots of ruts and bikers speeding past me, or is it foot traffic only? An algorithm won’t tell me this.

Auto-route is one of those features that looks great in advertisements but I would rarely ever use. Even if I get lost, I would rather see the route I’m supposed to be on and try and get back on to it using the pre-determined route, rather than to have the device re-route me to the next waypoint. Because I would have created or downloaded that route from real-world users who have been on that route and can verify that it is an official trail for the route. I’ve been in too many situations where I thought I might take a shortcut or alternate route, only to find it’s not maintained, or full of ankle-scratching brush, or goes through a muddy bog, etc.

It’s for this reason I use subscribe to Strava premium (booo) so I have access to heat maps when route planning in areas I don’t know. Import into WOD and good to go. If turn by turn worked on the exported Strava routes that would be a godsend.

 

[Jschut82]

Have you tried rebooting both devices and sending again? It sounds like the communications between the phone and watch are not working so rebooting often helps.

If that doesn't help then it may be because you use an audio app on your watch and this is transferring large files. Unfortunately iOS / watchOS only allow one app to transfer data at a time, so when this happens WorkOutDoors has to wait. The reason I mention audio files is because they can be large and take a long time to transfer.

There are a couple of things that may help. Firstly try switching Bluetooth off on both the phone and the watch. If both are connected to WiFi then any data transfers will be much faster and the audio file will finish transferring much quicker. Apple use Bluetooth by default because it uses less power, but it is very slow.

Secondly some people have reported that starting a dummy workout on the watch can help because it gives the app higher priority in the eyes of watchOS. However I can’t confirm this because I never get any file transfer problems (probably because I rarely use audio apps). An outdoor activity type is apparently best because it makes the app use GPS which may increase its priority.

Sorry I am stupid. It was synced…. I changed the intervals but did not change the title. 😅

Rebooted both and then found out what happened.

Sorry!

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense and might come in handy.